Read this: Russia and Ukraine: reporting the war two years on

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It's 2 years since Russia's full scale in Ukraine today.

We're asking what was the conflict told us about the media and how it report a huge story with joint from Moscow by Diana magnay.

Sky News international correspondent from

Play Romeo kratzke managing editor of the English language new voice of Ukraine the BBC chief international correspondent lyse doucet is also there and with us Sam Green professor in Russian at King's College London but I want to start with your Katerina Glickman deputy editor of novaya.

Gazeta, Europe the Russian newspaper the regime forced out of the country is now based in Riga in Latvia of the blanket coverage at the start of the wall the conflicts place at the top of the news bulletins is off and waned but the death of the Russian opposition leader Alexei navalny put President Putin back on the front pages cats welcome to the meteor shower.

I think your paper was the first to report some of the details of Nirvana his death.

What did your sources tell you thank you we have published articles the source of one was an inmate from the colony and the source of the other was a local paramedic.

And from the very beginning we started to communicate with no sources found out that officials be online for example.

They claim that happened on 16th February at 2:17 p.m.

Local time but the inmates told us that unusual things that happened in the Colony the previous day up and move between Direct and the prison authorities Titan security and prisoners Ford cars drive onto the prison dance late at night.

So they think that he died a lot earlier than stated officially probably at night and it wrong.

Turn a.m.

On Friday or all inmates already knew that it was really before but it was an honest officially what about them she is body shop signs of bruising bruising the did not appear to have been from Britain to have still been alive for bruising to appear on this permit.

He's a very experience to produce.

So he said that to such injuries on appear to be from convulsions and someone tries to hold him down, but the conversion software.

Bruises on the body this way and also there was a bruise on his chest the kind that comes from a red card Jack massage, so it looks like the did try to resuscitate him and he probably died of cardiac arrest, nobody saying anything about why he had a cardiac arrest and can I also really basic question which is no we know that he was in this as you said you know the penal colony in the arctic and you were speaking to people in zone 1 inside there and paramedic.

How dangerous was it for them to speak to you and how did you go about if you can say anyway? How are sources B to speak to an advisor to Russia now?

It's extremely dangerous and risky the European and we also claimed as a government as a criminal organisation the undesirable organisation so any collaboration is illegal and the B corporation I mean not talking to us, but also be posting our articles and not to say to write for us.

That's really can be prosecuted under criminal law people can get 2 years in prison for this and I can explain it by you you know growing sense of injustice 2 busy in the people and also frustration and

Anger and also I'm not able to express.

Anyhow there is everything is suppressed in Russia dangerous, if you want to bring flowers and to show how are you bringing of course people have no chance to express themselves and they collaborate this we secretly and Ronnie O'Keefe from the new voice of Ukraine and we're going to talk later about Ukrainian reporting of the war but I'm interested in how the valley and his death were viewed and Ukraine been reported in a very unique reaction Nepali is not in a special you respected person in Ukraine I he's passed views that he's Express still not been in Ukraine favour and ukrainians generally don't especially the Russian opposition with any amount of favour problems.

Why is that in the Ukraine perspective recently haven't been effective and promoted the Russian imperial is nearly said that while the Russian opposition.

Obviously the only was there reading light try to show themselves for Ukraine in terms of Russia Ukraine they didn't see any difference between the following statements including or rather the difference was really immature and his attitude towards Ukraine in the things that he said the way he's expressed especially things he hasn't said really make it clear that for a a an alarm light VR to show you part of who the what country the app.

It really just seems like only and Russian opposition think it's still should be rushing then imperialist kind of mine.

That is still present and something can I bring you in from King's College London Westfield Avenue different from that.

You know he is portrayed as a leader and he was portrayed as a leader in waiting was he perceived in Russia in the same way as his discussed internationally you ask.

I mean I think I never had the opportunity to try to build the kind of constituency that you know could have brought him and he kind of genuine success in the post as he came was America elections in in Moscow in 2013 when you got something in the range of 25 27% Obviously not a funny film about a constituency and there is probably more clearly since his death than before it right.

We've seen a real galvanising on long.

Russian opposition different leadership in different candidates within within the opposition have taken this very very very very personal I ask you about his Media operation.

How did he get his message out in Russia but to work without I want to be fair that you walk in the valley is the name of the umbrella in in the morning team that he actually quite successful was to create a system in which new white new people who voices could I could come up as media operation was part of that but it was also something that he had to do it was increasingly difficult for him to get the word out through certainly mainstream Media which would not talk about him and and even independent Media were effectively suppressed over the years in in Russia and said that he found it.

Siri I think too hard to build his own outrage operation Youtube channels telegram channels other social media operations that have been quite effective in building significant audiences.

I'm not sure that you want to be careful about the distinction between advocacy and and journalism.

