Read this: Fear, threats and intimidation

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This is the media show.

from BBC Radio 4

Hello.

And welcome to the first hour long edition of the media show.

Yes a few things are different as you can tell we're on are at four p.m.

We're both here and as Katie said.

We've got an hour.

It is a chance to get into more Media stories and to go into greater depth.

In this program.

we'll talk to a journalist who had a petrol bomb thrown at him in Londonderry also CBS news is teamed up with their spiegel and inside it English

for an investigation

A car chase in Florida may have provided the vital clue.

to a national Security mystery

this is all about something known as Havana syndrome and the investigation says it potentially connects to Russian secret agents.

We'll hear from one of the journalists.

involved in the story

We'll also talk to the head of the production company that made gladiators.

And I know roles has a lot of questions on this one definitely do I've been a key view of the last few weeks.

I'm equally keen I Confess

on talking about how we all use email and we're going to get into that because it's the 20th anniversary of Gmail

we'll discuss if and how email.

Fits into the future of how we communicate.

but we're going to start with something you may have heard in the news again today the attack on the Iranian journalists are arti in South West London on Friday

And before we meet our guests let's just go through what we know about this story is Aarti was stabbed and hospitalized on Friday he since been released.

the police and now saying that two people attacked him and they were driven away by a third person they all headed in the direction of Heathrow

all three Suspects the police say left the UK hours after the attack.

Now the police haven't said anything about the possible motive though.

counter terrorism offices

Are involved in the investigation as for periods of art himself?

Well, he's a really high profile TV presenter for Iran international.

That's a Persian language TV news station is based in London but it's

available all around the world.

including in Iran

and I should add Iran denies any involvement in this attack.

But previously it has said it considers Iran international.

a terrorist organisation

and Perez Aarti is now out of hospital and he and his wife said.

To be in a safe place under the police's supervision.

But clearly the whole story raises broader questions about the Iranian Media seen here in the UK and of course the safety of Iranian journalists and we've got one of them.

With us here Sima Sabbath used to be a presenter on Iran international.

She's also worked on the BBC World Service

Thank you so much for coming on the media show thanks for having me on your shirt.

You're very welcome.

I'm

I wondered first in terms of your situation, what impact did Friday's attack on Mr sarati have on you personally, what's your current situation?

Plural was attacked around 4:45 to have 245 on the on Friday last week and I was contacted by the characters and police around seven niche.

Eight oclock almost in the evening.

And they requested me to leave my Residence and stay somewhere else.

because

my place was not safe to say there.

And I haven't been able to go back home since then so today is the 6th day that I haven't.

Been home and what's our situation like for you.

Obviously not easy.

I got a little bit on lucky because I got a call.

On the very first night, so I was coughing and had fever and just going from one location to another location.

It was very inconvenient but at the same time I had a bigger question why?

Why shouldn't I feel safe at my home?

I am a UK resident, I'm a UK national.

I have been living here for very long and why shots.

why should someone be able to

Threatened me at home.

And this presumably wasn't the first time that you've had dealings with the counter terrorism, please no unfortunately not.

There was a plot as in.

terror plot against my life which came into light

December 2023

Which ITV got access to intelligence from a western?

intelligent services which they had information about

a plot which was

supposed to take my life and my other colleagues father's life.

They were living with the code bright to me and the code groom to him.

And they called our assassination the wedding.

In the forests that are recent listened to there was a point that.

It was saying that okay the explosion is not possible.

So go for a quiet wedding and by quiet wedding they meant.

Attacking with the kitchen knife.

And their attack on purea happened with their knife.

so

this has been the line of attack for.

At least as long as we know since.

last year

did you ever imagine when you were establishing yourself as a journalist?

in London the

that you would have to live under these kind of threats.

Well, I didn't expect because we have a democracy here.

We have Free Press in the UK we have a free Society here.

And it's a heaven for journalists in order to be able to report.

