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Hello, this is a show from BBC Radio 4 the course we have to talk about that edited photo of the Princess of Wales and her children the story is raise many questions about how images in the media source.

How the distributed will get into all of that the festival there to developing stories, I want to turn to in the US the House of Representatives passed a bill that could see tiktok banned will assess, how likely that is to actually happened first lower major development in the Saga of who made by the Daily Telegraph Christopher Williams The Telegraph business editor is with us in the media show studio just over an hour ago.

You posted a story tell us.

What was in it, so this afternoon the government has told the House of Lords that it's going to change the law to effect of the outlaw foreign state ownership of British news organisations.

This is an effective death blow to the red bird.

I am I bid for the Telegraph as it stands will have to wait and see what happens next but it's a very confident is the results of massive pressure on the government and Mrs them basically building to that and red bird.

I am I was backed by the United Arab Emirates and that was the part of the Beard that was getting the most attention.

Yes.

Am I the fun at 75% funded by effectively the government of the UAE and that's a Rubicon the crossbar.

Just have a foreign state only a UK news organisation and the point is a foreign state as opposed to all foreigners because of course already there are major institutions in our Media owned by foreign companies offering individuals yeah that be one of the Turning Point to this debate has been quite hard to draw outfit the philosophical and legal difference between a forest and a foreign person and in this case it's very much and foreign state.

Is it the end of the matter as far as this bed is concerned about his lord me written up so we haven't seen the text them yet, but we do know they're going to sort out loud control and Influence but there will be a threshold below which they you don't say that got control influence and a matter for the competition markets authority to decide so it's possible that time I could find a new partner dilute the way down to a level that they can have another go the alternative for them.

Is that they found?

Buy for the whole thing and we go again so the saga continues from here and if we go again give us who's on your list the names already out there that we know about interest from the end of daily mail from support Marshall hedge fund manager who backs GB news from even use corporal obviously the times and the sun and there are other names out there that you know we'll probably don't know about so it could be anyone there people listening thinking will hold on the Daily Mail is already hugely influential.

Would it be appropriate for the same organisation to own both the male and the Telegraph and they have the same about if the Murdoch's got involved in the sign of the times.

Would it be appropriate for them to own and then that's it.

That's the really good question that they'll be asking themselves as well as I will would there bed get to regulation because there are specific laws around Media plurality in the UK and they're both of you say dominant players in the market already.

So that would be a big Challenge for them.

How do you find reporting on where you working?

How long has started in June last year that is kind of got two jobs so this was fun and have you been surprised at first of all the amount of money that's being offered for the Telegraph but all just the amount of Interest how much people care about who owns the Telegraph surprised that turns a debate is take I'm not surprised at the price.

I think if they sell it on.

It will be higher than 510 at the red bird.

It's a really rare.

They don't come off on the on very often one thing with learn of the last 20-years of the internet as you can't build digitally native new brand has influenced.

No one's managed it you think about that sort of failures of BuzzFeed in and things like that.

It just hasn't been done so these Legacy Masters well, then obviously very challenged imprint vehicles implants.

Thank you very much for the moment.

Just staying with this you're coming that story let's bringing Cristiano silver senior culture reporter at mashable.

Who's with us from the USB Cristiano you're coming her a different store.

It's also seeing geopolitics and and media interconnect tell us about the the tiktok story recovering masterbuild that could potentially being tiktok in the US it was past 350 to the 65 to the 10 committee with unprecedented support and it with the house passed there and now it's going onto the Senate where has left secure future when I really sure have a site will handle is the bill in cold protecting Americans from foreign adversary control the applications x but basically it gives tiktok if it's past 5 months to either divest from its parent company bytedance.

It'll be banned from Us stores.

I hope there's an acronym or nickname for that Bill because that's that's a mouthful to use every time your referencing it.

Just help us understand then so bye dancer Chinese company currently owns tiktok to get the regulators and the politicians off.

