Read this: It's... another true crime show!

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 crime and true Crime has always been big business in films and books when cereal exploded onto the scene almost 8 years ago it launched a whole new the true Crime podcast and who could predict just how big it would become now with the broadcasters and streaming services all involved.

It seems like we've just can't get enough of solved and unsolved crimes and it's not just criminal cases this we seen the insatiable interest surrounding the wagatha Christie verdict and now with TV cameras allowed into criminal courts vitaplus the UK we're going to take a look at how the public appetite for clear.

Punishment has led to one of the biggest production dreams in years and the last what does increased Focus can mean for victims and their families so let me introduce you to my destiny day.the investigative reporter and former detective Mark williams-thomas suitybot co-host of The immensely popular red-handed podcast featuring an incredible range of places and unusual mysteries from around the world will hanrahan co-founder of first leap TV production company that specialises in True Crime Persephone bridgman Baker a lawyer who specialises in media lot for the firm carter-ruck and Abi Clarke host of the it's wagatha, Christie podcast and also a huge true Crime fan, Abbey wagatha.

Wasn't really true Crime reliable case you treat a bit like a who done it.

Why do you think people was so fascinated?

I mean first and foremost.

It was a social crime.

I think we can all say I think it was it was similar to true crime in that sense of getting access to information.

We don't usually get access to like if your friend leave their phone out your you're not allowed.

You're not meant to go through their messages for example, but we were given this case about two well-known and the DM was read out in call and we all got to hear them and we got an insight into it every step of the way, it's it's a real Social to do that go for the people's phones and Diaries and hearing their private conversations, but later will hanrahan of first look TV I want to come to you first because I had a quick glance earlier at your title from the meet marry murder killer Britain Close The Ladykillers inside the mind of a serial killer 10 steps to murder.

I could go on there were quite a few.

Would you agree when a boom period for 2.5 years and could possibly be said in fact to go back to Syria the podcast which she mentioned earlier and we don't tend to think of it as a boom time as such we tend to think that were doing a purposeful job in some cases.

We may come in the series that we've also just start to make my lover my killer Netflix is an example of but yeah ensure we are certainly across the world mind not just in Britain enjoying enjoying give you will countless hours a true Crime why do you think this one? Is it is it is expanding at the rate that it is like a story.

I think ultimately when you tune in over to a podcast or watch it true Crime our you are watching a story with a beginning a middle and an end and that's a really important.

Because all of the research that we've got suggests that true Crime viewers want to know the bad person has been arrested and locked up that resolution is an absolute need for us each episode that we put together so the first thing is people like a story and the second thing is people like to be forewarned forewarned is forearmed at watching this might save me protect me from future scenario that I can't at the moment predict what might be out there, but there is I think it's really important nose and how we tell the stories because we tell the stories in True Crime with our sensibilities, so we've actually taken from two different platforms the podcast platform which tells it a lot of stories in real time but also goes to two areas where we didn't and secondly we we take from drama from all of the of the huge number of drama titles going all the way back to Moss all right up.

What's all of the prime brokers in the Crimean war programs that we watch and if you look at those programs they suspend what's going to happen next they keep you guessing as to what's going to have a nice day.

Take you on a roller coaster of emotions and they also intellectually engage with you as to the twists and Turns of detective story and what we have done in True Crime many bus is the clothes sensibilities and apply them to how we tell our story so in the sense that yes, there is a boom in True Crime and that's really taken off in the last year's what I think is part of that is like the story arcs we bring to them and the same question marks about the morality of that which I discussed all the time internally at this end with our team members but that I think it's quite successful you mentioned story at can you mention you no beginning middle and end let's play because your true Crime podcast it's immensely popular, but it doesn't always have an Ending but what I'm

As you enter this market as a relative more than 6 years ago when you have no background in in crime or criminal investigation why on earth did you pick you crying as something to podcast about I think you're being incredibly generous to say that we were evaluated novices.

I think we were absolutely nobody in the world of true Crime no background in anything to do with the criminal justice system and the reason that my car is Stan and I was drawn to true Crime is the many of the reasons that will just outlined the reasons that listeners tune in every single week.

I think that there is an obsession with the extremes of human behaviour.

