Read this: China and the Information War

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 now back in 2018 the Chinese President Xi Jinping said wherever the readers are wherever the viewers are that is where propaganda reports must extend their tentacles 7 years later in a hearing in Washington recently the CEO of tiktok repeatedly tried to offer reassurances that the app which is owned by the Chinese company bytedance doesn't pose a security threat America but the questions about TiK ToK on going away Nora questions about how China is trying to deliver president she's ambition to see China's narratives amplified by media and technology around the world and in this edition of the media show we're going to look at that ambition now first of all with the help of you and yang Europe China correspondent with the financial time to us.

Based in Beijing of the FTSE Bureau chief for several years now based in London and here in the media, so studio is her age and my colleague and editor of BBC News China yuan, Howard both of you.

You're very welcome to the programme you and if I could start with you.

How would you outline China's Media strategy and its ambitions, so there's been a really big push particularly after the us-china trade war in 2018 for Chinese state Media employees not just to speak to a Chinese audience using the controls the environment within China but increasingly to reach out to an English-speaking audience into a foreign audience more widely including on foreign social media platforms like Twitter that are in fact that are banned in China and what's the baganza? I think pushes now turned towards is this idea of providing different now tattoos including somewhere argue and information on.

China's role in the world this comes at a time when China's global investments in China global partnerships world is increasing and China's web Conjuring narratives of a fear of China's rides and so how would how would you categorise the overall strategic goal? What does China want this beyond us seeing the world and its way, I will I would like to quote present shooting pain here comrades.

Tell the China story and tell it well.

That's what he told in front of a wide audience in CCTV the parent company of cgtn as well as when you visit the shingles and all the apartir and the state-run media.

That's the main message like the soviets before like all the autocratic governments in history.

They want a narrative like you just mentioned that put the party leader and the country and all the policies in good light and to conquer all the narratives that may put the country in a slightly more.

They don't want to see only the BBC all the likes of seeing you know the u.s.

And British what they call the anglosphere media dominating the right to speak so they don't want that and they're trying to do something about that and you and in the last few years, what has the Chinese state done to try and seize control of the The Global

About China last decade and has been increasing Investments of Chinese state Media across the world and I think China's David in partnerships in African country this particularly notable saw them quite successful.

Some of them have been much less successful and china state Media incursion into Europe have also been quite notable for the fact that in the UK has rejected by gtn.

Which is the main foreign state at the main find facing state broadcaster in China because of its control by the Communist party now continues to Wolverhampton to Europe with a French licence, but that is also been discussed at in France as awkward as a topic of concern and since that investment has been escalating Howard can we see how the money is being spent a shift in where the emphasis is in the strategy I can see there's more emphasis on social media for sure and just anecdotally you see more.

Approach Nina and the European looking YouTubers as well as on Twitter and many platforms more more people who were from they say UK US Canada Australia all of a sudden are.pro China a voice and look at me.

I'm just like you but you are not been told that so I'm telling you the whole story it's not like that in xinjiang that your buttons are really happy and all the dissidents.

There's other criminal issues going on so these messages have amplified and pushed out by trying to avoid being a racist white Europeans on Chinese social platforms.

Why are you picking those people you say your concern to mention race but then you do mention race.

Why are you why you picking out direction of the from the Chinese perspective their target audience?

You not talking in Chinese audience with these people because Grace is an important factor for the Communist Party in its own presentation of public relations and communications that are orange and a furlong time in Beijing and it's no secret in their foreign community that when I find Genesis Chinese heritage are sent to press conferences that important political events often Chinese government offices would ask you do you have a Western face that you can send it by which they mean a white face because they would like to see a white journalist here filmed.

I think officer came down and make-up play When the Chinese state Media broadcasters look for white American or European accented speakers in the media videos to try to speak to what they imagine as a Western audience describing their also here in the media show studio is Sean Haines Who

At the Chinese state news agency and Newswire services also worked at China daily the Chinese government's english-language newspapers for joining us.

Just tell us your experience of thing for those two Media outlets.

Thank you.

Thank you for inviting me a lot of that was ringing true.