It's back.

It doesn't have to necessarily lose the presents tiktok in the US but it couldn't have the controlling stake is that right? Yeah, that's that's correct and a lot of the lawmakers who support this Ben or not calling it a bit there.

Just trying to use this to get back the apps to sell its controlling stake in in the US at the argument is that tiktok pose a national Security threat because it's parent company is based like you said I know it's sort of subject to Chinese intelligence laws and hypothetically beer is that it could Force bite the hand over data 70000000 to use this app tiktok for its part has consistently denied that claim.

It says that you are citizens day.

That can't be explained.

Play the Chinese state and it has partnered with oracle the the cloud infrastructure in the US to host all of us today, but that's just not enough for box who want 15 were control here.

I was going to ask you about that because particularly keen listeners to the media show all remembers talking about this moves by tiktok to say look almost all of our data from us uses his be kept in the US why is that why is that not enough to lay the concerns that we're here in a really pushed tiktok to do this, but it's just not enough because the Chinese government still holds that massive steak in this USA but it's interesting you know trump who wants tried to be honest this app with an executive Order now saying he doesn't support the band of this app because he thinks going to give more power to meditate on Facebook

Which he called an enemy of the people recently and he is our presumptive nominee for the Republican party for this presidential election and another hand Biden who is President says that he will sign this if it crosses his desk at the same time his campaign is using tiktok to reach longboarders, so there's a lot going on here.

There is a lot going on a statement here from tiktok which says this legislation has a predetermined outcome of total ban of tiktok in the US the government is attempting to strip 170 million Americans of their constitutional right to free expression.

It's all damaged millions of businesses tonight artist and audience and destroy the livelihoods of countless creators across the country and listening to us Cristiano Talk is Chris from the Telegraph you still here and Chris what's interesting about the story you were describing the different bits for the Telegraph and what's happening in the US is it emphasises how media has become so important?

The geopolitics and domestic politics and lots of countries, I think about TiK ToK it's had a big role to play in the media coverage of a what's been going on in Gaza and it's very dominant man young people so I think and concerns about data security are concerns about influence and a type of stuff that people consuming on tiktok with probably tends towards one side of that debate and the Telegraph you know as I said these Legacy still carry influence in the Western countries that are going to be valuable going to be interested players playing out of businesses are also letting their their positions be known and Cristiano in the case of tiktok Extraordinary situation you can describe it where tiktok users in the US we're getting this pop-up saying get involved in this the right so when you land on to to the app app that came up you couldn't xx out of it.

The only way to get out of this pop-up would be quicker Athenry started and it said you was trying to be on this.

Stop Converse from doing this.

It's an infringement on your first amendment right to free speech and there was a little button that had you call your car's menu entering your zip code and it connected you right there completely inundated with calls and asking with with folks asking if they could stop the bed and at some people were crying on the phone to the Congress made this lobby and very aggressive BioShock Cristiano I see the Senate Majority Leader chuck schumer says he'll have to consult with relevant committee chairs to determine the bills part is that another way of saying this could get stuck in the long grass and actually the chances are it won't happen, or is there still a route through this? I mean it might be this isn't the first time that you have the time to be an app like we said earlier trump trying to do this multiple state have attempted bands.

That is already behind on government-issued devices has taken most of these things to court.

What's 10 to side with the app saying I'm not right there is an infringement on first men traits to speech so even if schumer and and the sun make this difficult to get through and it doesn't make it even if it does and by the sounds of it, but she said he will there still a lot of room for this to not go through thanks for your help on this was the only way appreciate it silver formattable you can find a reporting of that story on the mashable website now next on the media.

Show we have to talk about the picture of the Princess of Wales and her children and the fact that a day after it was released and he acknowledged in a post on explore Twitter as we used to call it that she had in fact edited the photograph and raises a whole range of questions about how photographs end up in the media that we consume.