I think it's stretches beyond true Crime I think it's the same people like to watch botched or things like that is how far are willing how far are people willing to go with various things and I think nothing speak to that as much as true Crime

Wraps into it so many of the things that make us human for example family love lust greed is all of these things that we can all identify with but the stakes are the highest they can possibly be because it typically ends in somebody losing their life and I think it's that high Stakes and and that compulsion to understand extreme behaviour and so I think to some extent a biological addiction to fear.

I think that fear is one of the most powerful emotions that we can feel.

I think we are biologically hardwired and some seek it out in an odd way and I think true Crime particularly podcast they allow you to dip your toes in to some of the scariest things that a person can possibly imagine and then it allows you to turn it off after an hour or so and walk away and just go back to your normal life and I think it is that proximity to the ultimate most.

Can you can imagine but doing it from the relative safety of your house is what I said compelling.

I mean I guess it does it taps into very primal guttal Instincts that we don't want to bring you in here because in many ways your veteran in this area.

You've been investigating and making programmes about some of the UK's biggest criminal cases since well before this documentary exposed Jimmy Savile it launched operation Yewtree what do you make of how the stronger has evolved and expanded does it feel different now as I think that Netflix are really taking a grip of me true crimes on a course we got making a murderer which was quite landmark in the way that it was put out there couldn't broadcast on British television because of the rules in terms of icon was ever so one-sided it was no balance in any way at all, but it did.

Open up this whole insight into working with those accused and and brought it to a huge audience and of course we had more recently American murder the family next door which I think is probably one of the best true crime documentaries.

I see from very long time.

It was simple it was made over an hour or 90 minutes and it was just simply using footage of and we are now in a position where basically have so many platforms if you go back years of course there was only BBC and ITV we now have not only all the terrestrial platforms will we have all the social media platforms? We have YouTube we have all to the satellite station, so there is an awful.

Lot more need for crime drama to be able to satisfy what we have to look at and willies is a very good expect.

This is how we provide to the different audiences, so we now have podcast audiences of course no Zara

Different today's and watch terrestrial TV so what is it we can provide to them? I come with a very very strong head which is we always have to consider making programme about what the impact of that is on the victims.

I think sometimes different audiences in different platforms because you know you are having done big national stories.

You've just taking on a new role as global investigations editor at the regional public newsquest, how much will true Crime be playing a part in your work? There is where investigation start which is when you start so they picked up by the national you will come by regions because that's where the crime occurs and what I wanted to do it.

Work with those Media journalists get them up to a level where they become invested jealous and enable them to be able to create the story so I'm not coming in there to take in a high-profile role that I have is about supporting them.

It's about enabling them to up their production values and go looking for those stories that perhaps they haven't quite been able to tell and get a threshold and also to go visit those cases have happened in the past to be able to pick up and develop them further so I'm hoping that I put newsquest really on the market in firms providing true Crime content because it is an absolute fascination and the public and when we did the investigator the review were done in relation to mass and some of the survey that would produce the roundabout 60 20% on women who watch True Crime and in fact.

I speak at the true Crime conference.

We will I do want to be rapidly everyone's getting in on it people want more of it but at the centre of it.

I'm very vulnerable people and you know in some cases.

We have again and again and again.

Will will it comes to making a series like meet marry murder took us through the apical process you go through you know is there one or gosh it's the first thing we talked about we have a raw which is that we won't tell a story unless we have the victims families permission we break that rule but we really do that.

There are occasions where another criterion was used which is the interest and sometimes sometimes we not often but we have actually decide to go out with broken without necessarily the support of the family but by large.

We ask ourselves meet my mother is actually.

the case of Wight biggest it is likely that it's a frightening statistic this but a woman who has been killed is most likely to have been killed by the person she sleeps with so it is your partner if you're a woman that you should be most concerned about and what has happened over the last 10 years unfortunately is that there has been a diminution like it resources available to police forces but also social services organisations which means that they have not been able to monitor with intense scrutiny domestic abuse in quite the way they have passed whether it's never been properly monitors and what that is lead to is failure to recognise the escalation of violence and domestic abuse with can terminate a murder and grew actually out of home office study, which pointed out run magnificently LED by Lady call Jane monckton, Smith Gloucester University and we took her 8PT

Very clear 8-step process which can be recognised in all intimate partner murders and if you will if you know about these a 8 red flags you can jump out of the Terrible cycle of violence that you're facing and based on that we decide to make a series called meet marry murder and in doing that we impose the rule we must get the fox say family members as possible to do that, but that's what we try to do.

