Read this: 26/11/2021 Radio 4 Feedback

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts next week the trial begins in the United States of Gullane Maxwell she's accused of taking Minors for her former lover Jeffrey Epstein who sexually abused them last Monday the world at One interview have brother who is campaigning in her defence some of your report that decision has BBC News lost his marbles is moral compass in feedback this week.

I'll ask Waters editor whether she gave Ian Maxwell a platform to promote his sister's cause hand as UK covid cases remain obviously high should Radio 4 you and yours have given their time to anti-vaxxers who made claims that we're not fat checked on a fluffy elephant you probably did more harm than good in terms of propagating fake news rather than taking a hard line on stamping it out and we've given out of your comfort zone list.

Complex fraud case to discuss this week was it a who dies or widen it and my dad we got a real insight into what's Anna it was like growing up and maybe a bit as well, but do they actually enjoy the fake heiress podcast and will they go back for more find out later in feedback?

On Monday the trial begins in the United States of Gullane Maxwell the daughter of the late Media Mogul Robert Maxwell it scheduled to last 6 weeks.

She's accused of trafficking - former lover Jeffrey Epstein and she's also facing charges of sex trafficking conspiracy and allegations of perjury does Maxwell has been in a New York jail since her arrest in July 2020 the former socialite has pleaded not guilty to all charges last Tuesday on the world at one Sarah Montague interviewed her brother Ian Maxwell who claims that you interested in his sister's case will jeopardize any chance of a fair trial here's a clip from the interview that wants she groomed girls for abuse by him.

She was present and involved in some of this abuse these are the charges and the purpose of the trial was to find out if those charges stand up.

I'm not here.

Go against the accuser to talk about innocence and guilt that the reason that I think this is a difficult process is because of the way in which the authority have chosen to proceed against my sister and to lock her up in isolation is wrong.

It isn't a beautiful human rights and an abuse of the due process that has taken place Jeff wood has BBC News lost its marbles its moral compass why on earth is a news program being used as soap box to defend a child abuser which is the media establishment is colluding to defend the indefensible why on earth is a BBC doing this Deborah Bennison a 12-minute interview with Glenn Maxwell brother to kick-off the program.

That's the most important piece of news of the day who exactly is making these editorial decisions, it's not even.

Tall is it surely the story about how to pay for social care is just one example is far more important affecting millions of people in this country.

How about kovid 5 Wisconsin 5000 new homes being llandingat risk signs for flooding BBC news for seriously lost its way from Twitter would you really give airtime the family of any other defendant on similar charges well, I'm delighted to be joined by Natasha show us the editor of the world at One why did you want to do this? We think there's a lot of interest in the case of Gullane Maxwell and it's due to start on Monday I'll planning team who put in a bit for an interview with Ian Maxwell and green to do it on Monday morning with us and we thought that would be a good way of looking at head to the trial which was due to starting a week's time, but you accept that it was a public relations campaign.

Was involved with and that he tried to use your platform to promote his cause which is the Da sister at the very least is unlikely to have a fair trial and has been kept in inhuman.

Conditions and he is job breakdown to say we didn't actually get into the inhuman conditions so much we felt that has been done in other interviews and we were more interested in talking about whether or not the trial was going to be conducted whether she was going to testify the support.

She was getting I don't think we gave him a platform.

I think Sarah did robust interview where she asked him.

You know what the other side of the story was but you wasn't actually able to tell us what the other side of the story was so that's why you did decide to interview him, but a lot of Iris Ministries sample devil Innocence as well hold on could you put in this into at the top of the program and arrange other important issues that there was of course the prime minister speech to the cbi the word his difficulties he was having over.

Can number brother stories that were running? Why did you put that one at the top? That's really good Christian the order in which we present the stories is a matter of debate within the office but actually the team felt having listen to the interview because it was pre-recorded that it was interesting that it did feel like we were hearing things that we hadn't heard before so what was Fresh what you get out in your interview that hasn't come out elsewhere.

Do you think so why you think what we got out with the Maxwell family? I suppose felt that anyone associated with them was being cancelled.

He so he didn't it's that he would like to hear her to take the stand that he would like to hear her testify.

I was also interested in the fact that he hadn't had any contact with her since she is imprisoned at all.

So everything we have heard from the Maxwell family has come via intermediaries via lawyers, so I think there was enough fresh in it and it was certainly picked.

Our website and other news organizations, but I think that's the team on the day felt the other contender for the lead with social care, which we did cover thoroughly, but it was so hard quite a good outing on the Today programme that morning and we do have a lot of overlap in terms of our listeners, and it didn't feel that the story was going to move until the later that night so I think while we felt it was interesting and explored it with Mel stride.

