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Read this: #138 - Equality in Audio Pact; Tim Davie named BBC DG; Journos out, AI in at MSN

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#138 - Equality in Audio Pact; Tim Davie…

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Hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm only man hundreds of Audio company signing in quality pack to fight racism in the industry editors top US publications quid over workplace culture and some of Britain's favourite comedies a pulled from streaming sites plus the BBC has a new digi and Microsoft discuss Downside of letting artificial intelligence Curate their home page and in the media quiz we play Your Cards Right in celebration of Alan Carr's epic gameshow today's Media podcast.

Deliciously at how is touting for work going during lockdown for hours? Have you been on any nice walks with commissioners? We've been quite lucky.

We had a documentary go out BBC3 called my mates a Muslim wish that last month and did really well.

We still not entirely in lockdown.

I'm just doing some stuff.

We just delivered some stuff for own it which is the BBC still literally brand so we've been busy over my expected to be which is always nice and it definitely feels like people are starting to take calls emails now also weather today digital editor from immediate Media Rebecca Messina is back on the show hello Rebecca on the your home style website the other day and I could lead to believe that you've had a hand in that was that your work? I'm literally added one today in fact.

It was the Didsbury strawberry gin Sicilian Lemon really nice has any other day so when we were in the office we would do like a taste test when we have the same six or seven people will try them now.

Obviously it's kind of this one was this other one woman operation so I had to drink it like four different ways to work out.

What was the best one in the name of journalistic integrity so new website for your home and you mentioned doing in the office.

What's it like being immediate at the moment when presumably still not everyone is in the office and some people about their jobs getting used to the same thing.

I think most people have now actually find sometimes.

It's easier to get hold of people over zoom you know sometimes.

I spend half a day going up downstairs at the office and you know finding the same people still in a meeting is actually easier to track people down.

I think people quite conscious of looking like they're available for calls you know because they don't people think they're out walking the dog or doing something.

And also returning to us from don't skip Media podcast a Christina Moore hi Christina hello, are you open the podcast Studio with a polling timing to either have small businesses or their self employed so that includes authors influences and they don't always want to record in their home.

So that the line is you might work from home, but your home isn't always open for business and it said that's hoover Studios for and when do you reopen it's based in Kentish Town and with a bit of luck will reopen next week.

Studio somewhere really it does have to be in zone one or two if you're in London doesn't it? Yeah, I mean it was I did a little bit of a survey before opened and most people were willing to travel much further than so let's start with you because you were one of the launch partners for the new equality in audio packed tell us a bit about that and how you got involved in it back of all the process that have been happening both here in the UK but especially in America around George Floyd and it's wild can't do anything about policing we can do something about the way we treat inclusion and representation in media for the next TV audio as specifically work on audio and so Rene Richardson

Broccoli content she works really hard with her team on setting up some five points a packed in fact so the first point is in town.

So you may or may not be surprised that even though it's illegal a lot of people find a lot of companies find a way to get around paying interns number 28 hire people from the lgbtqia plus community black people people of colour and other minority so we've had a few comments based on one of them being it should include people with disabilities and perhaps we should have a focus on ageism but we included the and other minorities within the the podcast and audio industry to include to be inclusive in that way.

That are not only related to their identity right thing that you have noticed as a pernicious habit in the industry.

You know it will say look we've got lots of black minority staff because they're making a programme about street music or whatever but not making the discussion programme for radio for my favourite.

This is joking aside there is a kind of a weird balance to be struck because on the one hand as somebody that is from another community you want to be that the voice that day stories and it's important that you are in the room and then there's always get told but like I said it's not the only story you interested in and it's really frustrating when the only work that you get all the only time people send you a brief it.

You with your identity and not to do with the quality of your work or or the fact that you've got skills and interests and and knowledge in another spaces, so you know that's the kind of honest as you know we need to do everything that we can to broadcast the sort of things that were into and content that we need to make and we like I said we just done this documentary my mates a Muslim around Daniel White Ramadan and and I'm from Emerson background and but we wanted to demonstrate that we can take that topic and make it in the BBC freestyle so that the next bus at that comes along it's like right.

They can BBC Three now.

Let's give them another area and those discussions have already started happening.

So it's good to use as a Proving Ground but it's really important that people don't just get completely silo into only making content about their identity cuz if anything else just a bit weird ok Christina carry on point number three on the five-point plan.

What was it is if you are company that releases gender pay gap?

