Read this: 28/09/2022 Radio 4 Feedback

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this morning you can take your pick up the signs to look out the ft was warning of market turmoil the Times reported a house price warning the sun simply said bricking it since then the Bank of England has stepped in to try and calm the market by buying some but this is a tumultuous time for the UK economy.

It's a story whose importance is matched by its complexities which poses some challenges for news journalists self very much included so we can look at how you do do this story and how you don't also with me.

We have two scoops specialist Gabriel pogrund needs to Whitehall editor of the Sunday Times you set the news agenda.

Will hear how he gets his stories and if you're wondering about Jane Garvey and Fi Glover has recently announced move from the BBC 2 x radio.

We've got their agent on to tell.

How it happened let's begin with the situation with the UK economy here with me the media studio is Stephanie Flanders head of Bloomberg economics and were also joined by Paul Lewis the presenter of Radio 4 Moneybox both of your you're very welcome and Stephanie leaving for someone like you who's covered these matters for some time.

This is a particularly challenging story to get across.

I think it's a double challenge.

I think the British people have always through history can a struggle to understand the importance of the pound changing value.

They're not musically about to go and we did start this week's hearing about the pound pitting all-time lows, but there's been a source of another major part of the uncertainty probably more important part of the uncertainty in this week's which is this big run from UK government debt at the moment.

I start talking about gilts and bonds and yields going up that does become you start.

Two more technical territory that people don't understand even though it actually means mortgage products are being taken away taken off the shelves and people's mortgage rates are going up well.

It's the question should journalists even be using them in the last few months the inflation has largely been replaced by cost of living because Billy Joel innocent decided that's an easier phrase to take in.

I think there are times when it's talk about squeeze talk about cost of living I think even when it comes to the pound a think you use I find myself to saying the world's got a lot more expensive because I can get that gets across.

What's at the heart of the problem with this dynamic in the in the government debt market is I think people do have to have some kind of understanding that if international investors are becoming less concerned about Britain's economic future about the past the government's taking it on how much borrowing it's got in store and charging more to to lend to the UK government.

We do have to start teasing out the implications of that so you as well.

It's interest rate.

That is borrowing costs.

Not just for the government but also for the rest of us and Paul I guess your job along with the money box team will try and connect these macro issues the price of the value of the pound the cost of borrowing for the government with the experience of of individuals and the live there leading yes and that can be difficult and I think journalist they tend to worry about mortgages.

I think this journey is probably have them but you have to remember only about less than 1-in 3 people actually have a mortgage mortgage rates Rise it would affect some people some people know about another million of couple of million in a year.

It won't affect most people even with mortgages.

So you have to be careful about saying all this is a disaster, but you can say mortgage rates will go up because the bank rate is going up but every time you use whether it's guilt bank rate inflation you have to explain it.

I remember when I

Wake up to money on Radio 5 live long time ago.

I would never say the FTSE 100 without saying that's the index that shows the price of shares in 100 biggest companies a nice day after somebody's just started listening today.

I haven't a clue what the footsie is and even better explanation is a bit short and but it helps people understand the importance and intervention by the Bank of England today.

I did hear one hapless journalist trying to explain what was going on as he was reading the statement and I don't blame you at all.

He couldn't it was completely impenetrable and he made a very good diet, but I don't think anybody at the Bank of England done something very unusual a very good reason, but I'm very I've been in that situation myself many times I suppose the question is Howden newsrooms had a news organisations.

Cope with stories like this when the majority of their journalist won't be specialist.

They will be generally.

Suddenly a story of this complexity and importance lands on them and they're the ones responsible for explaining as if I go back to my sort of past life as BBC Economics editor.

