Read this: A rulebook for the web

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 now the Union back to says three-quarters of UK film and TV workers, it's spoken to a not currently working.

This is partly to do with the US writers and actors strike, but there are other factors to we're going to talk to bed to National secretary about them before that though.

We're going to get into the EU digital services act because despite.

It's reasonably dried title.

This is legislation has major consequences for how tech companies operate in Europe for the experience of consumers to and it could have knock-on effects for the UK as well, so we're going to work through it step-by-step and first of all that stuff beginning just learn about the EU digital services act and what it is.

Jennifer bakers going to help us.

She's a tech journalist based in Brussels Jennifer takers.

It's not what is it was its purpose purpose is really part of the EU wanting to export its ideas on how big tech should work and how the internet and Ola online English should be protected.

It's difficult to talk about the digital services act without referring back to the gdpr the privacy rules of a goddamn privacy will send the Americans like to cuddle, but the EU set up in the past and that was trying to protect their privacy online what they're trying to do now with this in very much the same way is protect us Against This information so what the digital service does is it set out a criteria for these very large online platform or very large online service engines and these are described as being more than 45 million active users in the EU the big companies that we all use everyday, but the ones we think about when we think about social media Facebook Instagram LinkedIn Pinterest Snapchat all of these.

19 different organisations are companies that have been listed as being the big platform.

So what they now have to do is they need to start taking into account any ai-driven any disinformation things like discourse around electoral processes know things like trying to hijack elections through fake news or deepfakes and they had to flag illegal content of a lot more onerous things to do than I've been getting away with it if you like in the past.

So this is what the eu's response is to this the thing is many of these big please when you think about Big tech naturally you think about Big us companies and so there's been a lot of allegations of America back, but I think we've seen in this new list we got Ali Baba and Express included as well as tiktok.

So maybe some of that allegations of us, but I don't really hold water anymore, but this is the EU plan to really rain in things like using sensitive data for

Didn't even using children's information for adjusting the idea that there will be a clamp down on all that sort of business model.

What does a fantastic primer stay with us Jennifer let's bring an atom is Rihanna from the New York Times at tech correspondent there Adam great to have you on the media show let's next look at the response of tech to this legislation that Jennifer's just described or do they make companies make of it?

What's a bit of seeing yourself with a ladder digital Palace you can feel very abstract in that your average person to understand.

How it affects our everyday experience with technology digital services act.

There's already been circle changes of the companies have made or to bring themselves quiet.

So you can go to a few of them, won TiK ToK Instagram for instance users in the region will now be able to block the use of data from being used to generate the video or social media you be able to have more of a just just get less of the Host that you'll probably see a lot of the new Instagram and that beat in more of just based on who you follow something else would be Snapchat and that would be stopped from targeting.

Ages ages 13 to 17 personalised ads in a way that Amazon has created new ways for reporting illicit or illegal products all these changes of the companies are making and it's sorted fits within a broader context beyond the digital services act is other regulations that are coming down the pipeline reporting other changes recently matter is considering putting forward a subscription service and which uses in the you would be able to pay for an ad-free experience, so would you 5 quid a month to have an Instagram experience that doesn't have ads in apps in response to some legal decisions and other policy.

Put out recent years in so it's interesting to see how these technologies are evolving because of my digital policy, but just so I'm clear atom would it be fair to say that big text? What's the goal of stopping this information stopping disinformation, but perhaps doesn't buy into the precise route the EU is taking to that goal.

I think that's fair.

There's certain prescriptions in the digital services act that the big tech companies do agree with put in some ways to digital services act also didn't go as far as some wanted it to in terms of being very prescriptive about defining a illegal contents of putting more bonus on the companies to identify and take down content of the rules and here centre on us the user you identify something and you Friday to the company and the company has a certain window of time in which must have to react as opposed to the company being more proactive it so there's a number of things around that with the given take out between the policy makers in the industry.

Ok, so we've heard from Jennifer about what the EU digital cert.

At is and how is the eu's new initiative to try and deal with misinformation disinformation and illegal content Adam you help us understand how the big tech companies are responding to this and how it is impacting on the products that many of us use next let's turn to the issue of enforcement.

How are these regulations actually being forced Nick seba is Deloitte global partner for internet regulation and I guess the first thing.

I thought when I was reading about this legislation Nick is does it have teeth does it have the ability to actually make sure these new regulations happen.

It's only does have teeth and it's been taken very seriously across all of the very large online platforms have been designated.

