Read this: How CNN got into Gaza

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts ban on journalist getting into Gaza is it about wanting to control the narrative of the conflict or as they say to protect journalists from getting killed these are some of the questions for today show in a moment from CNN Clarissa Ward you manage to find the band by joining aid workers to cross the border from Egypt the BBC's Jeremy Bowen is here so federmann APS news director in the region is with and the managing editor of Al Jazeera Mohamed mobile joins us from Qatar welcome to you all and thank you for coming on the program at Muhammad if I could start with you because of course Al Jazeera has had teams and throughout but that has come that reporting is coming a very heavy price most recently your cameraman summer Abu Bakr was killed and your guys have your he was also injured this was in carnew.

Bounce in Southern gothic, can you tell us what happened? Thanks for having me actually what happened is very diverse taking loads for the family of central.car was in the process of conducting his daily duties as a journalist trying to shed light on the impact on civilians and the lack of international intervention and make sure that you no give voice to the voiceless out there because you know that no other international and local the only cornerstone for the coverage and they're taking the lead and making sure that this happens so with the wet our correspondent who himself lost his family in an area and Israeli air strike recently as sodium.

Cover the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike the Talbot at school that people resorted to because the bombardment of the universe is the very best so once you have arrived.

There was targeted by an airstrike unfortunately both of them were injured well managed to walk our correspondent responded to in front of all this kind of his struggles to continue to cover so he managed to walk because his injury wasn't but unfortunately Sandra boudicca's injury was really severe so he couldn't walk so wet for like 15 minutes until he reached the safe area where Civic workers were able to evacuate to Merthyr hospital in.

But I wasn't able to do so we have spent like 5 hours in Open coverage into the big international community to intervene to help co-ordinate with the idf to have an ambulance go to the area to evacuate after 5 hours 30-minutes we were able to reach the area and the area was completely destroyed even the roads the struggle to get to the area where he was apparently there was twice by an Israeli drone according to Celtic workers there and the evacuated Sandra was really in a very severe condition and he lost his life.

He was killed in the first.

It was evacuated back to another hospital and another devastating.

For ages of the family of 1 produced what minister office and a correspondent while ago and before that back in the days in a year Serena live in covering the conflict as well and significant numbers of JLS as you say I'll have been killed during this conflict.

I think you said you're preparing a legal file to send to the international criminal court over this of course of course.

I mean this was that we believe that this was according to the reports that we have gathered from the film that this was intentional target.

I mean they were wearing a process and helmet area was the actually the word acidic workers with the ambulances and it went to the school the shelter school of fat.

Evacuate qualities and danger danger people after the air is dry.

So there was a coordination with the IVF through the Red Cross for them to go with this convo and make sure that the cover the aftermath and the Civic workers do the job so we believe that this was intentional this was targeted killing and this was not the first time actually Serena what was killed by a sniper who old investigations done by independent organisation through it was intentional killing and we believe the terrible that covers was was killed by an airstrike and needless to say that he was cut into two pieces and it was really I mean devastating for his family for us to see him and that condition it was only trying to and by the way somebody who's had the chance.

Immigrate to wear his family is now there.

I mean refuse is ASDA story is my store that is nice tragedy and as well as this and the entire 12 people everyday.

I keep replacing pressure on them to be saved to make sure that the life open DC know we'll take this part of this community.

I'm going to because I want to bring in my bone in a minute.

I do also want to say I caused that the idf has a statement takes all operationally feasible measures to protect both the villains and journalist and that never and will never deliberately target journalist Jeremy Bowen you heard what Muhammad said he believes as well how to do a Jealous what's your sense of that were my senses that there are questions about Israel's fire discipline whatever they are official rules are I think we saw that with the way?

Chilled three of Aaron hostages the other day including one who was reportedly killed after the officer and command until the meant to cease fire and after the man is shattered and that doesn't suggest particularly good fire discipline in an incident in Lebanon and 2000 I was my myself and my team with file on by and Israeli tank in Southsea po5 over the border and again.

It was the same sort of message from them.

It was all treasure accidentally killed the the driver and fix it I was working with and they tried to kill me and the cameraman another Lebanese go malacanang and and afterwards they said well.