I release your race pay gap data at the same time so some companies are obliged to release their gender pay gap there have been calls to make it mandatory to release also by the race pay gap, but what were saying to the company is that if you're going to release One release the other there shouldn't be any reason any any more reason why you should be embarrassed about the gender pay gap when you should be releasing a race pay gap.

So the BBC is one of the signatories.

I mean but I mean this is a newspaper story waiting to happen next year isn't the BBC releasing race pay gap data going to see some probably not very surprising that depressing headlines around this it reminds me of them when they released gender pay gap data.

Previously, there was a massive discrepancy obviously and that was some backlash within the company and there was just a really tone-deaf response that was basically boiling down to the figures eschewed.

Bye misses and obviously the people in the higher rolls or seen bigger bonuses, so you know we were like oh, yeah, that's obviously that's a problem that you and Christina don't just participate in panels that are not representative of the cities towns and Industries that they take place in as interesting one because you know people do you go to in the radio industry spends all over the world and thank you are aware and they that they need to have an ethnically diverse panel doesn't always happen, but there are there is an issue this idea that you have to have someone from the place where you're doing the panel.

I mean I've never seen it so it's more than the Spirit of this point is that if you're in Manchester and you're holding a podcast panel or event?

You inviting people from Manchester who creates podcast it just seems like the obvious thing to do sadly not so yeah, it's just one of those things there are some cities for instance like London where is not just about inviting London as to the any of the podcast festival or any other panels.

It's about making sure that in place as diverse as London that those panels are also diverse as well, so which is not to say that if you are in.

I don't know I don't know for whole if you're in Hull and you podcast panel that we expect you to have somebody represents Asian people and also black people if that's not the makeup of your population will not expecting but where it is fitting this is where we expect that you make a very conscious decision to bring people in from that community or in diverse areas to make sure that's represented.

I'm finally briefly point number 5 I feel like Paul Gambaccini now about who works for your company as well as their role position and permanent so this number five has come about because some who shall remain nameless some companies will put on their profiles a number of let's for the sake of the lack of a better word be a my staff and and I say that an inverted commas and they're not there freelancers who they bring in specifically for number 2 which is the only higher black Asian people and the lgbtq plus community just to fulfill.

Let's say their closer as in they have had a commission commission and therefore will bring into a freelancer just for that role.

Well if they're good enough to do that.

Production, why are they not good enough for two hire permanently if that post is open permanently ok and were expecting this packed to do as well as it has a public shaming is what has called it.

I bet you've heard I think more than 50 signatories now and big names on there as well as the BBC people like a car something else etc.

I think that's close to 200.

No we were not expecting it.


I wasn't aware can only speak for myself.

I was not expecting that many people to participate.

I really thought that it would be a couple of independence podcast houses production houses at who kind of one is the Spearhead change but it turns out in the wake of all of these race conversations that a lot of people actually thinking that we need to act on it, so I'm very busy problem.

Because there's not going to be a board is actually in control and monitoring this stuff, but there is no monitoring that we had a meeting this morning to talk about ways that we could make it I guess somewhat democratise it we didn't necessarily want to control it but we definitely needed and mean accountability so we're looking at ways that people could perhaps report things anonymously and ways we can communicate with the company's naked improve on any offences committed well done is obviously tremendously successful thing.

I should say the both of the production companies behind the media podcast PPM and rethink audio signed up to the packs as well, but for one of the things that I read that Rene said to hot pod the newsletter for podcast is and it did strike me as a little bit strong.

Pause if you have a team of 10 and 1 black face or no black faces, you are upholding white supremacy bearing in mind that you know BA my employees are in a minority in the media industry.

Not just because they're not paying employed because there are minorities in the country and there a whole range of reasons like with internships.

We discuss that getting into Media just in the first place difficult at least I can't use independent production company we do have one Black Members self we're working on getting more with employed the best people for the job that doesn't make you a white supremacist.

I think part of what the George Floyd issue has it's me to start listening like this.

Not enough is being done it to slow and obviously a lot of that is to do with authority and and policing and the issue 2 based around that but the reality is that this diversity conversation has been going on for so long, but people like me and I'm sure others are just bored of it now and if you're not going to help account and if the strongest language isn't going to be used then don't want.

Attention that just going to see it as a form of the better Frasier box ticking exercise, so I think strong language is is necessary and if you want to defend yourself against not hiring people of colour or not home people from Communities and different backgrounds.

