Read this: Who will buy The Telegraph?

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 to help by The Telegraph we're asking what's in it for them is here alongside Jane martinson.

Who is about to publish a biography of the telegraphs recently Alistair donors former Chancellor George Osborne also a former editor of evening Standard will have something to say I'm sure he is with me to talk about his new podcast political currency which is hosting a long by the former labour politician and strictly contestant and bold and the first episode of that drops tomorrow.

Hello George Osborne welcome to the media.

So you're both x treasury, is this a podcast about economics?

Thanks for having me on used to be a little rivals.

He was my toughest political Ireland when I was Chancellor and he was shadow chancellor and yes, we're both in different ways of a big role in economic policymaking but takes place within a broader context and the reason why with tools podcast currency is precisely bringing the currency and the Politics of decision-making and things to do which week with our podcast is people behind the scenes and explain how decisions are made the kind of thinking that will be going on giving opinions on being done both entertain.

Inform them a bit better about the world.

Can you talk about frenemies? I mean it is hard not to compare it to Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell's the rest is politics.

Do you see the competition? Are you hoping to make as much money as their reported to be making from that podcast from that live events and advertising Champions League and I'm listen to the rest of politics.

I've gotta make a 2 of something wrong with having a few radio at the moment, but I think there is a difference in this is not enjoy.

And I were right at the centre as elected politicians of decision-making at the very highest level in a in a head was in the room with the prime minister in the chance in the cabinet himself making decisions like do you make the Bank of England independent and I was in the room with David Cameron on by the brexit referendum and we were political rivals at the time and I think of changed Amazon have to talk to any get his perspective but I think we pursued a particularly aggressive style and in the years since you know you're talking to you since we've been out and we've all gone and it is also been on.

Come Dancing presents Good Morning Britain completely different since you left to stand at understand you have to standard you working banking you obviously taken on Charing the board of the British Museum I guess some people might ask have you got time for This podcast from the museum is in the middle of a crisis over artefacts that have gone missing from it's a lot of time 10 time to managing the British Museum but I'm the chairman of trustees and we now have a director responsibility.

I think it's possible to do several things and experience in managing won the world's the world's biggest museums expensive being a newspaper editor of mind finance to bear on these decisions and I think it's in a we're not because we're not we've got a podcast.

In 2015 or 2016 have had more like what we could have said it's like an interview here on the Today programme an aggressive, where is this is getting more like the media show right not aggressive not defensive open a chemistry between us doesn't mean by the way no and this is not of the track from what the BBC 6 to the National broadcast system affect all opinions and not have itself an opinion.

Where is going to be afraid to say that we don't often something to do things we don't agree on to Tylers and send them around to friends of ours and people whose judgements and he'll like.

In the end the listener starting tomorrow, they can make their decision I mean we're interested in your opinion for the rest of this show.

Thank you so much.

We going to talk now about because the government announced a new task force and do something jealous.

They are a very bad thing but far fewer people can correctly identify slap stands for Strategic lawsuits against public party and Powerful use them to scare of journalists before and negative story gets in to print and London it seems and it's many law firms is apparently the place to come if you want to slap Fiona Brian London funeral director with former reporters without borders is on the new task for television.

Just explain what these things actually are.

Hi, thanks for having me and Casey they're designed to intimidates individuals the vast majority against journalist, but it can also be against writers academics human rights defenders, etc.

I meant to try and Tim a date them into not pubs.

What is that the claimant would rather didn't see the light of day they tend to be as I said no she gets journalist they tend to make use of defamation law which is one of the reasons.

Why London is.

It is a particularly popular to bring them the candles in the use of privacy laws data protection etc another characteristic.

Is there tends to be a real imbalance of power so typically, it's a rich and Powerful individual or a company with with that comes against an individual to the cost so frightening exactly.

What can you actually do so the task force comes from a growing realisation in government that this has happened on the increased so the numbers show what numbers we do have the not enough research has been done yet, but what numbers we do have shown that the right across your at these kind of receipts are increasing the government started to do that with the instructions and amendments to the economic crimes and corporate corruption bell which will help courts throughout somebody's cases early, but that.