I'm going to look at this from the point of view of photographers picture agencies and also picture editors with in newsrooms first of all they speak to feel chetwyn global news director or

PR agency feel good.

Have you back on the media show Help Me Understand what happens when an image like this arrives at the airport P1 thing immediately that the question is posed.

Where does it come from because it's all about the source of the content.

Is it a trusted sources that somebody with whom we work all the time so place of the palace or Kensington Palace people that we work with all the time.

So they would be considered the trusted source.

They would because because we work with them repeatedly and because you would be our own photographer doing stories with and occasionally there a hand up photos of key moments such as this which we would be used to dealing so there's a level of trust between us and Hannah is a really important piece of jargon that we need to highlight because it's the practise of an institution or an individual passing on a photo the has.

Taken by a photojournalist is that correct that's correct and it's something that we really battle against and try to do the minimum.

We push back a lot on the quantity of and it did something that increasingly institutions companies supporting organisations and so on repeatedly trying to impose on the media 22-in Innocence control and so this picture arrives and you think this will this is certainly a newsworthy photo do not have Processes to check if a photo has been manipulated in some way.

We do and I think this is about internally I think all the agencies validated the photo which clearly violated our rules because it actually not even very well photo shops in I was clearly a lot of problems with so it shouldn't have been validated as soon as it was all the photo where does all the major agencies immediately saw there was a problem and got together and spoke about it and say what do we do?

Actually you got on the phone with each other I got on a zoom and all talks has coordinated exactly because we used to working together and what we call the Royal pool.

So all the agencies work together turn off.

Just one photography will be covering a roll event and all the other agencies bearing in mind that virtually the entire world immediate subscribed to the agency.

So it's a way of irrigating the whole comedians that were you talking without to other guests on this just before I do you said that Kensington Palace was a trusted source for you at the afp.

Is it still a trusted source no absolutely not like with anything went down by source the bar is raised and we've got in a major issues internally as to how we validate that we should have done it violated our guidelines and therefore you know we all our team at the moment to be absolutely super more vigilant about the content coming across our desk even from what we would call trusted sources of failure form AP1 of the best no news.

He's in the world you telling us you don't consider Kensington Palace a trusted source let's bring in Fiona shield head of photography at the Guardian hi Fiona did you run the story did you run this picture? Yes, we do you know the picture was issued by a number of agencies to whom.

We subscribe and and again we have good relationships trusted relationships with those agencies, and we we didn't spot any editing and we went ahead and published in our first edition as a stand-alone image.

It was you know what we thought it'd be a lovely picture of the Princess of Wales and her family for that.

She disappeared from stay but we didn't I think what's really important to note here is that it wasn't just a picture about Mother's Day it was also a picture that was you know issued to illuminate the Princess of Wales good health.

So it kind of it then transported into a different news category, but we didn't spot the error and once it was.

You know it was showing to us.

We had to run a story on exactly that that you know this it might have been quite happily manipulated and that the agencies have withdrawn etc, and we Delve into the chain really within the media that helps a picture become distributed in the same way that afp.

Saw Kensington Palace as a trusted source it sounds like you had the Guardian if one of the main agencies gives you a picture.

You don't feel an obligation to go and double check it because it's come from those agencies.

Would that be rain I mean in all honesty? Yes, we we do have this incredibly important relationship with the agencies and I think probably feel with testify to that that that they are indeed kind of hold that in great value as well.

It's a kind of two-way relationship and it is about you know it is about trusting the photographer is about trusting the photo editors and trusting their verification processes that they have in place on Monday we had this post on.

Xx

Twitter as we used to call it from The Princess of Wales saying like many amateur photographers, I do occasionally experiment with editing I wanted to express my apologies for any confusion the family photograph.