You know it's sometimes you going to set up and defend yourself harder if you're going to be called a white supremacist and if there's a legitimate reason why you haven't been able to do it and you want to defend yourself against that then fine let's start with the most outrageous thing that you could possibly be accused or and work back from there.

Hopefully the easiest solution is going to be biased more diverse people rather an argument and Rebecca obviously this station is part of a much wider conversation that race that's happening specifically in America but all over the world but over there there's been a bit of a recommend this week for bosses who have allegedly created the toxic environment for black and brown staff with resignations at us publications.

Tell us about some of those.

To resign after the day published an opinion piece by a US senator of sending the troops and it was basically suggesting that the military should be sent to a store order due to the protests that have been taking us by Storm right across the country this had a big backlash in the New York Times office itself off and James Bennett has now stepped aside and been temporarily replaced.

I just think that I mean that in itself is really I mean symbolic of where this the US is right now in the sense that a piece that was written by an elected representative has met with such a backlash among you know opponents on the progressive opponent, but it has for the editor who approved it to stand out you know if you look at the piece itself senator cotton has since come forward and said look I didn't say sending troops.

To break up protest.

I've just said that if the police were overwhelms then the military have to be sent in which is true, but the backlash was more to do with you know somebody uncertainty made about the infiltrators causing violence and about police officers bearing the Brunt of the violence associated the protest but I do think it's like it's incredible to think that this person was elected to his office and has written a pea-sized own viewpoint and that has forced someone to have to stand down at the New York Times really just shows how divided the nation really is the news publications bon appetit and refinery29 as well.

I think this happens when you know these are sites that star stuff quite small and have ballooned in size and they still got the same people at the head of them who you know kind of being.

Managing them in a celebrated idiosyncratic haphazard way and you know it's become their personal fiefdom and there was one of the complaints made about rapport with someone who would work for him and said that he was texting her so often at the weekend and asking her to do personal errands that she spoke to HR and but it just continued because there's just no you no mechanisms in place to protect people like you might have it I can organise corporation.

It's all under the control of these units of mughal type figures to ask you about the questions that these kind of Good Morning Britain at the moment, but you know there's an important story in medial and which is the pulling of Little Britain and Bo Selecta from online streaming services because of brown face essentially there are other politically correct issues with those programs, but that's what brought it to a head with this is the context.

What did you make of all of that and also? What do you make a Jack Carroll the comedian tweeting that taking download?

Play voicing quote the real work to counteract racism.

I'm never a massive fan of of knee jerk reactions to to very complex issues.

There's no doubt in my mind and I've always had problems with with butter as a character from Kazakhstan and what that's done.

So whole country like to know what this country think so Kazakhstan beyond to be on that one.

Obviously Little Britain was a prime-time comedy we had the same thing around Bo Selecta and and so comedy is stereotypes and it's sometimes by the line of quite clearly been pushed too far to literally apparently people for what they look like what they speak like and that is that is problematic my my view the day are cultural artefacts of their time and I don't believe they should be erased.

Oh, I think that I very much support the idea of putting up cards before programming goes out and we had a similar sort of.

In The Simpsons and that character is now gone but I grew up with the Simpsons and at the for a long time it was the only mainstream Asian character that was you know existed and so you know there was a weird disconnect the iPad with a character like that and I really do feel that the deleting all of that history that doesn't really serve any value and what should be done is I think what Disney done previously Warner Bros 75th Lee which we put up messaging to say look this is an article about time and it's not effective Whoopi Goldberg did a similar sort of thing around dumbo and it's not approach is not relevant now, but we are keeping uncut because it's important to know how how that contacted content existed in that time.

I think the reason that people have been so shocked by this have reacted in the way they have is it because it's so recent I mean the Gone with the Wind argument is different because it's such an old film and we all know that racism existed in that time and we've gone through lots of pain and heart.

The fact that were talking about comedy shows that existed and we'll commissioned while some of us were still working in television really go to demonstrate.

How much further we do need to go because it like the warning that Disney plus put up for example the disclaimer is this show contains outdated cultural depictions.

It was different era politically the context is different in that.

I'm speaking for them here and that I have no permission to do so but I'd imagine that the time if you ask them Lucas and Williams would have seen themselves and I know they're both white men etc, but they would have seen themselves, so basically post politically correct comedians.

Don't they and especially since they were projecting such a gay images well, they would seem a Little Britain and it's called this is basically.

What would happen if the Two Ronnies real multicultural world that was all the character.