Which Iran is one of the biggest prisons?

for

journal

of course ominous UK national I expect to be safe.

Whatever I do in the field of journalism.

At the on the other side dealing within Iranian government I know that I'm always on the Threat doesn't matter where I work.

How I work, what do I do?

My show at the time was one of the it was the most watched.

talk show in Persian Media millions of audience would tuning in it was Prime Time

9:00 p.m.

Tear on time

and audience of course I mean we had uprising of women life freedom to people who were listening and watching to us especially with the internet shutdown.

Like across the country.

So the tv was the only window that the people could get a little bit of information of what is happening at the time so and that's where.

The real threat against us sorted.

And I know that last year februari last year.

I think when you were still working at Iran international the channels London base had to shut down after terror threats from Iran what happened then.

Well, I walk on that one morning um.

It was about 8:30.

I had.

Like normal day of going to work.

I had a show on the day.

And I received an email that there is an urgent meeting.

With the video like with the manager's of editors of your own international.

And during the meeting we were informed that there is a serious stress against the channel and they did the office is going to be closed.

so

after the meeting

ended

I was asked if I can go to Washington in order to continue the program.

The meeting finished at 11:30, I was on my way to Heathrow by 1:30.

and

10 oclock I was in my hotel room in Washington DC

I was

forecasting the program

not broadcasting.

I just arrived 10 oclock in my room and I was just like.

What happened?

And the next the very next day.

I went on there.

Yes, I had my show was the first one that's

resume to

this very next day.

So this was very specifically a threat.

on your life in London or the channel in London rather than

America but they ultimately what they want to get out of these threat is to get you off air to make sure that you're silent to make sure that you're not going to talk about what you're doing to not to.

Um provide information or whatever you do in your journalistic line of work.

Make sure that you're paralyzed your scared.

Do you have a sense of fear of what word you're going to choose to talk?

But we also home office.

For statement for our program today are spokesperson said this remains an ongoing police investigation.

We're committed to giving the police the time and support needed to carry out their enquiries.

It would be wrong to Prejudice the outcome of that investigation.

We will continue to carefully follow.

It's progress and Seema I wonder if we can bring another guest in to talk with us now showing Joshy is.

the defence editor at The Economist he's a visiting fellow at

King's College London shank thank you very much for joining us on the media, show can you help us understand how?

London has become such a hub for Iranian Media

well, it's it's partly that it's a safe place from which to broadcast far c language output into Iran

and that output has been consumed voraciously inside Iran for the reasons that your guests is just outlined.

There's been a huge appetite for it.

This has been a tumultuous.

18 months for the Iranian regime particularly following the death of

Martha amini in septembar 2022 or young?

Kurdish and woman who'd been arrested for flouting the hijab law

Um and uh, what's happened is it's been a it's been a very practical bass for those kind of Media operations.

The irony, I think is it's also been a very conviviale base.

for the Iranian regime both

Iranian oligarchs relatives of the supreme leader Ali Khamenei

Iranian clerics who send their children to London on visa schemes?

for investors

So it's become not just a hub.

for Iranian diaspora Media to broadcast back into Iran

it's become a hub for the Iranian regime and they elite to use as well both for nefarious purposes for violent purposes as we've just heard and also for sort of economic cultural social purposes.

and

Seema gave us some sort of chilling details their of experiences that she's had personally and and plots against.

her

why

well, how

does the Iranian government target journalists here more widely do you have?

Any information on that?

The British government says it's been about at least 15 credible threats by the Iranian state to kill.

Britons or British residents since the beginning of 2022 alone

and they've done this before you know I could point to scores of examples of Iranian assassinations.

um across Europe in the 1980s and 1990s

a lot of those were against former elements of the

Iranian monarchy sort of former politicians former seen in a monarchist agents to see Iranian regime saw them.

What's happened is has been a much more aggressive targeting effort against?

journalist

and the way that Iran does it.

