Read this: How air fryers cooked up a media feast

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Hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 now.

It's time for a detailed conversation about air fryers.

Not use them that's for another show no instead.

We would understand how air fryers have become a media phenomenon because the books the programme the videos they keep coming will look at what happens when?

Content on one subject goes through the roof plus we're going to talk about advertising because this week Channel 4 was announced plans to cut 240 jobs.

Its paws dog cancel the number of shows and it's pointed to a downturn in advertising revenue to explain why but is this a downturn that will pass or are we seeing a fundamental shift in the kind of Media businesses that advertising can or can't support that start with Chris Curtis editor of the TV and radio news site broadcasters here with me in the media show studio hire Chris what do you take from the channel announcement well as you said Channel 4 Spondon to watch it cause a market shop in advertising condition, so the market yard market collapsed last year it collapsed in a way that when predicting and that was a huge issue for the ad funded broadcast as ITV channel 4 Channel 5 all really suffered and so Channel 4 needs to respond to that its revenues a massive.

And it's also going to a digital transformation, so these two things are happening at the same time and the result of that is that they've now announced a transformation plan they changing the makeup of their workforce their cutting significant number of job so much 20% almost 1-in 5 so making significant cuts and they're doing that from a position of pressure.

My pressure plan is to become a genuinely digital first public service streamer by 2030, but where's the evidence that it can replace what it had from Lydia tailor advertising with a digital equivalent where there are many examples around the world Channel 4 will be at the forefront of this what I would say is that the value of a viewer on for streaming platform is the same to that brought to the broadcast as a as a view of linear television so they managed to sort of clothes that gap and

You still a belief that there's a huge appetite for long-form high-quality content and the advertising a perfectly good model for sustain them in the Stream was getting into advertising Netflix Amazon in big way getting in do they believe it's the meaning for revenue stream, but Channel 4 needs to adapt it needs to adapt quickly, but there's lots of evidence is there that the kind of people who would watch linear television and not the same as he would consume lots of stream programmes on Channel 4 publicly owned it has a reputation for taking creative risks.

How does all of that fit with its desire to be a successful because some of the most popular stream programs in the world would not necessarily fit within what we think of as being a Channel 4 programme correct but you can also I mean it shows a hit show whether it's on telly on streaming channel 4 agnostic really about this telephone needs more hits.

It needs bigger audiences.

It's succeeding more in the connacht reputational programming side.

At the moment perhaps than the sort of mainstream big populist shows but I don't think there's any debate that people want long form content and if they want long form video content they need to pay to subscribe for it.

All.

They need to accept.

They're going to watch watch and I don't think everyone thinks that advertising is going to disappear as a phenomenon to give me more detail on that because you seem to be discreet channel is doing very well at high impact sometimes one of programming but perhaps hasn't got the the return brand the generate huge numbers what kind of programs have you got in mind when Channel 4 drama turns to be short runs three or four parts and they had successful dramas this year couple in 2023 rather couple next door and light in the whole but short round they're not not constant returners and the newer titles are few and far between at the top of the most watched the key shows in terms of revenues per Channel 4 still things like.

10 years old and Bake Off which obviously had a longer on the BBC before was brought over some years ago to Channel 4 so there's definitely an issue around more or less in the populist space but grab you hit so hard to come by that I definitely true you're going to be staying with this Chris thanks for being here and we invite to Channel 4 to take part today, but they find on Monday Channel 4 see you said a new strategy will accelerated digital transformation so Channel 4 remains a trusted disruptive and distinctive brand into the 2030s offering brilliant shows the people love and that matter so has been describing advertising is Central Trust understanding.

What is happening here? That's also bringing Josh project group and CO4 Europe Middle East and Africa Josh great to have you on the media.

So thanks for your help on this before we go any further.

Can you give us a beginner's guide to the the structure that lies beneath the

Ship between Media outlets like Channel 4 and the advertising industry, so you have a brown to obviously advertised on in various different midi channels for the TV Channel 4 or Google better or out of home advertising area radio and then you have media buying agencies like group M who managed we work with brands to discuss with them to their target audiences what the market opportunity.

Is then we strategically plan their campaigns for them, then we buy the advertising space Media violence on their behalf that we track and optimise how successful they can't those campaigns are delivering whatever it is that Graham wants to do with sell things or raise awareness or consideration and then it's been sewn organisation like yours group M6 right at the heart of these relationships and look at 1 statistic which shows TVs

Sizing in comes down 12 and a half percent over the last year and some of that will be to do with decisions that media bias such as yours take.

Why do you think that figure is come down so much last year there was driven by macroeconomics.

You know we've got the war in Ukraine have been going on with the suffix going in the Middle East cutting their spend quite significantly and then we had the cost of living crisis in the UK where when consumers are being hit by that and this is being hit by that it's understandable The Browns will be a little bit more about their spend.