Just like Eddie Murphy didn't coming to America and it's a backlash Against The Blair new Labour government which is all about political correctness.

Not to be seen in the context of a kind of UKIP territory government we have now from a different era politically it's not necessarily that the ratio of any more or less powerful than my where is the Joker's interpreted differently but I think I think the the way that this has been rolled out in a messaging around.

This is what falling down.

I cannot see your situation where BBC worldwide and and the BBC themselves don't bring back Little Britain or back onto S4 services.

I can't see the fact that he's going to delete that whole year of comedy completely I imagine what's happening is a behind-the-scenes somebody a conversation with Matt Lucas David Walliams too kind of do an intro to that show that when you watch it beforehand.

They say exactly what you just said and and say that we apologize that cause offence and this is this is the time in some of it is not quite right now and etc.

That's probably what will end up happening the problem.

Is is that like they just gone let's just delete it because people are getting a bit upset and that project about image on.

And creative dogs debate about what we need to talk about which is what is appropriate on-screen.

What is inappropriate on screen? When can we make jokes about things and when can we impersonate things and how far do we go to impersonate up good part of comedy discourse and I don't want to lose impersonation that don't want to lose the ability to laugh at people and try to caricatures simply because we're too worried about how we portrayed on screen by what they look like.

We need to have that debate and not just simply go there off-limits because of the way they look that's going to be problem.

I think I would you make for Leigh Francis apology for Bo Selecta it was very interesting to me that you posted it as Keith Lemon because that's what your social media following years but he started between by saying hello Francis my play a comedy character called Keith Lemon and son you're looking very introspective man.

Did you believe him?

Remorse from him in the sense that he's just realised what he's done it.

It's quite shocking that he has just realised what he's done.

I mean if you remember Bo Selecta all the principal characters were black characters Michael Jackson Craig David Trisha Goddard Mel B all the main characters that the avid Merrion or Leigh Francis or Keith Lemon portrayed, what black characters and that is you know you would hope that there was commissioner that looked at when this is a bit weird but for whatever reason they didn't and I think that you know even keep lemons carrots and now on Celebrity which is effectively I've got blonde hair blue-eyed girls on either side of my panel and I'm making jokes about them is going to be seen as problematic in the future and and so again.

It's comedy of its time but it but I do think we need to cut through tonight at a little bit more Christina problem.

Nothing now.

I have always hated that so what shall I say the character Keith Lemon just don't understand.

Why this is on Earth or why it's tolerated by his female presenters? I just have no I I I cannot father play it both letter was acceptable then, but then also why the character of Keith Lemon is acceptable now neither one of those are acceptable for me and they were both problematic.

I suppose you playing the fool isn't it? The idea as like you're laughing at him for objectifying women and women wearing on the job, but it's on thin ice isn't it cracking back with more medium you after this hello.

I'm Jessie Ware from table Manners the podcast now here with my mum died and we have a special bonus episode of coming to you sponsored by Sainsbury's taste difference autumn edition range check it out.

We talk to the fantastic broadcaster an entrepreneur Laura Jackson hola.

how to host fantastically listen now on your favourite podcast app this message is for UK citizens between the 15th and 21st of November

if someone has covid-19 they Bleed It Out in particles particles that linger in the air like smoke, but one in 3 people who have the virus symptoms and could be breathing it on to others without knowing so when you go out where a first covering enclosed busy spaces to help reduce the amount of covid-19 party was in the air stop covid-19 hanging around the media podcast Christina Rebecca and Faraz are still with me ok.

Let's leave it now to digital journalism because Microsoft has just replaced its human news editors with official intelligence software Rebecca tell us more about this very recently.

Microsoft to run and also the news feed for the edge browser because the technology has finally been perfected and now robots replace them that they don't actually write their own content from scratch.

They take content from Elsewhere and sometimes 8-week a little bit but they even that good luckily for people like me that it can produce original contactless indistinguishable as they were the version of this technology it turns out that it cannot tell the difference between the two mixed-race members of Little Mix putting a picture of Leanne on a story of Jade and Jade subsequently took to social media to call MSM out of doing this.

I think the consensus seems to be that at that moment.

She thought it was a human error calling out the

Human editors, but she was actually calling out the AI technology and rewarding too just been laid off to see that this has been the first made a new story involving the new technology and it's me as far from the first time the AI has been involved in scandals to do is Rachel recognition the obviously was the infamous Nikon camera instant 2010 when taking photos of Asian subjects moving osted somebody blink because the machine technology hasn't been trained to recognise a wide diversity of faces.