Is is not to use typically, it's own intelligence officers or agents for this kind of violent work.

It outsources lots of this it uses.

a sorted groups of organised criminal networks

Which are basically in some cases allowed to get on with drug trafficking?

in Iran

in exchange for doing jobs

for the ministry of intelligence and security which is iran's main external spy agency one example of this by the way not from the UK but from America

is a few months ago a drug smuggler and a member of the

Kells Angels the criminal group slash biker gang

were among those indicted in the United States for a plot to kill.

Iranian dissidents

in addition to that Iran has also used private investigators to watch dissidents.

And some of them may not know they are working for the Iranian regime.

And same as though it just to bring you back in there.

I think you've criticised the UK government for not protecting you enough.

Here in the UK why?

I just asked a very simple question.

Why should I feel threatened at my home?

three operatives come to the UK

they stop a journalist.

And they go back to the airport they fly back.

and the disappear

what sort of signal does this sense to the public?

to the security of officials

to the government itself like this is a big thing this is a big deal.

This is a direct violation of UK sovereignty.

And in order to you.

Yeah, and then in order to respond to such an important thing.

I mean we need a whale we need a political will behind it.

We need the government to have the will to have a proper proper strategy to contain Iran

In order to do that, we need resources without resources like as long as I mean, we are comparing Russia China and Iran altogether and then.

okay we prioritise this threats from Russia and China

compared to what is running and doing here like I mean the Agents of Islamic Republic

Shawshank

clearly mentioned that there are now there are outsourcing their criminal activities.

They send it to the unit it is a unit in Roots Force called 840 unit.

Which they are indirect contacts?

My assassination came from that Unit 2 now see I'm looking at a statement here from the the Met police saying specialist officers continue to liaise closely with individuals and organizations affected to give them appropriate safety and security advice.

counter terrorism policing continues to work closely with intelligence Partners and others to counter these types of threat

so clearly the police feel like they are working hard to keep you and others say police.

I'm talking about the government and what would you?

Be explicit, what would you like the government to be doing more of?

I want to feel safe in my country.

I want to feel safe at my home.

I am so grateful to the counters and police.

I have been given diet like

proper daily routine advice

in how to take care of myself

how to have the best of the security that I could possibly have

But beyond what they do their should be a political way.

Well from the government behind.

so they would have

kind of priority in what they do.

They need further resources in order to contain such a thing.

but I don't see that I don't see that Iran is at the heart of the strategy of

um preventing such a physical act of violation inside UK

soul same as Abbot thank you so much for going on the programme.

What must be an incredibly stressful time for you.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thanks.

Thank you.

well soon has been with us around here on the media show and if

you're turning on and thinking this is unusual to hear the media show at this time.

Of day where you would be right because up till now.

We've started at half past four but

as of today the media shows an hour long and Katie and I are here from.

4 to 5 on Radio 4 on Wednesday afternoon's now.

economist is going to be staying with us because we're going to talk now about Havana syndrome we're

turning to this issue after a new year-long investigation by CBS dash Beagle and the Insider

into a alleged mysterious attacks on US military.

And Intelligence officials here's a clip from.

cbs's 60 minutes program

And Bam inside my right ear it was like.

a dentist

drilling on steroids

it was like a high pitch Metallica drilling noise.

and it knocked me forward it like

a 45 degree angle this way

well, one of the journalists behind the story is Michael weiss editor of Insider English and online publication that specialises in Russian related investigative journalism, Michael

Welcome to the media show let's just start with this.

For those of us who don't know what is Havana syndrome.

Thanks for having me on so Havana syndrome is a condition that the US government of formerly refers to as anomalous health incidents is it's

a series of symptoms including intense feeling of pressure

in the ear usually in perhaps only one side of the head.

There's a directionality to it.

which is why a lot of people who experience it feel as though they're caught up in some kind of energy Beam

or being attacked

There's vestibular problems people you know lose balance.

They they can't walk properly they develop headaches.