First portion of flats those that refer to stories to do with economic corruption etc, so there is two alongside that and alongside hopefully more comprehensive legislation to look at non-legislative ways to help combat flaps, so that could be things like changes to regulation.

How do we ensure that legal firms in London are not complicit and his kind of places can we try the regulation to solicitors it could be guidance to editors to jenlisa.

They know better how to recognise a slap how to react when it happens to them has put protective measures in place so looking at a rough two things to say some legislation from guido Fawkes hear what is your take on it? Cos I think famously you said in the past that your website guido Fawkes is immune from litigation letters from Lloyds have never stop an often.

You'll actually publish them well.

Haven't stopped people trying to say the only people can see us having rich people so I accept that and you know I'm generally somebody to work.

And I don't think it's a good idea that Russian oligarchs can go round soon, but I think it's a problem defining legally what a slap is a recently reported that borders backed cow cuddling came that she was victim staff and banks the judge very specifically said this is not a slap.

This is a question of truth and defamation and Carol admitted.

It wasn't true that claims about Aaron banks, but you can't do the slap she kind of the judge said it wasn't and it straightforward information one of the things that we look at when we look at whether an action is a slap or not is not so much the case itself with the behaviour rounded so characteristic of slaps is an attempt to isolate journalists often the case included it was brought against her individually not against the publisher.

It's an attempt to intimidate intimidate so we'll start using with very strong legal letters enormous financial and

Pressure on genital whoever being slapped so it's that kind of laughs of behaviours whose aim is generally not about the court case and it's outcome but about the lane publication about scaring and it has a chilling effect and if I could just bring you back in a minute.

I'm as with the evening Standard will lawyers for the rich and Powerful the Enemy of journalism.

We often had to deal with someone who's been on the other side that you've been on a tree material and I can I take legal advice again.

I think you know what's important.

Is that you with protection for Media Freedom comes responsibility on editors and I tend to agree with was just been said that the publication and the Editors and the companies behind in the response of the police and make sure it's accurate and properly swords and the like and is not defamatory, so I think he needs a bit of a two-way street.

Yes protection.

You don't want the rich and Powerful just using the impression of inexpensive to shutdown Media enquiries, but if it's just garrulous.

Unsourced gossip then you know you have to be able to stand it up otherwise it is we have long-standing lost in this country people from libel and slander one mother think we should talk about the Telegraph the things that has changed organisations are less financially and the resources that they want Stead and so they are a bit more vulnerable particularly like Anna classic newspaper groups.

You know now.

Can we really afford to get into this if we're going to lose and that puts pressure on editors in a driver? Not you no not tested in court.

What does points I think the discussion around newspapers being defamatory or not is actually a bit of a distraction from yeshua slaps most of the cases.

We see a lot of your spirit and in fact don't result it.

Yeah, I can get dropped make it to court.

It's the type of action which is very clearly aimed at frightening the journalist and sort of putting them under such pressure that they step back from publication.

Ok, thank you want to move on to the Telegraph because we don't have loads of time on this program because of course he was going to buy the Telegraph on The Spectator the titles have been up for sale since June that's when Lloyds seize control from the Barclay brothers.

You owe the bank a lot of cash in recent weeks.

The Rumour Mill has been swirling Sky News reported that the Barclays could buy them back with the help of Abu Dhabi meanwhile the ft reported last week that the owner of the Daily Mail have been tapping out the guitarist from the bed hertz and pick it up Jane martinson former Media editor of The Guardian and all the other forthcoming book about the Barclays called you may never see us again.

Hello Jane

This reminds us how we got here.

Why did the Barclay brothers lose their prize Telegraph titles started lots of things including the Telegraph and actually ended up paying for 100 more than they actually had hoped that they were going to pay for it forward four years later and the credit crisis banks that have been very willing to give as much money as anyone wanted to be very wealthy man or men he seems very wealthy lots of money to buy things became very cash-strapped the best-known examples That Was A Bank of Scotland and as each boss said the man there was one of the only men and almost the best-known example of the sort of profligate lending of the time and the only one banned from financial services for life at Peter Cummings by the time Lloyds came along the Berkeley the owners of a towbar for Barclay family with a bigger.