You know it's some excellent of War they thought you were terrorists a general said to me that don't understand they were terrified boys in their tank.

They thought you might be out to Harman so.

You know then, I will always have explanations but there but those people who are at the receiving end.

They are often hard to accept.

Ok.

Thank you for that and more from you both much more in the moment.

I'm in at the start that CNN has become one of the first international broadcasters to enter go without embedding with the idf achieve international correspondent Clarissa Ward filed a report last week.

Just crossed the border into southern gothic.

This is the first time with actually been able to get into Gaza and since October and we are now driving to a field hospital that has been set up by the way arriving at the field hospital.

We meet Dr Abdullah elmir sooner Desert tour begin when the ambulance.

Real life this is what you here all the time now.

At least 20 times a day experience and how she got access to have been working on this for about 7 weeks and we had really tried almost every conceivable you had written a letter to the Governance of Egypt and Israel which was assigned by the BBC and a variety of other print and television outlets appealing for access on the ground in Gaza and still we had not received the necessary permission we got word that the United Arab Emirates the UAE were planning to open a field hospital in Southern Gaza and we reached out to them to see if it might be possible.

Is it the facility those conversations did go on for a number of weeks before it finally came together in your reporting.

We see you in a driving through the streets of Gaza whose car was that? How did you come to be on it? Did you have to pretend that you work for the hospital? We did not pretend that we worked or the hospital we did travel with a convoy of medical volunteers and some medical supplies that were being taken to the hospital to be completely transparent.

I am not really aware of the details of the conversations that were had between parties and various other parties who would have had to have agreed on this.

I will say that I have a stamp in my passport that says state.

Did go through an actual border so it was done with the awareness.

I would imagine of of all the various certainly of the Egyptians in the Palestinians and one would imagine the israelis to be that means somewhere along the line you have to get permission from Hamas to do it again because I wasn't directly involved in those conversations.

I can't say exactly but I would assume that they were aware of our presents.

They're you seen of course international journalist go in with the idf Israeli defence forces in a sort of embed people know that turn the sort of that we get taken in with soldiers or whatever as a journalist did you was there any sense to you that you were in bed with Hamas considering that you know that everything know there was no sense of that whatsoever genuinely.

As I said we didn't have any direct dealings with them.

I'm not even sure the extent to which the emirati is dealt with them that would be a question.

You'd have to put to them like more important the word certainly no constraints on her actual reporting beyond security considerations which were you need to stay car.

You can go to the hospital you can have some time on the ground there and then you need to get back in the car and leave so there was no freedom for us to stop the car get out and unilaterally try to move around how long were you there for in all and for people haven't seen the reporting.

What did you find in the end? I think we were on the ground for about 2-hours which obviously is a fraction of what you would ideally want as a journalist to be able to really get a feel for a place.

Arrived at the hospital and within minutes as we were beginning this tour.

There was a large strike nearby in 10 minutes after that took these were brought in from that strike a 13-year old boy who was missing half his leg and older man whose foot was literally dangling off getting a condensed of you into what any given our in Gaza actually looks like and there is a moment of removing a map where you seemed moved to Tears talking into children in hospital.

I mean this is a conflict that has struck close to the lives of so many local reporters.

Do you think we sometimes have unrealistic expectations when it comes to journalistic objective? I think that it is possible to do your job as a journalist to present a situation fairly and factually and also to be.

Human being and to be moved in a situation, you don't make the story about you and your emotions and your response but if it happens organically in a moment and it's captured on camera.

I don't think there's anything wrong with including it because you're basically really just signalling to the Saturday should take one position or another on on any given issue or conflict that it's real sometimes we become so fixated on the neutrality that we take the horror out of a moment.

We take the reality out of the moment.

We're left feeling cold from a and snow I think in certain circumstances frankly if we can all the grey bed a child at 2 year old boy who's lost both of his parents.

Who is disfigure who doesn't understand that his father is dead? Who is wailing baba baba, when he sees the nurse because the nurse looks like his father if we can all agree that that's a try another.

That's a horror.

I don't do that is being in anyway.