In some cases they have more serious complaints.

One of the first people to to be come to public suffering from Havana syndrome.

Has gone blind in one eye has to be medically retired from US government service.

There was a report that was put out by the US intelligence community and expert panel that was convened.

And this report was classified initially it was published in septembar 2022, but it redacted version describes the core characteristics.

Of Havana syndrome and what's interesting is.

In addition to some of the sensory phenomenon and symptoms that I mentioned.

The fourth core characteristic is quote the absence of known environmental or medical conditions that could explain the reported signs and symptoms.

So we're now looking.

The first case that was alleged was in 2016.

But we've actually found evidence that there were additional cases prior to that date.

So you're looking at that Storage into it.

That's what I was going to ask you is in terms of your new investigation.

What new what did you find?

Well, I mean we found quite a lot.

Just to start where I left off.

There was a US government employee stationed at the Consulate in Frankfurt Germany in 2014.

Who experienced the symptoms I just alluded to but was actually not done conscious this person was working in the consulate at the time.

Doing the day-to-day things that that they do.

And woke up in hospital.

And was diagnosed with mild traumatic brain injury and a host of other complications.

But the real I think.

Groth amount of our findings was we set out.

60 minutes has been exploring this topic for five years the Insider partnered with them in the last year and they came to us saying.

Everyone in the US government we've talked to who believes that this is real.

points the finger at Moscow we're trying to see if there's any kind of connection to the Russian Security Services or Russian intelligence and just to give you some background the Insider

my investigative partners Ramon Deborah hotel and Krypto grozev.

These are the guys responsible for unmasking the assassins of Alexei navalny or the attempted assassination of a Lexington with Nova chuck.

they were the ones who to unmask the Russian intelligence operatives who poisoned Paul and Salisbury

also with Nova chuck

and a host of other things attempted coups and Montenegro the explosion terrorist attacks if you will.

of a succession of ammunition depots in Bulgaria and the Czech Republic so and the the tie that binds is

all of the operatives responsible for

Everything except the navalny poisoning.

Belong to a unit of Russian military intelligence known as unit 29155.

And in the last decade this unit has become quite notorious within.

all western intelligence communities

For the operations that they have carried out.

My units Michael let me just jump in there-- though before you carry on because it would be really interesting for us to understand the process so you take a call from CBS you say we've taken this story as far as we can.

We'd like to involve the inside of perhaps involved there should beagle 2.

What happens when they say to you look this potentially has a Russian angle?

We're not sure can you help? What are the first things that you and your colleagues would do to start?

Looking into that where would you even start?

Well, the first thing we did is we we talked to some of the victims who they were what their backgrounds were where they were.

When they were attacked or they felt to be attacked.

And we tried to determine could we geolocate the presence of known Russian intelligence operatives?

A particularly from unit 29155 because I was about to say their remit specifically is for kinetic operations violent acts of you know military acts, they do assassinations.

They do sabotages.

other Sabotage operations and they do attempted insurrextion right, so they don't do pure espionage if you find them in a city in Europe or

I mean anywhere else in the world Asia North America

the chances are there to ricono their target.

For elimination or for some active violence so what we managed to do.

Using a host of methods.

We obtained travel documents and and and flight itineraries we determined through.

Um you know social media profiles and databases that are readily available.

On the dark Web I mean paradox Russia is one of the most transparent countries in that very sensitive information from driver's licenses to passport data and photos.

Can be obtained for a price and these and these things are sold.

on telegram and other social media platforms

by crooked FSB officers who are trying to make a living

Moonlighting as private security consultants for for companies so using these this methodology.

We managed to piece together the real identities of Gru 29155 operatives based on.

fake cover names that they use to

penetrate Europe

I was just going to say Michael in response to your Media investigation in the investigation of obviously by CBS and

to speak with you spokesperson, Dimitri peskov said no one has ever published or expressed any convincing evidence of these unfounded accusations anywhere.

