Read this: Suella Braverman's high-risk media strategy

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 in a few minutes, we're going to talk about it is political dramas in Westminster which in the short-term at least started with an article in the Times last week written by the now former home secretary Zoella Brosnan will get inside now that peace was negotiated and why sometimes politician still turns a newspaper articles to make their point but let's start with access to Gaza for the media on Monday 11 news organizations including CNN BBC New York Times and the associated press send a letter to the government of Israel and Egypt requesting access for international this to the Gaza strip in the Israel Gaza war reporting from inside Gaza has been restricted to those journalists already there and that work brings great day.

According to the committee to protect journalists 37 Palestinian journalists have been killed in Gaza since the War Began the only other journalist with access to the conflict a small number who from last week have been offered the chance to enter Gaza with the Israel defense forces CNN international diplomatic editor Robertson was one of them will speak to Nick in a moment, but his some of the reported file.

A few miles.im we pull up and I come on post soldiers living in blown apartment buildings destroyed it.

Shut up hard to imagine how civilians insured to Bodmin hair.

I would next journey much deeper into Gaza we arrived 100m from a battle with a mass.

well, Nick Robinson from CNN welcome to the media show thank you very much indeed for your time take us from the start on this who approached Who

The idf approached us and said there's an opportunity to embed inside of Gaza number of Germans have been in the past few weeks for the past week or so and this is an opportunity we wanted because we don't have the Independent access to God that you were just outline and this is embeds have become only way that you can get in with your own eyes and take a look and get a credible assess of what happened and what you're saying and ask the tough questions most importantly and when called up and said there's an opportunity to go into Gaza did they tell you the terms and say take or leave it with her and negotiation about how it would work.

If you wanted to go and I was in the middle of shooting something else another story about you know about hostages and and I said let me just check that out the plans of day and I was told well.

If you don't go then someone else will mean that sort of Standard Fare but it was quite obvious.

I just needed to take the check with check with you know colleagues that we could shift our plans for the day and and the answer was very quickly.

Yes, so yeah, it wasn't so the practicalities lined up from CNN point of view but what about the editorial considerations because you knew when you were going into guys that you wouldn't have the freedom that you might do on most of your reporting did any of the restraints that the israelis put on you give you pause for thought.

I've been doing in bed.

I guess for about 20 years and since they were good for that sort of first the phrase was first coined and first became available in the Gulf war in 2003 and Iran very cognisant of what entail and this particular one the early restrictions put on us show the faces of soldiers not only to show the phases of officers and not to show some sensitive military equipment that sort of standard operating procedure for him, but I think reporters we know that is the army has not gonna want to give away operational information and this is this is where we get an opportunity going see for ourselves.

I mean I was really blown away for one of a better word by the

Instruction and we would have got together.

We wouldn't have been able to see that and we not gone into take a look with our own eyes and see how bad it was in 30 years of War reporter.

I have never destruction as bad as I saw them when did Robinson from CNN you're staying with us and have some more questions about how that tripping two guys.

I went for you, but as you already alluded to CNN only wants to been offered the chance to go into Gaza with the idf Channel 4 News was offered that chance to and its foreign correspondent secunder kermani kimani was taken by the Odeon advantage boys close to a road that civilians were using to evacuate from the North of Gaza to the South and S sensors this voice note reflecting on his experience of making a report inside Gaza discussions within our team before agreeing to do this in bed, and we were quite careful on her to clarify for audience.

I'll reasons for doing so.

Because it's outside jealous right now.

We're not able to get into the Garda strip independently so this was an opportunity to go there and witnessed first-hand at least some of the operation there.

We we clarified with the army Israeli army beforehand.

They would have no editorial control over our report but you know crucially we would not allowed to move around independent asked if I could go and speak to some of the people on that road, who were playing they said no and it was it was quite an uncomfortable very uncomfortable experience of you that From a Distance we need to it.

They gave some insight into into the conditions that were taking place there in it and it also allows us to are some important questions of the Israeli officers overseeing it and we also used footage.

I think quite crucially from Palestinian journalist films on the road to give the perspective from from the other side of the scene that we were saying that secunder kermani from Channel

You still with the CNN international diplomatic editor Robinson and Nick during the nine 10-minute report that you made and what she posted on social media and of course played out on CNN television out as well had at one stage you're taking into a basement and the Israeli to a with you show you what they believe may be evidence that the building that you're within was used in some capacity during October 7th to take and the days that followed did you feel that you were able to interrogate the evidence that you were being shown in a way that was satisfactory to you.

