Read this: Reporting the Lucy Letby Trial

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome minute will focus on the Nobel Peace Prize winning editor of the Russian newspaper and have a gazeta and his efforts to keep his team safe and keep stories coming despite a tax on its journalist having to shut down the award-winning documentary maker Patrick Forbes about his new film about Dmitry muratov the first the trial of Lucy letby the last 10 months conclusion on Monday with Lucy letby receiving a whole life sentence for the murder of 7 babies and attempting to kill six other infants for a number of reasons this was a try unlike any that the media have covered before and we want to look at this from four perspectives including reporting restrictions.

You may not have known about and the police release.

Documentary first let's hear about how local news media cover the story Mark Waddington is senior editor for cheshire-live Mark thanks for joining us on the media show us about how cheshire-live went about covering this.

Thank you.

Thanks Wendy ends up being the biggest story in the world arrives on your touch.

It is at once great responsibility to try and cover it properly and also a significant challenge and we find obviously Media landscape is a very different place now in 2023 22 that work.

She was in 2018 when we have to think about the resources.

We have available on how we go about trying to make sure we provide our readers with what they need and

The period of trial we were relatively small team fortunate to have the other resources to draw United's of covering adulting anyone that you know any impossible to commit to a daily coverage of such a big case and having all media you find the same so you as a company we were able to maintain a presence there and that all those reported in Cheshire and the community to continue to nurture their contacts and understanding in a feel for the story locally and the impact it was having on the community and it when it came to the point of the verdict for delivered and the sentence that we were in a relatively unique position in the we are.

Paper-based in Chester at which the other two we have a website which is dedicated to Cheshire and Cheshire alone.

So when all the when it all came to it was not so much just to report the news that people could get from anywhere but to really honest the sensor angry and upset and I don't think it's too strong the word said the trail that people felt within the community that is served by this hospital and had up.

You know I've been so long before this case and will continue to serve it long after and and we find we were able to harness that anger and upset and and right perspective on the case you know not just the news and what happened, but you really give a sense of disappointed and frustrated with the apparent.

Attempts to stop her or failed opportunity missed opportunities along the way by those who were in charge of the trust and you know tomorrow our paper will be the first edition.

We've had Underdown and you know that is our opportunity as a title to to express how we know our community feel this case is to report the case your first edition is coming and we appreciate you explaining how the last 12-months and more have gone stay with this Mark there's a couple of elements of the story.

What ask you about the next we're going to turn the fact that we learning more and more about the restrictions that were placed on the reporting of some aspects of the trial was bringing Judith Moritz the North England and correspondent for BBC News Judith View cover the trial throughout and we know now that the prosecution applied for anonymity for some medical Witnesses who were colleagues of letby.

Can you explain that request for a student was the the anonymity of the of the babies that are parents their families that was agreed well in advance of of the case beginning but shortly before the trial started.

We became aware that the medical Witnesses out of them actually wanted to apply for anonymity as well now.

That is something which we resist at that time the Medics I should tell you felt that the reason for it because I each had individual circumstances, but they said that to be allowed in order to facilitate them giving their best evidence that without the funny limited.

I wouldn't be able.

To present themselves at the best ability and the I think all of them something majority indicated that they were suffering a range of of mental health impact as a result of being involved in the case and it was the dress and that the thought of anxiety that will be created through giving evidence in court that would be worse than should they not be protected that of its own right was not something that could just be waived through something that the media were given the opportunity to challenge and the BBC in a group of other media strategies of barrister to challenge this request just help us understand the arguments that were being made.

Yeah, so in total there were 9 Media organisations who joined together we were jointly represented and that again.

It's not unusual at first to do it that way because we all shared similar thoughts the BBC Sky News independent television news ITN reach Plc on behalf of the mirror the Express associated newspapers Daily Mail the Guardian the times at the sun Telegraph so it in other words essentially all of the the publishers of the main national and local press and broadcast joined together.

It was a nuanced argument on various fronts what we said essentially was that we had deep and concerns of the practical ability to convey the case now.

It's been accepted fully that the that the babies and their families were going to be an honest but that's in itself meant that we were already contending with.

