Read this: The BBC Presenter Story

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts and Katie razzall and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 now.

I'm very conscious that some of you have heard quite enough for nearly a week on and the BBC presenter story is still developing and there are still questions for us on the media show to ask the story began in the sun and with new angles everyday the sun has been keeping so what does it tell us about the influence of tabloid still holds on public discourse in Britain and what value does scandal still have for a tabloid to help us answer these questions and more I've got a panel season John Lewis Jane martinson J counter Camilla Wright and James ball and Persephone bridgman, Baker one of their close friends from Catterick is with us and if there's time at the end of the program.

I'm going to ask about something completely different because in a previous life James worked as the in-house journalist for WikiLeaks and recently he's come under pressure from the US authorities to help them with their prosecution of Julian

Which is an extraordinary position for a journalist to find themselves in the BBC presenter story let's start with Camilla who is the founder and editor of pop a weekly newsletter always full of tales of alleged celebrity impropriety Camilla welcome to the media show this sort of story used to be a staple of the tabloids a high-profile establishment wrongdoing is private life now being picked up part.

It's the type of story that in their heyday made the red tops very very profitable but will the sun have made any money out of this one.

Do you think Hi Katie it's really hard to judge this but my guess would be it's not being done for Economic reasons.

I mean the old days when people would go out and rush to buy a newspaper is not how it's going to be looking to get their news from this particular scandal people are getting you through it made me through social media to link their friends ascending.

From nothing and as soon as somebody like the same publisher destroy everybody else on the internet.

Copy zip so I can't see the sun is going to be making money out of it, but we're doing is there making sure they still have elephants are they showing that they have an important place in the media ecosystem that perhaps everybody thought that they lost.

What do you make the fact but go to publish without revealing the name of the presenter because I think there's something popbitch you been doing it for years.

You call it the blind item technique.

I think yes, it's but it's a long way you doing a two or three Lines about somebody blind and making it the front cover of a of a newspaper making at the headline of a huge Legacy operation like this.

Can you explain what that means I guess what it means is that you have a story about somebody and either you don't want to you.

Can't name them for for various reasons either.

Sometimes because the name of the person is far too boring to be put out there, but obviously not in this case and the various reasons of law or public phone sometimes.

You don't want to put information out there that would be difficult troublesome for a person to to the deal with I guess in their career and I getting this case.

It's mainly on privacy reasons are it is become very difficult with the privacy laws.

That is now to really bad name people in tableau.

Story said once it's done and I think what may be behind the sun and other people's reticence on this is the case that the biggest with their Cliff Richard in which he was named and helicopters were sent up to the police raid on his house and think that the newspapers.

Play Bridge now be very reluctant to put somebody's name out there have changed over time and we probably will talk about it a bit more later, but I just wanted in terms of the specific story you think the sun has been drip feeding what they have on the presenter in the whole thing is an absolute mess to be honest.

I think the sun were perhaps unwise to the pub with only third-party information as we knew we know that night of the present and other young person involved gave him the story but at the same time of the parents have gone to them with the story and they didn't publish I think they're putting a brake difficult position.

I think it's difficult for the BBC to her done very much about this because it's somebody presenters personal life and I think at the moment we're all in this kind of impasse where nobody really knows what to do the story is out there everywhere on social media but not on normal media and of course I didn't lie.

Yeah, we did invite the sun to join us today, but they declined they said our leaders and coverage speak for themselves.

I'd like to bring in Persephone bridgman, Baker partner at Castle rock and she specialises in media and privacy law hello.

I mean looking at the first or the Sun publish last Friday if the presented didn't co-operate as Camilla was saying and so father son hasn't publish anything to indicate if sponsored from him.

Does it make it even more legally dangerous for the sons of publishers name because they can't be sure which bits of the story the presenter would deny.

Yeah, so there are 38 and as reference by camila and an individual whose aspect of a criminal investigation or even Estate body investigation and query whether the service broadcaster is a crazy and has a right to anonymity in that investigation while it's ongoing until there's a point of charge.

If I'm through and Daddy alligators, inevitably would be if they were untrue what published about an individual's name.was identifiable and the sum of the opening sells up and potential label seats as well as well.

You really want to make sure that you will be before you publish and speaking to one of the ways to do that because there is an editorial in the sun this morning which is why the sun was right to publish his son story about the BBC presenter was in the public interest and this is beyond dispute now.

So they're suggest that you know public interest was there.

Would it be in the public interest with they have an interest defence the publishers name? Well, they they may do we don't know what the sun has we don't know what the sun seen and that's quite a big hole in this story.

