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Read this: #136 - Buzzfeed Layoffs; BBC Four For The Chop; Murdoch Misses His Bonus

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#136 - Buzzfeed Layoffs; BBC Four For Th…

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Hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm only man on today show BuzzFeed London stuff going search of new jobs TV Productions try socially distance filming that is the end night the BBC for Helen Thomas takes the reins at Radio 2 and in the media quiz we played beat the bookshelf as Richard and Judy Book Club returns to save us from lockdown purgatory.

It's all to come in today's Media podcast excellent returning guests at first stop the podcast and deputy editor of pilot TV Boyd Hilton is here.

Hi Boyd hi Ali we last saw each other at an award ceremony in a cabaret bar.

I think that actually turn out to be my last night out in London before lockdown.

I've got a riffic yet.

Would I have to spend it differently had I known that went from being an answer me that I didn't care about to be the greatest you would say no to make as we won 4-0 suddenly.

It's no longer enough to know that I've started watching Hollywood and trial by media and normal people what else should be on my watch list of London if you like ultraviolence and riveting story lines and beautifully filmed Gangs of London on Sky TV ok.

Thank you.

Also returning to the show from Radio 4S Woman's Hour and brilliant fortunately podcast it's only Jane Garvey hi Jane hello honey.

Isn't Woman's Hour brilliant then just a podcast.

Unfortunately this morning.

Yes, they do a lot with technology these days.

We're not quite human.

I quote if I quite fancy both of us.

How long will the BBC pestering you to get something that looks a bit more professional snappers in the reactor was just because they didn't think it would last and they weren't that invested so now they have to accept the fact unfortunately here to stay so they probably spent a few quid on that photo.

Yeah, I rather pleased with it and actually haven't heard the show it is recorded in the piazza, Broadcasting House in a coffee shop without Salford so you're used to work in kind of on-the-fly very different proposition.

What's it been like working during lockdown? It's funny.

It is a bit different do that.

It's really do you know I really need to write a diary right now because it's very very hard.

You going to broadcasting house and I always look forward to going and we one of the few programs still coming live from the building then when I get there.

I get a bit depressed buy it because the building is I think 7 to fall at the moment.

There's a lot of empty corridors and the mice at not as omnipresent as they used to because they used to Feast on those little bit of those lunch weather in the keyboard wedged into the keyboards of all the hot desking even miss them.

They're not there either come to the virus.

I don't know so it's actually a bit tragic and I'm not enjoying how much and it's some central London being in central London is a demoralizing experience.

It is very lovely experience that are having usually always trying to relate to people live radio the type you're doing you're trying to relate to the listeners and being there moment actually but the fact it makes it different in a strange way if you're at home.

You would do more like their lives in the area of London where I live in central in town.

It's just a poor at the super dragon, but band of homeless folk and people who work at the BBC and I'm afraid it is 28 Days Later and it doesn't do a lot for your spirits actually but there are loads of people still coming in to be a chat the security staff who always chipper cleaning ladies and men are still there you know we can't forget.

It's not just overpaid Pratts like me you are going in still it's some sorry.

I'm not overpaid am I have forgot about that? I'm officially difficult.

My own studio and it's a bit sad.

I'm please provide me some more virtual company now, but your laptop but not least of all returning camelicious be broadcast consultant and director of radiotek on an Charles I am busy helping with remote recording Avenue I'm a curious what the one thing is if you can just delete down for us that people really need to know to make better remote recordings think about what you doing first don't panic and think about your audio routing.

So think about where the noise is going into your computer at your device and where the noise is coming out and if you really have nothing make sure that you put some headphones in cos that will stop some of the reverb and feedback that you might get one of those like really common errors, but you're getting when people are saying how I thought I could have done.

It sounds fine and you're thinking it really doesn't I'm not having too much at the moment, but I think it's normally when people are setting up inside the home office and they've got kind of thin wall behind them and unlike you they have done it lots.

Haven't kind of put up a duvet behind them all done something to reduce the Echo so that's probably in my trade secrets now very fetching Cath Kidston number is actually step ladder by me a hot desert whenever contributors do them.

I can see them on the webcam.

I was so some of them.

Are you sure you're going to be able to be under that bank in the next half an hour? Have you really thought this through seems like a good idea to begin with my friend.

He doesn't do that.

He just puts two pillows at right-angles behind his microphone and just makes the microphone.

Have a bit of insulation rather than the rest of the room which is much more way of doing things ok, let's get on with some.

