Read this: Free speech at GB News

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 hello Auntie Media show we're talking about shamima Begum there's a new BBC TV documentary and 10 podcast series about the woman who joined Isis age 15 whenever it's reported Josh Baker and one of the Producers with us, we're going to ask, what are the dangers and ethics of a project like this but before we get to that the comings and goings at GB news launched almost 2 years ago with a mission to shake up British Broadcasting all this one of its top presenters Mark Stein has left claiming bosses told them he would have to pay his own fines if Ofcom found he has broken its rules it comes as the broadcasting regulator continues its investigation of 2 episode Stein's GB news show which casts doubt on the safety of covid Vaccines in a studio with me is GB news is Chief Executive and Angelo frangopoulos welcome to the show.

Thanks for coming on and I think this is the first time that you spell publicly about what's going on so Stein was one of your prime Time presenters.

Why's he left GB News when we launched we made the decision had actually had a choice as to whether we are regulated or not and we decided to broadcast on public spectrum on television and radio and therefore we are regulated by Ofcom now.

How talented insightful or incredibly appealing you may will be as a presenter if you know you need to have a contract and you need to adhere to the regulations which we signed up to as an Ofcom regulated channel and reality of the situation and if that's not something that you willing to do then if we go is it true you wanted in so I think that's what we do not expect a present has to pay off or compliance and for the record we have no other confines today.

A lot of course including the BBC this situation with this particular matter was that if you don't want to engage in training and you don't want to engage in having editorial input from the licence broadcaster, then if you continue to then go on it without taking the guidance on board then and yet sexually there is a liability that we have the option of activating if necessary step back and if that is the case.

What does it say about your confidence in your editorial processes who runs to be usable the talent we obviously the channel we're responsible for editorial and we take very seriously when things go so off script or off off certainly the direction in which we want to go and it's actually have.

And I can Frank today operate within the Ofcom rules the wonderful thing about the Ofcom rules actually is that then as long as criticism about you know whether we should be operating within Ofcom if operate within the Ofcom guidelines.

There is nothing to stop us having a full and Frank debated that issues right and that is something that we have embraced over the last 21 months of the year thousands and thousands of broadcasting and the reality is that we can actually have that debate but we have to do it within the bounds of the Ofcom regulations which way as I said before have chosen to say and now I've got presenters of yours who don't feel so positive about Ofcom I'm in this week.

One of your present is Laurence fox has been as aq.com of being a state censorship vehicle so you do you agree with that clearly clearly to regulatory environment and there is Lawrence's viewpoints and he's absolutely entitled to it.

It is a regulatory environment and that says we actually as a business.

The company is a media broadcaster made the decision to sign up to a because that was the way for us to reach the people of the United Kingdom on television weather be on Sky freeview or Freesat which were all on or whether it's on our radio station on DAB plus some people will say it looks like your delivery provoking.

Ofcom is that part of the game plan well, I think we are a disruptor right.

That's actually you know there has been no change to broadcast news for 30 years and obviously short-lived ITN News but then again that was also partly establishment.

We are a start-up.

We are here to shake things up and yes, we do push the bounds of the regulatory environment because that is what he to do.

We are either question and actually talk about issues that otherwise I'm not brought a lot in general conversation and I think there's another really important point here, too.

Is that it's good that this debate is happening.

It's good that there's a debate about often does a good debate about a lot of the issues that we rise on GB news, because there is clearly a market for it and the audience really engages with those conversations is a difference between ensuring that you allowed of use and indulging conspiracy.

Look I don't think we indulge conspiracy theories works with lots of different perspectives at times some of our presenters Alexei energy person with everything is on the channel that actually the wonderful thing about it in fact it's very hard to find presenters who agree with each other that sexy the wonderful thing about what GB news is it really is a free speech net and something that we really embrace.

Ok.

Take one example for example on Saturday one of your present is Neil Oliver use the monologue to discuss what he called the Silent War by generations of politicians to take.

Open to all the people and impose a One World government the board of deputies of British Jews have complained that he's promoting anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

What do you think is GB news? We abhor any sense of anti-semitism about a broad range of subjects which are really interesting and it's good that they talked about the actually they explored and even having this debate about it.

I think is really really quite healthy and I don't agree with that position, but that is actually Neil's position and I will defend his right to be able to do so is it the kind of thing that's put off advertises on your from advertising on your Channel no, I think that's really interesting around the Advertiser front that has shifted significantly and I think part of it is the fact that is a 10th issue, as well.

We were we had just launched.

You know 21 months ago and there was a lot of questions.