I was trying to keep quiet because I was nodding in giggling along but yes absolutely so the period that I was in China was between 2016 to about the Hong Kong protests about 2019 and we change you know she is so when I joined xinhua news agency the official mouthpiece of the party you have to be said all news through China even the bigger than Media organisations when it comes to political meetings take their text literally from which is why I joined them because if you could be in.

Cancel start at the top you see yourself as a journalist.

Oh, no, I had no background at all but I mean I study media at university, but now I worked in local government in the UK what did you do it for love basically so I met a girl move to China she had a job there and so I'm a holiday and I thought if I'm going to be in this place.

I'm as well experience the country is closest possible and to the point that Howard and you and we're making did you feel that your presence within a Chinese Media organisation that she had extra currency because of the fact that you were British I'm a face.

That's how we call ourselves so I I knew I got in because I'm from the time 6 minutes on white have broadly neutral accent increase my pay packet.

Did you feel uncomfortable about that playing that role? I did.

And I try to advocate for my from my colleagues and so these people have more talent than I do but they want ultimately me on camera and at some point.

Did you decide I can't do this or you decided to move away for other reasons as well, so I was there for 230 years and I looked in my colleagues around me and I felt I was a slightly more political aware than some of them, so I thought at least by being on the inside I can nudge slightly and tamper and taper some of the worst excesses of what I saw In One Direction Another organisation as we hearing were also joined by Howard chang from BBC News Chinese and yuan Yang from the Financial Times that's also bringing Joshua classic these author of beijing's global Media offence.

Mine is an even campaign to influence Asia and the world Joshua thank you very much indeed for joining our discussion.

I'm wondering if you can help me assess where this is work best because I know the title of your book you describe China's campaigners uneven.

So, where is it works and where is it struggled? Well? I think it's worked well in taking over Chinese language video virtually all over the world including in the UK Canada and many other places where there is almost no independent Media left either through Chinese actual state actors buying in six or local citizens of the countries buying up those Chinese properties in the US are Australia v.

UK Canada how many places in Southeast Asia where there are a lot of times? I was changing the content.

Probate and basically all the independent reporters in coverage, so that's been very successful.

I think that she GTM and china radio International to bigsby media outlets have not been successful.

I'm typing have a range of Gallipoli teen showing that they have mineral audience share the TV the primary TV network and that that doesn't even include places like the United States and Britain and Australia whichever actually being there for the limitations on whether I do think that she has the possibility to be incredibly influential and that is because it shouldn't what is a news.

As a result of its audiences consume acid, we rather than saying I'm going to turn on cgt and I'm going to turn on channel radio into a result content-sharing agreements with news outlets all over the world including very good news outlets in developing countries and some in the countryside getaway and so what you should know I should also say is cheaper than Bloomberg riders and his maid often lead to certain developing countries and so she was getting picked up as copy in quality publications.

I can't I let everybody publication.

No use a xinhua azcopy is often not attributed or it's attributed with light at the end of it and so it shouldn't what is increasingly.

Picked up and used even have the Chinese state propaganda Channel centrally when were talking about Chinese efforts to control narratives in local Media regional global Media that a desire to control a narrative or does it go further that does it turn into disinformation where the Chinese are various sources pumping clearly incorrect information into the information ecosystem, but I mean you're with the with the values that I hope there's a journalist I say that something that is clearly disinformation and now as soon as agree with that but the construction of what genus does that do according to the Chinese state Media is very different from my contacts in of journalism in an Anglo-Saxon writing in a British contacts if you're just ruining in we're talking about.

China's global Media strategy excuse me with her for gas Joshua Clancy the author of Beijing global Media offensive you and yang who just heard from from the ft.

How to change from BBC News Chinese and also John Haynes you work for the stage Chinese state news agency in Newswire service and ensure that we go onto some other ideas on what to ask for.

Love you about you know we heard there an illusion from you and yang the she has concerned about the content coming out of some people who work there may disagree when you were there was everyone quite open about the fact that this wasn't as some people might expect it all the others.

He said no.

We are we doing proper work here and that this criticism is in Justified yeah, there is there is an awareness, but really I think you've got to look at the staff in work there so again.