That is what we're here to do and well another week another round of redundancies unfortunately because BuzzFeed has announced that its operations in the UK will close and Australia to as it Focuses its us audience, so they've had some good stories and obviously from the point of view UK coverage and as for the individuals at the moment this there's so many job cuts and changes and things going on and I feel really sorry for all of the journalists are having too kind of deal with that on top of everything else.

I feel very sorry for the dentist involved his remarkable but we did manage to turn the story around you know when they started then use the Vision he was almost impossible to hear any reference to that grows without someone referencing you know listicles or LOLcats

Some good stories have they got some really really talented young journalist working for them all of him.

I assume will be snapped up within the next couple of days and weeks and you really hope so because they deserve that I am a B positive have to say did it ever make money does BuzzFeed make money is that what it's about does anybody know I don't know for sure I doubt it very much that does make money.

Yeah, I think maybe the USD operation alone makes money but that it's only seems to be the case of this they made these cuts to save money as it is economically rather perilous year they make enough money perhaps.

You know normal times to justify bills and the lolcats but probably not the new journalism advertising presumably plummeted, what kind of advertising would they get the moment be honest? I never understood their business model anyway.

I don't really understand the business one of a lot of these online.

News services journalistic operations because there's hardly any advertising anyway in that in that space, so I never understood how how it generates money 19 the focus seems to be very much unleaded bricks and bring it stories and I think almost because of the cliche of the list of course of course.

It's completely gone beyond that for years now.

I think almost the journalist walks into working hard work killing exclusives and providing in-depth great in-depth stories that I did but however planned on making money out that I don't know on that you know I think that's in everyone else's tools paywalls, you know and fight and have the some of them to the garden they had all their stories.

You know if you wanted to join you could you could pay money to them and I think it's easier for the garden to sell that kind of idea Pakistan but I'm actually still investing in the news business.

Just not here in RyanAir still going to be spending according to them 10 million.

The make from their operation this year to keep it flow medium the investors who want their money back at some point because I saw Polly Curtis from tortoise Media tweeting that it was on the phone basically but the furloughed staff won't be able to the pub together, but it doesn't it which is in the UK media basically getting your new gig as often about bumping into someone at the pub or informal setting going for a coffee.

How do you get a new job in a pandemic? Hope that's not true.

I think I think they seem to go out their way actually on BuzzFeed to find a good up-and-coming journalists or even very well established ones who they wanted.

You could provide the kind of story that they needed thinking of Patrick Strudwick through somebody was the LGBT kind of correspond and seem to come up with a relentless series of incredibly fascinating and important exposes of how gay people being treated around the world and stuff you know she went out and found him to do that job.

I think that seems to be what they were doing it, so I still think expertise if you like for journalist will be the place to go rather than wanting having to socialise the people in past hopefully anyway because with the short answer to my question away Twitter isn't it? You don't have a reputation for breaking in people find you online that a lot of somite BBC colleagues tweeting in favour of particular BuzzFeed journalist and reporter today.

So you've got a snap this guy up all this person's really worth looking at I think sometimes underestimate.

There is a real there is a genuine solidarity and monks the a lot of the media community and twisters a real help.

I know there's a lot of negativity, but they can also be it's really useful as a platform to endorse other people and help them out.

We've been here before with BuzzFeed as well and the previous round you know there was Louise Ridley we're not having some post and James ball and got Brian all of whom have been on this show before I guess one thing that does he did do quite well.

Is it allowed to have their own social media profiles and reopen the stories as always work hard honestly at the stories stories and relentlessly come out with stories papson traditional old people like me ok talking about media Rupert Murdoch has given up his bonus after big losses at news corp.

How much murdocks bonus years if you have a positive impact on a company losing 1 billion dollars this quarter.

How big do you think that bonus was does anyone have any idea? How much that might be I wouldn't have.

Also, I'm wondering whether what does this tell us something about x radio weather maybe is there any question mark over that now? What do you think about that going to be mainly in Australia there's a couple of the original papers in Australia and and earth cable venture out.

They called foxtail which seems to have backfired spectacularly, so I guess one thing that looks quite good at doing this separating off the different countries within the Empire is me without his bonus.

You say hard but but I was a bit concerned because they said that they've got cash reserve.

So they made this lot over 3-months and they said they got cash reserves of just over a billion taking lose a billion in 3-months and they've got does that mean? I've only got 3 months left of reserves with the whole company.