There will be feeling quite apprehensive this week as you know last week.

It went live and caring for these audits is quite a big deal.

Please new for these newly regulated entities to the no-one's really been happy with the status quo.

It's a long time.

I mean digital platform companies have had the worst of Both Worlds for a long time where despite all the investment and effort they put into around trust and safety they get back constantly and they've been playing for clearer guidance on content rules for a long time.

So this is whilst it's come quickly and it's some it's actually causing some challenges around getting ready for the oldest.

It's is no bad thing.

I mean your referencing these audits let's explain just part of the equation because the big shift here isn't tell me if I'm summarising this incorrectly is that up to this point lot of the responsibility for checking if big tech has been following expectations of regulars Has Fallen to the companies themselves now.

They have to bring someone else in to do some of that auditing for them.

Is that right so like the gdpr the DSA is a principles-based regulation where the companies themselves need to interpret the principles turn them into their own standards and then abide by their own standards and

Role of the auditor is to come in and make sure that the controls with these companies have put into place are being followed the big change which happened in June when the the European Commission published its off delegated act for audit is that it was made clear the order.

It would be throughout the period of the first year and it would be a reasonable Assurance audit which means that there is evidence required so that's a much greater of control and evidence than we anticipated.

Thank you and what we hearing from Nick Adam and Jennifer in different ways is why this legislation matters so much both in its ambition from the Union both in high-tech companies have to change how their products work and also in how tech companies are monitored.

How they are regulated and how independent businesses will now coming in to check if they're doing what is expected of them put all that together and you get us 2/4 part of the equation the business models of big tech however you still with us in the new.

Christo coworker author of a number of books on tiktok YouTube and other matters to do you think this legislation Chris has the potential really reshape how these big tech businesses work? I think it already is reshaping of these this work.

We were seeing platforms like TiK ToK like Instagram like a meta selves to try and meet the needs of the digital services act and in tiktoks case for instance completely ripping the heart out of what makes tiktok unique the the algorithm the computer code.

Get to know you individually and your interests and then serves you videos that you are believed to be able to like and that is now potentially being taken away from you as it's worth pointing out that users can just say no I still want the original flavour of tiktok in the same way that you get me options for diet drinks and and hard full fat Coke and things like that but the

Is there and the fact that they are doing that in response to this kind of legislative leave? I think shows quite house in different diseases and to bring us back to Jennifer and also to Adam and Nick Jennifer will know very very well the the companies involved year spend hundreds of millions of pounds often in getting more obvious to try and watered down these rules and so I think that they are still having to do this sort of stuff on essentially overhaul a business entirely and many ways is an indication of quite how much this has Keith and time is a huge lorry for them and it does have a meaningful difference to ask you a very boring and very very slow but ultimately it shows that the Tortoise and the hare bring you in to be a bit of a wet blanket here in and say that I'm a bit sceptical of the broader impact this will have at least in the near term.

The changes that I went through before in terms of the companies are making me around the margins in evenly.

Somebody changes their m is offering in terms of putting forward a paid option if they do there something you're going to see advertisements for on the Tube I think that's a way to play key regulators in overall.

This is going to come down in for two enforcement and the EU has it has a bit of a reputation for putting together digital policy that looks better on paper than it does in practise because of the imbalance between the regulatory muscle that's needed to enforce.

Somebody's rules compared to the armies of lawyers that companies have taken.

And I imagine that Nick and Jennifer have using what you've just said Jennifer let's start with you 100% and I also want to call back on that lobby and question you can't walk 10-ft here and Brussels about you a lot and a lot of them are what we call AstroTurf obvious that they're hiding behind these plant organisation but if you dig into who's funding them a lot of them are funded by those big tech companies and we will be seeing some of them trying to wriggle out of their designation as very large online platforms, so enforcement could be tricky from that perspective Amazon are trying to say we're not a very large on that one because there are other competitors and we make our money through retail and we're not really you know if it can't believe that argument another company at zalando, which may not have heard of in the UK but it's an online clothing retailer primarily in the EU has been designated very online large online platform in there, so I know but we're not please let us up the book don't regulators, so it's going to be interesting to see.

How they make that call Nick I guess two things one is the digital services act is unlike the gdpr in the for the largest platforms enforcement is directly from the European Commission not from the local countries are based in within the European Union second thing is the vagueness of the way the defined is actually a feature and not being a principles-based law requires the companies themselves to come up with their own rules and then the the Independent audit act kind of force on that lever and to really put it through and so it sounds to me like you're leaving us with a number of questions Adam you're leaving us with the question of what how significant the will this be in the short-term not clear in the longer term not clear either.