I think ahead is very much the experience that we shared as well where the limits of what you can.

Do you cannot move away from the Idea troops that you're in there was no one likes a combined experience.

We didn't see any civilians at all again.

That was something that I just shocked me.

And reported about 2 I think to your question that I think you ask me the question again.

I'm so it's a long day and I'm really tired of course in one part of your report.

You're taking into a basement and you're showing a number of things a poster on the wall at chair and other things within the human and the Israeli spokesperson, who's with you says that they are investigating whether these pointed towards the fact the building had been used as part of the October the attack of Hamas I just wondered in those moments where you felt that you were able to interrogate what you were showing and what you being shown and what you were being told as well as you might do another situation interrogate if you were on the person, who's if you know who's offering this evidence that he's presenting of these points that his presenting absolutely yeah.

One conversation challenging am on that and I said there are some people.

They're going to look at their something that you were just making a case that you have these connections connecting Hamas to the people that are going to think this is a fabrication and when you go in there as I was telling my colleague Anderson Cooper on the air that night.

You're looking forward to see if there are fabrication and asking those questions and the idf spokesman Frank quitely said no, this is what we believe.

This.

Is you know what we're saying is what we believe to be fight.

You know when so you showing us thinks that I'm saying are you showing us this to tell us there a hostage? Is there? No he said I'm not saying that but we'll have to do test so you know you don't have to do DNA analysis or whatever so you can ask the questions about what's being presented to you and that's what we did and then.

Yeah, that's the way that you can test and probe on what you're being sure and as and the report that you describe is available online at people listening want to look it up and watch it CNN Nick Robertson is with listening to our conversation is Tim Marshall a form of foreign affairs and diplomatic for Sky News 10.

Thanks for joining us on the media show you've been involved in negotiating and dissipating in a number of m beds over the years.

Do you think the experience of secunder kermani of Nick Robertson and others is an embedded in the sense that you would have understood it when relationship between military operations and journalist began.

1520 years ago temporary word for something.

It's been happening for decades and William Howard Russell was in bed for the times and then during the Crimean war in 1854 the act.

Process of it is not that new there are times when it's the only way to get access so we had to go to the military.

What access can we have you abide as Nick said by certain operational standards, because you cannot give away military secrets because you can get people killed.

I think knickers articulated very well what I think is the most important thing about this to bed.

You have not done this Rosberg it is often free Mr big as if there's something morally wrong with him bedding the railway to look at it.

Is that you negotiate with the authorities and by the way people in bed with the people in bed with Karen Fighters in Myanmar important points to remember.

This is not the only prospective.

It's not as if you ask.

Propagating propaganda from one side, it is one perceptive.

We saw next perspective and there are many and many others so I I don't have much time for most of the criticism of the process you make a defence of embedding in a number of different environments.

Have you ever been involved in an arrangement with one another in afterwards, thought no this didn't work for me journalistic Lee

I've had limited experience.

I had it.

I've had a couple of times in in Afghanistan and a couple of times in Iraq neither occasion.

Did I think I was actually stopped from doing anything because I'll give an example in Afghanistan we went out on patrol in the sand in Provence now.

It would be impossible to experience that without being with the Military angel walking through a minefield.

Where is people in front of us were busy this week before mine and we'll get kidnapped so it's completely impossible.

So it what you're getting is this one perspective in a long is balloon with lots of other perspectives.

So I'm always understood the the problems of it the limitations if you like of it, but it's it's I think actually inherently quite.

Are you both know where the only time? I would say we wouldn't you shouldn't do it is if you can get the same access and see the same things independently then.

I think you should independently but if you can't it's better to compromise and thank you very much indeed just before I let you and it going if I think I know the answer this but I was going to ask would you do it again if your offer the chance to go back in with the idf?

I think that the short answer is yes, because it is again.

The only way to get try to get some independent assessment of what's happening and you have to go and you'll have to take that you have to take that opportunity you have to ask the tough questions as we did and you have to you know that explanation of what you've witnessed and experienced and the level of of information.

You can get that you're challenged it and tested it.

This is what you've discovered and Tim says this is part of much broader reporting.