I don't know enough about how the finances of the whole thing works out but that lets out of these being well.

Talking about but actually for running that kind of International Business it doesn't take long before you run out of cash and presumably the pandemic.

I'm going to have a colossal impact on the conversation over the course of the next 12-months.

I mean remind advertising in terms of BuzzFeed what the hell is it doing to this organisation must it must be devastating well.

We have the are any more people consuming these more people listen to radio and haven't heard anything say that time's radio is and stopping.

It's all out at all.

But less advertising revenue coming so hopefully that that's got a balance all those little one of the things that I've done to change my media consumption habits is I've got not a subscription because I'm only taking three times a week, but I've got my newsagents to deliver paper.

Copy the times to my door because

Turn blue to my phone and I've noticed that it's not got very many ads in it, but the new subscriber.

Would you want your gear advertised around this you just not would you wanna 1.1 the demanding? They won't going to have any of the rabbits positioned in print Media next to anything to do with the virus which I think there's a road back on a bit as I think I think you know you're not but can continue counterproductive this people presented that fact that they were still advertising in now you see if I didn't have you know it's been quiet quite agile in responding and they're still adding them first of all they come to cut advertising completely and now I think is coming seems to be coming back and they seem to be Taylor and get more suitable and embracing the possibilities of these times that but I don't think I think the medicalization is.

What is kind of sold off the TV the Sky TV on which I bet you know in terms of like the streaming element of Skies NOW TV etc is probably done more and more successful in this period and the launching x radio and I don't understand how that's going to make any money so it's the intellectual property as well, but even with that sale.

I mean obviously you've got a very good price for his but you wonder it is likely to be quite helpful.

They have The Simpsons another layer on the other properties is the burgeoning play Stevie is the book you know is the streaming for it of it and he's at home well.

That's it.

Seems a lot of doing it.

It's not just about the money.

There is about power and Influence so if you've got multiple news outlets around the world across print and online and and some telly then that will say gives you some things that you might want as an individual in terms of influence.

I don't know what you're trying to suggest about Rupert Murdoch punching power and Influence and

Let's get things back on Thursday fasting because film and TV Productions can now start shooting again after lockdown restrictions are easy so bored.

This is the case of the prime minister roadmap being firmly interpreted.

You know he said if you can't work from home where encouraging you actively to get back to work that includes film Crews it's too late to love Island but it's good news for audiences.

What is better news for the for the thousands millions of people in the industry TV film industry recruitment freelancing have been left most of them not having any support from the government not eligible for the furlough scheme it such as so I think those people is really good news.

I just like all these government announcements about the allowing suddenly to go back to work the practical how the hell is it going to work or not every TV show and film can be about the world of social distancing which was seen a few of them.

Slightly depressing you no dramas talking about social distancing a rather not see that frankly so how you make a film ATV TV drama scripted show how you make a scripted show in the times of social justice.

I don't get it.

I don't see how it's going to work.

So it is it is it seems to be a situation and then everyone else to work Alan Bennett monologues sexual intimacy scene filmed in the closest of close-ups with the upmost intimate activity between people how is that going to work in these times well presumably, they might be a technical solution to these things made.

I mean you're talking about normal people the way to keep some some of the audience if you listen to the Spectacular addition of liveline RTE with people were discussing you happy with the only two have actively already married.

Yes, I'm autistic and shut decisions and also in practical terms is going to be lots of Direction on my ex is going to be lots of boom poles and one of the biggest problems at the moment is going to access to equipment because a lot of that stuff a lot of broadcasters of wanted to buy at the same time today bit of a supply issue, so if you're looking to pick your business now is the time to go into manufacturing equipment or at a distance but never occurred to me genuinely that's absolutely fascinating nuggets of knowledge, but of course is entirely logical.

There's also want to get the equipment.

You know got to sterilize it and straight down and make sure there's nothing passing person-to-person normal people which I really like would have been a bigger hit had it been broadcast in more times if you like, I think it's just the fact that all that wonderful God why I said that is itself nauseating but wonderful and everything everything enjoying so much.

Because because in some cases that's exactly what we extreme example so it's one that you can just say well.

I can you make dramas about sexy managing but actually every element of filming a drama involves anti social distancing things that make up for what I mean.

How can you do makeup in a socially distant why you can't you doing my makeup? There's no other way of saying that the when they go back to filming EastEnders and Coronation Street that'll be doing their own thing.