You're also saying next somebody that the test is the degree to which the specifics can be applied and Jennifer your also exploring how much teeth the EU will bring to.

But there is a broader question here which is the potentially this legislation has the capacity to set the tone to set the direction of travel for the relationship between regulators big tech and consumers not just within the EU but elsewhere to and Chris talk to us about this in the context of the EU and the UK I apologise to what degree is what was seeing in the European Union potentially bring us clues for where the UK or the US might go is currently being debated and has been on go in last longer than the US taken to put together the DSA which I think is an indication of how quickly they have moved in some instances.

We have seen in past precedent the what goes in the EU kind of becoming a little bit of a defacto global rule with the gdpr that General data protection regulation that we mentioned right at the start of the programme the fact that you all have the ability.

Kind of to find your data the fact that we get annoying cookie banners pre-match.

Wherever we go even some ways because of that and I think that even though they're all these questions about enforcement even there are these issues around here to what extent is really going to end up finding a company 6% of its global annual turnover which is huge amount of money than actually.

It's probably pie in the sky in reality.

It does change the attitudes that does change the approach and rowdy seeing that by big companies trying to wriggle out of this and so it has this outsized impact this is regulation made for the 450 million consumers in the European Union which the EU and parliamentarians.

They're constantly go on about but it does have that ripple effect beyond where people start to sort of pick and choose the best elements for other jurisdictions worldwide Adam could you imagine something similar coming through Washington

You seen the functional Congress these days so probably not anytime soon, but I I think it is correct in that the EU is really setting is not just with the digital services act.

There's also another competition related more of the digital markets act.

It's going to be taking a fact and over the next going to have implications on your iPhone since the beginning of the first iPhone came out the only App Store that you've been able to because of this one.

It's very very likely that in the next couple years that when you want to you can get an app store from somebody else.

Let me know sort of changes significant in show.

How Europe is sort of company's to even if slightly and slowly in other countries are Arsenal getting.

No, I'm about 20 seconds away from the deadline that Chris gave me for saying her to go so Chris thank you very much indeed for joining us on the media Show please come back on again soon.

Thank you very much indeed and they're going to Jennifer to Adam just before I let you go there was one of the questions that connects to one of the company's even discussing metabee cuz it's announce that it's going to be closing the Facebook news tab in the UK France and Germany it's also its funding for it's community news project.

What's your reaction to that and how much of an impact will that have on the content experience on Facebook for people who use it anyway what this means is for those who don't know we're talking about Facebook news tab on your on your Facebook but you could go and get links to these organisations in providing some some funding behind there.

I mean it to blow to the organisation receiving that funding and organisation.

It just shows how Facebook is is d.

Prioritizing news overall signal for the direction of travel for some time with them done these kind of things in the past then babe out good news organizations money to make video content for Facebook in the kind of pizza wagons to Facebook you have this kind of roller coaster ride.

Just ask an organization-wide BuzzFeed which was able to grow to prominence in Great journalism in part because of the disability that I could get on Facebook and then they changed the algorithm in decided.

It's not something that there is interested anymore and all the sudden you get disability.

Yeah the equation has been changing for a little while and those are you listening? I'm sure if you use Facebook we will have noticed that we did approach metaphor comment on this.

They said no one was available to come onto the media show but then.

Statement which says as a company we have to focus our time and resources on things people tell us they want we know people don't come to Facebook for news and political content News makes up less than 3% of what people in the world seeing their Facebook fee.so news Discovery is a Small Part of the Facebook experience for the vast majority of people going to leave it there.

Thanks to Jennifer thanks to Adam centre, Chris we appreciate all of you joining us here on the media show now in the next few minutes.

We're going to turn our attention to a survey.

That's been done by the union back to its national secretary Spencer he's with this house Spencer thanks for your time today afternoon and now you surveyed 4000 freelance film and TV workers and three-quarters of them have been told you they weren't working we were expecting a figure anywhere near that high.

We knew it was bad because the Strikes Is created in industrial earthquake across the whole sector so we knew that has the US writers strike the US writers strike and the actors strike so that the writer's came out in May and then the actors that came out in July and that was really when we saw a stop when the actors actually came out and that's when a lot of members got suspended and what they've used is the force majeure so there's a little clause in the contract.

They get papers in their contracts and a little Claus in their 40s you give the production the ability to suspend crew.