I think we all felt that the Maxwell interview was the most interesting thing we had for listeners that day and I do accept that not everyone will agree with that but it was actually unanimous decision within the office.

You've heard criticism of course of this interview in the view of some violence was too long, but the problem maybe a lot of pregnancy it is too short people got cut off and it's better for you to major on something.

Do you think you're consciously try and do that on the world at One do longer interviews greater?

Interview I think that's a really good and I think it's certainly something we should look after the program because I think there is something about the interview form.

That is changed over the years and we quite often cut things off too quickly and there is something about The Craft of an interview of shaping and allowing someone to hear an interview develop that I think is something that would be enjoyed by listeners and um.

I think it does depend on getting the right person and having the right story in order to do that.

I didn't could do that with every single gas, but I do think it's actually quite engaging and taxing to listen to an interview which doesn't feel too breathless, but in this case 12 minutes on here and Maxwell a little too long possibly.

It's always hard to know exactly the right length.

I think listening to it beforehand it felt right at 12 minutes, but sitting listening going out on our it.

Did feel possibly a couple of minutes too long and defend 10-minutes.

I think maybe 12 minutes was a little too long and finally just to make it clear.

They weren't any legal problems were that I'm in the trial is taking place in another jurisdiction, but if the trial had been taken place this country.

You wouldn't have run that interview with you.

I think it was a bit of very very difficult interview to run and obviously any interview about case we would get one of our in-house lawyers to listen to anyway all about deadlift.

Have done legal training but you would want an expert opinion on this and even a case which is taking place in America we did run the interview pastor lawyer just to check that he was completely he was completely happy with the interview ahead of time.

So yes, but that is it makes it much easier to do an interview about the case which is starting abroad then about a case that would be starting in this country on the basis that even though your programs incredibly popular the jurors in the United States are unlikely to listen to it regularly.

I think the chances are low.

I think the risk is low they decided in this.

Thanks to Natasha Challis editor of the world at one and please do let us know your thoughts about that interview or anything else to do with BBC Radio and podcasts.

This is how you get in touch you can send an email to feedback at bbc.co.uk alright.

The address is feedback PO Box 6723 London se1p 4ax you can follow activity on Twitter by using at BBC R4 feedback or you can call us and leave a phone message on 03345 standard landline charges apply, but it could cost more and some mobile networks all these details are on our website each week, we asked to BBC Radio listeners to step out of their comfort zones and listen to us.

I wouldn't normally be on their radar this week.

We have two people one of them's a recent convert to Radio 2 and another who is all apps listen to Radio 2 and 4 but listens to SE6 welcome to Agnieszka Patrick originally from Poland and now living in London and Serena jesudason from Leighton Buzzard in Bedfordshire what sort of things normally listen to I listen to any kind of music I like pop music any life music Latin music Ready something live and whatever you Serena what you'll probably a bit more alternative like alternative indie Punk some metal but also like some folk, so yeah bit more Radio 6 and he said OK when we left you to listen to episode 1 of a podcast called fake heiress there were six episodes with only how to do listen to the first and it was about The Rise and Fall of an Adele

Who conned New York High Society into believing that she was a multi-millionaire Harris is a clip the founder and creative director is Anna delvey German royalty remember.

I just remember she fall on a private jet.

How would you describe the program explain? What is well? It's a bit of a Mix through the of bit of reporting and dramatisation about this Russian I think socialite fashionista coming getting a magazine internship and then you know pretending to be someone she was on and bluffing her way into my 30th was that obvious from the first episode in which case you wonder how they going to make it last.

What is it going really clear at the beginning what happens if that she did swindle everyone so yeah, you're quite right.

So this wasn't it? Wasn't who done it or what done it was it a while a bit of a wider bit we got a real insight into what it was like growing up and what inspired her.

Maybe he done it as well agnesgate.

Did you see the drama work because when documentary and dramas mixed together the documentaries ok and the drama Sam's cabs not as professional.

Do you think this was well done that to be honest with you? I've listened to this kind of drama on the radio for the first time and I was surprised the way it's been done it because I was expecting more just to be like oh dear like you listening to the book but it was really surprised done well explaining of the situations people speaking with different accents different voices background music as well.

I thought the music was very good actually those.

Music and the production was good.

Yeah, that's true.

I think she could make her lies a reality I think she did this sometimes a danger in these things as they say that we are glamorising the BBC still glamorise in crime and that you really want the criminal to get away with it.

Did you feel Serena that central character was glamorise told I probably wouldn't listen to the she was so unlikeable from an early age.