You know you had Google photos switch with classifying prices of black people as Chimps which date still hasn't been resolved.

I was looking at this buses in 2016.

I think I had a quick look before we started.

What they did is they stop Google photos categorising any photos of as being of gorillas chimpanzees, so obviously still haven't managed to a fancy that technology so they've just put in and around so yeah.

This is so far from the first time that we've run up against this kind of this kind of instant goes to speak to the implicit racial bias of of artificial intelligence doesn't Christine it's not no human would like to stress that AI isn't necessary is not actually buy it the people who programmed it.

Who are the ones are racially biased and therefore that makes a a racial bias and programme when that's the problem if it's it's not even about the programmers.

It's just about what's out there in park.

So they will be able to be a combination of both so it's the programming of the softwares 0ai.

Engineers to behave and perform in a certain way, but then it's also asked to learn from us from our behaviour which means that it's doing both.

It's more.

I always say that I of the reflection of the society that it's been rather than a problem in and of itself and so I think that like so many of these issues.

We should probably be questioning our own Behaviour online and in developing these technologies and and those and those questions will help those sorts of feelings also for as I mean of all companies at the moment Microsoft you know who own teams and a big chunk of zoom which were using right now and Skype thing right now with the world literally talking using their products all the time of all companies.

They would have enough money swilling around to not fire a load of generous.

Computer working but you know if they're doing it what hope everyone else well.

I mean if I was conspiracy theorist.

I would say that if they can get this right for an ascending they can sell that to newsrooms across different places and Ryan and I think any publisher would kind of Johanna mean if I save loads of money starting is always a big big expense and if Microsoft can develop products that can save lots of lots of money, then then you know I imagine that they want to get that right and you know what while that sounds like a terrifying proposition.

We do have to remember that there are a lot of newspapers right now that in a lot of trouble and the Democratic values of not having any local newspapers for instance and and the fact that they're all kind of really really struggling at the moment means that it cost savings that stop being shot down is is something that is attractive across the board and there was much as I don't want to see generally said jobs.

I think there is a a market for a product that will allow.

Things like this to particularly if it is just PR shops at just been reposted for entertainment that you like the story probably was that is you know that is going to be attractive to to certain place it so I can see why Microsoft wanna get this product right and if they can get it right in their own space, then then the value is going to be it's going to be quite high for them.

So that's probably why they're doing it, but I think I really agree with what casino was saying a lot of it comes down to how these things the programs.

I mean I remember story about Lukaku and stormzy that an Irish newspaper out where they put a picture of stormzy rather a new striker okaka about his his premiership transfer just because they're both look similar and that that caused the problem then and the result of that means that there is lots of press about how Lukaku has being mistaken for stormzy in if your name and all you're doing is scraping data about stormzy and you're getting a picture all the time then I imagine I'm not an AI specialist but I imagine that those things are going to cause in Harrow

Depending on how do you program that software so there are there are problems that are built in systemic racism of and of our industry and the way the internet works.

I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done before we can create a product that we can go at market and start selling original journalism is expensive but if you don't make Costcutter this kind of curation or journalism actually is cheap isn't it? You can get a graduate who's got a brain on their shoulders and get them to look through some new sources and Kuwait the homepage of MSM important.

I know it's brand these days, but it's the homepage nonetheless.

It's got to be worth your 25 grand a year to just make sure it doesn't balls it hasn't it mean you would think so it is dispiriting to see companies racing to get this technology is obviously very profitable in the future technology out there before they have made sure that they completely.

You know any of these any of these errors which you know enormously to the people that the individuals involved with an Analyser level as well.

I mean this is kind of dollars and it sprayed arises.

You know it's a bit like the list of colour something it gets a lot of derision online but for a lot of young journalist that is first role, and you know not everyone has a kind of connections.

Are they can step into you know assistant adetoro let you know if you're coming into it and you don't have this is the kind of jobs that give me your foot in the door and people do cheap in them at the same way they keeping jobs.

You know running social media which I mean.

Obviously anyone who works in media knows that those roles are important and their difficult you know and they are going to be even more significant in the future, but it's just part of a pattern whether used entry level roles.

Are you know really do value.

I mean not saying that.

Necessarily United most challenging jobs or you know the most important jobs, but they do represent a valuable foot in the door for a lot of people with long-term value of teaching those journalist how to write copy that searching for is actually a useful skill as well and I was speaking to his head to the other day.