We have a colleague who are covering all sides of the story expert panels on with Anderson just the evening we came out from Gaza after I was explaining about hour in bed, and what would seem and then we had represented everything for the

Cross on speaking about the difficulties that Desi so we are one piece of a bigger package of reporting so it is absolutely definitively import to take those opportunities and exploit them and pressed the authorities, but then best freelancers like just one does I think this is important and you did say on thoughts when standing at the back of that hospital and the top spokesman was about to take a SIM through a massive tank shell hole in the back of the hospital whiskers.

I said stop hold on a minute.

Why is there in the back of the hospital so we got his explanation? Why is that? Why are you presenting this as such? Why are you showing us list? What do you say to the people that say this may be occasions, so it's vital that we get the opportunity to see it and press the important questions, that's what I'm in bed.

Just for you and it's part of a bigger package of programs.

Nick Robinson thank you very much for Juniors on the medion show that CNN international diplomatic editor and also Tim Marshall form of foreign affairs and diplomatic editor for Sky News now.

There's sure you're aware.

It's been a busy week in Westminster David Cameron is back as Foreign Secretary suella, braverman is out as home secretary in while there are any number of factors that are played in to the home secretary in her job the immediate for around celebrant began with an article in the Times posted on Wednesday evening last week and Road police must be even-handed with protest.

There is a senior officers play favourites when it comes to protesters cube number 10 facing repeated questions about whether the prime minister agreed and that appears to be just the start of the tensions between the two of them Scott senior political correspondent at the Times Jerry thanks for joining us this process works.

How the times have got that article.

Well in the same way there any newspapers get any opinion piece from a minister they decide they want to play sit and and an agreement is reached.

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward process when these things happen and it's been the same every place of work and that's how they come about.

I don't think there's any need to pay for it and do you get involved in the words or even the word counter is a very much well a problem and rights as much as she likes on you put it in the paper and kind of structure that things tend to take but no I mean it was pretty much when you say yeah your name and I think the only.

Please is it but I can't take I think celebrants article certainly passed that test at generated North Pole of news 100.

You have any concerns about the time simply providing a platform for someone making whatever political point they want to make on speaking so that's why I put my paygrade but what what I do think in a personal capacity that if one of the most senior cabinet members in Britain wants to put their views across.

I can't think of a better place first.

Do it then not just the times but one of the newspapers we actually have a right to hear what they actually think and what they actually want say so no, I don't no problem so we looking at the article there from the perspective of the times now.

Let's look at it from the perspective of political communication.

Senior director communications consultancy apco worldwide and a former advisor the David Cameron Theresa May and William Hague and show you also work with Boris Johnson in his campaign for mayor of London you've placed articles in the Press for ministers in the past tell us about the process from your side of the equation.

I mean Jerry's write in terms of what she said there are slightly different circumstances, where actually a publication can ask can approach a minister at the bright something so it can be done in Reverse coming directly from a politician number Lister and you know there is often a question as advisor if that request where to come that way you know what is it you looking for are you looking for a particular patient to be to hide? Are you looking for anything 62b said now sort of publication would steer you but in the event of the publication that has for example of big.

They might ask you know we're looking for someone that can cover this area or for that area so big campaigns like the sun on fair fuel tax or some of the health campaigns at the Daily Mail of running the you might have that kind of conversation about the content but on this occasion it appears that I don't know if it was it appears that has been said that the approach was made from the home secretary's time.

I'm not where it was the other way round but then obviously the process goes on behind the scenes about clearance on clearance according to DFT Rishi Sunak spokesperson said the article was not cleared by number with that if that was the case with that surprise you and your experience would have been normal then ask of this nature by a senior cabinet minister would be seen by a lot of people including number 10.

I mean there's all sorts of ways that the communication happened so for example.

You know things are in the famous number 10 grid which will have heard of talked about before so sometimes they can be clear.

Play some things aren't Wanted on particular days, because there will be a focus on some other policy areas you would normally have the contact run past at least somebody in the number 10 press office if it's more contentious.

It might get I suppose we called up the flagpole and it was going to somebody more senior it appears in this situation that it did go slightly higher up the food chain and they certain edits that requested that number 10 appear to have let it go let it go in shall we say by some means that those edits were not made by seller brother and Steam and when you say the grid you're referring to the plans that the government or particular Ministries will have for the media.

