Read this: Gaza hospital blast: searching for the facts

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts on this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 the deadly explosion raises many questions about how the media is covering the Israel Gaza war will talk to senior executives from reuters BBC and afp news organise to report claims being made by both sides also considered the terms of Engagement for journalists after a reuters video during this was killed in a strike in Lebanon last week and we'll talk the practicalities of reporting in Gaza which is controlled by Hamas John Lewis at the beginning of the program are Alessandra galloni editor-in-chief of reuters feel chetwyn global director of the afp news agency and Richard Burgess director of news content for BBC News and I should mention my role at BBC News is within Richards department and Alessandra and Phil

I'd like to talk to you first because it's been a particularly difficult week for your organization's Alessandra the reuters photojournalist medela was killed on Friday in Lebanon close to the border with Israel to other writers journalists were injured as was an Al Jazeera journalist and Phil to have your afp.

Colleagues were injured to Alessandro what do we know about what happened hi Ross and thank you.

So yes, it's a very dark moment for us here at work because you said is some was killed and two of our other journalists were injured.

What do we know we are investigating as a Newsroom we are trying to understand exactly what happened what we know that far.

Is that Anna East Ham and other girl less were at the border in a in a place that was essentially a monitoring station really in the South of Lebanon

And they were a filming fire on on both sides, so Crossfire between Lebanon and Israel and at a certain point to shelves landed A1 directly on his camera and another very close by creating the injuries eyewitnesses there so they're together I said that the shall we don't know quite with a shower with a motor.

It was the ordinance that they was coming from the direction of Israel trying to understand exactly what happened on Friday Israel's un envoy said obviously we would never want to hit or keylor shoot any journalist.

That is doing it but you know where in a state of War things might happen in a separate statement Israel said the writer's event was still looking into it.

I'm looking at the footage and we'll come out with an answer when we're ready.

Events still checking from afp.

What have you heard my Echo very much exactly what I said.

I think going in a similar position.

We have asked the israelis for a proper deep and serious investigation into what happened with absolutely have to have answers.

We will see the Lebanese authorities to and we absolutely have to have help and proper answers from them to to to paint a full picture what happened as journalists on the scene 7 you believed to be the fire came through from the Israeli side is extremely seriously injured in hospital at the moment one of our video Gemma Collins and we still extremely concerned for the fate of Christine and Alexandra

Will you under the impression was reuters under the impression that both sides of those exchanges that you were describing knew that your journalists and the other journalists with their I don't know for sure.

I I cannot say that for sore what I can say is is as Phil said that I to publicly and the company have asked for a and transparent investigation and what we mean by transparent and tomorrow is that we would like evidence and expert and we have asked the Israeli authorities for this investigation separately the Lebanese government has said that it has gotten evidence so 11:30 to give us there evidence for the benefit of everyone listening help us understand the process that a news.

I would go through when deciding to position one or some of its journalists in a position like this.

Would you think that marking yourself as press is sufficient or would you feel need to interact with either one or both sides before deploying to a position like that.

I think there's no one simple answer to that Russ because it really depends on the context of what is going on suddenly in this case the image of the group of journalists before literally minutes before impact shows a large group of Germans all very clearly marked press on their flight jackets and helmets it would have been difficult to see them as anything other than press.

There are certainly instances and I'm thinking in particular interaction in Israel where we have given example the authorities very clear coordinates as to where are Bureau in God's will be in an attempt to to keep them safe and so on but as I said there's a one-size-fits-all.

We look at all the issues that can help us to deploy as safely as possible, but sometimes it depends on the local knowledge of the individual correspondence people who are working as

Noah's own and have the contacts in that zone sometimes we sending people from the outside who don't have that level of experience so it depends really on the makeup of your team as well, but that's interested if I could just add on that this was not a kinetic situation.

You know these were journalists who were in in a village in South Lebanon all clearly marked with press all over their own equipment and on the end of their vehicles and they were not in class as they were not a conflict situation, so I just want to make that clear and Israeli the saying that they would never want to hit or keylor shoot any journalist and they say they're looking into what they are the rotors event Phil from a p.