Transgressing journalistic ethics.

I think we can be human beings and your jobs at the same time you called a glimpse from a window onto hell.

I would have this reporting trip compares to others you've done it for example in causing your left or mariappa stories are never easy to cover this one was particularly harrowing.

It was striking just how densely populated geyser is there is people on the usual in situations where there's heavy bombardment.

I think another conflict zones.

I have visited you'll find some of the places are deserted.

Not the case here because there is nowhere to go the other point I really want underscore and it kind of relates to your last question as well, but we have all been so dependant on the work of journalists inside Gaza who have been dying at record numbers.

I mean we haven't seen so many journalist killed in a conflicts since they started recording the data on this according to the committee for the Protection of journalists and the risks that they have taken in the work that they have done to try to give people around the world the sense of the reality on the ground.

I think many of us feel incredibly humbled by that what reaction did you get from the Israeli authorities once they found out you'd gone in I didn't have any direct interaction with the israelis.

Israeli public I saw one clip on a news channel.

Where are reporter is asked about my story and says you know it's going to be a headache for Israel if more Western journalists get in and when I've spoken to members of the Israeli public about their response it tends to be of it's a tragedy what's happening in Gaza but just needs to surrender and release the hostages but they brought this upon themselves, but and whatever whatever are there kind of excuses are caveat they might offer would be a gather that one of the idf spokespeople mentioned the reporting just to say that we risk essentially but I don't think that was really anything to refute in the reporting ultimately because we hit record the minute.

What's that border and we recorded for the whole 2-hours and what happened happened? Why do you think Israel isn't allowing for an international journalists in wedding fairs the state reason which is the complexity of the security situation because of the ferocity of the bombardement because of the number of journalists inside Gaza who have been killed.

I think it would be very challenging if there were dozens or hundreds of international journalists inside Gaza right now.

It would almost certainly necessitate a shift in Tactics that these realities are using or else result in the deaths of many international journalists as well and then I think there are people who would say that the israelis well as this journalist from whichever is really channel.

It was said himself on television that having a lot of international journalists on the ground will.

Play increase the pressure on the israelis in terms of documenting and publicising and amplifying the the horses that are taking place that was CNN Clarissa Ward she got into Gaza from Egypt to countries were saying that also Bans journalist from entering girls are also presumably allowed Clarissa and her team in Jeremy Bowen from the BBC I'll ask you the same question I asked Clarissa just at the interview.

Why do you think Israel isn't letting international journalists into Gaza at the Revolution was saying it may be that they're concerned about our so I don't know about that.

I think the the couple of main reasons first of all the information Battlefield is really important in Modern Warfare you know why are people from Israel is because they're seeing was going on inside Gaza having a load of foreign journalists in there with you being stories out with.

Increase that pressure probably on Israel said you never things that they don't they rather we didn't see the levels of destruction the levels of killing as they want to control that media battle thing as the main the main thing and I think that is also feeling I have a few things they brother at well.

We've heard I was going to say about the situation for Palestinian civilians from what gets out but just little actually about the Fate of the hostages.

What do you make that? I'm clearly that's not something that people running a mouse one just to know about and I think the international journalists were in there.

They wouldn't be getting any answers last used as either unless of course the mass decided that they wanted to know I mean there in presumably in tunnels in secret locations, so wouldn't expect a journalist to get any access to that will let me bring enjoy federmann.

He is associated Press News director but is rather Palestinian territories and

Fat Joe is also on the board of the foreign press association which has got a legal case on the go in Israel to force the authorities will try and Force the authorities to let jealous in Joe welcome to the media.

So just give us the storm that legal case competition to Israel's supreme court this week.

We are demanding immediate and independent Exeter Gaza this is every can't wait is softwar power in 2007.

We've gone through this before but we are now in de75 of this.

This is by far the period weather has been no access to go to the international media, so we are requesting immediate access independent access.

We understand that their safety concerns which she had mentioned but we think that the international media organizations and the correspondence themselves should be making the decisions about their safety and not these really are and what do you think will get it over the line legally?

He has managed to get access to go so I think the legal action in the past.

