Read this: BBC's Modi documentary controversy

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and well.

We got two subjects today in a minute.

Will talk about Spotify it's announce cuts made changes in management the CEO says that they got carried away with new Investments going on and what all of this tells us about podcasts and music streaming and ongoing efforts to make money from those endeavours first home.

We're going to look at the Fallout from a two-part BBC about India's Prime Minister narendra modi it's called Indian mod question it's on iPlayer right now and explore the tensions between Mr modi and India's Muslim and it also looks at claims about his role in the 2002 Gujarat riots in which over 1000 people died now this documentary wasn't broadcast in India but it's caused uproar there.

This is from the beginning of the first episode of the world's biggest democracy.

He came to power promising a new age of prosperity.

That is Rule has been mad.

I religious turmoil.

What are the impact of the documentary has been amplified in India by social media and the Indian government's acted on this and size of the government is called the program hostile propaganda and auntie India garbage.

He also says the government order Twitter blocked weeds linking two clips of the film and that YouTube's been instructed to block up loads of it and so if it's a documentary about the prime minister the Fallout from it is also about media and press freedom in India to that begin with.

Staff writer at foreign policy magazine his life of this from Washington DC wiki thanks for joining us on the media show, what would be the Indian government's justification for asking Twitter and you to remove these clips when he when he spoke about blocking This documentary inside the Twitter and YouTube Clive is an update to India's are in i, t rules are at the information technology rules that was first reported in 2021 and what he cited was emergency powers that give the government are the government the ability to order off of anything that threatens the sovereignty national Security of India or friendly relations with foreign countries that something that.

Said is going to be over broad definition and and the set of parameters that allow that allow the government to go after go out and it doesn't like and does the government use this law frequently on media content that perhaps it doesn't approve of increasingly, so yes, this is not the first time that the modi government has clashed with with Twitter in particular and with social media companies more broadly.

They have been instances of police raids on on Twitter's headquarters in the past and Twitter has actually filed a lawsuit or last year against against the Indian government Calling these measures over broad and saying that it are impinges on the fundamental rights of Twitter users in India is still on.

But there is a broader a sentiment of the contacts to this is the body has also very effectively use social media to come to power and to stay in power.

He is the most followed active world leader on Twitter now with over 86 million followers, but the body and his government are also increasingly intent on controlling the narrative both externally and internally but especially in the so the given social medias reach and small size but outside influence in the country.

It is it has frequently become a target and social media companies that frequently become a target of this government Twitter Twitter is confirmed for the BBC that it has blocked 52 weeks based on request by India's Ministry of Information and broadcasting a YouTube spokesperson said the video has been blocked from a pair.

By the BBC due to a copyright claim and a BBC spokesperson says as a standard practice we follow procedure to have a legal up loads of any BBC content removed that doesn't necessarily those that statement regarding advisor that the government has also requested certain clips are removed from YouTube to your staying with us.

That's bringing supriya Sharma editor of the Indian news website scroll and chips in Chima Asia policy director at the digital rights organisation access now and run and a previous job you work for Google and Ellie as they government affairs man.

I wonder what it was like interacting with the government of India act of job involving quite a few requests and Pensions around content removal service user data in if you see the public disclosures contact forms.

This is a matter of public record.

Detox menus list and invite what's the most concerning is my sister moved out of work in a private company and the numbers have increased massively between many of the transparency reports published by Facebook and data by Google by Twitter and what you seem since then that is a more concerning sort of doubling down on intimidation and pressure when I was there the most potentially a man regulation some of these blocking roads or paths but the government acknowledged the damp problems and even a temporary protective somebody's route from Callum saying that we would trust the government will let people know when they are blocked and people can approach Indian Court to challenge disorders and today you have a government which is nearly 5000 plus accounts to block every year.

This is not data centre India filewriter information request.

2015 to 20-22 over 55000 block diameter executive branch and Court orders and today you have been Federal Government regulation of journalistic sources of activities of selected longacres and they doing anything a secret today.

I want to challenge it won't give you a copy of the order that vapour.