They ask about what she been uses and I have to say that has been a marked change in the attitude of agencies and of advertisers and investors who are willing to take that long approach the month of January actually is one of our most successful when it comes to Advertiser since, we've had since launching our viewers will see listeners say a broader range of advertisers on our services than ever before so it is changing and it's changing because there is real audience in our service actually is making it is establishing itself as being an alternative to do offaly that existed between Sky News and the BBC news channel.

It is healthy for British journalism website.

Time to reconsider, so is a reference the boy got you've had what you're saying is that stranger we do want people to reconsider the boycott if you want to call that or pause or do you want to call boycotts call that what it is online on social media who don't agree with the position of actually having a free space station.

You know we do talk about a broad range of subjects and some people feel uncomfortable of it and I think that a lot of a comes down two groups.

I should stop funding who in fact very well.

I act Stein will help that advertising what we have made very clear is that we've made it clear.

I think for a publicly over.

What last few days actually is that we are Ofcom regulated.

We take that very seriously it is something that we.

Chosen to do we have chosen to be Ofcom regulated and we respect that and we will work within the bounds of that will push the boundaries and of course you got to remember that one of the key positions of October is actually to encourage plurality of voices in the media landscape what I believe that Ofcom has worked for a very well with us and the reality is that yes, there are investigations as you said organisations are invested investigated all the time and we will work within the bounds of those investigations and obviously we respect the process and we respect the fact that the Ofcom regulations are there to talk about your vision for the future of GB news.

I want to turn to live how emeritus professor of journalism City University and also a former managing editor at Sky News what is your sensible that special you know the Ofcom question is it possible? Do you think would you been used to be?

Speech news channel and operate within of Commons rules absolutely this because I have a very reasonable and they are very lenient in the in the interpretation of the rule.

There are two sections in the Ofcom code, which relate to something like GB news that sort of Channel 4 start all commercial TV channels in the UK have to have an Ofcom licence and the conditions that they don't abide that wasn't very clear that he's doing all that.

I think there's a disingenuous element there, but we'll get to that in a minute in the code of section 2 and section 5 section 5 talks about due impartiality impartiality and there's a great deal of stress balls on Jews at the context of the sort of programs that sort of you is that you're expecting to get but you are expected to be going to be reasonable when you give an argument particularly an argument in the political sphere that particular part of the section 5, it's it's sanctioned.

It's a bad thing there a fine.

But it's not the most dramatic part of breaching the Ofcom code section 2 is much more dramatic because that refers and I can quote factual programmes or items or portrayals of factual must not materially misleading the audience and it must not cause harm.

Ok.

I'm just button there just to say when you say disingenuous and you look at Angela do you mean well? I think that perhaps when you get to the stage where you actually promulgate something which could be seen as doing harm.

This is not a question of pure 3-speed.

This is maybe a question of flying a kite or gaining attention or provoking of combating yourself said gaining attention is very interesting that the two opinionated channels news channels that have sorted in the UK recently or Talk TV and you can talk TV was born in the way.

I talk radio talk radio was a very opinionated quite a few attitudinal radio station.

I didn't put many feet wrong if that's alright expression with Ofcom

TV hasn't got it wrong at all.

I'm beginning to wonder if TV news is trying to make a position vis-a-vis.

Talk to you by being more extreme.

It's all very well to talk about free speech but we're actually talking about something which Ofcom is investigating because there is a contention that it is damaged or harmed people I'm talking about the Naomi wolf interview with Mark Steyn there's one of the things that often as investigating the Travel lost debate, but we are is a platform where opinions can be delivered.

Obviously I can't speak about that particular incident because it is subject to an investigation, but we are not press the buttons.

We actually here to to talk about a broad range of subjects that are of interest to people I mean no we we are expanding our

Leon on Saturday night at 8 p.m.

With broadcasting our first documentary which is focused on the Grooming getting so we know it's not about pressing buttons on about causing trouble with Ofcom a purely is a us going down a path of talking about issues and actually reflecting opinions and discussions in the community that actually are you know I'm not really out there in that you have harmed people.

This is a very serious content that is subject to an Ofcom investigation and we do not harm people that is that is not what GB news is about adult and in fact if anything you know where where is the opposite actually we want to be an environment by conversations can happen in a very civil and open way and have multiple perspectives.

I am absolutely in favour of that.

I think it's a brilliant concept and all power elbow on there.

Put the dusting to be a pattern here.

This is the third time in fact if you talking about Saturday night as well.

There's been a provocation of off coming very serious allegations have been made.