See you said that's all that you tried very hard to achieve I guess you.

Don't you don't face quite so much in your podcast.

What are the ethical and legal considerations for you given that you're doing a podcast series that you had a listen to a couple of episodes that sounds very much like to go down the pub at home discussing what you know what they've read on the internet and looks absolutely very clear from the start always is that we are not.

Back to get it podcast we are a storytelling podcast were using information.

That's already in the public domain and we do very much what we're saying we package it up in a way that were telling a drama story and so yes absolutely their ethical concerns and but we don't interview families of victims that doesn't come into our calculation, but I would say is thank you over the nursery 100 episodes that we've done.

We've only ever had family members or victims themselves or anybody involved get in touch with us to thank us for covering that case and bringing publicity to that rather than anybody ever get in touch quarrelling with anything that we've done but I think that the Challenge for podcasting is that it is so unregulated compared to other more traditional Media so you can only be you can only set your own standards as an individual podcast and what you feel comfortable doing and the line that Hannah and I would draw is making accusation.

People who have never been convicted obviously will point the point the finger where the evidence leads us but making out right claims things like that.

It's a very dangerous thing to be doing we are not here to try ruin people's lives and I think that is a massive consideration when again you're coming back to dealing with something that is so so high Stakes people onto your program.

I guess you know the other true Crime poses another risk.

I guess no is there a danger that you end up having a fanbase Who start to see themselves as amateur and particularly looking at you just because he had a podcast medium is so intimate with listeners.

Oh absolutely and I think that it is a double-edged sword we are very very loyal fan base and we have people that have been with us for the past 6 years who are in listen to every episode incredibly invested in thing and we are very lucky that we.

Informed listenership that I don't think they would go and cause that kind of damage to anybody's reputation, but it's hard to ignore when it comes to the world of I think one of the best best that's not the right word one of the most obvious examples is from the Elisa lam, documentary that they highlighted of the the musician whose life was essentially ruined by people who had decided that they were internet sleeves and they had solved the case and he was the one who had killed this woman and I just think that is such a warning such a red flag for what shouldn't be done.

How has producers of true Crime content you control that I think all you can do is situasi these people will conduct their own quote on quote and best wishes on the internet anyway.

I think that is that speaks more to this new obsession with true crime and justice and people feeling like they know better.

I think that things like.

Documentaries like that have shown people that there are absolutely instance as well or enforcement make terrible mistakes or whatever may be the case things are overlooked and so people feel like I could do better.

I I could insert myself into this and I could probably point fingers the things we always say to our listeners when you're doing that when you're looking on the internet, you are not investigating.

You are only research because you're not generating any new information.

So please don't act on that a lot of true Crime does feature attacks on women often quite grizzly brutal attacks.

What was the point that you you wanted to make her earlier because you know one legitimate form of criticism is that this is it's kissing it's voyeurism you know some people find it very very hard to find this look quite mortgage appeal very off-putting in crime documentaries and that is.

We do now of course is that they are working girls children at those of homosexual lesbians and the gays and the elderly results of that they can feature greatly in crime documentaries about the recent Netflix programme about Jimmy Savile exposed to the sample but that program almost entirely features Jimmy Savile this site of the victims it almost sensationalised is and what we have to be really careful about and program acres is not to sensationalize the crime Saudi very often we forget about the victims particularly when there are multiple victims so my recent programme on Channel 5 which included the tapes audio tapes or Peter Sutcliffe and we got into admit to other cry.

That was very much focused to be able to highlight lastly.

There are 13 women here and how many people know the names of those 13 women that were killed by the most we will remember the Peter Sutcliffe and name of the Yorkshire Ripper so people become synonymous in their offending behaviour rather than remembering the victim saying is very much about Victor do you know so all of my programs and I mean I have the benefits because my programs are invested so whenever I take a program on.

It is always about finding new information, but there is a Fascination of people and just picking up in relation to what he says about people online, so we've now got a different audience.

It's online who are The Detectives detectives give their views in relation now most of those people are they responsible but of course there are the small minority? Who will I will decide to help?