I also think they're increasingly going to see any starting to say well.

It does say that you're allowed to do things it closer distance if there's no other way and I think the Union as well have already started to talk about this at what point people will feel under pressure tee that they're not able to say I'm not comfortable with being close to getting shot.

What have soon.

I have seen producers of Phil certain films such as saying that they're gonna have to call.

The entire crew and cast and everyone that's the only way to get around is to test everyone with Premier League football going to create a situation where everyone involved is frequently undergoing essentially be together in some space whereby they can then you know then they mitigate the risk but I thought about an hour ago BBC news the news today.

The only one in 400 people in the UK has actually got the virus now.

I don't know how they work that out if that's true, then I feel like actually there is slightly worrying everything that's slightly bigger question depends on the answer questions of how many people have had it and how many people have yet to have it does and that's a guess at the testing anyway, so you talk about football boy.

There's also because it's about broadcast rights.

There's also a lot of Fallout around the Premier League

You explain the story basically they thought they could get away with returning to play and not having to pay fines the broadcasters don't look that way no because the contract with the broadcasters which causes the big TV contract in the world the the Premier League it's worth 5 billion over 3 years is extraordinary amount of money and they are supposed to each of the major because BT Sport Sky Amazon Prime etc have their own specific demands about how many matches they get when they show them in the other specific slots in a Sunday morning at Sunday afternoon, etc.

Etc, and of course.

That's all part of the deal so the Premier League can't they come along so well will give you all the games behind closed doors don't have the same atmosphere and I will be completely weird and we're going to have to show certain time at our Tuesday it just doesn't work like that.

So there is there is there will have to give back a lot of the money or least you know make sure that they charge as much money for the rest of the

Going to happen if a club do I have to pay back between 300 350 million in broadcast revenue even if they find a way to finish the season yeah, I understand be happy about that.

Obviously but from the broadcasters point of you.

Do you buy their argument that it is a different experience because there's no one in the stadium or actually is that facetious because you not football fans are so desperate to watch The Matches they watch it through and also I can't carrying crop hedge trimmer.

No answer so I can see I can see the other side, but I think about going to come back.

I never talk about cultural events and Theatre and cinema room missing those two and I completely get what she means but at the same time.

I'm afraid I am that person who could think of nothing better.

I'm sitting down to watch I don't know I completely pointless FA Cup replay between Oldham Athletic and Brighton I'm I absolutely that's not the Premier League with absolutely what's it like regardless of whether the weather is 1500 people in there or 55002 broadcast has dropped this approach then asking for the should I don't know whether I think they probably so many smaller football clubs are going to go out of business aren't they are you fear for their future and these are outside the Premier League here, but vital parts of Communities all over the country and weather whether I might like it or not.

They are hugely significant in the lives of people that you can get you can watch German Bundesliga football this weekend from this weekend ok, it's something.

Ok, I've got that ok.

I might give missing it.

I am missing Ford and I'm person who's summer is going to be not quite as lovely as I'd hoped as well and euro.

You know you're a 2020 and it's all gone and even claiming Wimbledon which I was not bothered about I'm going to miss the boat race that normally just really sticking with TV deals for a moment.

There's also been a resolution to the long-running dispute between the BBC and packs about iPlayer and can you not share this for us? They've agreed that if you make a program.

They can have the rights to an iPlayer for 12-months rather than 3 months I suppose that's on the lawyers getting them about with those of exclusive right to 12-months or not exclusive rights at 12-months and what that means for producers in terms of selling it to other On Demand services trying to get my head around it.

About 12 months is over that program can be sold or that serious can be anywhere in the world yeah, but the interesting part about who gets the money that is sold because that's part of the deal.

Isn't it? It it used to be just the able to sell it onto Netflix or forever, but now the BBC were going 5% less iPhone when it says after a year for the benefit of having had it on iPlayer enough because a lot of The Independent producers of the shows they just seem to have to agree to allow their stuff to be on iPlayer for a year which is incredibly long time.

It's brilliant to the consumer for the viewer by so it was a weird thing that you know great shows making any money off of DVD and being on Netflix etc.

So it seems fair enough for the BBC gonna make less money than absolutely but have been agreed in the steel those I think it will come down to the exclusivity Nanak ccgt saying because it is also about British content making a name for itself around the world and not having to wait 12 months so I found out.