We shared yes caused Kensington Palace decline to share any of the original photos that may have been taken so we've heard from the Guardian immediately put the afp one of the big agencies that speak to Norman a press photographer whose work for an array of high-profile news organisations and his chair of the British photographers association and Jamie we've already heard this phrase hand out how you feel about handouts and that's not great they we talk about trusted source and you usually an organisation Trust a photographers and a new part of the team and you were into situations where you are trusted to take authentic honest real images when you take a handout you've got absolutely no saying that process you just having to lie in April

But actually can you trust him and I don't think you can any handout are there any situations Fiona from a publications to be like the Guardian where you think I should just not taking this if this isn't coming from I don't want this handout.

I mean this has been a really difficult kind of line.

I think for for most of the British press because in terms of the types of access that we get for example to her and often photojournalist are kept out of events and the only imagery that we may have is what's been supplied to us by Danny Street photographers for example.

I mean Boris Johnson had his own photography and that kind of kick started this normalising of the handout well here's an example of Jamie I'm keen to hear your response to this Prime Minister Rishi Sunak visited a mosque in London on Monday and the photographer Leo posted about this on social media saying number 10 advices to cover the visit we asked to leave during the best moment government photographer stays and gets the best short British papers use the unfair fight government is.

Images and indeed one of those images was published by the times and I should say we invited number 10 to to comment on this and it declined our invitation, but is that the situation you recognise Jamie absolutely yeah the amount of access that we get these days is nothing compared to what used to be the definitely a shift towards government departments having their own photographers and access being restricted.

What is quite normal for governments organisations entertainers lots of different people to have their own photographers and this is something that governments not just in the UK but elsewhere for awhile absolutely but more often than not that's not at the expense of the press been invited it in having an actual journalist in the room taking the pictures at the same time.

They often say space restrictions as the as the reason there are countless examples where looking back that isn't actually true that posted by Daniel about that particular situation one of the first replies field.

Stop playing along if you're unhappy with the point being if all of the different people in the equation when it comes to photography photograph.

Don't like handouts what I have to start being a bit more harder taking them or cooperating in events that use them.

I think that's a good point Ross so we do not distribute hand out circumference from Downing Street Amazon Instant parallel actually because this is what I knew that Downing Street Halesowen official photographer French president and the US President ever official photographers and that's been something has been going on for some time and the media in France and that us have been much more.

You know that the model solidarity in not publishing handout material in France they do not pick up the official photographer material from present and therefore we are able to negotiate much better access as a result because we can tell my account if you don't if you don't let us in you're not going to get the coverage.

Any kind of handout image we are really clear signal that to our readers nuts incredibly important that we do so you know otherwise we're in a situation where were using a stock image perhaps might be my darling.

It's not kind of of the moment and it won't illustrate the peace, but so I think the clear signalling of handouts is really critical but we are also part of the news media coalition which is an organiser of British Media who put pressure on the government and the Royal Institution to allow us access.

Have you been involved in particular situations where you there's been a tension between you and other photojournalists and people are producing handout pictures absolutely I'm done numerous of photographers that have been in the same kind of situations are the last the last solo rota with with the prime minister and you going you plan everything out my washing out yet told where is Gonna Come from and what you're going to talk to you.

Change your there on behalf of Media on behalf of of all the rota group so well.

That's the newspapers the agencies international in the various different polarizations S41 photographer menu are on behalf of all of them and then at the last minute in this particular instance the prime minister arrives and his photographer Raj within they travel together in front of them and gets in the way of it and then it's very limited amount of space in a lot of these situations, but the pirate is never for the Press photographer in that particular instance photographer my camera out the way that you can get for the the best angle, you know it wasn't violent it wasn't it was just a bit uncalled for you and I was trying to get the he was trying to cry and spot which is not even do that with rival photographers in are we all get on very well, so that's not really on this is one issue the issue of handouts and weather in some circumstances are ok and how the media intern.

