Read this: The Post Office Scandal: a failure of the press?

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 why did it take a TV for a huge miscarriage of Justice to get the headlines it deserves with you guys in the whole program to the post office scandal who decides what makes the news and why is only now that the story is really through in his not the editor of Private Eye as with us Rebecca Thompson who broke the story in computer weekly back in 2009 is also here Amelia gentleman from the Guardian you uncover the Windrush is in the studio and we're hoping to hear from 10 brentnall who ran a Post Office in Pembrokeshire and was convicted of false accounting in 2010 and saw that quashed 11 years later welcome to you and let's begin with you in ITV drama, Mr Bates V post office has created such a storm lead stories the days the prime minister this afternoon and answer new legislation to overturn.

Have you seen anything like this before in terms of impact? No, I think there's an absolutely remarkable people talk about play for today or Cathy come home, but you're going back a long time there.

You know people ask the question on.

Why did it take an ITV drama? I'm saying good good for ITV drama.

That's what drama does and without the journalism which is the second question what you need is drama.

There would be no drama the facts and the detail on the drama come from decades very very effective journalism by a very few people including private including private like we weren't first that has to go to computer weekly, but we were consistent and a lot of people claiming the credit this time.

I do have a letter about sweet letter from Alan Bates sent to me on Saturday thank you private ifrits coverage.

So why don't you call your coverage? I told you so

I did tell everyone that's my authentication for saying we did the story a lot and I think the point is here but go up and down interest and it's repetition and a million is this extremely well repetition repetition almost to the point of boredom whereabouts in my going around the post office with enough of that know you and you do it until something happens and the doggedness of the journalist involved only reflects the dog Ignis of Alan Bates and the others involved in this you never gave up.

They never gave up knocking on the door.

I mean they tried MPs you know they tried everybody but in the end.

It was the journalist who turned it into a story and however long it took can have a late it.

Is you know hats off to igb for putting it on.

The men some of the subpostmasters found out they weren't the only ones having problems with the Horizon computer system to take us back to that.

Yeah, it came via letters from Castleton and went from there really we found your Hamilton by repeat that was written about her on the Daily Mail about her court case and the villages coming together.

It was a long time.

It was a challenging story to put together, but it was it was great to work with that with those people.

I mean you could you write from you could see that was pretty special person.

I guess he was really really dog it and yeah, I like that and you spent I think 6-months investigating that first story will you surprised that it didn't snowball from their back in 2009.

I was at the time.

I was really hoping for a bigger impact and computer weekly success with other investigations that they worked on being picked up by Sunday papers in the day program, so I did have hi.

I was surprised at the time.

I probably a bit disappointed at the time and I'll probably was that the bottle was instant.

I mean she 2009 we did the first piece in 2011.

I still got the letter straight back friend this system is totally thought was this story is totally pointless.

They were aggressive and was aggressive with journal.

They had been with the original complainant and it put a lot of people off and it was about a technical issue.

Sorry, I'm not going to go on but because computer weekly Diddy and it's so well.

It still hasn't turned into human interest stories and that's finally finally what we got so many people listen to this one of first found out about the Scandal to the Radio 4 series The Great post office.

Which chartered the horrors in detail you can find it now on BBC sounds, it was presented by Nick Wallis a freelance journalist.

He's been covering the story for years and I spoke to Nicola Leah series 4 Radio 4 is something that people come up to me and talk to me about and I've had a pretty much everywhere.

I go on the number of the talks and again most of the audience because they heard it through the Radio 4 Series so it's very flattering that it had that can cut through because we've Radio 3 hard to tell what impact any kind of program has anecdotally quite well.

I'm going back to the stars when you first got involved with the story which is many years ago now.

What reaction did you get early on when you tried to get to news at let's I was very very lucky that the story fell into my lap.

I was working on BBC Surrey is a Breakfast Show presenter and I got a Tweet from a company called.

Cars looking to pitch for the BBC Surrey taxi account now anyone knows anything about working in local BBC Radio the idea that we have our own account.

I found quite funny as well that depends whether I've got any great stories to tell us another TK Maxx story to tell you call me after the show his name is given the Mr and he told me on the telephone that his pregnant wife have been thrown in prison for a crime.

He didn't commit he mentioned that there was a campaign group already in existence call the justice for subpostmasters alliance and that there was an article already in the public domain written by Rebecca Thompson so it didn't take long before I was talking to Alan Bates here to Mr Bates vs.

The post office as head of the justice for subpostmasters Alliance so that became something that I took to my boss and being a bit young and even wet behind the ears and she said a minute.

We're talking about people have been.