We also don't know.

Has been hit on the BBC but we don't know what the BBC weather in May so difficult enough at the moment about the allegations.

Yes, I'm in the BBC of the director-general Tim Davie came out yesterday and said they thought they were serious allegations.

When it when they were first sold in May as someone has been definitely say we have been definitely kept in the dark are in the dark about what the evidence actually is it does seem to be the case but the original story around the exchange of images of the 18 isn't supported by the young person who's because they're lawyer wrote that letter, which I was talking about on Monday night on the news saying the allegations were rubbish from your perspective if this doesn't have the support of that young person does it make it difficult for them to defend everything in their story should litigation never take place.

It doesn't make it very difficult.

It's also been told.

Young persons lawyer WhatsApp the sun on Friday night to say that the story was rubbish, so I'm going to make it very difficult to the sun if they've got the what took place in 30 years ago allegations of an older fame and having explicit interactions with young people would have been enough quite likely on their own to be front page news for the sun if they haven't been the additional Factors in this story how the BBC dealt with the complaint of criminality around the exchange of images because of the age of the young person which first emerged I think in the Sunday Times would the son of gun for this you think I think he would have but I think it's the second just said it does complicate things a lot but the person involved the young person involved is not cooperating and says the story is not true.

This is like a kitchen towel without the Kiss and Tell person kissing and telling so it's it's very much a kind of very very dark and turkey, but I think someone's parents then you getting it done about it as I said makes it very difficult for them all on the face of it.

This is a story about us and parenthood deeply troubled about what happened to their child and I'm trying to protect their child and put the BBC let them down.

Can I just bring in Jane martinson J Cantor and James Ball he will have experience of getting big stories over the line Jane start with you professor at City University columnist for the Guardian Media registered there.

I mean the story is being talked about up and down the land as I understand it people do want to know who the person is, what does it tell us about the influence of some still has this course? Yeah, I mean stories that there's always make you think a bit like Mark Twain reports of the tabloid newspaper industry to my the match exaggerated.

What's interesting about the snoring away is the sun's influence on the BBC and another Media outlet, so when the sun and Camilla mentioned you know mentions on online know whether there's some sort of you know gossipy thing in popbitch the sun put it on its front page several days in a rose wasn't just one front page and makes a big splash and the as soon as the sun went to the BBC it was escalated.

It was immediately sent up the line to Tim Davie the presenter was suspended.

I mean that's direct power and Influence I was agree with with the others have spoken in terms of a story of this important sand and we don't know enough about exactly what happened.

I mean I think the original story with the sun has back on was at these explicit images were sent when this person was 17, which would be legal that seems to have changed and as you say the young person has denied it.

Not sure if it has changed.

I'm not sure if they've read back on it or not, but let's see what the what the young person has done is sent that denial in which we can there's a bigger discussion here and I need to know exactly what happened lots of victims.

Don't feel that they were victims of the £35,000 that they were alleged to have received.

I think of a bigger is she goes well? Why would they not put at least of denial legally that would seem that presumably that's exactly why they can't put the presenter's name in either and Jake investigations deadline.

How do you assess this and brought in terms of how much influence the tabloid newspaper The Sun still has everyone's incredible story of the Unknown questions.

I think as far as the sun is concerned they've got the BBC exactly where they want them the BBC is in the dark over its Handling of this issue.

There is clearly a major.

Being scrutinised and there could be significant questions about his conduct and the other thing that we have touched on here.

Is that the sun is part of the media ecosystem News UK and that ecosystem is extremely good at amplifying its own reporting and so you have the front page of the sun and then that is talked about endlessly in the outrage machine that is talk radio and Talk TV and then you have politicians who work for that new station someone like Nadine dorries commenting on the stories in the BBC not doing enough here accusing the BBC of a cover up and say this all works in the favour of music a and as I say they've got the BBC exactly and that from someone who used to work at the time.

So you know there's an insider's perspective by James Ball you were the global editor for the bureau of investigative journalism until earlier this year.

Did you ever publish a massive allegation about?

Revealing their name.

What do you make of this blind item approach if you like? I think it's got to be the approach of last Resort I think firstly if you're the purpose of Interest journalism in the sun is insisting it's that is to sort of short accountability where all the channels have failed and even with the complexities of privacy law you can often name when there is no overriding public interest the Financial Times recently investigated Crispin odey and named him and managed to have thanks to the people who came forward and they did that they didn't have to do a blind item about a hedge fund there are occasions when you have to sometimes if it involves criminal allegations you need to especially if they've been we've done ones on domestic violence within the police and people have been very nervous about being identified and so to protect the victim you don't name the alleged.