I mean there are those moments during the global financial crisis and another time square unit with the Bank of England decides in a quantitative easing was also pretty difficult to explain but that is why you have those specialist jobs and you can do as many explain as you can both publicly and indeed internally so we used as you know we said we have seminars before the budget to say this is what to look out for here are the key numbers that you need to look at I think that Dad is why you are not at not to be too kind of the BBC but that is the importance of having those kind of specialist jobs you got Faisal Islam rocking up on the 10:00 news that got News world at One Today programme talking people through and explaining people again and again what a bond is.

The most people's heads they don't really understand why it's important, but if you tell them you know you're going to say some tax, but it's only going to be around £150 a year then.

They start listening if you great.

Thank you.

Just in case if you want to buy a house then you say but it's only £2,500 to most people then they realise that these interventions of the government and maybe not quite so major and then if you had people coming on so yeah, but the tax cut at the highest rate that will say somebody on a million-pound £55,000 and then people start taking notice of that and I think Chris the check is key and I always prepare budgets with a spreadsheet, so I've got those figures to hand and otherwise you're relying on treasury.

Presley just give the figures and I am absolutely not saying releases are inaccurate, but they are true, but very misleading at times that you can have to get through that misleading stuff to tell people what's really going on.

Important super power is the ability to count and you have to just keep remembering that really you're there to count and to keep the report it go but watching as he called it but one last question for you even if you've wrestled the macro Concepts into something we can all understand even if you've done the numbers behind that so I understand how it impacts on our individual lives is there a risk within doing that you take a position on whether development is a positive or a negative because there isn't necessarily always agreement that what the markets are doing is necessarily a good or bad.

I think even the financial journalist can oftentimes themselves and not and this happens to me and Bloomberg you actually have what looks like a rather mystify market reaction to something and then they will seek explanations when potentially the market have just done something which investors as a group of done something which isn't entirely comprehensible according to the standard economics.

I think there is a risk that you impose the story sometime.

Weather isn't too story there, but I think you can still be true to know what the majority of economies to saying or what that what the tradition for example in the case of the recent growth plan for the government objectively very different from the previous policies of Conservative governments especially the George Osborne area after after 2010 and one could say that my financial markets might find it surprising they might worry about the lack of costing attached to it.

I think all of those things are worth saying without without taking a strong position.

Yes so much taking of you, but I have to say if the majority of economists say one thing and a few minority once you've always said the opposite for a long time say another yes, you have to say to views are not of equal value.

Just because one person says black and one person says why does not mean it could be back or white you have to give the emphasis to the majority.

All people who traditionally have been right and have been sensible and again to come back to tax cuts.

It's perfectly reasonable to say will learn encourage growth the chance of encourage the most ordinary people.

It'll be a couple of hundred quid.

How will that encourage growth and I think that's a perfectly reasonable point of you just before I let you both go is there just one thing that you think these news journalist get this right this week.

Is there one thing that you're watching and listening and ticking no we need to get out this across the most important thing which I think does go to a thing that is difficult for everyone to understand which Dynamics of a bond and I won't go into it, but when you have that we have the following the pound and people sort of may or may not understand that the the rise in the government borrowing costs.

We know that we potentially knows that means higher spending a higher cost for the government down the road and also higher mortgage rates for people who have mortgages, but the flip side of it is all those government bonds which are sitting gilts.

Sing in pension funds in insurance companies in people's Isis many many people have a big chunk of their savings in those asset and what has happened in the last few weeks.

Is there value has gone down dramatically from the start of the year gone down by a third eye thing when people look at those of you that those people who do have occupational defined contribution pensions with their money box is going but all of those assets have gone down by a third and I think we tend to think or higher interest rates that will be good for Savers will in the end.

It might be better for Savers who was doing new savings now, but they have things locked away and those assets.

I've just had a massive hit just briefly all of you.

Would I would pick a different topic to be honest because this weekend we concentrating on the rising fuel bills on on Saturday and they have not been frozen.