So all of those are nothing more than unfounded accusations.

Sure shank defence editor of The Economist let's bring you back in what have you made of the investigation? That's been released and how it fits into your understanding of

relations between Russia and The Americans

I'm first of all it's stunning work.

This is investigative journalism and it's very best so I congratulate my in his team.

They've really uncovered some fantastic.

Things in and no less than I'd expect from that team.

Who've done such great work in the past as well.

I do think we have a really interesting puzzle here.

because in last year last last May

the US intelligence community the office of the director of national intelligence odni the

agency that sits above all 17 US intelligence agencies

published a report

in which they said

they thought it was very unlikely among five of those agencies thought it was very unlikely.

A foreign adversary was responsible for Havana syndrome.

symptoms

not everyone not all agencies completely agreed.

But none dissented from the conclusion that a foreign actor.

Did not cause the symptoms and that was a really bombshell moment.

What mics colleagues and Mike in their great peace says?

Is that there's a consensus among the victims there is a cover-up that the US government is hiding what it knows.

About the source of Havana syndrome on the basis that either it would be so shocking is to force the American government to confront Russia or that it would deter recruitment from the CIA and state department so they've set up this really important puzzle.

and I think it you know we we need to learn a bit more to understand how to reconcile these things the question I still have though that lingers with me and I put this to Michael when his peace came out as well is

Why with their no?

British officials for example afflicted as we don't as we don't think there were.

buy Havana syndrome why were they not targeted given that we might expect Russia

To target a smaller country rather than America to target a country they regard as very hostile very aggressive.

And target British Intelligence officers just as they targeted American ones.

I think we have an enduring puzzle here.

Though again, you know the Insider is done remarkable work and shedding light on this puzzle.

And Michael what do you think of that clearly when you do investigations you ask a lot of questions and you can't answer all of them, but was that a question you asked yourself.

Why?

No British officials appeared to have been targeted or said they had been absolutely I mean there is a misconception though a popularity that only American officials have been targeted and point of fact quite a number of Canadian diplomats and Intelligence officers have have been afflicted with advanced syndrome in fact.

I just got off the phone this morning with a lawyer.

Who represents a number of them?

And who now want to to tell their story.

But Josh and Grace is an excellent question you know.

Why not the Brits why not the French why not the Germans yeah? Look the Odeon I report the assessment that was made.

It's very interesting because if you drill down into it there are varying degrees of confidence in that assessment across multiple- intelligence agencies and based on our reporting.

Well in fact let me start with the it's the most obvious.

If you watch the 60 minutes segment, there was a guy on there called Greg Ed green.

Greg Ed green is a retired lieutenant colonel in the US Army he was the head investigator for the Defence Intelligence Agency one of the intelligence agencies.

That is encompassed in.

the odni

and I I was actually present for his interview with 60 minutes in Washington DC about eight months ago or whatever it was.

And I was expecting a very kg answer couched in bureaucracies, as this is usually how these things go well, we don't know the full extent of it.

He literally said on the air.

It's the Russians if it's not the Russians I'll come back on your show and eat my tie but Michael so there is there is a there is a source going on the record for you saying look I think it's the Russians help us understand the journalistic process here is you're going through the investigation because presumably you also speak to lots of sources who don't say things that fit in.

With the story that you end up running.

What do you do with?

Sources you say look at I don't think this adds up to anything or sources who say.

British sources you say look I don't think anyone.

Any of our nationals are involved? What do you do with sources that don't necessarily lead you anywhere? What does that information get shared as much as

the sources that

like the one you've just described.

Oh absolutely I mean you incorporate that into the reporting.

We we contacted the odni again have presented them with their findings and they basically said see our report from last year and oh, we're still open to additional bits of information and so on and so forth.

But look I mean our our purpose was to really Focus from what do we know about the Russian capability? What do we know about Russian whereabouts particularly relating to this unit 29155? I mean we had gotten some steers from us intelligence officials.