It's not really a media organisation is a government organisation and so a lot of a never been abroad.

Wider scope of a shorthand so I would handpieces back that would I would feel would be overly propaganda and wouldn't be swallowed by to North Korea and so is the back slightly experienced and critical minded to take me to John Lewis know very well the next game at the in know how to pitch to the editor to get the white line that will please the political secured creditor.

They know how to travel I know how to produce the package professionally and while I've been extremely competent and very good journalists who came through the state Media machine but had very few other outlets in which they could do that work because independent timer is highly restricted as a Chinese national is very difficult to join me don't forget to find me all the word starting to do that happened in different Media organisations, so you have to.

What is the alternative for somebody who wants to produce journalism.and is born in China thank you very much indeed when the CEO of tiktok appeared in front of us lawmakers, but before we get to that a couple of you have alluded to Russia is our conversation has gone on and I wonder as you observe China's efforts to shape Media narratives vs.

Russia's efforts where you see the difference is Howard I'll start to say the Chinese learn their trade from the Russians from The Soggy that's Sydenham fact all the Chinese communist propaganda theorists and their original model came from the Soviet period and they say that carefully how do you flood information field? How do you bring wash people all these are theoretical and of course there is go back quite a few years now and do some.

So they're going to be out of date in some ways.

If not that they do modify adapt as we learning is Chinese Communist Party learning from Russia Today rather than Rushes past you mention Russia today.

I think that's a model.

I don't need to but you pick me up on it.

I have to say I had many conversations in private with colleagues or you know people who work in Chinese state Media they do raise with an example of Russia today, they all say yeah, we really wish look at them they spend a fraction of the money.

We do some how they can reach so much wider audience so I want to understand that jealousy Joshua if I can bring you in why do you think that these Chinese people who are speaking to a jealous of what the Russians are achieving with Russia today or with our tears? It's been rebranded.

I actually have to disagree a little bit.

I do think they're running from Russian disinformation, but I think China could never have.

A channel as a bective is Russia today or Al Jazeera which are the two of us miles of authoritarian state Media outlets that have been affected one Russia today at it's peak was great adding Persian wild conspiracy theories that have been injected into the public bloodstream all over the world do that because it's shit Media lizard to top-down 202 propaganda.

Disick as ancient as information and it's because the difference I would argue between state propaganda on the one hand watch the Chinese need to do and disinformation.

That is when you have the platform you've got the whole station got the microphone.

You're telling everyone you're through loudspeakers what you want people to believe you can do all you need to do is to repeat that many times.

Disinformation is a bit harder in some way because you need to enter into a pre-existing conversation so in that case I was giving you to understand the role of the commentator and roll of conspiracy.

Theory is on the flat rights and where does my playing to an overlap with their own interests and then you can then inject something into that existing discourse and Chinese state Media I've left my other KPR is all the targets that are you meant to achieve in the state Media set up to please the big boss is back at home in Beijing rather than people abroad or even have any can reflect the impact of your abilities to go viral was it influence the dates abroad absolutely the audience.

It's party members.

It's your Bosses on the issue of disinformation and the use of bots to sometimes push this information what we were talking before we started the program.

You were saying that you're seeing a huge.

Rising Chinese boards Twitter YouTube and Facebook and many even the Instagram and many many WeChat forget about each other just fall off this information on WeChat social platform inside internationally about Ukraine all of a sudden there was this train crash in the USA chemical train derailed all of a sudden you got thousands of thousands of people commenting so you fake news BBC you guys.

So how come you're not talking the US for not reporting this news and I wouldn't have happened 4 years ago not all of a sudden wave of Commons and the people posting somehow saying you are not reporting on the real tragedy by you somehow focus on your

I'm just coming well.

We've come this far without really getting into tiktok.

We can't go any further because of course is one of the reasons that everyone has been focused on China and us relations with regards to the there was this congressional hearing the CEO of tiktok appeared.

He got a grilling from both Democrats and Republicans and the Chinese state has repeatedly push back saying this is one of many quotes I could you do US size provided.