So it was a very tough Year last year's is it has been said that said we see him some clothes like this all the time in the media industry 2020 was the worst year in terms of ad spend since 2009 and in 2021 was was was the biggest advertising so so that happened that's interesting then, so you would describe it isn't.

Clothes are you would say this is an air brother and some sort of structural reset which puts question marks against the business models of Media operations night Channel 4.

I think that's a combination go to the album flower element is we will see about that this year to some extent in broadcast TV the fundamentals of broadcast TV advertising are still very strong so and I think they will see very will see big increases double-digit growth in terms of online viewership digital broadcast video on demand, but I think that's the structural element is not something that I think is a concern.

I think the reality is the announcement channel for the headlines are always the headcount the cuts always take the head that the headlines but actually what Alex men was talking about was in 2020 Channel 4 launch their digital transformation strategy and she was launching this.

5-day fast forward to accelerate Channel 4 schedule first transformation that is good business practise all the media Rider transform me not Justin broadcasting Google have recently announced cut Spotify all businesses or business's constantly restructure their businesses and future-proof themselves, can I think Channel 4 is very good example that as well, so there is a structural thing there, but do I think that's that's for the week now.

I don't want to look at this issue from a number of different directions with the analysis of Chris Cooke from broadcast for a media buyers perspective with Josh from Groupon let's look at this creative perspective as well.

Lily James is here at creative at the advertising agency lucky generals.

Thanks for joining us Lily when people at a strategic level are talking about shifting from linear cost to digital what impact does that have on the creative calculations that are being made within advertising I think for a long time.

It's considered the gold standard to have a 60-second ad

I think they created that was what you could have hoped for when have you got breaching the campaign but now I think you've got to think about making something that can work in 10 second chance can work in 15 second chunks.

You're not able to do such a long form piece of storytelling if you can call 60 seconds long form and I think it's result you actually seeing a return to lots of quite old school trips.

Things like jingles things like Brown characters where you can really hit a message even if the person is going to skip it after 5 Seconds of watching and that happens convert type of advertising generate the kind of top Dollar income from brands that the class except peas TV ad can broadcast because viewers viewers broadcast video doesn't mean they're not using tbe in a similar way to have a word.

They're still watching the TV set so you do see that kind of those those kinds of the other formats as well the reality.

TV linear order one and the same you know the TV and Performance viewed and still delivering rich audience is TVs where you find the best content is created the most about moments the post office scandal for example.

You know that's a really good really matter whether there's 11 million viewers watched it on linear or on digital.

It was still the same experience from the advertising the same as well, but I'm also trying to understand though is we get more adverts of the nature that you're describing Lily does the experience of both consuming the advert and the content that come alongside it change because for example possible to think of some news websites for example huge amounts of adverts all over them their owners would say this is necessary to pay for the journalism that you're reading but some users would say this isn't making for a great experience either consuming the ad or the content if you're talking about campaigns that you've spent months.

Years of your life on trying to make the most beautiful as insightful as possible and then someone encounters them instead of a 6 mm by 6 mm Square in the most annoying context possible.

I don't think that's an ideal situation for a creative let alone the person who's doing it presumably you accept the challenge to some degree because if that's the platform that's being offered that the platform supply adverts for absolutely so then I think it's about thinking about really clever spend so that everything a person isn't if the thing that person is doing isn't the most beautiful piece of content campaign thinking about.

How can we make this the most targeted and the most useful even if it is something that someone didn't plan and saying that day.

I'm sure when your going through the process.

You need to deal with lots of different levels of budgets anyway, but we've been looking at the downturn and advertising from the perspective of Channel 4 but for the prospective with agencies who are creating yes, are you having to work with less at the moment?

Is working with last I think it's working differently.

I mean you look at something like the Barbie movie and no one could just excuse that work with less.

It's you know a ginormous advert from the tell.

I think it's about whining what is considered to be advertising like the Nike run club for example no idea how long has been out maybe 5 years? It's still in the top 30 apps on the app store and that is advertising.

It's just it's existing and emotion when form than a TV ad or billboard news websites carrying lots of adverts Jim Mullen reach for Jones the mirror and we were talking about cuts made at a recent edition of the media show says some people struggle particularly on the website, but if we do not put those as in and do not get additional revenue in then those cuts would have to be deep burn is that and Chris from broadcast about reaches away from use which is the if we all want the best content if we all want the content that we want in the form you want it when we want it that advertising me take.

Forms and we may need to get used to that maybe maybe not look I think we've just come out of period where television creatively has been a strong as it's been amazing shows and the consumer appetite for conventional hours half hours 45 minutes of brilliant telly has never been higher there is there is definitely a challenge around funding that through advertising and the and the end some clothes that kind of come with it.