Very good and very different reason I should say that that's on a limited application was handled separately to this I'm talking about the 8th Medics who were making their own application much later in the day, but because we were already going to be contending with a case which had 17 babies protected, so we were already talked about babies a2q, and the recipe for confusion and at the end of the day.

This is about open Justice and the reporting and transparency of a case which had huge public public interest we had a conservative will be a practical problem the more people became anonymous that we were looking potentially at other Witnesses doing this that that would be problematic and so we argued on all that and on other fronts including the sum of the mental health arguments up some of those Witnesses haven't supported their application with any medical evidence at all and and that was what was adding calls in the end of the trial.

What how were those arguments received?

Well at the trial judge Mr Justice Goss ultimately ruled in favour of the Medics and allow the anonymity although not in ASDA Conaway I think as he could have done so because at one stage.

I think it was a suggestion that we wouldn't even be able to report at the nature of their their jobs.

When they had worked at the Countess of Chester hospital with Lucy letby, and that would have made it very difficult and bear in mind as well that there are plenty of there were plenty of other medical Witnesses were not analysed in the case, so there was the recipe quality what the judge said.

I was just a little bit of his ruling was that he was satisfied that in the case of each of these medical Witnesses the quality of evidence would be diminished fear of Fear or distress on their part if they were identified to be open reporting principle of crime but also have the balance that with matters of human health.

Safety and welfare of any person in relation to who these restrictions and at the end of the day what he allows that we would be allowed to identify them as having worked at the hospital at the time.

I think we were even able to describe them as for example a consultant or registrar or a nurse but beyond that names and images of them and the detail was prohibited and just finally Judith could you put this in context for us? How unusual would it be for these kind of restrictions to be put in place?

Well in my experience of covering the courts these particular orders were unusual we are used to anonymity orders covering a victims of crime in certain circumstances.

It's a standard thing as you know for example for victims of sexual offences very recently.

I also covered the trial of Thomas Cashman who was convicted of murdering 9-year-old Olivia practical Berlin in Liverpool now that case there was a witness who was granted anonymity, but in that situation.

It was in order to protect her because it was argued that her a physical safety was at issue and that risk and we didn't challenge that so I think having this number of anonymity orders in relating to this kind of these are not expert Witnesses were Witnesses of fact who had been present colleagues of Lucy like they in my experience is unusual.

Judith thank you very much indeed.

That's Judith Moritz from BBC News the next aspect of the Lucy letby trial and verdict that we want to look at is the issue of whistleblowing within the national service and how concerned staff able to communicate with the media.

That's brilliant Steve Ford who's editor of nursing times and Steve of course you would have been covering the story in detail you also had a pain called speak out safely which promoted a pledge for NHS Trust to support staff in raising concerns tell us how that went yeah, so that was off the back in the mid Staffs scandal so the Francis report which it again different example but again clinicians to raise concerns and were ignored and we know what the results were so speak out safely was basically a response to that to try and encourage trusts to sign up to a pledge and say that they would essentially welcome whistleblowing or so.

Concerns anyway to use that phrase and take them seriously basically so we we drop a list and a pledge and publicly got these Trust to say they would do it and then the trust involved within also have that played on their own website as a sort of a reciprocal badge to make sure that they were also shown that to their staff at there was signing up to this campaign.

I was a run for about 5-years actually one of the longest campaigns have been involved with was was was very well received at the time and you know I said that mean I need to do something similar again, but yes and as you follow this trial.

What is it shown you and show us about the relationship between people within the NHS have concerns journalists who cover the NHS and then the trust themselves.

Yeah, I think it's funny.

It's brought two things to like one.

Is it again look?

Sadly over history since I've been reporting on on nursing and healthcare.

It's once again that the conditions have not been listened to or taken seriously opposite a crime so it's a tragic case but there are you can draw similarities with things like as candles like mid Staffs Morecambe Bay even go back to the 90s and the Bristol baby scandal there again.

It was people knew something was wrong, but they are the problems all the concerns were not says when does that message ever get through so that's one thing and secondly our for me.

It is around the current pressures so on and you've got policy documents at national level the various levels saying that patient safety is absolutely the most important thing.