Single problem loan and the amount of money snowballed and over the years been not going don't want to keep pointing to the crisis and rates were obviously higher and got big debt and interest payments.

I've got even higher hence.

We get to this a move.

That is so shocking but because of the size of the death.

I think it didn't cause the shock people within Lloyds thought it would and a big bank.

That was once had a massive with the taxpayers bailed out a pot of Lloyds as instead of combined entity and safely taxpayer sort of supported thanked season control of a national newspaper not only and Natalie's favour, but one which is the house organ of the Conservative Party

Here before an election.

I mean all sorts of reasons why that should have thought everyone in the UK and it but the size of those dead.

I think has hampered the reaction is it credible do you think the Barclays could get them back potentially with money from the middle they've been reports and they I know that they are they coming up to Lloyds with different ways and sort of trying to make sure this didn't happen after Juno think there's been other approaches.

I mean the Middle Eastern vs.

At the world is such that there is lots of seem to be in there is more money in the Middle East so lots, and I think not only the Barclays but and Lord Rothermere dmgt to be talking to people in the middle, so is there lots of a so obviously the Barclays

Pretty clear that the Lloyds won't get as much money back as they can know one thing was the Telegraph and The Spectator even though it's ok to be seen as a real dual is going to eat like a billion pound so they want to have the biggest public auction and get everyone involved the way they actually in 2004 the auction process led to a lot more money being paid for that paper asset so they will I would imagine be much more likely to want a big public auction and not just say ok for my owners.

You've got a bit of money here's your you can write again.

I'm interested in the Middle Eastern connections.

Obviously when does the reading about Saudi investment in Sport for example? I want to bring in Susan carmania.

Dean of the College of Law at Hamad bin.

Khalifa university in season, what is the attraction of a British newspaper Group 2 Qatari investors do you think well? I think the keys in here is to persevere.

Colour has been investing abroad since it adopted its national vision 2030 and a priority has been on with that national version knowledge is part of their in.

It's quite a profile on bed when you think about it, because the country is all these resources and it is trying to use them wisely for the benefit of the nation and in actually be on and diversification is critical on period education city in which my neighbours are Georgetown University Cornell medical school and and are the Investment in education promote knowledge and that end in ideological understanding is I think critically and so with this potential investment we see this this objective the diversification but also I think another thing we can overwork is the closest relation scala house with the United Kingdom the car is still very welcome.

We have many expats from from Britain here at the Investment will bring the countries together course they had some soft power related issues in the light to say after they want to influence the editorial stance wallpaper for example the process.

We just heard about was a statement dead.

It would still have a majority are back and I connect with the interest with control needed to invest in the business and protect us editorial independence what I say he is consistent with but it's done for example with Sports in the like.

Is it is it friends and values working together with people to achieve important goals particularly in the area of sustainability improvement of a focus on dialogue in House of strong presence abroad but in a country for instance it has physical ties already.

It won't buildings hair securities.

Why not also work in this realm of ideas poster leaving at about soft power and I don't want a country that has notorious record freedom and democracy and liberal values have stuffed power protecting it from supposed to be held accountable in the video if you wouldn't have a problem.

I don't have a problem with foreigners owning Media is a globalised world British and American media is the whole of the free world has interest in the media this but if you're buying it for propaganda purposes or to protect yourself in the media, then that's not good idea.

Are there any rules about foreign ownership of UK paper is a fit and proper person's test for those wishing to control broadcast Media but should there be newspapers history of newspapers.