Convicted through the chords and so she put me in touch another brilliant editor John in French who ran the Inside Out Strand in Southampton for BBC One South in 24-hours a day and came back that sounds like a good story.

I put my two best producers on it and if it's you can front the film.

I thought that was sorry had legs.

I thought is people telling the truth.

This is huge and so I started approaching the word of BBC I took the story to private eye and I put it up on my own personal blog and the response that got people getting in touch saying the same thing happened to me.

I just thought this has to go somewhere believe in anything get any traction and it was very very hard to get the newspapers interested in it which is probably down to my lack of contacts and the difficulty of selling the story is it that or is it about it's a text Story You've Got the post office presumably you know robustly defending their position.

Types of is robustly defending its position is a big reason why the story did not get away.

What were they? Are you getting from them letters of the reporters who were looking at the story and basically saying you're really going to embarrass yourself if you do anything on this what you mean.

We can understand why you're reporting might have been listening to these people but they're barking up the wrong tree and you just gonna fall flat on your face if you publish anything like this.

There.

Is it never happened to me personally, but it happened to a number that I work with some of them actually and that was the great thing about the way the BBC handle this protected and just get on with what you're doing so I was able to get away for the Inside Out strands when existed at The One Show really supportive and then eventually I was getting so much information covertly that I felt.

Time to try and get a Panorama commissioned even that Panorama came under enormous pressure from the Post Office and it was delayed and its transmission because of the amount of nonsense that the post office was firing at the BBC in all directions you actually tell me about that sort of a court case looming and I just thought I'd like to be there because I know how this works when you go to court you hear documents been referenced and once they've been caught you are able to then ask for them.

So I thought I have to sit in on every single day of this trial because I know there will be a moment where something comes up and budgets pay people like me to sit on a story that people are not interested in for the for an entire month so.

I need people out there who are interested in this story.

You might be prepared to put their hands in their pockets and I worked out the the smallest amount of money.

I could get away with in order to survive for a month and they did come out during the course of the trial and form the basis for the next and at what point do you think you became not just a journalist but I can pay that do you see yourself in that way? I'm not complaining.

I don't think that's helpful for them.

I'm not championing their cause other than when I come across something which I think is significant.

I will raise it with my head.

It is alright my blog and people can do what they want with it.

It's actually I don't get me wrong.

I think what Amelia gentleman, Windrush story is phenomenal but I was trying up by the BBC and just that scrupulous objectivity and challenge that you have to bring to every single line of your script and every single fact you want to listen to the public domain.

I think it's the reason why.

No one has been able to point it any failings in the journalist and the BBC has produced on this story and I'm quite proud of that because there were times when we were trying to put things into the public domain lot of people including the post office in parts of the government would rather we didn't what was the smallest can you find the great post office trial on BBC sounds now and the Panorama edition from 2022 about this is available on iPlayer and Amelia gentleman the Guardian reporter who just refer to is with me in the studio.

She's won many awards for investigations including on the Windrush scandal welcome Amelia all their parallel between the coverage of this story about the post office and your Windrush report it.

Yeah, there is so many parallels both in terms of the suffering that the affected by the Windrush scandal went through but also in terms of the process that Wallace described trying to get.

National attention for this story, I was really lucky to be working for the Guardian who understands the significance of the issues right away and I was giving a lot of time to go back and continue interviewing individual after individual have been wrongly classified by the home office as being an illegal immigrant even though they come to the UK decades earlier each of them entirely but I think what was a direct parallel was the absolute silence in the rest of the media Landscape it took months for other organisations with the exception of Channel 4 to follow-up and it took a long time to get a political responses the other parallela causes the very robust response that we had from the home office every time I was going to publish their store.

Somebody who died have been wrongly arrested or made homeless or sacked from their jobs.

I get a comment from the home office suggesting that somehow the person who was the mistakes themselves made an error that they needed to sort out their own problems and the the Guardian work barking up the wrong tree to suggest that this was a widespread problem getting big picture.

What is your sense of why some stories get picked up and others don't who decides what I think both subpostmasters and the retirement age people who are affected by the Windrush scandal or not powerful or glamorous people.

I think they were people who both the best the post office and some Media organisations felt won't Keighley significant they felt they were people who could be ignored and I think that's why they stories both went under the radar for a long time.

They were voiceless well.

I'd like to bring him on his people certainly not being ignored now, but potentially has been for many years.

It's Tim brentnall.

He's a format sub postmaster at in the Road Post Office in Pembrokeshire his conviction was finally overturned by the court of Appeal in 2021 after some incredibly difficult years hello Tim thank you so much for coming on the programme afternoon what I wonder if you're with the media show I'm interested in your experience of the media.