I don't think that's going to a consumer demand that you can set that demand the business models are a bit challenge and with potentially moving towards hybrid organisations having some subscription Revenue and some advertising revenue The Foundations that consumer demand a really solid and that's one type of evolution Josh I just wonder you as you explain the earlier group and is partly about media buying but partly about strategy in terms of helping brands.

What kind of adverts to place? How do you compare the advice you give now in terms of this is where we think it's worth spending money with the advice.

You might have given 10 years ago.

How are things changing? Well? I think there's something that remain absolutely through so context is actually really important.

So I think when you were talking about media channels where you're being bombarded advertising that's not something we recommend that the brands.

Where's spending money cos it's not a great experience for the user.

I think the world's changed is the access we have to data now is just is the we've got some my such deeper insight into how the user behaviour and how consumers behaving we also through connected TV such as the digital channels that read the channel for investing in means that we can be much more bespoken specific in the in the messaging will be sent to people so that creates all sorts of opportunities for better message you better optimisation more effective campaigns but still.

A high impact fashion so you like it's interesting when you look at the going back to the Channel for about 30% of its revenues now in digital so it's invest in a place where you Chris make the point earlier about the value of digital vs.

India is the same as investing in the area, where people spending more time, but is there a core problem which is the new alluded to this earlier Josh which is when you have huge sections of advertising spend going to big tech Google and Google and Facebook metaphor example pulled in 50% of all revenue in the US in one recent year now that makes it very hard for other media businesses to make money will I would argue that she wants always been very attractive to advertisers without those big tech companies is the ability to target you know really closely and that's what the digital that's what the broadcaster investing into the

Now so I think this is this is a Smart Move for broadcast and I think you're stuck and they're going to start as we can start seeing huge swings of revenue coming away from the Tech companies, but definitely going to be able to compete by being a by investing in these areas for the moment.

Thank you very much indeed.

We are as I said earlier can talk about their flight fryers in just a moment and Lily is your here wonder that mean to put you on the spot if you were trying to position air fryers to prospective customers when you see a product that is doing so extraordinary well all the MOT talk about how in a moment where does advertising fit into that when you already have a product the has a profile that people are keen on at the moment something that you they did last year that it was really fun was there produced and air fryer restaurant so everything everything look like they're fire so I think probably it's about if you are really are.

Eating this moment why you're about to hit culturally entrenching yourself.

Maybe we could do with air fryer come dine with me as a one-off episode.

Thank you very much indeed for the moment and well.

Let's talk about their fries because you haven't had the pleasure let me quickly explain it's a kitchen appliance The Kooks by circulating hot air around the food.

I'm sure most of you know that already and not only air fryers incredibly popular is Lily was alluding to there so I air fryer books air fryer programs videos podcasts and more they are a media phenomenon Philip stone is media manager at Nielsen IQ which provides insight into the behaviour and thanks for coming on the media.

So just give us a feel for how large this surge of interest in Airfryer content is ok, so last week's top 10 best selling cookbooks in the UK what air fryer cookbooks and 4 of those led by how to make anything in an air fryer 4000 puppies.

a total of £25 and on a cookbook in UK last on an air fryer cookbook while last year overall sales in the UK totals off £1000000 pictures of 10 million pounds on 20-22 so that's the kind of levels and just put that in Context with those figures be reasonably unusual for books on one particular subject from my memory the last time we saw a trend quite as big as this was probably back in 2011 The Great British Bake Off inspired baking book boom past 12-months Bake Off was that boom what's behind this one well one of the best-selling cookbook overall in the UK was Nathan Anthony's bored of

Healthy healthy air fryer cookbook for 415000 ft by the likes of your traditional TV chef like Mary Berry I didn't ask you to try next guess, but you've done it absolutely perfect because Celia palazzos where this is commissioning editor at Ebury press which Nathan Anthony's bored of lunch the healthy air fried Celia first war congratulations on the books success and before we talk about it.

Let's hear a little bit of Nathan Anthony at this is one of his tiktok switch has been watched an awful.

Lot of times one thing.

I never get bored of is found in randomer gradients to southern fried chicken breast and cook in the air fryer for 70 minutes.

These are fill with mozzarella pesto and pepperoni dance bring up the keys and seasoning a little bit of it you can find a video on tiktok where to see you.

Do you realise something was going on with air fryers and you needed to commission a book or two about them.

They arrive at seems to have self-published not photographed air fryer cookbooks in the Amazon charts and we can if I think publishing collectively realised we need to be on next luckily we actually are the commission to know if I break from Nathan we're quiet here quite a to deal with him one for a slow cooker Pokémon for an air fryer book so we actually already had one in the work that we just moved it earlier in the year so to customise on on the huge appetite.