Decide to give their personal view in relation to it and there's no greater greater than the Madeleine McCann Madeleine McCann there was a there's a when does amount of people are there whenever I make a program.

I just finished the programme on Channel 5 and paramount about Madeleine McCann the amount of abuse that I get from people who all got of you relation to what's taking place.

I guess I guess this is the issue with true Crime is that as we was talking earlier.

Everyone's fascinated by it everyone has a viewing it bring you in at this point because you know it's wagatha, Christie podcast 5 Live and we'll talk about that in a minute, but I'm also a huge true Crime fan.

So why do you love it so much?

I mean, it's difficult to put your finger exactly on it.

I like to say to protect myself, but I think I still listen to the stories that have victims but I'm not like but I think it's what's already been inside of that kind of fascination with the absolute worse of of human nature and kind of wanting to try and understand how that happens and why that happens and I kind of don't think you can get enough of that.

I kind of just always want to know more and I think that's the core of it really is kind of waning to have access to those unseen unknown moments of life experience usually like you said pie from the safety of your own home which is pretty privilege to be honest, but it's it's this it's the Fascination I guess we hear a lot.

How much women love true Crime which might surprise from listeners, but apparently, that's why do you think there's that connection there or are they compared to watch it because of the content.

I think firstly earlier all human life is in a true crime documentary emotion you can imagine love hate lost jealousy fear it all in there and whenever we do ask them search sweets at what we can see that to get back for a first two marks point but 60% of them are women and secondly.

That's what they want for that emotional engagement relationships really important to understanding uncertainty 18-in what's around us that compels people to watch I think you're going to be awfully careful about broad-brush conclusion.

Women like this and men like that and because I've never found that really is particularly helpful, but I think it probably would be fair to say that is a shame or interest in relationships on the feminine side of obvious than those on the other side of us because we got rid of that they want to know about the frankly the gadgets the detection the forensics the science and we actually at the male attributes of Investigation as can be but you know number less back capture the nation Abbie Maddocks was this new territory for you in the podcast.

Yeah, it was it was new territory for me in reporting on celebrity gossip.

I guess I'm a comedian.

So I usually talk mostly about myself, but I came to it as a a massive true Crime fan and I kind of Pitch to Radio 5 Live being like report on this case but can I do it in the style of a very serious true Crime podcast because I thought it would be fun and funny to I guess take quite a silly case and a lot of people's eyes and present it like it was the most serious court case to hit the UK today and it was it was great funny.

It kind of it was the best of both worlds to quote Hannah Montana and who insures regular Question Time Radio 4.

Yeah, it was it was that kind of especially when we going to the court reporting daily update of these new things coming out these amazing one line is being dropped the Vue CBT jacket from the past but then also in in the setting.

It was like love Island if it was in court exactly it wasn't just a focus on the two when you saw Coleen Rooney's barrister their becoming something of a Celeb what's your take on this level of media attention surrounding court cases well.

It's incredibly interesting when I was touching upon the idea that the research development that Caroline cameras and criminal courts to report on sentencing remarks and only have to think about what life I would have looked like that have been paid out in a trial was televised with all of the attention that comes from the public and I think the question then becomes you know that the celebrities in their own right.

Will a pain to the court of public opinion or are they trying to do their job? And it said you're coming under even greater scrutiny because of all of the press attention that's around the back of her surroundings.

When do you think that ends up in the change in the way that the law is being practised at the moment.

We only have criminal cameras out of Last cameras as a last week in the criminal courts not in the sea.

There's no movement towards that there's long been cameras and I'll call for appeal and Supreme Court that doesn't they don't have the same effect on victims and Witnesses you would have it and courtrooms.

So I don't think that they are in the US but it's important.

You know what what was going to happen to the woman who allegedly dropped her phone in the North Sea and mistakenly deleted WhatsApp I think people are interested in the miscarriage.

Is this point as well? What do you think about the cameras sentencing judge of that puts the attention very very scary on then the tension family on then.

It's really important judges deal with with incredibly finely balanced situations and it's important that the public really understand the word that they do and sidetracked by the media for all that comes around a criminal case or a civil case Baker and Abi Clarke Media show will be back at the same time next week but for now thanks for listening.

Goodbye.