They won't be £2500 everybody and those a common misconceptions that we will be debunking on Saturday they are frozen from Saturday but on Saturday

And that's where they're going to be frozen and £2500 is not a cap could be much higher or much lower and that hasn't always been got over properly pogcat that isn't a cat get more details on that from you in the morning box team on Saturday on Radio 4 Stephanie Flanders head of Bloomberg economics.

Thanks very much indeed to you too now.

I next get to see you in the Studio with me as he is currently so prolific that is scooter in danger of becoming part of the Nation's weekly routine more often than not recently on a Saturday night or Sunday morning.

You may become aware of a story from Gabriel program is the Whitehall editor of the Sunday Times and well.

I could lift the long give you a long list of stories.

He's broken go back to July the told us about then Prince Charles securing money from Osama bin Laden siblings despite the objections Palace age last year who won the British journalism awards for anti-corruption reporting in first work on David Cameron and Lex greensill if you remember those Cameron

Sunak will we know about them? Thanks to Gabriel and then in the last few weeks.

There was the Scoop that Liz truss is Chief of staff mark for that being interviewed as a witness by FBI agents investigating an alleged criminal plot to bribe a Puerto Rican politician and then we learnt courtesy of Gabriel the Mr fallbrook have been paid was being paid by his private lobby and Company not as the Servant something that is now changed I should say in both cases, Mr Fullbrook denies doing anything wrong, but let's meet the man behind the sundae scoops.

I gave you thanks for coming in that was I Can Dream of the more general introduction to be very popular with my Mum and Dad this evening listening hello to them and it's all entirely factually correct.

You're on quite a run.

Let's talk about the Mark Holbrook FBI Story 1 come together.

This was a weird one of a story and circumstance lining and in white serendipitous fashion.

We were interested in.

Reports at the FBI investigating a Venezuelan born Italian Italian citizen based in Mayfair overclaim, is the e had a channel money into the US administered island of Puerto Rico and reason why we have Sunday Times became interested in this was twofold.

The first was at man in question Julio Herrera velutini was a party donor how how does a Venezuelan born Italian system donate to the Tories and tyg I looking into him in American territory.

We also heard that CT group a well-known lobbying firm very active in Westminster and had been consulting with this fettuccine character and I've got to say it's a match of investing in our days and for his always been the case, but I think we feel this very acutely and the news right now.

I'm not worried.

I'm involves dealing with lawyer as always at the Sunday Times and the lawyers of maybe our anniversary doesn't the right but I just can't say that when it comes to criminal investigations.

We now know I'm very important recent Court judgements that reporting anything is going to be very complicated so the lawyers get involved at some point but presumably before the lawyers get involved there a conversation.

There are lots of them.

I want to how many you have which don't go anywhere in particular.

Well if I've got Stephanie sitting next to me now.

She works at B&M Bargains recently involved and very important at the Supreme Court which sadly for profession found a person does they have a reasonable expectation of privacy during a criminal investigation is under charged and this court case found that you and I saw the public can find out about that person's involvement in Criminal proceedings from Bloomberg

Comedian show talking about this case.

Yeah, I remember listening to any wrote fantastic beasts after as well and so it from the very outset.

We got exotic banker involved in something rather than Toriko and we were from from the moment and that this intelligence field.

It's Wayne from the Sunday Times Newsroom dwelling on what we would not be able to say and we are timer for inches of doing the story on the grounds that CT group.

They're very politically exposed lobbying company based between the UK and Australia well.

That's a company not a person and it was a state of the public interest and revealing that the company has become involved was quite a hearty albeit for legal reasons.

We we never managed to publish anything it was only months later when CT director Mr Fullbrook became chief of staff in Downing Street that we thought I do remember that I'm coming up a while ago and during the intervening period

Charges have been brought indictment to be on sale for reporting environment became much much easier for us and I wonder if you deliver scoop after scoop on a Sunday do those scoops become you in some ways because people come to you because they associate you with someone who can give a story impact in some respects working at Sunday paper as most anxiety-inducing experience because you're there everyday restrained on 6 days only you can say John intervention had once a week and I mean sometimes you've done an impact full story and we're getting tips and intelligent and you know if you're not going to be able to on as a as a good corporate citizen, but genuinely vs.