I mean when you were first accused.

Did you approach any journalist with your story were any in court for your trial? What what did you find know when I was first investigated and then charged eventually with Forza counting post office as you probably already told Neil each and everyone of us.

We were the only ones that we're having this kind of problem when this happened to me back in in 2008 2009-2010.

I didn't have an idea that it could be a problem with the computer.

I'm being honest but I didn't have any any tools or Disclosure from the Post Office to leave me down that path.

So when they said that I was the only one that has an issue.

It lead me to start to believe that it was a mistake.

I've made contact in the media that point to try and I certainly don't want people knowing that I've been accused firstly of theft until I pay back the The shortfall.

They demanded and then with false accounting and as a group you know how do you and your fellow postmasters feel about how the media handle this story before the ITV drama filled failed by the media or not? I don't feel failed by the media have been numerous stories over the years.

I missed the initial computer computer weekly stories because it is nearer specialist it computer magazine.

I first got a hand.

Might be other people in this position and his campaign existed for a little sidebar in retail.

Sort of retail managers magazine that they sent three free through the poster to stop people trying to sell squash and cigarettes for meeting in Bicester they would have a 50 of us and then we have the second site investigation and think started with the worst stories in in the media, but didn't catch the public attention even when I have my conviction quashed in 2021 and we thought that perhaps the news of that or when when Alan one is trial that thing I may start to explode on move forward and we might get some backing behind us.

It's still I think most people read it as a computer problem or an IT problem.

It's just not that interesting the drama.

Brought it forward to to everybody because they did such a good job of showing both have despicably the post office of behave to a sofa last 15 years and the human the personal cost that way down on all of us.

Can you been on Breakfast TV this morning? You're here now.

You've been doing other interviews to is it a weird experience to go from no not a lack of coverage, but you know essentially not much to being everywhere now.

It's been a little bit of a whirlwind this last week since since the the drama and I haven't put my phone down for more about 5-minutes several people have asked that question also, how did you cope with it or are you going a little bit sick of it, but I've been banging my head against the wall almost since Michael trying to get people to take note that's no criticism of the media.

Just trying to get our story out there, so there's no way that I could sit here and complain now that people are taking notice and

The pressure that the media brought the government in the last week has really Force the issue forward to the announcement that the prime minister made today, which I don't think we would have got to this quickly that drama.

We would have still been waiting for a for 12-months of the end of the enquiry and can make a difference we all hope it doesn't Rebecca Thompson I wanted to ask you know we feel like it does but does it in fact I mean I read that one of the sub postmasters actually gave the judge your article at her trial and she still went to prison about time with with with judges understanding technology and understanding that it can be available and can have faults.

I think the drama has got that emotional writing can sometimes struggle to get across and also think it's three making that sort of human story so evident.

It's made people care.

You know them.

Loaders Media saying over the years and then let's keep clicking on it and telling papers.

It's not going to continue to cover it in the way that it needs to be covered.

You know that that repetition sing with the M50 play right into a stunning petitions.

That's when they care and so I think it's the sort of the scale and the Numbers that's made a huge difference this week Amelia gentleman from the Guardian I wonder whether it's always be the case that a well-written drama with top actors has always been able to grab the public attention and away but no piece of journalism can brilliant drama made about Windrush by the BBC that won a BAFTA cold sitting in limbo it still on iPlayer and you should absolutely watch it that covers the life of one person and it's so powerful and when I was watching it Twitter went mad in response to it people will say I never knew this would happen.

This is so shocking and that was quite so boring as a journalist because you think that you've made that point over and over again.

But it's true that it's drama can PS people's consciousness in a way that news articles struggle to do so it's good to have both and Tim was about the pressure.

That's been put on recently by journalist and the changes have been made as a result is that the real reason actually why the post office cannot is now centrestage because political journalist.

I have finally decided.

It's the story no don't give him any credit this is on ITV drama the got 9 million people watching and the million people signing the petition not let me finish the BBC hear that you put it out in prime time at a dead period of the year and 9 million people watched it now.

You can't take that away for all of us girl is a very thrilled we put this pressure on the reason the MPs have suddenly decide that way we can bring it in tomorrow morning exonerating everybody want you do it the other enquiries do we have this in the blood?

Could we have this in Windrush the reason they all caved in and the Tory government in particular is desperately trying to avoid the blame for this is saying I'm don't blame us.

They scared.

I certainly what I say.

It was the drama what I'm saying is the drama has caused political jealous to finally noticed the story the drama is about Ordinary People reacting and if you take the the drama which is Ordinary People fall.