You know they didn't really seem to be much going on in there to be the problem with 6 programs is that you can make up the story on Wikipedia or somewhere else and find out what the story is they couldn't find it ways of trying to cook you.

Would you go on to listen to more? This is what exactly happened with me today.

Trying to listen to The Next Episode and I will say intrigue actually and I want to find more and more and more and to get to the end of the story so yeah again the successful said podcast depends on the presenters in this case we had Vicky Baker and Chloe Moss didn't they did a good job.

Sorry.

I didn't actually I thought they were very clear very presenters try to make it a bit of fun.

I think so yeah.

I did think they were very good very good.

Go and listen to some more than I think we know paps that one of you will I'm not sure about you Serena you can listen to anymore.

I don't think it was for me.

I didn't find the story as perhaps and I just didn't find any other characters like enough to be invested in them to be honest and does this mean that you were out of your comfort zone or not definitely out of my comfort zone.

Actually, I've not really listen to anything that had that form up before and I think perhaps of a different story CD perhaps the murderer or something.

I'll be a bit more interested and go to the question.

Whether you were out of your comfort zone Agnes covered.

Anyway you tell me yeah, I will definitely recommend to a friend because it's interesting intriguing.

I'm not really fun of me now murder dramas, but this one was definitely my cup of tea, but finally one of the problems with podcast is that you can't get in a pic of a copy of the radio Times and see when it's on I mean one last but somebody says to strengthen go and get it anytime but do you think you just found this podcast if we haven't pointed you in the direction of it and I don't think so no because quite a new to radio and I just started listening so probably if I didn't come across.

I wouldn't listen.

Just someone will recommend it to me probably.

Do you that you're more likely to find programs in as you were broadcast schedule, then you are to try and look for them.

Well.

You don't know what you're looking for in that sense mean in the podcast.

I listen to a lot of what's out there.

So it's quite hard 250cc usually go to something if I know the presenter if there a well-known comedian or actor or something and I probably wouldn't have even stumbled across this one ok? Well, Serena and Agnes get thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

The number of covert cases remains stubbornly high and in Northern Ireland and mainland Europe further restrictions have been introduced while Austria has just begin its fourth covid-19 lockdown.

There is overwhelming agreement among scientists The Vaccines help reduce your risk of getting seriously ill or dying from covid-19 and reduce your risk of catching or spreading the virus yet some still refused to be back soon ated last week the unions consumer program focused on the reasons for vaccine hesitancy among around 3% of the population the programs regular calling addition to get in touch if they were hesitant or have been hesitant and then change their minds.

This is how some of you reacted to the programme John Roberts from Oxfordshire I had to switch you and yours off this morning when afraid of the polite and mild-mannered Academic doctor were allowing such obvious people to be started without the vigorous.

Deserved this disease has killed thousands and thousands of people and continues to do so this falls and navs with their conspiracies and faith in natural healing and whatever needs to be told where to get off for the second the rest of us this was an opportunity to call out their nonsense and opportunity missed is suggesting is that we're not being honest about how serious some of the reactions to the vaccine can be so I can't comment on individual cases like that.

We remember the yeah.

There will be some people who get reactions to Vaccines especially when you put it into tens of millions of people but I think all people so forget is the not getting vaccinated can have side effects and we call that disease and that can be pretty devastating it can of course be fatal as well, when is Peter washer?

I was really shocked and angry there was no fact checker live on the programme who could have defend the lies of the colours in it would have been cleared in advance for a program like that.

They would have been conspiracy theories accepted being propounded so fat Chequers really should have been lined up to be on hand of scientists are trying to stop the vaccine for propagating conspiracy further contested planes and the response from the presenter was I haven't got a fact checker here etc.

I just thought it was really weak.

You know there is lots of scientists trying to get this no way of checking that information live on there, but I do know when I made a documentary in Bradford that was an awful.

Lot of fake news about a lot of postings online for play me to work in the hospital.

It didn't work in the hospital at all.

It should have been tackled underbank then and there and I would hope that our future programs all of those will be addressed.

I thought the programme with fluffy and I think you probably did more.

Good in terms of propagating Judith Vickers Surrey I'm sitting here in disbelief that this program is continuing to be aired this Tony has been hijacked by anti-vax is actually doing more damage by emphatic encouraging people not to take up the vaccine production team is a lot to answer for this poor and potentially damaging programme David Gledhill I've been unhappy about the pro vaccine coverage by the BBC but was very pleased at last on you and yours are well balanced discussion where informed NHS staff with an Elder length to keep their concerns not all of which could be dismissed by the resident expert I've admired the BBC in the past for their balance but prior to the programme the vaccine coverage seems to have been a bit of Yorkshire from that.