It's a it's a top-down, but it's not a lot better by Israel Supreme Court in the past has been receptive to some of our arguments.

We went for a similar battle in 2008/2009 where there's something that was what we ended up prevailing in that case in the Rolling was that aid worker was open to eat workers journalist should also be given access this time now the rules have changed because of October 7th attack it changed open rolls again longest we've ever had and I don't have sympathetic.

The Justice is it going to be this time around and Jeremy Bowen Mina Al Jazeera as we've been sent has been reported since the start of the conflict the BBC is also been there, but is it the case that it's reporting by the likes of say you know Clarissa at CNN could really shift public opinion in the United States

I think public opinion has been affected by the reporting and Palestinian journalists and others have done and also there's an enormous one thing it's really transform the coverage was in recent years is the video that comes out from people's phones course that's got to be verified, etc.

Etc, but it used to be anywhere in living memory when I started you countries resumes conversely to pull down the shutters on what was going on and you can't do that certainly if they were you know familiar faces on this network.

I think that would deepen things but I think the the news is coming out anyway after a stration is that from my point of view the best way to report these things is to analyse and ears as you can't that's frustrating.

I spent more than a month based in ascalon in Southern Israel in the first month of the wall listening to it.

You can hear.

When is Anna crashes and there were some there was something coming fire as well? They're not a great deal as time went by mostly taken care of by the Israeli anti missile systems, but I couldn't get in there.

So was no it was my fault that the what we doing was somewhat incomplete as a result of not being there as I Witnesses ourselves.

We did the best we could to make up for that deficiency but I think it was clearly going to be deficiency Mohammed managing editor of Al Jazeera the israelis of threaten to shut you down and say you are effectively a propaganda arm of Hamas actually with that smear campaign against engine is in the kind of funeral exclusively against us.

It is also against the older some members of the Israeli government basket for it to be I mean the Sun newspaper.

X

Used to that I mean, but the thing is that during the Ukraine Russia conflict which we have covered by the way blood extensively as we are covering the war as we've been covering the complete the palestinian-israeli conflict from the beginning of 20 25 years back.

I mean the US ambassador to the UN phrase that in front of the United Nations committee.

Russia isn't able to silence and now we've been hearing from the Israeli government.

They don't like coverage.

I mean it is always like that.

I mean you're not going to satisfy both parties the fact that you are preventing dehumanization of one party of the council the fact that you are closing the inconvenient truth is of course and comfortable for the Israeli government that you know the fact that 20000 people killed in this conflict is.

Comfortable situation for the Israeli government at the fact that the US president go near and say that the numbers are incorrect and then walk this back because of the cupboards that and 20-minutes actually pictures are gonna get through the internet are going to get through the public opinion international community because interestingly now.

We are you lying match on citizen journalist then our you know.

What are the Israeli saying in terms of news about what's happening in Gaza

Well, very little when you look at the when you turn on his really TV screens the coverage is very Israel focused.

I always say that this country.

It feels like October 7th October 8th is the country still coming to terms with what happened that triggered this whole Warsaw it's non-stop coverage families people are soldiers were wounded or killed in your family stories of heroism things like that very very little coverage very where is what's going on in Gaza in if you try to raise this with many is really audiences.

They don't want to hear about it, then very focused on your own grief and trauma and only got about 20 but I wonder for the and you know if news outlets had free access to get into Gaza regardless of the risks.

Do you think it would also the cause of the conflict?

Increase the diplomatic pressure more quickly than it has I certainly think that it might move the dial on that but most important having more information would be getting out.

I would a supporting would be getting out from people who were Familiar on screens in people's living rooms up and down you know the countries in the world.

So it would be a better thing for openness and truthful and that is the I'm afraid always got time for thank you all so much for coming on the media show Mohamed Joe federmann.

Jeremy Bowen and of course thanks to Clarissa Ward from CNN earlier.

Thank you for listening goodbye.

I found her Siobhan English Rose from BBC Radio 4 guests typers in Transylvania

Actually, you don't totally looks like one fresh start in the City of Angels is changed quite a bit of the last.

She's already deeply in love with the night the Perth to Stirling to buy I think I know what have I done listen on BBC sounds.