You were telling me his first job was basically New Year writing what time is Tesco open on Christmas day articles, which would incredibly highly but we're just you know to get hits to the website battery once you realise what people are searching for that's going to make you a better journalist in terms of truth, but he's going to make you jealous is appealing to that was the first article ever wrote for the week with the clocks.

Go forward.

There's a lot of value having a journalist not but sometimes sun journalist with some experience on on those creation platforms and the reason is is what we've been talking about today a journalist can actively pursue story.

Represent the community and that either they're talking about all that they're in and so you don't have have a sea of white faces on a platform.

It's you would kind hire people to make sure that they exercise that kind of editorial judgement because it's fascinating to have an edition of the media podcast where the announcement of the new director-general is this far down in the running order has been a lot going on but yes, we do have a new D&G of the BBC it is Davy what do we know about Tim Davey to look after audio music at the BBC and then he was working at BBC Studios so he's had kind of quite a breadth of the of experience across the BBC BBC work for pepsico, so he's got a kind of commercial head and shoulders as well which is going to be useful for the BBC particularly in in the

Switching it going in right now and with the new PCB Studios which was BBC worldwide becoming a bigger and more important part of what the BBC is.

I think there was a bit of a shock in the industry.

I think it was generally seen as Charlotte Moss job and she is done an excellent job of running BBC television for quite a long time, but I think as things have changed for everybody in every single situation across the board having Tim's commercial experience at sorry to Mr Davey experience music parents from the commercial sector from the audio sector which I think is becoming more important for the BBC and and as well as having an understanding of how television works and how independent production companies work as is is going to be very very useful particularly that negotiating experience.

It's going to be required as we get into the the troubled treacherous Waters of licence 3-week caseation more important.

You think for ASDA the Optics of again having a man in this role, you know literally 20-years.

It'll be able the next time.

Do I think it's great that another Oxbridge educated white man has got the the BBC know it sucks but like the reality is that we've got to decide about what we are involved in it but the board I've got to decide about you know what it's need moving forward from the BBC and I think the point is that it is frustrating that there are not candidates from a very small pool of of white Oxbridge that can solve those problems and that is a step systemic issue across the industry Tim Davey vs.

Charlotte Charlotte Moore all the other things are going through the big thing as well while she was a woman and for the reasons outlined was that right so basically he's commercial Mouse the most important thing for the BBC at the moment.

I think being big good at doing that job in the best possible way, this is what's important and I think if it if it was a shootout between Charlotte and Tim the ass to be what what do you need what experience do you need to run? That's the way you want to run it and I would be if I was shot or if it was me I would be incredibly for free if it was the story was well.

I only got that job because of my ethnicity and I think the Charlotte will be incredibly frustrating as she found out that the only reason she got that job was because of her gender and so we have to be careful about what the resulting Optics of that are the issue is not really about Charlotte autumn, the issue is why is it that we have not got somebody all the BBC can't attract somebody who is female who is on a different background to to do that role in to do that job and that's what needs to be looked at but on the commercial thing Christina is is that is the most important.

That is the most important thing for getting the go ahead of BBC studios to have the BBC proper at the time of the 100th birthday of the BBC the licence fee settlement making sure that audiences that migrate to Netflix happy to pay for iPlayer keeping news impartial and there's a lot of challenges going on and the most important thing is we got someone who can keep money coming in to manage the money that in spite of all those changes that have always been in the scope of what the BBC has to do.

They always had to had a challenge of impartiality so bring in somebody that has a commercial Edge I think it's great for the BBC I think they they do have a lot of competition.

They're gonna have to think about ways.

They can finance themselves a little bit better and I think that Tim Davie was a good choice and if you ever.

Stream radio on the audio side of the BBC Tim Davies appointment actually is not much surprised.

It wasn't one for me either why he was almost always like he was shaped to do it.

I don't know whether that was a case of him being favourable within the corporation that might be put may or may not be problematic but for sure he's career trajectory or gave all the indications that that was what he was going for the person on the panel who sings downtown programme commissioned by this man for someone who serves him.

What did you make of it? But he was briefly in the aftermath of the Jimmy Savile I think he's probably seen the job at it's most challenging.

I doubt things like you know compete with Netflix going to compare to the very intense public scrutiny that dropped on the B&B

But I love challenges obviously head I mean defund the BBC was spending on Monday although there was an interesting piece on the conversation that kind of implied that was probably due to box and basically going to try and overnight and that was that's obviously one huge area that does tap into a you know whether it's what's causing a trend or not.