I was interested to hear you say that in some circumstances.

You would provide geolocation of where your officers are or where an individual team of journalists.

Burgess from BBC News lots of people listening to us now all of seen BBC journalist such as Jeremy Bowen the BBC's international editor reporting from the south of Israel what any interaction do you have with the israelis in organising where our journalists work from and are broadcasting from when I first of all I want to say and pass on condolences to Alexandra and everybody at reuters for the loss of a Sam I mean, it's a real reminder.

I think of the risks that are teams on the ground take in order to cover these complex and to bring to audiences a sense of what's really going on which we think invoice thinks and afp.

Think is absolutely critical to it's also the most awful thing in the most awful part of our profession.

I mean in terms of our teams operating at the moment on the ground Israel they are free to operate and to move around they're not there are.

Restrictions on what day do but obviously they are taking you know really serious safety considerations and those those are the kind of considerations of film was talking about just there which is often based on experience but also based on elements of risk and working with safety advisors, so would be a constant dialogue between you and the israelis as to where each of the BBC News teams are within Israel no, I mean we sometimes have been on organise press facilities that the Israeli government of organising a really clear on our when we do that, but in terms of moving around we are free to do that Richard thank you.

Thanks.

Alessandra and Phil as well for talking as through the very difficult few days for there organise next on the media show I want to turn specifically to the hospital explosion in Gaza because as those of you listening will I'm sure I've heard they have been claims and counterclaims.

Who was responsible and there's also been intense scrutiny of how news organisations report on those claims? That's bringing Emily bell director of the center for digital journalism Columbia University in the US every year love seeing that screwed me to what do you make of how the different claims that have come out about this hospital explosion have been reported buses that we on we know that narrative is possible fair now.

So I just as we have placed their lives on the ground.

We also have this if you like caramel activity of claim and counterclaim and L Lakeside narrative as possible.

We've seen it in Ukraine it's easy to do because of our social media electronic media and we saw this with the hospital explosion in girls that which was Festival

Presumptions and some of it was backed up by tweets from one page being Israeli minister suggesting that it was it was a rocket from Israel and not one off to that we started to have doubt cost on that much of the work.

That was done overnight on this came from what we call open-source intelligence experts and experts who would just examining different bits of video having a look at the hospital daylight broke and then that's a lot of news organisations.

I mean I got three alerts about this on my phone yesterday saying 500 people killed rocket strike on is very difficult to grow back from that kind of initial impact of the story and its completion really have just difficulty reportedly very confusing situation.

Electronic materials available and and the contestant narrative that that goes into it that's on both sides does wasting our people to believe one or other of you and that open-source intelligence in a moment, but let's go into the detail of how this was reported and I should say that has blamed Israel and Israeli said that this was caused by a misfire rocket launch by Palestinian Islamic Jihad militants Richard I'm going to read a BBC tweeter, which says 100 feared dead or injured in Israeli airstrike on hospital in Gaza Palestinian officials and then Alessandra this is reuters.

Copy from yesterday.

Cat as foreign ministry issued a statement on Tuesday strongly condemning Israeli airstrike on Gaza that killed hundreds civilians.

Do you have any reservations about how the BBC attributed those reports? I think we were really circumspect in fact throughout in all of our reporter.

Be really clear about what we knew and what we didn't know and he's a developing stories and you're getting information from various sources all the way along I think what's most important.

Is that clear as you possibly can be with the audience in terms of attributing their sources and in fact that given that you didn't know don't know that it was an Israeli strike appropriate to put that in a tweet or a headline even if Palestinian sources and making that claim.

I think you have to sit within the entirety of our coverage and I think if you watch listen to the entirety of coverage.

You love heard the Israeli side of the arguments being pulled with interview what we dream last night that idea spokesman.

Isn't that because within social media where headlines get screengrab where we have 24-hour TV where small clip start going viral lots of people aren't consuming the entirety of beer.

Is output there looking at moments no indeed and I think we're aware that clips and headlines can be used in that way and can sometimes be taken context and I think that is why language and being as clear as you possibly can be at all times and is clear as you can be in terms of that attribute attributing is trying to do and I think you know that's why we consider it's so important to retain that impartial independent position that we have done throughout this this conflict.