Partisan pamphlets and we'll sort of cat that going and the fit and proper person test doesn't apply in the same way however there are obviously issues about whether you have someone link to state security organizations for example whether you have someone who is perhaps very close to the Russian administration who is no longer uses any of those things I mean interestingly katazome relationship with Daily Telegraph when it was at the other side of a very protracted business Dior over hotel in office was the subject of lots of very negative and newspaper reports mainly in the Telegraph about it funding terrorist organisations example for example isn't back and say there is there are Pick A questions.

I don't mean pull the same obviously decision if it's summer Norwich the Investor and they're not just football club.

So you know the Saudis actually have a big.

The Independent that 30% so you know are they going to be rules around the what size the sake how much money that ok? Just to bring you back in on his knee when we talk about guitar are these investors independent of the government trying to get to the bottom of the answer that it was so I would you know getting back to the observation just thought I just don't think we can come to the conclusion and I'm speculating what could happen particularly given the statement from the Daily Mail test and making sure the majority of the economic inequality and also to have control over the editorial independence right.

I do think there is a value in having a dialogue of some sort but the way the country has brought individuals together that with radiological understanding.

For everyone to understand each other ok for people just chilling and you listen to the media show on BBC Radio 4 with the Telegraph and suggestions that might be a minority stake in it some element of people in the Middle East George Osborne you editor of the evening Standard which in 2009 was taken over by the leopard my do you think British newspapers are attractive to overseas in the podcast beat you to it.

I'm fine to persuade the Barclay brothers at the time to support David Cameron's leadership with the Conservative Party which was largely unsuccessful, but didn't stop us coming.

The body and winning election so you don't need full support of these politicians sometimes the newspapers will follow your success rather than lay the ground for clinical success of the question.

Why do you think overseas investors want to buy up for the newspapers call sometimes? It's about influence.

I mean that's why some people and newspapers but they're also in a powerful financial assets and I think about the Telegraph nothing has been for sale on the choir for some years and have been trying to send it now then Lloyds Bank of control.

I think it's highly likely that they will not be able to retain the battery family retain control but we'll see.

Could you think about how many broadsheet are are available the Financial Times has been bought by Japanese companies very unlikely to be sold for many decades the Guardian is in a trust the Times is owned by Rupert Murdoch interesting but it's so why he's alive and so they're quite and they when they come up.

They do command usually a value considerably higher than a straightforward multiple of there any more regular company and because of this important in conservative coming on to that and I will ask you but I'd like to bring up all staying here.

I mean zoom out of it.

What is for you that is is there a business case for buying the Telegraph does it make money.

Reading the accounts for years it was always feels exceptionals and red flags and we now know that clearly it wasn't it was probably special accounting sense.

I couldn't finance the debt and that was growing so I wasn't really properly business earnings if the net earnings are really negligible.

What is that makes you know I don't think they can let me think like a billion for it is influenced terms of its influence over the Conservatives right the tariff.

Everything is Augustus way, little bit bigger over the place.

It was it's bounced around and who is backing for Boris and boosters and then it's kind of it's not influence of The Spectator certainly has the hearts and Minds of Tory membership in a way that I don't need does now and also the control of the Tory membership in the toilet.

Is is much more fragmented you got the broadcasters and if you're looking to influence people now days.

I think broadcast and figure the Next Generation is more important if you ever seen that right now which I imagine he wouldn't want to be but if you are which which paper would you be causing these days and using all the methods which include speaking to the Editors of the process and that is what was successful prime ministers of my life, but it doesn't mean you should be assumed that in a the way to be successful in politics is to get the newspapers to support you to be successful reading the newspaper.

You know the Sun newspaper makes a calculation of who's going to win the election as well as deciding which.

And was successful, then you find if your popular the newspapers and only got 15 seconds, but just do you think the Telegraph from The Spectator will be split up which is the biggest prize would love to go home from the coating and hardener and somewhere else is that I'm afraid that is all we got time we defined economic gravity to the time is over that is it for today? Thank you.

George Osborne is new podcast political currency launches Tomorrow full Staines better known as Fawkes Dr season car Romanian from Hamad bin, Khalifa University Fiona O'Brien reporters without borders and Jane martinson, who's book you may never see us again comes out in October thanks, goodbye.