You know we've got absolutely push for that at all.

In a similar way that they keep referencing the airline industry and and things like that, but then at local level we've got NHS trusts and particularly Foundation trusts and the ones that got more pendant essentially competing against each other for staff funding research projects, etc.

Etc.

So if concerns are raised within an organisation with the managers are are they concerned about brand security and under damage that might do to their patient or are they thinking first about patient safety and have we got a problem here with all the trust would say that patient safety is there a loot priority for the editor of nursing times.

Please say whether the final perspective on the media coverage of this trial.

We want to look at is what the coverage itself because of course has been a huge amount of news coverage, but journal.

Haven't been the only ones producing content about this Cheshire police has released what it's calling a documentary and it features The Detectives involved in the case is a little of it 3 in the morning Mr be open the door and yourself she complied was very subdued know that we were going to be getting charges.

No, I didn't didn't give me asking for charging advice.

Yes, I did and again.

I think that start with extra wait to get this right.

Well.

We have Cheshire police to take part in the program, but they said no one was available.

They did pointers to a statement which accompanies this hour-long film and the statement read operation hummingbird is our investigation into the is an attempted murders committed by Lucy letby.

Lot has been and will be written and broadcast by others but we want to bring you our side of the story with this documentary created internally by our communications team.

And with exclusive access to the investigation team and Mark Waddington from Cheshire live if I bring you back in here.

You're now in a situation where the police force your reporting on is also a competitor in terms of providing content on the trial.

Just not so long ago another Force has taken on activate taking on a role which it described as a journalist role within the force now.

We would say that yes journalists called working communications departments in police forces and understand that but when which forces are I've made no secret of the they are trying to enter the journalism.

I mean we is journalist mate.

You know we might sometimes even the people that doesn't mean when police officers employed people to be journalists consequences of our actions are the imperatives of them.

That's great, but I see.

Get into the realm of them talking about you.

No access well.

Obviously didn't have that access to mean who else could have it.

You know they are there on people.

I think that really what is more important for the force might do something like this in a very high profile case day today and I'm not speaking particularly about Cheshire police, but I think across the country during this know within the last few years for various reasons relations and the level of openness and trust between journalists and and lift forces has diminished to report it.

You could bring the local inspector.

They were talking about you know those days are gone then everything's been manage now, but if we bring you in here Steve who's editor of nursing times isn't it simply reality now that the

Because of social media in different digital platforms, it's possible not just for the police, but a whole raft of organisations and individuals in all sorts of different spheres to attempt to communicate directly with people rather than journalists.

Yeah, certainly I'm in a lot of a lot of leaders for example you can within Healthcare from my own.

Are you can see talk directly now to people on social media by putting out their statements their first before you actually get sent a press release or or to hear about it, which obviously can be you can try to circumnavigate the traditional Media route which is obviously what we're doing as a nursing times.

We're talking to nurses and so there is an aspect of that but I guess so it is a way of it was also helps us generate important stories by getting information from leaders via social media rather than having to perhaps go through communications team press officers things like that and obviously you can see the the staff all the people that the leaders are trying to talk to have a conversation with them.

So you know that that is interesting and gives us something else.

I would say and and finally Judith Moritz from BBC News if I could bring you in do you see a documentary to the phrase the police of used such as this and think will this is going to compromise your ability to access the police as mark is is expressing a concern about?

I think we are just in a very different place, then we were even just a few years ago.

It's not the first example.

I've seen of a police force producing their own content of what we've seen actually quite a lot of in recent years from other forces particularly from Merseyside police from West Midlands thinking examples going back to 2018 is of those forces doing their own interviews with victims of crime or with relatives of victims of crime on the basis that they are in control of those interviews and has been resistance to using that material by the BBC and ITV certainly to regional level on the basis that it is a problem because it is it removes our ability to approach with any of the toilet and independence, so it is a this is a grey area and a difficult one as I said we did ask Cheshire police to take part in our discussion and they told us no one.