People via someone I follow in Australia going on about it in the factory saying everyone needs to watch this immediately and it was I think a co-production with our to your they said he had a lot of involvement.

I don't we want to wait 12 months to export that to the bulb when everyone's talking about it in the UK so I don't quite understand how I guess not every single production will be exclusive rights on iPlayer you will not have to wait 12 months for more media news will be back after this.

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I'm Jessie Ware from table Manners the podcast now here with my mum hi and we have a special bonus episode of table manners coming to you sponsor.

Sainsbury's taste difference autumn edition range check about we talk to the fantastic broadcaster an entrepreneur Laura Jackson all about how to host fantast listen now on your favourite podcast app cast Jane boys and am I still with me? Let's talk radio ratings because the q1 radio figures are in this extends.

Just one week into the restrictions.

So obviously there are plenty predictions of a spike in radio listening due to lock down but those won't be vindicated for another three months but we can see Jane on the less in just those few days of lockdown on the stats is a 23% year-on-year for LBC am so that does show I guess that amongst escapism people are are hungry for news.

PC that does just absolutely drag you in and I listened as much to be irritated as entertained, but it doesn't matter why I'm listening.

I am listening and I think that is essentially the secret of their success that Nick Ferrari can just have me pinging off the walls within 10 minutes or 10 seconds someone is started and I should be listening program on my way into work and I'm not offering me or and his coolers are offering me of the world that I might not here in my place of work and I think that is no bad thing also I listen to 5 live still and I think I have not listened to as many podcast like me because I want live radio and I won't use and I want the very latest information however difficult it might be.

Finding that I'm listening to as much use radio as in the past.

I certainly haven't been retreating into music which I know that the ridges indicate good racings for 6 Music and people turn into classic maybe but that is a very personal thing that hasn't been what I've been doing.

I know if it's on the story of 6 Music going up and up and up and up over 4 years now people say that's sort of early mover advantage.

You know they were there they had the marketing campaign over on DAB radio people understood, what does geranium was through 6 Music at now? It's paid off you think somebody other digital-only station to the been around almost as long and they're still frankly become popular.

What is it about six music? I think they've got their own their own style haven't they become part of people being especially people who may be working at home at the moment.

It's something that people have on the background.

That's not the kind of over processed pop that you might get on other stations.

I don't think that.

Came out of particularly marketing campaign it came out of the Threat of closure and then lots of people doing their own organic and that's what really turns into the mainstream.

I also quite a lot of LBC success in the last quarter has been I don't know if you remember there.

Is this new story that was happening quite a lot the beginning of the year was it and that was the disadvantages of five live because sometimes I be a life out happening in parliament and you want to hear it and you go to Five Live and maybe some and and so LBC you need to go to be seeing it would have actually happening straight away so that I think it's also help me that you're listening to Radio at the moment.

I know you're a voracious consumer of vodka probably slightly but yes I can see a lot of podcast.

I think that it will be interesting to see what happens in the next radar the anecdata suggest more people are listening live and most people do listen to life stuff in.

But broadleaf very very roughly very roughly two-thirds of listening happens at Home in normal times and around one-third happens in cars are at work.

So when we have this quarter where people can't so much in their cars are at work.

It will be interesting to see what happens to where people listening the Woman's Hour podcast which is one of BBC's most successful, podcast is has done well in lockdown interestingly and I think that's because a lot of our listeners are slightly older but also people who might have been out of work during the day and drive to the the radio version of wings and now maybe a special time when the kids are in bed and when they finished I'm still there or whatever and listening to the program in podcast form later in the day.

I die.

I want to listen Auntie LBC listen in away like you know it's the news as lifestyle.

Isn't it rather than using shouted at you absolutely lovely whispery me or lovely Jenny

Never do any harm to anyone and it's nothing the gentle things as well that the radio for providing.

I guess sometimes we fit into that you really will be interesting to see I'm assuming that the five live in the LBC wouldn't go up another massive amounts in the next in the next Rangers matches that have any live sport in the spirit and I'm still listening to obsessively and enjoying their their creative ways around the fact that don't have any live sport.

I'm loving that I I hear people tell me the podcast are going at becoming more and more successful and popular because people looking for other outlets and so kind of as you say, it's Jane enjoy your kind of

You know I'm I was at the fortunately to go to break off today and I think I'm ok alright, but I am I supposed to be carried on doing despite the fact that my football one we getting more listens even though this rambling on with hardly anything to talk about but the creative way around that was almost more in the way of the obvious discussion of these things that comes down to comfort listening.