The case is that on one hand it is difficult you can't come on then yourself when you want it all the time or the other this is kind of unique privilege.

Body else is running with this daily sprint and we run a weekly marathon and have time to find us consider and shape the stories working on it actually structurally encourages people to think beyond.

What is happening on a daily basis.

I mean I can't step into that baby hamster wheels, I have to think about things that have a shelf life for that least a week which is probably why the decade the Sunday Times Sunday papers have had a distinct role than our Media landscape presume me the flip side of not being on the hamster wheel though is that you feel a pressure come Sunday or come Saturday night? Which is when we often see your stories of to deliver absolutely I mean you know it is a blessing but it is not one to it.

All journalists are entitled and I mean you have to sort it out on Sunday babies when they're right too kind of pay this unusual world.

Only only open their mouths want to eat and you know as a human being you know if you don't get anything in a paper on.

Then Sunday full-blown existential crisis, you know you're only as good as your last story but some new thinking of the last or I'll have arrived and suppose that can be the locomotive your productivity and inside the Sunday Times is there a culture of my relatives of your colleagues that scoops mad about scoops matter the most of the stuff we were talking earlier about the importance of exploration and explain as it comes in many forms is scuba scuba still the pre-eminent form and your Newsroom Sunday x 1 of the number of publications has a paper also.

We don't just want reach.

I mean it's sort of good for our prestige and I'll public interest roll n scoops followed often widely reported, but we also want to serve our readers and the time the metric of a decent story of a you know whether as discussed on the Andrew Marr Show where they got on the front page now.

We have these terrifying acronyms like dtir dwell time.

12 time in decor, I'm listening yeah absolutely it's today.

It's where the people are making it to the end of our stories.

We often feel like we're doing things that are important but occasionally we know we will dedicate a lot of Holland space or pixels based to a piece and it transpires the readers don't necessarily as much as we'd like them to see I sounds a bit like a completion rate on a video same thing I guess absolutely that kind of data-driven approach for coming in can you tell us what's coming next? I think my lawyer is a times newspapers Ltd would be very angry at me if I said anything out but thanks for coming and thank you Whitehall reporter correspondent for the Sunday Times now to finish off today's edition of the media showing eternal one of the big stories of the week because on Saturday we heard that Jane Garvey and

Glover will leaving the BBC four times Radio now for almost all of you listening.

You don't need me to tell you feeling Jr and different ways there.

They've been giants of five live and then radio for the shifting across two times radio and so they join quite a lift Jon Sopel and Emily maitlis, Andrew my Louise Goodall Vanessa Feltz Simon Mayo Mark Kermode and if we go back a little for Eddie Mair Chris Evans John Cena and others all of whom have the part of the BBC TV and radio output understand, how these deals happen and the calculations that are in the joint by who's the and James agent also co-founder of Knight Ayton management which represent a whole raft of the biggest names in broadcasting and we're joined by Megan Carver founder and managing director of carbon, which does publicity for some of the biggest names in broadcasting making a soon thanks for being with the song at the media show so I've got to start with you tell us how it happened.

We did list because it was the return to live broadcasting which is their roots their first love and they were really been underused at the BBC even though they had this huge podcast which downloaded millions over the last few years.

They had to get back to broadcasting and times radio very cleverly identify them as this magical gqo to be back broadcasting daily in that's really well.

It started.

We had other offers with those are for other offers were podcast based and this wasn't about taking a podcast from the BBC that'll be successful and transporting it somewhere else this was about then going back to what they could always done which was live broadcasting and they haven't been doing over the last few years and so that was really what doses some people listening might be surprised to hear that and think what didn't the BBC want off of them or live broadcast?