There is obviously a very real discontent with the BBC although I didn't it was telling they have to look quite hard to find out whether the person who organised the defund the BBC petition was conditioning from a left wing or right wing perspective turned out.

They were protesting against the supposedly anti-government stance the BBC's been taking over the black lives matter protest, but you know I wouldn't have been had been you know an irate call Denise pissed off with the way that their betraying labour.

So I just goes to show you know one of the things that that baby is going to be up against and you know along with all of the

Competing a streaming and BBC News etc everything that was happening at the BBC and had covered the pandemic and how public trust has been one back and how it seems such a long time ago that the government having a go at the BBC in how the future model must be because the public clean so desperately to Auntie I did think of you for us at the time.

Was you saying all that because you did predict this on the show shortly before the pandemic.

You're on the last episode in kind of normal around in the bath and you said if this is gonna be good for anyone.

It will be good for the BBC because they are impossible news and they're going to rise to the challenge.

How do I take?

Peking sauce like that and I wonder how you feel about that now whether actually you think that just because of the new cycle the BBC has just natural indicated some of these issues and it's not just a new cyclists in the work has been done insurance in education has been incredibly valuable to parents.

I think the entertainment work.

That's been done is going to be incredibly valuable moving forward as we try and find joy and happiness out of this mad situation or in right now the representation work that they doing across the board because they're not commercially funded means that they can stick a neck out a little bit more.

I think all those things are really really valuable demonstrate for having a public service broadcaster is essential in Times Like These and you know unfortunately for better or worse what actually I'll keep up for a lot worse.

We've just been mired in political discourse of such a long time around the brexit vote around general elections around you know as we talked about earlier kind of extreme less than extreme right views and answer to have something that is equalising.

Need good strong information and scrutiny around me that isn't a political issue.

It is a health issue or education issue.

That is being where the BBC do really really well, and I think they're not having a summer of sport and music which is where generally the BBC ticks up in there in in their appreciation with audiences and still being able to kind of have that level of all in satisfaction and and trust.

I think it is a really really strong thing and and demonstrates.

Why we should be proud of BBC and continue to advocate for her and the back of the corporations asked Roger sambrook, who's currently director of journalism at Cardiff University to review its social media policy emerged over BBC journalist and things that they have posted or shared on social media which has caused a impartiality to be brought into disrepute.

There's actually he was actually brought into the role before the Emily maitlis.

But obviously that's kind of emblematic of the sort of thing apparently.

He's also been looking at by the BBC account should be using an inflammatory moments and trying to get them to go viral you know you see it after its been on you know the official account will share them as rabble-rousing eclipse ok for us.

What do you think he's going to conclude mean jumping with a bit but what you reckon.

He's going to say I'll give you a call and find out.

I don't know no idea.

What is really complicated actually it's going to be one of the biggest shoes for Tim Davie it's like the reality is that social media and the way that social media works required outrage and if the BBC going to get notice in that space in yes, they are going to clip things from from different program out of context like the Emily maitlis tearful all like the question time clip.

It's going it's going to cause problems and I think the the BBC needs to make a really strong about how it wants to conduct itself within particularly around BBC brands within that space because they're it doesn't make any sense for The Newsroom to proudly be impartial.

But then put out clips without context without debate without discourse in the hope that they are going to go viral or organic and attention and and can be part of the attention economy, and that is a problem that they need to solve Christina may not be relevant but from my work as a producer when you are sitting in The Newsroom and it's specially if you are social media producer.

You are somewhat under pressure to get the highest engagement you possibly can and so I feel like that.

That's the Earth of the broader BBC BBC2 conversation to be hard, but when you're asking social media producers to say when you're asking them to get as many clicks or as much engagement as possible that they're going to resort to and so I hope would open to the panel like what what what would you expect a social media producer to do in those cases?

Quite simple like for me.

I don't understand why the BBC feels like they need to get those clicks all they need to get that you know they're not a commercially funded organisation.

It's not like then.

You know the news channel.

Isn't there be the most popular news channel is to be the most trusted news channel and if their social media accounts don't follow the same pot plan it.

It's going to be problematic.

If you're going to go well.

You know we want our social media to be better more engaged and you know BBC shared more than anywhere else then yes, that is that you actually tipping yourself into commercial motivations for the continent.

You're putting out and can you get into the kind of Fox News territory of going what's the most scandalous ridiculous thing that we can say looking at me.