I mean yeah.

Just by way of contrast with the radio figures a cost which is the network but this podcast have reported 18% increase in lessons year on year since lockdown.

They track over 2 billion downloads for years.

So that is significant but I wonder how many of those downloads are all things like that Louis Theroux podcast which is in the last few weeks, which I have listened to it and I'm sure it's great, but I mean it couldn't be safer really good.

It was the BBC's biggest stars on the radio for Bradshaw talking to Mike celebrities.

It's not really a change of.

Into podcast it's people seeking something comfortable podcast of which there are plenty but when they done well.

I'm sorry.

It's still that relaxed you know by you get that you get from fortunately you get actually as well from Louis Louis talking to someone for now.

It is wonderful and even know I'd listened to it and I wanted to say is that really a shift of listening or is it just the kind of thing people want to listen to his in lots of different places now, but it's still couldn't listen to Radio 4 that the Boy George wonergirls raunchy, so yeah, because they've got a new well.

They're not called controllers anymore, are they what are?

Editors only deserve something controller you know she seems she's a real Radio 2 person, isn't she didn't I actually think I think radio to spin brilliant some of the stuff for the content.

They Jeremy Vine is getting the human content.

I love I love all the stuff that he hasn't his program.

I think Sarah Cox is just a genius broadcaster.

I think she gets it right.

I really like such a fantastic sense of humour, but also reflects some of the top signs of people having a moment to I just think it's a really good place.

I suppose if the questions but Radio 2 seems a bit harsh, but there are 1 or 2? I guess over the Breakfast Show if you're going to be really really hard because things haven't really recovered from the Chris Evans days have changed.

Always brings, I just don't like I don't want to be unfair because I think she's a great broadcaster.

It's a really good positive fun programme if I was a bit too busy and a bit for me.

I'm not particularly that of celebrity Friday thing which Chris Evans did did as well.

It is a bit too much going on for me there.

I'm not I'm not investing in that really.

What is a banana in our sources was saying that it was going to be closing for the Daily Telegraph reported.

It was so what's going on? Well who knows I think first of all I think you have to take it with a pinch of salt.

You know right wing newspapers relentlessly auntie BBC right wing newspapers with stories like these are not sure you know sources say that the BBC the Telegraph story said that the BBC was planning on shutting it down.

The channel like they did with BBC Three show BBC Steve not too long ago was an actual channel broadcast linearly as well as you've been able to watch it in your own time now causes this weird thing where you can watch normal people on the iPlayer before it arrives on BBC One later that day etc.

So was killing Eve another saying they going to do that roughly with BBC4 but I wondered because BBC4 that many original programs and hasn't had for a long while it stop commissioning scripted shows ages ago years ago comedy or drama.

So it has unit has got great documentaries, but if it does feel to me like they're preparing to do something with you before I would say that because if you look at the programs that are now on BBC Two there's documentaries about like Duran Duran and Boomtown Rats and Peter Sellers last Saturday was a brilliant show and if that like BBC Four show and I do feel I get the sense that there commissioning more BBC4 top shows on BBC2

There's a new book club show from BBC Two Fingers of one hand the the as you say the cheap new stuff on BBC4 every week, so I mean I love him don't get me wrong.

I was started when they going to bring that back as a channel the whole thing is a mess.

I don't know isn't the reason that it's a mess and people don't really care about brands anymore anyway.

I know we just talk about the controller or the head of the boss whatever she's going to be a Radio 2 where do is a big band on telly if the move really is to iPlayer basically it doesn't matter what channel does it people don't care.

I get it I get the normal people for young people in my coding coronavirus old people you don't need to call it BBC3 BBC4 I don't think that's right.

That's right.

It's not for the kind of audience.

That BBC4 has their demographic is slightly older and I think that BBC4 as a brand whether it's on television or whether it's an iPlayer only offer is one of those thing to treat people and the BBC a bit like Radio 3 is in that it doesn't actually have that many listeners of years, but the ones they do have influential and make decisions about whether or not the BBC's exist and you need to make sure that my programs to that audience otherwise you are cutting yourself off, but it was just a subcategory arts if it was just BBC arts on iPlayer will not be the same and then you can put the BBC Two stuff on the BBC One stuff that was when did nothing there as well.

I don't think there are still people who watch telly for telly and go what's on what's on the actual Channel right now.