Will you apologise for the steps we have got well? I don't see why we should apologise for the bridge.

Just wondered if he's happy to have a conversation with no one's raise anything with us, so happy to have a conversation with him if it's something is of concern, but this is not something that I think that should be an issue for an apology.

It is 1 / here.

I'm not here to speak about specific because we do it 18 hours a day of television and radio and that's from a broad range of perspectives everything from breakfast with two afternoons with Patrick Christy's and Michelle Dewberry and Nigel Farage and then wouldn't it is a broad cross-section so I think to isolate individual instances.

I think is.

All about the future of the channel you've been around 2 years nearly 2 years already we talked about the situation with advertisers if you can't attract more of the big spenders you how long can the channel continue to think you have a strategy that will see us break through this in fact.

This is all their audience at the end of the day and the audience stories actually quite compelling 14gb news.

You know we were laughed at launch, but people don't really consider the fact that we are increasingly being Sky News in certain time slots particularly in prime time.

We are eating closer to the BBC news channel and we are you know we reach 59% more Britain's than talk.

Talk radio across the week and cross of birth services, so the story is actually very very compelling because we know our position is that we are the People's channel and we are.

Sing with people I have to ask before the end it.

Can you tell us who is going to replace Mark Stein well, I could tell you right now in fact so the house today at 8 p.m.

Show is Jacob rees-mogg, and he'll be commencing that show in the coming weeks and with very much looking forward to welcoming him to bits for it.

So very exclusive for us right there.

I'm sorry that we're going to have to end it.

Thank you so much for this also Angelo frangopoulos for coming on the program, but sadly it is time to move on a completely different shamima Begum who has been at the centre of a huge amount of Media scrutiny ever since she left London with to school friends to join Isis in Syria 8 years ago was your night girl groomed as a 15-year or a fully signed up participant The Terror group last night and you BBC investigation into shamima Begum launched on TV and there's also a podcast called the shamima Begum story let's

Shamima Begum is one of the most divisive figures in British society.

Yeah, so little is known about what really happened to the first time.

She's what she says it's her full story so I've been investigating what she's told me and what she hasn't retracing her journey to see if she's telling me the truth examine where you went who she met and what she did I'm Josh Baker and I've been following shamima Begum story since the day she left because I want to know the truth about what really happened.

Just Baker is the voice you just heard there and Sarah is an investigative report it and one of the Producers welcome to you both and Josh first of all.

Why did you want to I mean shamima Begum is kind of like in away one of the most contemporary stories of our time.

She's got something of a sort of all the issues of British society at the moment.

There hasn't been things issues of race.

Migration tariff historian compasses at all and I should have had a unusual approach to this story in the sense that back in 2015 when she is actually filming in East London Mosque something completely unrelated now during the process of that it became apparent that three girls from the community of missing one of them was shamima Begum and I should have ended up butterflies a front-row seat into the story from the very earliest days, and how did you get access to her in the camp where she is so following on from The Mask you know the ended up coming to the nastiest celebrities.

So sort of witness to everything what's happening in spend some time with the families fast forward 7 years and I'm in Syria doing something else.

I get the chance to sit down with shamima Begum so it was wasn't planned and we started chatting and bizarrely at the game of where it became apparent that a lot of the other Isis women in the camp where she was held.

Add listen to the first series of our podcast series so where of me she was also aware of some of my reporting over the years we sought of started chatting which lasts for about 45 minutes and at the end of that she's turned around said I would like to do an interview with you and she ended up giving me what she says her definitive account of the last 8 years and sore and I've been investigating it and just to say that previous podcast was about another woman woman.

Isis in American woman forgot to ask did you pay for her story we do not pay for interviews? I've never pay for an interview my life and all I ever and you're the first time that you're not the first to receive the times as Wok Restaurant Anthony Lloyd found her then at 19 in the refugee camp in northern.

Syria his reporting might have contributed to a paying-in hardening against her.

Do you think she saw you as having a role to play and rehabilitating her image?

You know I come from an NGO background and how we go about interviewing survivors of sexual violence.

What have you decided consent process that we go through and what I did was make very clear to that.

You know no matter what I think all my personal opinions are through the Monday to the BBC and how we work it will be a fair interview and I will always agree, but I will always be fair.

I also it's fine to her with very different to news for example.

So I'm not looking to do a 1000 word piece or A5 10-minute interview.

We are doing something that will go on for days hours.

You know it will be long form and we will have the ability to look at everything she says and put contacts around it and I think that was quite appealing to her and I will say during the course of our conversations.