And is also a lot of complexities if there are allegations that the law may have been broken with regard to sexual offences and this is where you get into a really difficult it's actually the journalist who breaches this identifies the victim of a sexual crime can themselves go on the sex offenders register? It's a very serious offence and so if there are around that.

I'm not there.

I've not said there are necessarily this case but this question this questions over the picture of a 17-year old that would lead to a further set of reasons to ID sorry too quickly and you try not to because especially in a case like this where it's a high-profile group BBC presenter.

You know people know who it does start off a game of online whack-a-mole and that is an absolutely no one's interest in the story but was completely inevitable Camilla about the law.

Call says about privacy J counter in has there been a chilling effect on journalism in the past 10-years and travel journalism parts particularly in this regard.

I think you'll soon the evidence of that right before are very what is the factor this presenter is not being named and is shrouded in mystery and that is proving to be a source of frustration that potentially members of the public you're seeing the effect of case law play out as I say right before my eyes and Camilla you do this sort of journalism minute and as you say a few lines often should a what what is the wackum old thought I think we've got two parallel and separately my media ecosystems at the moment one which is like the Legacy media and anybody that is I get under Media law can't do it.

Can't do anything can't blame anyone and look kind of a bit weird in a bit powerless where she got the other media system.

What is not regulated as it was seen by any Media law where it's basically everybody disgusting things as if there are no laws.

Everybody's talking to their friends on different social media about case you look back to them after it's go for your case.

It was just the same way so many elements will never allowed to be mentioned in the the media but were everywhere else so I think we haven't really got any chilling impact on certain elements of the medium, but what is done is created another world and it's anything goes without saying we be jealous of repeatedly said BBC News reporting is independent of the BBC as an organisation and that we're working to cover this.

Just as any other news organisation is I wonder Jake and how well you think that's understood incredibly meta when the BBC Reporting on itself.

Can you put me on the BBC I think you can have debates about the level of coverage that the BBC is giving this issue, but I think the principle of the BBC scrutinising self is a commendable and it's something that should be celebrated and more power to the BBC and holding itself to account and I mean not mentioned at the start of the show I was conscious that lot of people probably sick of this story was your assessment for has the media lost the plot I think today on Radio anyway.

They're talking about the NATO summit and I think on TV they're still reading on this story on the BBC News what what's your assessment and it's funny I mean the number of anecdotal evidence of whether it's my own children.

Why are they leaving on the story when you know there's so much going on in the world you got people on WhatsApp saying is the NATO summit there's mortgages the economic disaster.

There's politics in all the bad news.

People like celebrity, I think Jake's point and it's been a great thing that the BBC will hold itself to account.

I think the danger of a story like this and we see this I mean really do we want four Today programme absolutely dedicated to the story not to be taken over to the story it does feel like sometimes it the BBC want so desperately to be holding itself to account that really hard time yeah so much to do that yeah, and then you know they've been stories in America which organisations haven't help themselves and on that note the BBC annual report was published yesterday.

It mended him out and about and did give interviews and obviously was mainly asked about this story Jake and I'm sure you're on the same virtual briefing as I was there any headlines in the BBC annual report which other?

You might be talking about today on the media show on a talent pay has gone up to a 6-year hi and I think that would be big news ordinarily some of the biggest presenters had pay rises and yeah.

This is an issue that exercise is audiences.

We know that it exercises politicians and the reason that the BBC gave for that 6-year high is because that fell during the pandemic.

I'm not sure that that's a that's a fantastic reason for for The Rise that we've seen but yeah yo the account the accounts that we see our full of great information about how the BBC spend his money and that's a great source of story for people like me and what jumps out of the annual report for you.

I sort of used the decline a much bigger Solitude then the other indicators 5% down and you've audiences down.

I thought I haven't said that 76% of 16 to 34 year olds actually watching or consuming some kind of BBC media was quite interesting.

I've been again from evidence my own 16-year old that's what I think that's the biggest challenge whatever happens with the story about the presenter trying to make sure that the BBC is a universal service for everybody in this country is rainbows open so many young people feel distracted by the kind of social media wearing facts anyone can be accused of anything without any any proper journalism going on a million the million fewer people paying the licence fee compared with 2028 counter.

Yeah, I mean look what I just said and what you just said, these are the real existential issues facing the BBC and the

If people are not engaging with the BBC then that's a future generation of licence repairs at the BBC will lose and that figure of licence for you refuse is only going to go up.

There was stuff in there on trust.

You know that high levels of people in a still trust the BBC but in terms of this story.