No one who socially fluent or social media fluent looks at the quote of individual say on the BBC News account and things.

That's the view of the BBC when they can see that the BBC then interviewed someone.

I'm just because you tweeted what Nigel Farage said if you follow it up with what?

Ring said that in itself is balance.

Isn't it? That's what the BBC does it interviews both of them, but it's not but it's not balance if the audience for a for Nigel Farage tweet is is significantly bigger than the audience.

I'm enjoying this way or somebody that's on the other side of the place to eat if you're not going to get the same amount of retweets.

It's not like the way that TV is set up which is you know we put broadcast this time.

It is within a package and its balance within that packaging and you can see what the debate is have your clipping Out part of that putting it online and it's part of the biggest stream of what's going on then you have to look at that one piece of content and see if that one piece of content has has balance you can't look at it within the within the Vue what had Newsnight put out across the last 4 hours because some of it will not you know we're not getting onto some of it because that's how social media works.

It's not the same as going well.

So long as we put the same amount of sweets out on both sides said it's fine.

It's the audience of that one piece of content they need to consider ok bit of sad news on.

We move on to the media quiz for staff at Dennis Publishing Rebecca used to work there tell us what's going on.

The news is that a quarter of Dennis staff which of 120 people are facing potential redundancy and of those I think the role the idea is to cut about that 6-year olds entitled going to be going very very sad news and I think obviously going to see stories that this replicated across the media.

We already saw today UK is considering what role is going to be continued as a question of when rather than if there as well as well and said haven't made coronavirus.

What's particularly you know I think it's going to be particularly effective.

You know they've got the mainstream flagship title.

You know they got the week that they've also got you know.

Myriad of smaller niche publications in may not sell a huge amount of copies or bring into a revenue but they got a dedicated audience you know you've got like pcpro and you know things are very targeted audience and I think this is I think I fortunately in the aftermath of the coronavirus pandemic and the effect it had we are going to see a particularly devastating and condos niche publications many of which have managed to weather like a prize about storms especially in recent years, but I think this might be there the final straw for a lot of those ok.

There is just time to your legendary Media quiz today in celebration of Alan Carr reviving familiar old format through his epic gameshow series on ITV it is time for us to play Your Cards Right I'm going to start you the presenter's name and the number of game shows they've hosted according to sat from tell me if a number of game shows the next post.

I'll give you is higher or lower if you.

Stay in the game wrong and you're at we will play in alphabetical order so we will start with you Christina Sue Perkins has been main host on 11 games please from the British Bake Off to one called casting couch which apparently was about celeb gossip what I want to know Christina is whether the number of game shows hosted by Sue's comedy partner.

Mel Gilroyd is higher or lower the answer is lower male has hosted 10 game shows including draw it and pitch battle is the number of game shows by Julian Clary higher or lower than Mel Goodrich is 10 less shows that's correct Julian Clary sage game shows including Mr and Mrs and the underdog show Rebecca

Listed by Reggie Yates higher or lower than Julian Clary's eight Reggie Yates and say hiya, that was the personal question when he was like a real juice.

Please like when he was young and George Lamb and at the bottom just a Helen Olly? Turn the voice if you come as a game, show is the number of game shows hosted by Richard Bacon higher or lower than Reggie Yates is 10 of a single game show.

Didn't go for hire this is bad.

No one's dropping out your correct.

Richard has hosted 9 game shows including back to reality and the big painting challenge games and fraz.

Please get this wrong is the number of game shows hosted by Davina McCall higher or lower than 9 every game showing correct 14 game shows from God's gift to the Vault this will get someone else.

I think Rebecca Bruce Forsyth host of Play Your Cards Right as he hosted higher or lower than 14.

Play classics and only 10 in this context that doesn't seem very many when you think Bruce Lee YouTube game shows thank you.

I mean I'm just exhausted by this Christina has Zoe Ball stop coronavirus and then no no no sorry.

Sorry so you're right.

You're still in the car has Sandi Toksvig host higher or lower game show we're going to finish before I think it's all after abusing their baby that means there is no winner of the media this week.

Respiratory play, I'm I'm going to give it to her thanks.

It was none of this kind of second guessing like Rebecca and Emperor's was enjoying sabotaging.

It's ok.

I get the A4 effort and Rebecca you can head to the media / donate and choose an amount to keep us going all year round catch up with a previous episodes and get new ones as soon as they're released by subscribing for free via our website open until next time keep Dancing

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