There are certainly times where she is trying to conceal things from me, but there are also times when she is potentially being honest to a detriment to her.

I would say as well for example saying things like I was in love with the idea of going.

That's an admission that I think not many people would it back let's have a listen to what she told you about? Why should you ain't Isis I mean it is a huge decision when you are 15 years old to go and join Isis she was at the time you want to buy a community which I do not feel like talking.

That's one of the Producers investigative journalist your part of your role.

Involve getting form.is members Isis members to talk to the BBC how did you do that? How did they do that I mean to talk to the BBC it? Was it was a long process.

I mean trying to figure out who she knew or whom.

I have known her who's connected to her that in itself was.

A process we were trying to piece together who could have seen her somewhere very little is known about her time in Syria and so the canvas was really wide we like a leak of thousands of pages of Isis forms for example and then we would look through those forms to try and find names that are potentially came in at the same time as her husband to verify her story story and trying to see anyone who might have crossed paths or been at the same place as her or visited the same locations.

I mean there was one actually really unexpected event where we were trying to figure out.

Where do women from Isis you know hang out or how can we talk to them and I'm a completely unrelated for the women's and geo event was going on and I said why don't I just go and see who's from the community who could lead me to somebody who used to be in rocker at the time and bacon was there.

And completely by chance I ended up sitting next to a woman who was win the Islamic state and had actually seen her a couple of times.

I'm an internet cafe of luck, but also being in the right place at the right time because of you making a decision that and I think you also do we were in the neighbourhood trying to figure out who might have known shamima a few people from the neighbourhood said to us that this woman could potentially know who were looking for but she still connected devices.

We had the urge to initially want to go speak to him immediately but we had to kind of hold back and then really figure out ok? What are we going to do? What are we going to say to her and what we do if this goes wrong and so

We did go back what kind of had a plan and I initially she was actually fine, but when I started asking her about specific names started to get me and we kind had to do so just because I just wanted in terms of making the the podcast in the series.

Did you ever consider the backlash? You know why does she deserves a subject over in a minute baby saying why on earth is a BBC wasting money giving Terrace the platform.

I can understand people towards this I think I would say to that is obviously you know going to this.

I knew that would be back like this was in 2015 humongous story in this country in 2019 again when Shima Begum emerge from the Ashes of the Isis caliphate.

She was catapulted back into me again Hughes story so you know what's going to happen, but what I would say is no point before this has anyone ever had access to shamima begum's what she says full of.

Where is team of investigative dermatology my brother producer and I and we have meticulously picked apart what she's told us to find out what she's lying what she's hiding when she's telling the truth and we do a time when she is fighting to come back to the UK not even the British government have been able to have the same level of access to shamima Begum that we have so I think that probably is quite an important public service at this moment.

Do you think do you think you ever got to the truth of her story story is so varied a new ones.

I think we got to a lot of Truth yes, but I would also say to you.

There are definitely times worse shamima.

Begum is the only person who knows the ultimate truth so for example.

We are fairly confident that the man that shamima Begum live with is was an Isis armourer somebody who handed weapons weapons to Isis members.

I can't be definitive in that but I'm fairly certain that's true shamima Begum is the person who knows the ultimate truth that you must have spent a lot.

In these sorts of errors of journalism what you do spend a lot of time with somebody you become close to the do you see her as a friend what what is your feeling about my interview lots of different people from all walks of life and I never become my friends because it's important to have the the space but what I would say you do get to know a person and you try to have a sort of willingness to hear them out.

It's important.

You know and I'll come at this.

I should say from the perspective of somebody who has spent years interviewing survive devices crimes.

It's not the same but myself I'm full of shrapnel from an Isis suicide bomber to the brutality of this group is not lost on me.

I would say that shamima Begum is Innocents three people is the 15-year old girl who left London packing mint aero chocolate naively cos she thought it was important for a war zone.

She is the girl who had a formative years and a terrorist and has that Blunt single mind.

Comes with that and she's also a woman who has spent four years reflecting on her decisions in a prison camp and the loss of her three children and all of those personalities pirate and the conversations I have that I suppose that means that people in a sense and he's watching television programme is listen to make their own mind up about their views of her because we've had so many different things about it who this person totally and each of the two things offers something different and the podcast has far more detail shows are working shows the level of detail and film offers a set of more concise story.

Ok.

Thank you both for coming on just Baker and Sara of that you can find a shamima begum story on BBC sounds the TV documentary is on BBC iPlayer Aaliyah we heard from GB news chief executive and professor Liz how I'll be back at the same time next week.

Thank you so much for listening goodbye.