Available on BBC News 24 from nursing times and Mark Wallington from Cheshire live, thank you very much indeed and sitting with the here in the media studio is Patrick Forbes is an award-winning filmmaker Patrick going to talk about Russia and the new film you just released at the moment, but what do you make of the police making their own documentaries? Well? I was I was worried that she because I saw it first of all it isn't a documentary because sure in One Sense they're telling what they saw as happening, but at no stage does any hostile or probing question come in and say but hang on was that it should you have done this should have done that and that I would just what Mark said earlier.

There's no sense in which there is any scrutiny in it and that I think he is indicative of a really worrying trend and and when it's as if he said, it's got exclusive well, of course.

It's got exclusive and it's bad news.

From my humble profession because the more police do that the less they going to want to have people like me around and I would argue possibly the self interest Lee that the British Public is not being served because you don't get all the characters like me going hang on what happened there and that's frankly all I lost the police included well that you're here to talk about a documentary that you have made it concerns the Nobel Peace Prize winning editor Dmitry muratov and his newspaper in Russia gazeta.

Just people listening who neither know the newspaper Dimitri give us an introduction to them both well Short Introduction here.

I defer to Kilmartin and he's sitting over there in a much better instruction is Dima is an ex paratrooper who had a very young age decide if you want to be a journalist, so as soon as he stop.

Play paratrooper the applied to a Russian state newspaper after a couple of years.

They only got fed up with state interference and decided to set up independent paper helped in part by little man figure called Mikhail Gorbachev who wanted a free and independent voice in Russia and that what is has been for 30 years and dema has been at the heart of it throughout occasion exhausted.

Always worried desperate to keep his people safe and well.

I was about to say but for now while he remains based in Moscow is newspaper can't publish isn't publishing in Russia and many of his colleagues to leave Russia you just mentioned one of them.

Let's bring him in Kilmartin office editor and chief novayagazeta.ru Europe and you're now based in Riga in Latvia

For joining us.

I just wonder what work you are still able to do outside of Russia compared with what you can't do inside Russia

Hello everyone, I'm glad to be here.

I think that it's quite hard to be journalists and generally speaking the main problem for us right now.

Is it Russian government to declare tax like a criminal group so we basically people in Russia banned from talking resource or like an OB Faith like is normal journalist, but we still have a lot of all chainsaw for navigate to report different as a people who can provide us stories from Russian and thus far is the helps people to see the real picture.

What what happened since you've gone to the right now.

I think it's this risks for those people who help us stories and the film in some detail documents the pressures that the genus within the newspaper under not least Carol who is featured.

Another journalist who we see in the documentary towards the end is Elena malygina because she suffers a really awful shocking attack while visiting yeah and that raised lots of questions about the pressures that jealous and now under in Russia battery absolutely I mean I mean it's a pressure that has always been on the VIA from the very start of it.

It is a those who don't know 6 of its jealous have been killed in the 30 years in which it has been in existence and killed by people hostile freedom of speech hostile to the ideals of Nirvana so unfortunately the reason attack on Elena malysheva is not the exception.

It is the rule and it shows the Lancs that people and the staff of the have to go to get the truth out and obviously that is a very very fine line and Will You

With which side of the line no, I mean there was no I wasn't because it was a it was a constant conversation about both which Channel 4 who are all back is here and we've never as to what safe, what's not safe because one of things that dear and I agreed as a precondition for making this film was we not put you in any greater danger and that's a really really obviously fundamental question for anyone in the media as you yourself will know as I will have to deal with on a daily basis and Carol is you see some of your colleagues still working in Russia do you wish that they were outside Russia with you where they would be safer.

Yeah, we can see so but you also have to remember that we still need to and then independent Media still need to report us inside your country right now like I said I don't have name.

They don't have a peaceful salaries and this is in a country like when you deal with dictatorship digital appreciate you joining.

Thank you very much indeed.

That's cool Martin off editor and chief of novaya.

Gazeta.

Europe Patrick Forbes very much indeed for coming in and your film is available via Channel 4 website.

I think it's called the price of Truth thanks.

Also to I guess earlier in the programme Steve Ford is editor of nursing time you heard from my colleague Judith Moritz at BBC News and we heard from the group editor of Cheshire live Mark Waddington as I often remind you at the end of the tradition of the media show you can hear this.

And they all of those which have gone before via BBC sounds but for now thanks for listening.