Do you know we can talk a lot about whether it will damage that Jane what would your assessment be of that? I just missed you in between there, but you did so this damaging levels of trust.

Yes is the annual report was talking about trust.

You know the fact that the BBC overwhelmingly remains the most trusted source of news for example in this country, but it does you no more broadly do damage to the BBC when you have a story about a BBC I think I think this story not I think attacks on the BBC by other parts of the media.

I mean I was interesting that was saying about that sort of loop with social media.

You see the mail for example put a front page about going out on the street and asking people in the street, where they are you know that if they know the name of the presenter of they think the BBC has handed it.

Well.

I think the BBC carries on doing really good work and great content and great journalism, then I think that kind of trust actually which has he says the highest of anyone in the country.

Is there not well in America audiences.

Love BBC news as well, and just me Claire's weekend talking about that that people can be sued.

I'm still not have listened to this well-known people can feed for making comments or speculating on social media, but I did promise you all listening that if there was time.

We would ask James Ball about this extraordinary position.

He found himself at the US authorities have been trying to get him to help the deposition of Julian Assange as long as your calls is facing extradition accused by the US various charges including espionage and hacking it all.

The WikiLeaks released in 2010 have a huge cache delete military documents James and he worked with Julian Assange on that tell us how it's caught up with you again and what's been happening because you've done it.

So yeah, I've had a sort of decade relatively untroubled about this this was the release where WikiLeaks briefly became a darling of the mainstream Media worked with the New York Times to go into spiegel and Co and all of those editors decided this was quite in the public interest and the abama Department of Justice actually declined to prosecute Assange say there wasn't a way to prosecute a sound Rover Diesel leaks that didn't threaten than you are x so the First Amendment right just remind people what sort of things so this was the collateral murder video that shows The Killing of two writers journalists in Iraq and then civilians who tried to help them as well by helicopter.

It was the Afghan war logs.

It was the inmate.

Guantanamo Bay that's really showed up the idea it was the worst of the worst sheds unprecedented light ok, so what's happened to you then so I worked with the sanjan.

I went public because I thought he was doing a lot of ethical things and because of what are the US would like me to testify in the case against him and they have stressed that voluntary but the first approach.

They made was a little bit strange and so you know I'm an experience of the flyer to know if someone asks you to voluntarily talk to the authorities.

He talk to a liar and sorry but I then essentially my lawyer taught them and got a very strange conversation where they thought they had a trump card over me and they were implying that the NSA and CIA looks me.

And I was using a fake name is why wouldn't you help with the enquiries if the US already thinking crimes been because we we knew when we publish this not just as you know it's the Guardian publishing Snowdon documents etc.

You are technically committing an offence and what you rely on the system to do is to trust the public interest of journalistic freedom but also the public interest and what's in there and it's very telling that they're prosecuting a sand but not any other journalists even though in instance.

They largely did the same thing as and went on to do other things later that would be a different matter and so whether or not you think the sound does a good man know whether or not you think Assange is a journalist clearly chilling journalism.

I mean I know it's chilling journalism because I'm legal advice.

I didn't travel to the US for 2 years and I've just read the book largely set in the US

Is it just you you think you've been approached by the by the police on behalf of the police on behalf of the FBI and doj simply three other UK journalists have all been approached head of transparency campaign David Lee who was the investigations editor of The Guardian Andrew O'Hagan who was sort of the growth of Assange all three of them said no they were approached a good year after I was and a little more gently Butt-head are in particular.

So it was just surprised you was talking and had two police officers brother her door and ask about a story should work done which did strikers pretty extraordinary.

So why do public on it now.

I thought once of the German this will being approached it starts to hit a point where my not mentioning it might actually detract from other people's ability to decide what to do.

I also had a point for work.

I just had to travel to.

If you cover a country, you do have to go to it sometimes, so you went to America having it avoided it and you weren't arrested for Himalayan delighted to say that I'm I was back safe, but my lawyers were sold of like well.

Don't seem because you were lucky ones you'll be lucky every time so it doesn't it's not game set match but hopefully the US won't be harassing me and how much is cost on the media show me things about the end about illegal for jealous, but quickly so I've spent about £10,000 on this which if you are a multinational publisher is not very much if you're me, it's a huge amount and I have really felt it somebody that will go on work or you know holidays otherwise well.

Thank you James ball.

And thank you to my other guests as well Jane martinson from City University Jake kanter from deadline Camilla Wright the founder of popbitch and Persephone bridgman Baker partner at Castle Rock don't forget BBC sounds of the place to rewind.

And find all the others thanks so much for listening good.