Let's let's get into the detail here of how this works because India's foreign ministry is called This documentary a propaganda piece designed to push a particularly discredited narrative.

We know because it's been explained it to us that the law that's been used to justify certain clips being removed is a law that looks and I quote anything that threatens India's sovereignty and relations with foreign country who makes a judgement over whether that is correct whether the government has judge.

This is you correctly can it just take it on its own or can the courts intervene to to correct the

That the legal reality is that the government consultation on the comments to follow both of the court said the limitation that Indian Corsa member in the protected fundamental rights in the constitution and what that means that the recording states that subject to awkward saying later was that necessary was a proportionate a genuine reason but the weather in currency.

Does it today? Is it the executive branch is particularly the political executive it is supposed to meet for the side of the something has to be blocked on the box in government.

I'm when they shoot these orders are not shared with in mechanism.

No role for parliamentarians normal for the course and the review mechanism by which you can see this is another on the civil servants appointed by under the pleasure of the prime minister.

So you can go to court but you like me very lucky very good set-up.

Even though you've got concerns about whole out of this works as superior let's bring you in your editor of the Indian news website scroll.

Have you been surprised at the scale of the reaction to this BBC documentary about the prime minister 2002 in the run-up to the 2014 national elections when modi first tested for the prime ministers of bills the ruling party the bjp is imagemanager to get rid of the shadow of portrait image from anti-muslim violence to go and check to development and promise to bring that for the rest of the country and that messaging box to bjp won the election movie became the prime minister and stand with seen as that.

Large sections of the mainstream Media in India have been reluctant to question the narrative several Media outlets and critically amplify 2.2 2002 worst even started in the process and then turns this BBC documentary are which reminds everyone of what happened and it's nothing Bude by a generation of Indians are born after 2002 who went well with the events that took this then and are now beautiful documentary in screenings on cancer screening administrator are clamping down against in some things seem that college administrators.

I went to the extent of cutting of power and internet in the university students in the state of Rajasthan

Suspended for watching The Documentary swords actually this band has only ended up finding interest in the documentary and the fact that it comes from BBC which was well regarded as soon as it's made it harder for the government to describe it and before I ask you a couple more questions to pray.

I was mention the criticism from the Indian for a ministry about this documentary at the BBC's reply to criticism has been at the documentary was rigorously researched according to the highest editorial standards.

We offer the Indian government a right to reply to the matters raised in the series it declined to respond to this listening to describe that some large media outlets off and side with the prime minister.

Is that any different to what you might find in lots of countries where certain Media outlets are simple 21 political perspective and some to another is that particularly unusual or necessarily a problem.

Well, it's been well documented that Media freedoms have been steadily declining in India modi honest with police officers arrested jailed in mob violence and online abuse reporting critically on the previous government and the film to do their jobs and now under pressure functions of political and that's not just happened in the world.

We would be seen that the government have any adverse reporting has agenda driven and fake minister narendra modi Government famously find prostitutes to give an example of how people in high off where it's harder to do free and actually ridiculous journalism that speak truth to power and then.

brought an instrument of the information technology rules that are being used within has 16 and those those icy guidelines your referencing are the same guidelines that wish you was staying at the beginning of being used to have certain clips of This documentary removed from Twitter and Facebook according to one government advised to pick up on what you were saying about the experience of being a journalist in India in the 2022 edition 2022 edition of the press freedom index published by reporters without borders India fell to the 150 at position its lowest ever that's out of 180 countries in the last edition India moved up a little tu-142 the Indian government responded saying the methodology was questionable and non-transparent no for talking about the relationship between the government and the prayers that's also talked about the relationship between the government and tag and

Bring you in here.

We talk to lot about Twitter if you notice any shifting how to it is handling the modi government since Elon Musk took over so I think musk is the big wild god is we've seen with his leadership of Twitter has ownership of Twitter in general there appears to be a lack of a lack of awareness of on the part of how Twitter is used in the rest of the world and India has traditionally been one of the biggest markets for all of these reasons social media companies.