Well, good questions to put that they had been working on other programming but it wasn't enough to be honest the podcast was extremely successful Jane had another series called life-changing but across the year there wasn't a great deal of broadcasting and that's really what they wanted to do and because the podcast with the two of them together at work, so well, the Times wanted to make the most of them put them together.

Do you lose which is where they started? I should say before we go any further that fortunately the podcast will continue on the BBC until the end of the year we also invited the BBC to take part in this discussion I mean from your point of view those suhi.

You are one of the best-known broadcasting agents in the country.

You've got two of the best-known stars on your books and an option of leaving the BBC after many years comes up what?

Do you take do you advise them to do one or the other or do you have a relationship work when you have to look at overall the family commitments the lifestyle obviously the financial implications and considerations are important, but you have to look at people at the same time.

So it was more complex at this moment in time is right for their career.

What do they want to do? This is an exciting idea that just grew and grew and it took many months to pull together and they were very sadly the BBC and it's very hard to BBC I have worked with other people that have been at the BBC Moira Stuart for example the whole career of the BBC and to leave is very difficult.

It's like leaving home.

What to do if it is the right thing that we have decided we are going to leave in Mars case it was because she was going to Classic FM and it was a whole new life for her and has proven to be the right move.

Yes, it's a big responsibility because it's someone's livelihood it's their career.

It's their mortgage.

It's all of those things you've been talking about earlier, but if they've made their decision and you know it's the right thing to do what I have to do is make sure we have that we don't get pulled off in different directions with people saying why don't you do this? Why don't you do that if it's the right thing to do and the circumstances are right and the part of that but it's not the can't be driven by that.

There's a lot of factors that have to come in and I have to keep well in this case you got the deal Dunphy and Jane I'm moving across to x to bring you in here as you would have heard that long list of big BBC stars.

I said have left in recent years.

Do you think that's just normal moving and shaking within the media is there something else going on here.

I think it's normal.

I think it's a bit of normal removing shaking in the media.

I think think what happens is that when people leave something in the media because there was no names of people get really.

Well, actually, it's not unusual for people to change tops and many people in many Industries changed jobs and it's never seen as a big deal.

What happens when it's on in the media because the house excitement around it and we think I was gonna be the big drama people angry and I've worked with and I know that media and there's a lot of speculation that the shoes dramas and people running around corridors panicking, but honestly in my experience.

It is a series of adult conversations without dramas is based on many factors.

Do you think those factors that you reference there for example Radio presenters the obvious used to primarily sign up to present TV and radio programmes, but now there's intellectual property there and live events.

There's a there's a broader range of factors here on them again.

So many more options so if you go back even for five years ago is your speech broadcast in the UK your options really was fairly minimal you were basic get the BBC or maybe international is a global audience and going to that live that and I'm just going to bring it because I'm sure what time is Sue do all of those factors mean the Babs being outside the BBC is a simpler experience because you can do these things without with fewer obstacles perhaps if someone is where they are rules are in place.

So there's some things they can and can't do we have to abide by them.

So it's yes, you can look at opportunities for people are allowed to do things within.

Depending on what their role is and what part of the BBC they working so it doesn't close everything else, but when people want to leave the BBC very often the BBC will say what is your creator ask? Where is actual fact the people on the courier to a number of things that they work very hard all their life and they had to have been at the BBC and then they want to break free and they allowed to do so but it's not an easy decision for anyone and it's certainly not breaking Free is necessarily mean someone's going to pots of money and all different ways because it's not a simple.

It's much much and people like people leading the BBC will find it and what they thought b&j.

Going to be going across x Radio 2 on the ghost later.

Bye see you later.

Thank you very much for being with us to thanks and Meghan Carver as well from car boot before Sue and Megan we heard from Paul Lewis from BBC Money Box Stephanie Flanders

Bloomberg and Gabriel programmed from the Sunday Times you can hear the media show BBC sounds as well, but for this week.

That's it.

Thanks for listening bye-bye.