What about right.

Do you have any concerns about the the wire copy that I read there? Was it strong enough in pointing out the voices didn't know this was an Israeli airstrike.

Yeah, so what we often do what we do when we have the statement from Israeli in this case is really sore Hamas or has it is we say that they said this publicly but then what we will do is we will note that that leader has or has not given evidence and also add balance.

So this one says there's that one and that's why there is no evidence and then is a second stop which can take a long time obviously we aggressively is trying to find the evidence that is the approach.

We generally take so we apply the usual litmus test that we apply to a source with video say this last thing with video we are others get handouts right so for example.

We will get handouts from idea.

What we do is we verify that we verify the location and the time and then if you can't verify that we tell.

We say that we have not been able to verify that time or the location and clearly we say again.

What the sources so that's how both BBC and I approach text primary talk about audio and video which is a slightly different challenge and Phil from here, but I could bring you in here now the israelis today and their briefing on the hospital explosion say they believe they have proof that this was caused by a misfire Palestinian rocket and they released audio with they say is an intercepted conversation which back that up.

How would afp handle that would you put that in the public domain? I think we would have to it if it's the official Israeli government position which they're putting out there.

It's our responsibility to report on that but to report on with a maximum of context.

I think this is one of these challenges in the way we have breaking news now if the first information is coming from Israel or always coming from.

I need all the time to say what you can and what you can't do what you cannot confirm and the context that you have and so I think we have to address it if it's from ignore it let's bring you in here because I'm listening.

It's reminding me of related if quite different conversations that lots of people had about say American politics a politician for example Donald Trump would say something that wasn't true that would get a huge amount of coverage and then the fact check from the news organisations would get a fraction of the coverage think that the way that we heard from afp, BBC and writers in their approach to the different statements that we getting from israelis and from some people in Gaza

I think it's very difficult to assess right because reporting and distribution of so different so you can have a very careful approach and very careful headline contextualize everything within the peace if you're out there on social media then it will be just the briefest glimpse the people get the story so so is reporting it at all when you don't know what the facts are is that responsible? How do you not report it in editing One Pilots twenty one thing we used to say was actually saying nothing also creates a vacuum of uncertainty around so it's incredibly difficult to get right.

I think that possibly things like alerts when you when you do push news organisations need to pay as much attention to those as they do to the headlines that they're putting on longer pieces although putting out on bulletins.

I think sometimes that's really where the incautious stuff.

Creeps in at the edges and and it can just be blown up on centre Stage very very easily, so I think it's normal to get every single bit they are saying right from every single correspondence on every single platform.

That's really difficult task at the best of times of the middle of a war it's all but impossible, but I think in Furness to utilisation are getting much better at doing this, but they will be slip ups and I think today was a slipper as I was saying these really say they believe this was a Paris rocket Hamas which controls Gaza is blaming the israelis and Hamas is a designated terrorist organisation by the UK the US the European Union and many others control cars that has done for over 15-years and is responsible for the Massacre in the South of Israel on the 7th of October that's bringing the journalist Isabelle young who made a documentary for advice.

Which involve reporting in Gaza with the cooperation of hammers and which involve filming in summer for masses tunnels Isabel thank you very much for joining us here on the media.

So how did you first get in touch with the group and what was the nature of the interaction of double months and periphery of her mouth and then we'll be decision-makers who would decide whether you would be able to go in there.

Who we be able to speak with you know we had several locations inside Gaza you know there was a lot of things to do a deep dive into all sides of the conflict and you know that we want to spend time with them as well and so you know they were broken Santa on the background checks on as they were from you.

You every time you met them we would have to leave equipment outside we have to leave any tracking devices inside my bones inside and after decided to let us know and we'll curious to know if that was the case and what remained of her and you would have been away as you went about this reporting and organise access the Hamas was designated a terror organisation.

Did you have any reservations about working directly with them article concerns?

We don't have any interest of the platform providing a platform for that.