It was a protocooperation and connection rather than a journalistic operation, but unfortunately has pushed most of the Independent Media in Russia in the last 506 years that can you can you hear me? Are you sorry? Just wondered your response on on the van is media operation using telegram YouTube

Hit this is the only sources offer only on YouTube what else to do and also I think we should political with CV22 kind of investigative journalism activity not also because of his choice, but it was only left.

What was left to do if you cannot legally elected or participate in any political life ok? That's the thing about 4.

Love you.

Thank you so much, but I wanted to turn of course because because it is 2 years since the start of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine February 24th is the anniversary and I want to look at how the conference is being ported.

Let's start with the respective of Rome to give him the voice of Ukraine in Ukrainian journalist, how restricted are Ukrainian journalists, how curtails are you in terms of what you can report?

Not really adult and there is there was a real world that I've had made about the military restricting access to certain that mine but the way I see it is quite frankly Battlefield there's no place for a civil even drugs and journalist that are allowed into those territories.

Need highly experienced people who know they're getting into and not simply people who are risk-takers or have a break spirit that doesn't save you from artillery shop so a lot of the kind of complaints that we have it especially the war from international journal coming to bring all the motorway that he won't let hear your Barney's people are parachutes.

They came in looking to grab some sensational headline green and that's the battle.

There's much as it is for the compelling narrative to continue the international aid as is every single channel is whether there Ukraine on the fact is Russia's been conducting an information were against the very concept of Truth against the very concept of journalism since at least 1014.

If not at the Union to that then it's been nice and Cherie of this constant Assault on the concept that you can report object of early and I am a present your petition to all participants because quite frankly if there is Russian propaganda successful.

If Chinese

Until the terriers have win this Mary fight that were in this information work, then we don't exist there will be no concept of truth will be no concept independent reporting of journalism, so there's not a lot of options for us as journalist.

We either stick to this two organs or we give up and say well everything's everything about you report for the BBC and Sky News but I just wondered what your ears on how the conflict in your country has been reported by the international media and the people you said arrived at the Beginning you that didn't have the right credentials.

What do you need more broadly IRA to the full-scale Invasion a lot of reporting was based out of Moscow a lot of the first one and see who reported on things between 2014.

And 2022 were trained or had gone through their kind of 4 mg experience in Russia and as a result when be respectable and ethical journalist their views were kind of informed by the environment of the Rain by the friendships that they cultivated and was not a lot of that in UK after the war started people started to relocate to Kiev but after about a year so we really so how attention Sara dropping off people kind of decamped for of the next big thing and Ukraine fill out of the headlights and well.

We've we've seen what effect that has really hurt by when she mean lack of aid lack of weapons was completely down to a lack of.

And that lack of shows was because Ukraine doesn't have by political support needs in order to persuade Western governments to to send us this very necessary to the media is k Diana magnay.

Moscow inky what's it been like for you Diana first you know what's your strategy when it comes to reporting this wall.

It's very difficult and we have gone through as a journey in terms of how we report it what we do because fake news nosey knows about discrediting me on forces came in as soon after the beginning of the war so you know the international journalist that were yeah, we will look like you know you you start to test boundaries and see whether it's going to be ok, but the shops.

You know I think people got loaded for false sense of security started returning to report from Russia and then Evan Burscough beach with locked up is the first international report to be gales just had his detention without trial extended so have been in prison now and the rest and start working for foreign outlets left and there really aren't very many of us left and I'm not living here permanently now, so it's what we can report now is most it's not and an incredible reporting that you're still getting from Russian outlets.

BBC big here, I think it's highlights important and as I said, what do you think about the Battlefield is no place for a journalist Romeo and all the other terrific brave courageous are Ukrainian journalist who made all the prince in the reporting on this war the insights into this War I don't get you know who's reported here has worked closely with Ukrainian colleagues.

Family tribe has many different tribes if you like and I'm not going to sit here and defend every single journalist every single Media came to Ukraine yes, some of the repair shooting coming to the next morning Mood on to the next one to be in the position of having to defend the BBC but many of my colleagues to work you came back or here in 2014 when really for ukrainians.

I started coming back since and we were using Ukrainian colleagues.

I spend a lot of time bomb shelters right next to my Ukrainian reporting this war so I think we all do our best and the BBC and I can Skype correspondence and in here in and out New York Times has never left.

I feel your pain.

You know you don't like when everyone brushes in and then Rushes out to be underlined is that the original stinky we talked about reporting from Moscow as ever Ukrainian play? This is not just ukraine's word is mostly Ukraine which suffers most of all, but this is a war which goes fair and white so that the date lines are also Washington where there is headlines almost everyday in major American media.

It's in London it's in Berlin it is a global story and so different journalist are covering it from different places and I think it's still not right now.