I really think there was a bit of risk in people overestimating and trusting in the benefits of Vaccines to the exclusion of other measures No 1 from the BBC

Is made available to discuss these concerns but they did provide us with this statement this was a live show and the presenter repeatedly stated.

It was not possible in the moment to address each of the coolest claims live on air and the conversation was brought to a close swiftly Dr Simon Clark and other colours were referred to throughout the program to provide more factual information john-richard error former comptroller of editorial policy at the BBC and a former trustee of The Corporation Richard should you and yours have done this subject matter what no criticism at all of the presenter who sounded at times and a very significant pressure, but it's not good enough Frankie for the BBC to say now that it wasn't auto address all of these listeners concerns on are this wasn't the case of giving a platform to flat earthers where they can say what they like without any risks that are going to hurt themselves.

Falling off the edge of the one or two of these Colours only one or two but that doesn't diminish the challenge one or two of them made unsubstantiated claims that might well scared listeners into avoiding The Vaccines all together putting their own lives at risk and those around them this was an entirely foreseeable problem and it should have been foreseen by the beach so you not opposed in principle to having the voices of anti-vaxxers broadcast indeed, you could say they have a right to appear somewhere, but you could do the organs with any allegations court claims of Factor made.

You got to have somebody on the programme who can immediately deal with those claims and if they're false show them to be fair.

That's absolutely right.

I think the program itself said that only about 3% of the population are now what you might call vaccine desires, but of course 3% is a significant minority and it's a principle that the BBC should give a voice.

Minorities and not just to majority, isn't you and I are old enough Roger to remember in the late 1950s the increasing scare about the effects of the drug called thalidomide nothing upon birth defects and people were showed that there was a problem.

There was a problem and as a result thousands of people around the world were born with terrible manatees, so the voice of minorities needs to be heard but things have changed a bit in the last 5060 years not only is there are now a very very rigorous and independent approval process for medicines across the developed world, but there's also that thing called the internet and anyone is now able to read scare stories and pick up and sometimes believe facts without checking for themselves so Richard of the principle of having minority views on there is one that you'd have to defend wouldn't you but when it comes to those minority view?

Making apparently factual statements which of false that put quite a big burden on the presenter on a live programme doesn't it well we all know that the overwhelming majority of scientists in this field around the world support the use of these Vaccines to combat the pandemic, but it's always possible of course to find a scientist who has a Country View and one of the calls to this ground cited for a distinguished scientist called the Luke Montagne who he said had one and Nobel Prize as indeed.

He had and the caller client at Montagne wanted the vaccine lights well.

It's not actually true look Montagne did indeed get a Nobel Prize more than 40 years ago for his work in identifying the AIDS virus.

He's now coming to 90 years old and he believes that the Covered virus was invented in a laboratory by scientists.

He hasn't said that the vaccine doesn't work but he's be

A favourite of American conspiracy theories website because he questions the origin of the virus.

He doesn't have the vaccine but there was no one in the studio to correct audiences that allegation and that's a big problem Big Brother presenter whose dealing with the line phone in who has two presumably therefore her producer has to know all the play if you like covid-19 be raised and make sure they have all the factual detail to refute it.

That's a big call.

Is it really possible to do that if it is impossible to do that do you say this is not a program which is suitable for a live phone in on this subject well, this was entirely foreseeable in a live programme it seems to me that the ways that you can address this you can either fill the Studio with a team of BBC fact check as the BBC has them.

They're really good at their job and those people could be hitting with keyboards, when.

Unsubstantiated allegations are made and can then live themselves give an answer which puts those allegations into their factual context you could do that or you can pre record that part of the program in which listeners call in make whatever claims they wish and then when you decide which ones to broadcast you can also accompanies bottle if that rebottle is appropriate.

Well.

It doesn't agree with you because if you look at that statement it actually is basically a defensive what happened.

Do you think this is a classic BBC weather in which is it put out a statement to defend the organisation but quietly they get onto the editor and make sure he she doesn't do it in the same way again.

I think it's extremely disappointing that the BBC isn't a part in this program because this was a laudable aim.

It's right for the BBC to give a voice to minorities addressed properly it is possible to Broad

Stephen the most bizarre claims and then put them in the context of known reality the BBC should be willing to come on here and defend that and recognise that on this occasion it fell short and may have caused real concerned to some of your listeners are thanks to Richard at former comptroller of editorial policy the BBC and a former member of its governing body and that to feedback for this week next week will be talking to Radio 2 head of station Helen Thomas responsible for Zoe Ball and Ken Bruce someone many many others so please do email in with your questions for her until then keep on keeping safe goodbye.