I think what's most indicative is that there was no comment from Twitter and secondly when someone on Twitter Elon Musk about the banning of the BBC documentary his response was this is the first I've heard of that before you go on.

I've got that to eat in front of me, so I can.

Read it forever on listening you said it's the first.

I've heard of it.

It's not possible for me to fix every aspect of Twitter worldwide overnight while still running Tesla and SpaceX among other things so he was playing hasn't been involved in this matter at all and it's also as soon as he took over the company in October soon after healing.

Heal a roughly half its global staffing reportedly many of those cuts were in India in places like Nigeria and the Brother Africa Team Twitter was also briefly but I think the big shift.

I would say is that twigger in the past as as I mentioned earlier the actually suit the Indian government last year these roads Twitter has been at the forefront standing up for free expression even even against governments that might threaten that free expression and under Elon Musk when he took over he has.

He has sort of style himself as a free speech absolutely but he's also said that he will he will not interfere with local the laws of the land when is an appointment and chips in Chima from access now.

Let's bring you in on this particularly because you used to work for Google and a relation in a job.

Where you interacted with with the government.

Isn't it? Just the literally comes with the territory that if you're big tech and your operating in one country or another you may have to compromise your principles to fit in with whatever the laws of that particular country are required to do is when you need to push back or clarify.

What the laws and I used to say that you I would have police officials drop by office saying handover data on this issue, and I would say well show the legal authority in the first automatic response might be the same know how dare you ask us that and then they will be the question if you escalate this will go to court you cannot hold back on this will push you to be accountable and reality.

All the time you push back and then judges and lawyers sometimes he crossed the line.

They will do that the reality of democracy is not every order is legal.

You can do overdraft remember trump block access to certain Chinese services who said he's countries close to said that you might have a little bit of India and that's what this is understanding that or will be pushed office space will be able to comply with the rules from different countries is a little bit understanding because in democracies you actually push back and contestant something and that you're not saying that the content without the sensor Amazon orders and one practises while in their own overalls and violet ingest constitution and that's the company.

So, that's how you think tech companies should approach the supriya finally if I could ask you what about you as an editor senior journalistic figure in India do you hear from the government on a regular basis does the government say to you know that article can't stand or that video you've made can't stand that we are getting Direct communication from the government.

Where is a small independent outlet.

We do our work quite independently I can't see the same for large media outlets in India maybe more often having said that.

There's always a sword hanging over all of us as if the government emergency powers and put the BBC documentary criticism then it's obviously easier for it and thank you very much indeed.

She just before I let you go.

BBC is no stranger to controversies around its journalism.

It's also operated and broadcasting India for a good while do you think this documentary will have a long-term impact on the BBC standing in India babe.

I think they're there is a what happens is the Dead the recognition pointed out earlier the BBC is a respected global broadcaster and that is why the Indian government has made.

He found it a little harder, but there is also a growing growing side of push back on on anything that criticises modi and so I do think it will have to have some impact.

I I don't think the BBC's ability I don't see the BBC's ability to operate in India necessary being being constrained.

But as we've seen with some of which platforms in the social Media platform there the Indian government is intent on giving it to control the narrative and so so we'll have to see whether it goes well.

Thank you very much indeed on iPlayer documentary India the modi question thank to Richie younger.

Supriya Sharma and Singh cheema now next on we'll talk about Spotify it's the biggest music streaming in a few years back.

You might remember it made a major move into podcasts people and hearing your stories.

That was the Harry and Meghan podcast and the British History podcast call her daddy and then the Joe Rogan Experience they are all part of Spotify is close to a billion dollar based on original podcast the idea was to become the Netflix of audio and it's an idea that certainly evolving let me just running through a few development spotify's reduce its workforce by 6% the person in charge of its podcast actually left recently has been speaking to insiders and saying spotify's future isn't exclusive podcast it's advertising let me have the head of Spotify down your ex saying in hindsight.

I probably got a bit carried away over invested relative to the uncertainty resource shaping up in the market and then also this week.

We have Louis Theroux announcing a new podcast with Spotify so it's all going on and you could well.