Please only people watch this and they're putting the pressure on the government now and that's just incredibly exciting to see and would you like the lobby would keep it will keep it alive from now to credit them about you because he wants to say let's play Mayday by let's play in the Lib Dems who's been in power in the last 12 years since this broke.

I think it's the Conservatives who was in charge of the post office after a Davy anyone else to blame who was the prime minister when?

Got the Sea by I think it was David Cameron and is he still in the government? Would you know I think he is Tim I want to bring you back in because you know it's not sorted on that note in terms of figures that he becomes a story and then people the journalist look for people to vilify if you like in the papers this morning our doorstep photos of the it engineers at Fujitsu software.

There's a handful Paula vennells the former post office CEO everyone involved in it over the last two decades is now in the frame.

I wonder what you make of how the stories on folding for me to build a rope eit system that didn't work but no VAT systems exist throughout all factors of life post office has one shareholder which is a government and they've been well aware as soon as far back as I know at least a 2012 of what the hell the post office of behaving what the post office new about malicious.

I'm a new as far back as them they're prosecutions and safe and then they allowed the post office to go nuclear basically in in the beached.

I'll spend over 100 million of taxpayers money fighting us when they should have brought them to task of them and it is only the public pressure now.

It's come on then.

That's force them into doing something where would you like journalist to go now the story to keep it in the in the public eye and West private I go next on this story.

We keep going there was a piece of the last issue that being more pieces in this issue, and and you know I take that question who's to blame? Why were we got to carry on asking that victims do find it off and so hard to harness the media.

I think what we will just just

About the difficulty of actually going to the media and saying this has happened to me.

I've been accused of theft quite often people affected.

Don't want anyone to know the full details of the awful.

They've been accused of that was certainly the case with Windrush that begin with people that's a shame.

Just having been wrongly classified as being illegal immigrants that a lot of them were quite to come forward initially until they began to see the power of reporting and the power of having their stories told and see decisions being turned over but yeah, I think another problem that we've seen over the last 4 years is the decline of local Media so it can be quite hard even if you really want somebody to take your story seriously to get the attention about the expense of investigative journalism.

He had the crowdfund at times his own journalism figure the sake.

To do nothing I mean not to do nothing but produce nothing in a given cycle.

So you mean Richard Brooks brilliant cover this time.

He's been writing this to 12-years news on salary and you know you have to put in that sort of investment to get how many hours in Britain can do that.

We can I think some national and some other institutions could do as well and Rebecca let me bring you in towards the end as well.

It's somebody I believe you've left unless and you left of a while later because of partly because of your disillusionment more widely this about this story as well.

What do you think the lessons are to learn for the Media moving forward on this? I went back to journalism.

I don't know I think maybe it will be.

If there is a bit more of that space for the people like Media Richard Brooks to get the bit between a teeth and stick with the story that feel really important even though they're not necessarily getting high Numbers especially in the early days.

I think the most for that.

There is the better things that feel important brilliant brilliant work.

It's funny.

That's really challenging.

Yeah.

I think the key thing is just to keep going one of the real parallels between Windrush and the post office is that there was the full stop when the Home Office apologise when a minister resigned when the post Office said that they've made mistakes that almost seem like it could be the end of it, but actually the story of the difficulty getting compensation has been a second scandal in both of these cases and Report is just have to keep on going following those developments really really scrupulously up to Windrush

Well, it's it's a not a brilliant story the government paid out 70 million to about on about 2000 claims which is much less than expected.

It's been very very slow 44 people have died in the period between claiming and before getting any compensation and a lot of people are upset about the very competitive nature of the station which is actually run by the Home Office for same department that made mistakes in the first place, so it does require scrutiny and him anymore Media engagements for you this afternoon this evening.

How are you free now? I've got a long drive back to Pembrokeshire now, but I think there's plenty lined up for tomorrow as well and they are and it's fantastic.

They are and keep keep talking keep saying your sorry.

Thank you so much to you all for coming on the media.

It's brilliant to hear from you Tim brentnall former sub postmaster in Hislop editor of Private Eye Rebecca Thompson formerly of computer weekly Amelia gentleman from the garden and neck was.

And thank you so much for listening to buy will you please welcome the 2023 BBC Reith Lecture professor answer anybody expect to be asked to do the Reef lectures so it's an enormous honour but it's an enormous responsibility in this year's BBC Radio 4 Reith lectures and explorers and what we must do to protect it from past Generations and it's an obligation of hours to secure for future generations.

It's up to us to reflect on BBC sounds.