We could see I'm interested.

Do you end and your colleagues actively monitor consumer habits to see what trains not just a book buying bit of things that people are generally interested in Absolutely yeah.

Yeah trend forecasting and insights really really B

Witches lifestyle and cookery with constantly listening to people on social media and and sort of following what the general interest friends are and try my possible and you definitely talking to Josh from Groupon about macro strategies for big brands trying to have impact with advertising campaigns, but when you're thinking about landing and in the book.

I wonder what matters most now.

Is it TV is it podcast is it social is it ticked on what matters the books that are performing the best at the moment pretty much all from people who got big social media platforms within that direct-to-consumer communication.

Just the biggest driver in book sales at the moment.

I'm fine by you surprised that when all of these videos are available from some of the people writing the books that people will still buy the books in huge volume, even though the videos are there on their phone on their computer.

Yes, absolutely yeah, it's something that I won't expect every year but sales for our cooks will start to tell after cos they're there is a lot of free content online not least the BBC good food website another website are available, but yeah, it was supposed to be just the market is an interesting and how is your 10 years or so ago best sellers on the likes of online social media Instagram YouTube or food bloggers and well.

That's playing out Celia take us inside the discussions within publishing so you have one book out that's doing really well.

You can see other publishers have got other air fryer books out that are doing really well.

It's getting more and more pop what point how do you gauge when there are enough air fryer books where the market is saturated and it's not worth you commissioning more.

It's an interesting question as he say there's always a saturation point with any trends and I think just the Lodge of the trend you the more books it kind of allowed to be published into that space.

I think this has been really interesting with air fryer think with other plans previously you know you could have to be first or second to market and anything other than that you know you're just you're Chasing Cars smaller sales numbers that towards the end of last year, but mentioned Hayley Deans how to make an air fryer which was published at the end of December so absolutely brilliant seems that we're not there yet, but this one it's just not going down.

I'm not afraid I ever imagined using on the media show fill it but have we reached peak air fryer content no, I don't think so, I think it's got legs announced his his newest publishing.

Just this weekend and in in 24-hours.

We had about 7000 pre-order so is suggested that the up and it's ok.

Just before I let you both go if this is the current friend the current thing that sitting right at the top of the the book sales charts and it's not just books I should say there's plenty of TV programmes and and audio as well about air fryers.

Can you see something else that would be something you share with us, but there's try luxury that last numbers have sex a lot of the best cookbooks on about air fryer recipes quick to cook a simple to cook so yeah given given in Crisis I think that colour trend for quick and easy cooking will carry on this year and next see you there anything you want to ask what's coming out.

I mean by s w w Phillips did you know the air fryer thing has been driven by the main healthier quicker and cheaper and and there's three things are really driving at the moment to still Uppermost in most people's mind.

Ok.

Thanks the both of you.

Could have you on the media listening to all of that was Josh from group and I don't know how many air fryer discussions you have the air fryer discussions you have in the group head office, but if you were approached by a big manufacturers said we want to place this air fryer and get it to the top of the market.

What do you think would be the most important mediums for those adverts? I mean I think the breach depends on about how competitive is how many different brands there? Are you competing with what sort of market share of trying to steal but I think they talked about influencer marketing.

Clearly has a really important role to play the have a huge impact there so I think social search have their roles and it's about the right breathe but again broadcasters.

Have a key role to play as well and that high-quality content and so that would have

What TV does that no other medium does really is the ability to drive cost-effective reach at scale very quickly and drive awareness consideration purchase very quickly so that still is I would say unique in that channel and Lily from lucky generals.

I guess as you're trying to reach particularly younger consumers who advertises would like to the products in front of social and video becomes ever more important alongside the more traditional outlets that amazing second career almost it's close on tiktok shows that even people who evangelical about traditional food are having to accept new ways of reaching different younger cook in 20 seconds.

We started talking about Channel 4 let's finish with channel 4 Big announcement this week.

We will hear from them again or that's the main reset for 2024 that something that I mean it.

Call a painful process for Channel 4 Staff consultations a redundancy process is just kicking off now 45 days time lot of people 200 people leaving their organisations and pain to come in the short-term, but this is about trying to change a legacy business into her future facing whether they can do that.

I should mention the Radio 4 programme very successful the series has its own edition on air fryers which was it's most popular edition.

I'm told now.

Thanks for Joshua group and Lily James and lucky generals Chris Curtis from broadcast Celia Palazzo from Ebury press and Stone from Nielsen IQ you can get this edition all auditions in fact of the media show on BBC sounds but for now it's bye-bye for me 30 years ago Britain's farms with brain disorder.

Weird time in our history we started calling me the mad car professor and the thing is after all this time nobody knows for sure where mad cow disease originally came from we will never know the answer subscribe to the BBC sounds.