Speak most carry on with the BBC but every day when I turn on the BBC I'm thinking as a data which is going to be headline, or is it going to be Ukraine so there's a war which matters so it's not going to leave her headlines.

It's not going to leave the in boxes of world leaders for a long time to come Romeo and I know that may not be good enough, but we are trying to do a better and Sam Green you lived in Russia for many years you're also are non journalist on the program today has Western reporting got Russia and put in wrong way round.

Do you think what's your attitude to that before I was in academic.

Does some Solace in blaming that I suppose look on.

I think there is another has been a tendency on in Westerham median genuine.

I want to single out anybody.

Probably worse tendency in in the US and what about the places to fear that readers you was listeners, may not have a lot of patience for new ones and I'm in I'm in international news on to what do keep attention to international news by giving people I'm easy black and white stories and some stories or what's going on in Ukraine is not possible question but the we went period of coverage of Russia that it was a wedding to this idea that yes baby.

I'm still on the road, but his head is fundamentally in the right direction and has no choice but to become like us and so when people like catcher or people like in about an hour or others were telling us we should pay attention to things are going on and that the could have affected go for a beyond washer that this is a resume that could be brilliant and then.

Propose a security threat to to your born by the neighbour on it was a story for which I think it was not as much space in the washroom media and design it is a bit and so we found herself surprise as a community of listeners and viewers is a policy community even though I think a lot of people who would you bring the work on the ground on elsewhere you had been trying to tell us the story for a long time and dynamic from Sky that she hasn't been a tendency to frame this conflict simply as a fight between Good and Evil is it that too simplistic? Do you think that is the way it has been trained? I think that following on from what Sam said you know I think people have had a lot of preconceived ideas about Russia and it's kind of easy in the west to frame editorials to hear people speaking in Parliament in this sort of Grande stand by

It's never going to be able to get the weapons.

That's never going to beat you know the people will rise up for the offensive will will work a lot of Wishful Thinking in the west.

I don't think that's the few reported here were still here have engaged in Acts but I do think a lot of Western descriptions of what has followed those lines and I think in terms of the discussion of Good and Evil it's difficult because one area which is not really covered at all by Western is what's happening on the Russian front line because you know we be going in there illegally because I'm doing international law and order the other side of this complex and and partly because it's the kind of wrong side but but in a war.

People on the front lines you are rational and we do Focus a lot in Russia on the leadership the problems there in and I think the sort of human the human stories of what's going on at the front lines is terrible for Russians as it is for Ukraine even though you know the Russians should never catch a reaction to that to prove fully understand this evening for us for so also not possible to report from war zone.

It's not possible anymore to go back to the way to the prison, so yeah, I support and also my opinion.

Kind of failed because the reporting 20-years about coaching and his real character and that he never played by the rules and he that have never been any lines he that she wouldn't cross and it's not know no she's not notice board not his name so not his political screen or the but also in 2003.

I lost my boss of investigative department and he was poisoned.

It was so long time ago and it was always like this.

I always have a feeling that we create we tried to reach out not on the Russians but also the boat and to begin never really got through.

Two people not inside the country not outside and that no received the reaction that people are surprised by Norther like all he can do that of course as you say the list of journalists as well as me know politicians and all sorts of others you know that long list of people who died just as we coming towards the end.

I didn't have Putin uses the Western media to get his own message across and how that Compares I'm in Leeds I bought you in here now if you think about it feature of the last two years of coverage of the war have been the regular interviews that zelensky presently crane is done with international outlets is clearly different strategies to Putin's.

Yes, I was just reading report Washington Post which documents Russian internal documents and they were expressing frustration that zelensky was like according to the document like the global Star like Brad Pitt that everyone was talking about.

Anything that Russia tried to do the described him.

I just wasn't working unfortunately.

This is what Sam said is that we had the darkest of times for Ukraine is unbelievable full-scale invasion in the darkest of times the Ukrainian stood up as a nation and said we're going to fight in were going to win and when president zelensky didn't leave the country is many expected it became the light in the dark of this war and I think any of us that we like to look for the lights in in the dark and that's the story that really carry truant.

They was Andrew said it was a kind of Wishful Thinking in the thinking is that ukrainians were fighting back and that became one of the principal stories that still carries on to the same you not coming back now Ukrainian enormous losses and exhaustion.

Would still saying we have to we have to keep fighting this is an existential well-being is our hearts are going with this and get does binary a good vs.

Evil so the fight is going to be top for reporting on this fight is going to be much tougher to I would love to have time to ring me back in if that's all of you back.

I am afraid we are have run out of time now.

I'd like to thank you all so much for coming on the programme Qatar Glickman from the via gazeta Europe Diana magnay.

Sky News Romeo kratzke the new voice of Ukraine BBC lyse doucet and Sam Green from King's College London and thank you all for listening to the media show until next week to buy hi, I'm the respondent.

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