Institutions using hand out there's also a broader question that arises from the story which is a lot of us in our personal lives at editing photos in one Way or Another on our phones a lot of people professional rugby circles would do things to the photographs they've taken so what is an ok level of editing and what is not acceptable film a clear rules for creditors and photographers about the level of change you can have a photo.

I think one thing it's really important.

Is you cannot be distorting reality for the public.

There's a question of trust The Big Issue here is one of trust and the lack of trust other with a falling Trust on the general public institutions generally and in the media and so it's extremely important that a photo does represent the reality that is seen and therefore it is not Innocence telling some kind of lie or some kind of false truths around an event that happens.

Means that you do have to have rules that limit the use of the software that we use so part of the equation is rules but Fiona presumably especially with a I now just spotting the volume of manipulated images coming away the news organizations the Guardian must be a lot harder now than it would have been even a few years ago and it's absolutely much more difficult.

I mean this is a real concern.

What's what's about to happen especially as we've got you know probably a general election coming up in the UK and elections in the US the kind of concern around AI images and you know it if your photo shopping a picture and you are able to kind of forensically examine it you tend to be able to spot a footprint of you know somebody that has been but not so with an artificially generated image you ever Photoshop at the Guardian you must use Photoshop in some circumstances.

We have rules and regulations around there's no.

Boundaries around or news documentary grand reportage that pixels must not be moved around or the fact of the image changed just wondering and Christopher from the Daily Telegraph and also Christian mashable as well Christopher you were on our program.

Not so long ago and we listen back to it because you remember that you talked about the Prince of Wales and the fact that Kensington Palace and told her that she been was going into hospital.

You said the Legacy Media respect the request for privacy and we'll see massive speculation online that's largely held to be true, but the tension between those two things sure he was part of the reason why that photo was shared on Mother's Day absolutely an attempt to sort down some of the speculation which was reaching a fever pitch and from the States and all over the world at that point.

It's backside of a spectacular way and they seem to have kept on doing since then.

This is the tension between privacy and the media which you can't control social media.

We took a hand.

People still running speculate all the minute break the photo themselves on social media, so it's a big is a big dilemma for laminate clearly not in the right place on Itt what's the American media making this story.

I haven't seen this amount of coverage of the royal family since next this is we are totally hypnotize by what's going on with my way now, so there's interest in this photo.

Yeah a photo and in all of the social media coverage of her.

You know not being around right now and that was just for the Christopher was describing.

I just wondered finally as we head towards the end of the program.

Do you think it would be helpful for Kensington Palace to release the Originals of this of this picture to demonstrate the nature of the editing which said that she did for would you like me to do that that's all we ask for anything when we before we kill the photo.

We all send a message saying it.

I could you could you give us the originals?

Could you know you have a reply we didn't get a reply so that's what we killed the photo, but I think the maximum of transparency is really how you're going to try and build trust.

So yes, I think it would help and we've learnt a few is from within the photographers world in the last few days at kill notice is one just two people can guess what it means but just explain exactly what you're telling your customers when you issue 1, you're basically saying take this photo out of circulation do not pass go do not let it go anywhere make it disappear because it going to be too big deal for an agency to a Kill it feels like how many would you how many would you issue on a photo in a week or a month? It would be really would like to issue more than 1 a month that would say you know it depends if they can be killed for reasonable reason to be copyright reasons or whatever maybe but to kill something on the basis of manipulation on two year maybe the

I've been from the North Korea news agency or the Iranian news agency.

Just to give you some background context well.

That's quite an update.

Thank you very much indeed feel I should make the X-Men Radio 4 programme podcast when it hits the fan is all about this story as you'd expect from a PR and communications proud of you you can find it right now on BBC sounds as indeed you can find every addition the media show and that is it I'm afraid for this edition of the programme thanks.

I feel chetwyn from here from the British press photographers Association Fiona Shields from the Guardian Cristiano silver from mashable and Christopher Williams from the Daily Telegraph thanks also to all of you for listening.

We'll be back next week.

Bye bye together.

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