They normally thought it was your is used for natural events, so things like earthquakes floods and fires, but they've extended app for the purposes of the strike so as a result of that we did the survey and like.

It was it was pretty bad so nearly 75% said they are currently not working 35% said they are unable to pay some of their bills and nearly 60% said this suffering mental health issues with the lack of work and Spencer aside from the US writers strike.

Is there anything else that feeding into it or do you think it is simply that and if that strikwerda resolve relatively quickly things would go back to where they were yeah? I think it probably would because we've seen roughly about a dozen maybe more Productions been suspended.

We're talking about hi Auntie and big major motion pictures which has lots and lots of crew on on those we talk about thousands of individuals that have been suspended.

So they've been suspended with no prospect of any future then financial is going to impact them so you can that's why you're seeing you have these talks the results in the survey and we should send me thought about it before on the media.

Show the this strike both writers.

Between those writers and actors and the studios over how they are compensated in the streaming era.

Well, let's bring in to speak with us Spencer Jackie Sweeney who's an independent and make-up designer he's based in Manchester Higher Jackie greater.

Have you on the program? I know because you've already been talking to the media show team that things have been quite difficult recently expensive describe.

It's a hard stop.

It's a lot of us.

It's been like hitting a brick wall at speed and I've been speaking to a lot of my colleagues in the makeup community and listening to their voice and it's really difficult.

There's a lot of Fear out there personally stuff.

I finished a job at the beginning of July and I've only been offered maybe 4 days of work since that point and usually I will be expected to finish that job and gone headlong into working up and down the country until my next project camel.

Call dalys, which is working where you have a huge crowd seen it maybe 300 people leading to look like the bin and you know in a battle scene and that the amount of makeup artist and costumers and extras and you know a massive white people to do that and so Daly's are a lot of jobs to have while you're welcome something for full-time period for short contract and there somewhere your work on a contract for a day and and that for a lot of us in the industry is in a way that we work and yeah, but it's been really hard.

It's also lot of personal decisions about how we go forward at moment at home some world.

We used to quiet times we save up to pay a tax bills to pay for the rainy days, but for a lot of us sadly.

We you know those resources and how to win.

And I know that I'm absolutely sure it is and I know that the film and TV charity has been offering some support for freelancers the BBC has to have you been able to access support one sort or another which can help to 20 degree.

We have a family business must my husband has another business which which me I'm looking to grow that side of it because part of one of the questions that Spencer did ask in the survey was no are you considering leaving the industry and I can say that I was and I'll see what happens in the new year because it's it's very frightening and I think what we fear is a brain drain, that will have a lot of really good people who have insecurities will need to find work elsewhere financial securities and will lose them and we had the British Film and Television industry is it's always been a world leader.

And if we lose that it would be a travesty describe your experiences independent hair and make-up designer.

You're a member of bacteria in as I was saying Spencer's the national secretary of that Union X-rays you listen to Jackie I'm sure you've heard of the stories and experiences similar to Jackie from other members.

What further help.

Do you think needs to be off but needs to be more support ready from the employers because it's a pool of freelancers.

They shared amongst all the different yoga production is not freelancers to attach together one particular production company and they work for them.

You know throughout their careers.

They share this pool of your friends.

So they need to actually you know step up and actually support the workers in the industry yellow Jackie identifying there's a lot of people there actually considering who got transferable skills leaving the industry and during the survey 25% said that in the next.

Contemplate leaving the industry and given that the industry needs an extra 20000 workers over the next 5 years to sustain the growth.

This is going to be critical to that and have you been talking to the the government or the big employees or the big production companies in and making the case that you're making here.

Yeah, the thing is the government not that progressive when it comes to your workers rights and get a protection for you know for workers, but we've made you know we're making the case it terms of you know we do need you no more.

No more support for UK freelancers with tried contacting a number of the studio in the freelancers at the studios in the streamers to put in place a retainer but actually had a lot of Silence there's been you know that much response from back to thank you very much indeed.

I should say that needless to say the government wouldn't agree with your categorisation.

Is this statement in response to a petition asking for further help? We are engaging with industry to understand the impact of continue the continued us strictly told us we continue our support for the screen industry competitive tax reliefs investing in studio infrastructure supporting innovation and promoting independent content of the media shape best of luck to you Jackie thank you very much indeed for joining dispenser McDonald from back to also the Jen baker who joined us from Brussels Elim Church of Rihanna from the New York Times the Tech writer Chris stokel-walker and also exhibit from July but that's it.

Thanks for listening bye-bye.