What is going on trying to find out Nick Hilton's a podcast industry analyst II runs the production company Nick great to have you with us on the media show tell me Outta Here I'm trying to piece what's coming out of Spotify is requiring a bit of tea leaf reading when we're not exactly she was obviously no Billy and multi-billion dollar company tells people exactly what's going on in it so it's business.

The sense is that Spotify is investing so heavily in podcasting Big Bear million-dollar bet there have been some successes.

I think Joe Rogan's moved to Spotify has been a tangible symptoms of giving it that market dominant position others like the Harry and Meghan deal.

I think have probably not being such and such an overnight success, but either way the trend in data can be seen this Google to Amazon to Twitter and Facebook has been to scale down workforces investors want sleeker companies that have a clear Road property.

And right now.

It's looking like Spotify with they're saying it or not.

They see the that podcasting that expanded podcast an operation is the easiest that to trim what was the snake is founder of the ear buds podcast collected newsletter on the programme.

I'm looking at figures from last year in the UK 5% of time spent listening to audio is podcast do you think perhaps there is not to run podcast down at all that they need to be treated as a relatively small part of the audio offering whether it's for Spotify or anyone else think Spotify has a huge opportunity to bring potential listeners from 021 listening to Know Podcast to listening to at least one podcast and that will be get more listeners.

Spending more time with audio spoken audio in their ears.

I think Spotify has the opportunity to use its landscape to use its apps to use all of the infrastructure that it has to be.

Potential listeners into the Fold I hope the key is that Daniel actors with implied that he sees Spotify podcast emission as mature now that it should be evidencing its successors now and the whole industry which is always treat this combination on the verge of being the next big thing it is a mature industry now.

It may just simply not be the biggest thing in the world, but why is it not making money the biggest music streaming the world they've got a few been describing a mature podcast off ring some people listening might be thinking alderfen of making money who can but it's 100% not a podcast problem is a Spotify Spotify is not making money has never made money and it has a complicated rights deal with music studios record labels artists that has basically blood into it podcast offering they tried to use this may be a way of simplifying that difficult right relationship, but it hasn't worked and possibly need to prove that it's going to be a profitable company in the next few years otherwise is invested.

Ask a lot lot more and more territory questions, so those issues specific to Spotify Ariel more broadly On podcast presume.

You look across the US market and see lots of podcasts which are managing to or not.

Just make ends meet but make money there is a lot of money happening for independent creators as well as the reason that podcasters are able to do that is because you'll hear this time and time again podcasting is an intimate medium.

It is a trope that you know gets talked about all the time but it is an opportunity to really get into the ears of of their fans right then in there and that allows for advertisers to reach very niche audiences, but is it also because particularly in the US may be in the UK as well your average podcast listener is more affluent than the average American

And they are spending and Nick I bring you idiot one of the things.

I was reading before I came in.

There was an article by you saying podcast a dead or words to that effect now.

I think you are you know using a headline to get my attention which which which did the job the job but why do you think podcast on the verge of fundamentally changing I think it was the programme where are now this show wouldn't exist if it was play podcast this an opportunity to go on Radio 4 but it's also podcast it's also TV show you've got these multi-strand.

Can a Productions and podcasting is at a stage where I think that in a serious competitor across various Media forms.

You have to be a bit more dynamic.

You can't just be I'm going to go out on this open are assessed this old school technology has been around unchanging 15 years.

It's like newspapers.

Not refusing to go online when when internet was invented or I will also have opportunities have come about the broadcasting and I think would be.

Not take this opportunity to rethink the idea just listen to them.

Would you know I would somebody who likes to drive the car while I'm listening and like to go and walk my house is extremely clean because I left the 5-m by personally need to be doing something while I'm listening whilst I don't retain the information.

Just quickly can we prosper on Spotify making money in the near future one way or the other I think the designs look so bad for big generally that I think they are going to slim down there going to cut back and you know but I went on it newsletter from a younger supriya Sharma and raman Jets in Chima as we often say at the end of the program.

You can hear every edition of the media show via BBC sounds including This

will be there in a few minutes time, but me for now from me and the team thanks for listening and bye bye.