That's not a role, but they wanted to use the opportunity to do but it was an opportunity to go in there and to the weather we could ask them about you know what they were doing.

Why they were doing fine understand it and to hold accountable them to see if there were any potential Solutions and we were given assurances before we went in that we would have to ask whatever questions he wanted before before we went in and after the Horrors of the 7th of October has your view of whether you seek access to Gaza via have changed.

What would be investigating what the conversation with the weather will be furthering the conversation and understanding of what's happening right now and then bill in doing so you know I have platform group but I do want to understand how this happened how it can end and the whole the right people accountable which job Alessandra galloni with reuters obtain get access to parts of Gaza by working with Hamas is that something your organisation would do I think working with it is a bit strong rod? I think that if you operate in Gaza you have contacts with with hummus officials, but that is working with that.

Is they control certain parts of Gaza and so the in a we we have contact with them.

Far is there roll there, but I wouldn't classified as working with about the BBC and a we have a correspondence in Gaza who's I think 20-years and hypnosis life there and he operates through the I mean obviously has some contacts with a mask because they know they run the government that will run the streets are so but in terms of operating there.

Yeah, we are able to operate freely and without any kind of mind is there anything like that so you wouldn't he wouldn't tell him I swear he was planning to report it everyday.

No, he went to the hospital today.

We made that decision and Phil what about afp.

What's your experience of working with a mass? I would say similar to what has been described by Alexander and Richard we have a beer there with 9 journalists Palestinians from their.

So they know their way around a know where the limits are.

I don't know we can say it's a completely free environment in which the report we reported a lot of difficult places where there are restrictions kind, but we find our way to do a job in a reasonably independent way.

I think is away with it.

Thanks very much indeed, but just in the last few minutes of the you show Emily bell.

Let me bring you back in because of course journalist expect screwed need journalist bring screwed needs a lot of other people and they would expect their work to be screwed nice too, but I wonder Emily if you've ever seen such pressures both on how newsworks and also how are information ecosystem works as we've seen in the last week and a half here in the US election Cycles and I'm not making Direct analogy but I think overtime this pressure has risen and risen Risen we fit it stepped up again with Ukraine Russia

set up again with israel-gaza and I think that the intensity of what we've experienced in the past week is really a sign of how fragmented the me escape now isn't how difficult it is for mainstream music by patients ready to hold the ring on this app and also it's a reminder that actually undermining the Press And The credibility of the press is a professional occupation for a lot of people who would seek political capital out of it and I think that adding complexity to how we report which is you have to report from inside the story as well as on the story about you feel afp more I mean we done a lot of these kind of very visceral contact conflicts over the last 1015 years we used to doing that and it was many involving Israel and Palestinians in Gaza but I think there's a concept now where the

Jhelum disinformation and misinformation on social media and just a general tone on social media content that's been going out there the really difficult images just the level of people shouting makes it an environment which is very very hard to do clear-headed independent journalism.

Especially when we're having to work in real time we'll work in real time and that means as your try to report you're being insulted.

You're being bombarded by miss information being bad by difficult images.

It's a very very tough environment which do you feel that pressure Richard figure in the BBC news room where there is an appetite for urgent information on this story because it's so important, but often the BBC doesn't have a lot of confirmed information.

Yeah, I know to be honest.

I think what this is brought home to me is the importance of experience and expertise and people with knowledge on the ground and listening to them and giving them.

To provide context and give an an hearing from them when there are key decisions to be made and we've done that consistently were consistently talking to our teams on the ground and 20 getting their input into editorial decision-making as well.

Ok.

Thank you very much indeed to all of you for joining us that was Alessandra galloni editor and chief or reuters news director of the afp news agency.

Richard Burgess director of news content at BBC News also Isabelle young journalist and documentary maker and just very quickly Isabel is your documentary online if you can find it online on my Twitter page, so you can follow on Twitter to find her work.

Thanks to to Emily bell director of the town centre to journalism at Columbia Emily I did say we going to talk in more detail about open source investigations that will be subject will come back to another edition of the media show thank you very much for all five of you.

Thank you for listening.

That's it today.

Bye.

Bye.