No evidence or proof that tiktok threatens US national Security but we very much her those concerns in that congressional hearing you and more broadly should we see the tiktok story as part of the broader story we've been discussing to the last few minutes or is it something quite separate? I think it's quite separate and I think that's quite good because the relationship the Chinese state and B dance TiK ToK is nowhere near as close as the relationship between the Chinese state which directly controls the media to wire CCTV on CT and so on so I think those that it is an analogy there between.

Chinese control state media are being the parties Media belong to the party is family there really is it is typing it is the same thing and control over an essentially private company.

I think it's a bit of a red herring also leads to the Simpson generational wrists and disconnect between the users of tiktok who are predominantly in gen z and millennials and the politicians with that man who has themselves and don't see what's actually on the platform and how it I'm sure you were sitting here in new broadcasting house or broadcasting house with your BBC News Chinese colleagues watching that congressional hearing what you making of it.

What are you making at the level of concern from the Americans yeah for me the Trojan Wars argument eventually in a Juventus state of potential hostility that may have some truth to it, but other than that I totally agree with you.

The different argument compared to the state Media propaganda campaign but if there's no more trust between two countries are having that much data held by another country is company that's the potential threat all the time.

Love you taking me and taking everyone listening through this I'm going to finish the program by asking you to get your crystal balls out a little we've been talking about Chinese Media strategy of the last 5 to 10 years, but I wonder what we think is coming next because Joshua's looking at one estimate the Chinese have been spending 10 billion dollars a year is that sustained.

It is sustainable.

What do you think? I'll be spending that money on Bravia power, but I think we're going to spend money on making a globally competitive Newswire maybe now you know the times of London but in many parts of the world where she will become the does copy.

That is first picked up incest the news agenda.

I need to spend a ton of money on on trying to use influence universities in civil Society through developing countries and money and promoting their model of sort of inter Walled Garden internet which is only haven't gotten into here, but it's something from the morning to a lot of countries and one that has become increasingly popular monitoring regime since the last couple of weeks this idea of the internet splitting into a different global zone become more and more high-profile as a possible outcome of this Media battle that we've been discussing you and what about you? How do you see this evolving? Where do you think the Chinese want to spend their money the most? I think I've read him something to watch this the interplay between the statement China and commercial independent self-made me then social media in China for the reasons discussed Chinese takeaway.

It's very top down it produces packages that speak to people that in my grandparents generation who like the predictability of the 7 news, what comes first and second and third it does not speak to my generation generation or gen z and that would be an increasing Challenge for state Media to speak to younger audience not in China but around the world so how they are how they managed to Co-op till work with independent contractor writers who produced the match match mobile means much more snappy headlines will be an interesting interplay to watch before I asked you how it Sean I just quickly ask you when you are in shin in Beijing did you have a sense that you were right in the middle of one of the most important Chinese institutions in terms of how it positions itself in the world because he listens to you and listen to Joshua another that's why it's heading will put it this way.

We had a army regiment on on the office campus we knew it was lunchtime when they saying that patriotic songs.

In the world, where is where does Lydia fit into that equation do I have to bring the audience back to the original reason gets rid of all these propaganda machines is to preserve.

It's like a self Preservation Society to preserve the power of the Communist Party and the current regime of luck to do that.

They have already secured the Chinese sphere, so they've overwhelm like Josh management.

They've overwhelmed all the Chinese language Media save totally taken over so they will lose and now the restricted mode on the information flowing out of China through the firewall that also going in and trying to search into Chinese archives becoming increasingly difficult now.

So they are securing their own ft mean well.

They're trying to push out.

That's their strategy and so far I can't.

Any way of defeating that yet unless the whole world somehow figure out a concerted effort as well leave it.

Thank you very much indeed to have a Jag from BBC news, please the Joshua Clancy author of Beijing global Media offensive to you and yang Europe China correspondent for the Financial Times and to Sean Haines who's been describing his time working for the Chinese news agency.

Xinhua and an addendum to our discussion, we did invite you to join us, but they declined do remember you can listen again to today's programme on the BBC Sounds app, you can also watch It on the BBC news channel 4 on BBC iPlayer this weekend.

Thanks for listening.

Goodbye.