I want to watch it and I think that it's going to be it's going to be a cell to say it.

We're going to take that offers a channel entirely BBC4 style programs remain part for BBC's output.

Does it matter whether or not there?

I'm really honest I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I have used the services of BBC4 can't use naturally have a home on BBC2 or online.

Yeah, what why does it need to happen at all but also I'm supposed to go back to the point the boys was making right wing newspaper traditionally auntie BBC broadsheet has a pop-up the BBC as a time when the BBC has arguably never been well.

It's never been closer to the nations bosom.

Then it is right now.

I mean I think it's really fascinating question about is there is it possible actually to criticise the BBC in the next couple of years in the way.

But it had been got out.

I'm not suggesting that a pandemic is a good idea to clean this isn't but you probably could argue.

It's not been bad news BBC in any number of ways and that's that so I don't sound like a cow but there is no doubt that.

I'm going to try and think of a way of phrasing is there is no doubt that the the terrible at the covid-19 has presented the BBC with an opportunity to reestablish itself at the heart of national life.

Just work for it.

I couldn't anyway, but I do think it's acquitted itself really well.

I think it's been so nimble and I'm not talking about radio stations actually, I think that stop at BBC education has put together has just been phenomenal and I'd also actually put in a word for the people who just organise the way we work in the building and my own actually my own buses splits program.

That program teams into into individual groups made it possible for programmes to carry on happening and and just based on the emails that are program gets in our audience are traditional there is genuine warmth and affection for the organisation in a way that there hasn't been for a while before it becomes the Queen Speech BBC is contact my agent can be tempered by the fact but the bottom line is the BBC's income might be affected by covid-19.

You might not think so at first because of the licence fee but there are refusing terms of international program sales there are refusing the cost of news.

There's this looming singers of pensioners in the licence fee and the BBC having to stamp the bill so there are talking to discussions about the BBC down the track scene.

Yes, that's true, although I do think.

play the it's more of a problem for Channel 4 ITV who's you-know-who facing the advertising crisis of the moment, but yeah, I I think I think I think the whole BBC4 stories also partly about dissipating that the next did you have to make cuts as you said you partly due to the pension situation all that and cutting a hole service it feels like the 6 Music situation all over again where cutting a hole service is going to create such a big rumpus an uproar Fury particularly among the audience that it makes sense almost floaters a possibility and I'm not sure I don't conspiracy theory, but I can imagine some people that within the BBC weather report in The Telegraph and see what they say what in the end of there being a big save BBC 4 Campaign although I totally agree that shows really want to BBC Two

But I can see it been making sense as a strategy to remind people that we have to make hearts and we have to cut a hole channel and BBC might well.

Go ok.

There is just time to squeeze in my legendary Media quiz today we play Beat the bookshelf with Richard and Judy Book Club featuring releases.

I'm going to give you the name and the premise of 4 books featured in the series so far or you have to do is tell me who wrote them buzzing with your name when you know the answer so bloody show who wrote this homestretch the story of a small town in Ireland hit by tragedy in 19870 Innsbruck yes his third novel published in October after the success of a keeper and holding which came out in 2016 he is also number to who wrote grown-ups the Inside Story of a big change.

Struggling to say what they mean Jane Marian Keyes correct latest novel was giving a thumbs up by Vic hope and Rob Rinder on Richard and Judy Book Club this is your chance to slime the kids books little island wear a horrible bunch of grown-ups.

Live yes boy David Walliams yes, he is on the Isle of March and is out now and so I guess this is the tie-break this is not been fixed.

This is it all comes down to this wrote the original novel on which the hit show we've all been talking about normal people got their first.

I'm sorry.

I thought it might is Jane go ahead and take it take the prize.

Then you want it for the BBC Sport rumours of a second series if they can film sex stuff that is it for today.

My thanks to Jane Garvey and Charles and boy help.

If you enjoy what we do here on the media podcast and you want to ask keep making it then why not take out a voluntary subscription you can visit vmedia / donate and selected amount to help us.

Keep going all year round and you can catch up with our previous episodes and new ones as soon as they're released by subscribing for free via our website vmedia time.

Hello, I'm Jessie Ware from table Manners the podcast now here with my mum hi and we have a special bonus episode of table manners coming to you sponsored by Sainsbury's Taste the Difference autumn edition Range and check it out.

We talked to the fantastic broadcaster and entrepreneur Laura Jackson all about how to host fantastically listen now on your favourite podcast app.

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