Is that right? Yeah? There's a number 10 central grid and then there's those plans kind of being korporate the different department remember the remember the government's attempts to regain control of the news agenda with their various weeks that but they ended up not being overly successful particularly over the summer but that

Government Focus they will try to get you know in several ministers or sort of announcements made by those ministers in a particular week or a certain today because they want to sort the media with what they're doing Joe thank you very much for your help to see this for a political comms perspective let's bring in the journalist Michael crazy work for Newsnight at the BBC 4 Channel 4 News anthem any other Michael welcome.

Are you surprised that a placement of an article in a newspaper and manoeuvre that politicians have done for many decades is still able to have this kind of impact it doesn't surprise me at all.

I mean in the old days a politician.

Powell's rivers of blood speech back in 68 which is one of the note Victoria speeches of all time.

He chose to make a that's what Tony Benn would do when he was being rebellious against the Wilson and Callaghan governments in the 70s people tend not to make big platform speeches these days and the times was an obvious choice.

The Times is without doubt it in my View anyway the best political newspaper around by long way and obvious platform.

You don't and you know the times is bound to give it the paint splash the headline and likely to pick it up on times radio and other associated outlets within the group and other papers.

Don't always have those kind of link so it's an obvious place to go I suppose the other will be the come here to the BBC or another broadcast but there aren't that many long form interviews these days in broadcasting and the dangers of those cos you get a tough interviewer so writing an article on question by the Times it is perhaps the more attractive way or indeed another newspaper the more attractive way of doing these days.

See you more in control if you do that rather than don't take a take a broadcast interview and Joe when you're looking across the different newspapers that sell a problem and could have chosen.

What would be the criteria?

Would be applying what does one paper offer vs.

Another connection now between publications with particular radio station so as Michael said you've got that connection with x and x radio you might look particularly and journalist that are at those publications to a particularly strong on social media in my Amplify your words you would also look at the timing so for example when you look at release of stories some publication some newspapers are quicker at getting those stories up and live so this all of days of the midnight in bar.

Go when you would have a story published in newspaper for the day.

You wouldn't see anything of it and that following morning as social media and digital platforms have developed.

We actually get stories of break the night before that means you actually make the news the night before.

Play the you thinking you're going to be yes or no and this article went live I think on the Times website at 10 p.m.

On Wednesday night.

Just in case there's only listening and wondering what the various papers had to say about current state of politics particularly between celebrant and Rishi Sunak the males editorial says time to end Tories ruined as clowns show the sun's leader says United I see Civil War selection suicide and the Telegraph said Tory MPs are acutely aware that another change of leader would look farcical to the public now Michael you'd expect these debates be playing out through the country selling newspapers, but was striking on Monday and on Tuesday is the story unfolded was we were seeing podcast George Osborne on his podcast reacting Alastair Campbell on his podcast reacting of course there's any news which hosts a number of people who are Tory MPs who have connections with atora suet playing host to some of the debates within the Tory party, so it's interesting that the different types of Media that was.

Being used to share reaction is stronger than ever been with the the wealth of output that outlets that you're going to have the reaction the reaction Twitter and so on but I mean it doesn't that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that there's always plumbing it was a very and sleeping yesterday when when she wrote hurt leaving letter and in the middle of that there was this story about how she agrees a document yes with Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and that barely got covered anywhere and I couldn't understand it is so there's sometimes a unity of approach by the media even though there are so many outlets nowadays.

I'm sure there this including Gerry Scott Jerry he would like to get your hands on that talk to me.

I'm sure wouldn't you?

I'm sure it with no we started this program in fact throughout it.

We've been looking at the different journalistic processes that our guests have had Jerry let's finish with you when the article arrives and you see what the problem is going to say to you then speak the news desk and does the x line up a range of material a range of coverage to go with the article from the then home secretary.

I know that's a bit of a sit on the fence answer, but you know I was involved in this particular.

What exactly how it went this one but in general.

Yeah, I mean you don't you calling you say this is what we've got.

This is what we think we should do you tend to run it as it has a news story of and then events tend to take over it's event certainly did unfold after it was published on Wednesday night.

Thank you very much indeed for joiners.

Thanks to all five of I guess CNN international diplomatic editor Nick Robertson Tim Marshall

Former foreign affairs and diplomatic for Sky News jota Nazi director at the communications consultancy apco worldwide Michael crick with me here in the studio journalist of course and Jerry's senior political correspondent at the Times many thanks for all of them many thanks to all of you for listening or talk to you soon.