We did not agree with the odni finding and I was about to say.

You know the dia had lower confidence in that assessment.

another agency that had lower confidence and that assessment was the NSA the national Security Agency

and end within the CIA by the way.

We've talked to people who have recently retired.

We've talked to a few people who are still active within that agency.

they disagree that this is nothing they they firmly believe that a foreign adversary particularly, Russia

Is responsible for it?

So we tried to present a picture.

Here's here's all the evidence that we think is in the public interest that ought to be brought to light.

But yeah, I mean you know you you raise good questions.

This is a puzzle.

there are a lot of

Unknowns here we don't pretend to have any conclusive.

Definitive evidence we're trying to paint a picture of here's what the Russians are doing.

Here's where they were.

and most importantly of all and

you know people are welcome to interrogate this.

We have two eyewitnesses two of the victims we spoke to.

whose stories had not been told before including as I mentioned 2014 and Frankfurt Germany

who I identified?

By photographs that we showed them to two different members of unit 29155 and in one case into police Georgia in 2021.

It wasn't any member of 29155 it was the son.

Of the founding commander of that unit.

the commander his name is Andrea he's now the deputy director of the Gru

he's inherited all of you have any progressions portfolio and Africa which is a quite lucrative Business and Enterprise

His son, he has been grooming since 16 years old to take over the family business to basically become the next.

commander to 9155

and joy.

Who is the wife of a US diplomat stationed into blee?

Positively identified this man.

Within minutes of her attack or alleged attack.

Standing in front of her house getting into a black Mercedes and driving off Michael and that I know the coincidence.

I'm going to jump in there and I'm going to say if people want all of the details on your report.

They can of course find it on the inside a website and CBS and Dash beagle have also.

Been covering this that's Michael wise from.

the Insider Shawshank jockey was with us as well from The Economist

and you are listening to the media show here on BBC Radio 4 but let's

Look at another story connected to journalist.

That's been in the news this week it happened.

In the Craig and area of London area on Easter Monday journalists covering a dissident Republican Parade were apparently targeted.

with petrol bombs

Niall deaney is Derry correspondent for Belfast live and was one of the reporters?

Involved Niall thanks for coming on the program.

Let's just start with.

What you were there to cover? What was the event on Easter Monday

They the event on the Craig area on.

Easter Monday Joe's past there was a commemoration.

It's not about really they were commemorated in the

Easter later in 1916

there was a

military style

for real from

the model of a creative area which is a resonator area

and there is a silly.

the the period

had not been

notified adequately as my understanding through the the

relevant legislation in Northern Ireland here

and therefore it was deemed by the psna have been

an illegal period

that involved

masked man carry on banners, March and sort of military style.

From the middle of the Craig area to the service cemetery.

as the period

Moved Through the move through the the area there were large numbers of

masks

youth some of them very old.

they were working on petrol pumps they

as they

see of people really made their way to the Ceres there was

there was an Raison there was a thing of the areas, nice and

There was a very ceremony of that nature took place.

Wireless was going on.

a helicopter a police helicopter with a circle over here

the there was a drone playing a message but the legal status of the event that raising people to go home now a play strong.

So that that was the event really you know but there were no as I understand it from me there were no police actually on the ground but of course there were.

John less including you what what happened, what happened to you.

So as the period sorry as the period came there are closed and as the commemoration of the end of the 373 gets opened the people.

Made their way open back under the sort of the residential kragen area.

there were a large number of

young people where in balla klavas where in masks kharian the comprehends with bricks

fireworks the things like that and

I watched a group of journalists.

people who were very easily against the fireball those journalists in a way that I mean Neymar

written journalist and my news reporter.

And a way that I I wasn't particularly easily against the fireball as a journalist.

This particular group of journalists where you know they have tripod camera equipment this kind of thing.

and I get

see

the there were a group of

masks youth

I would call pastor on them.

They were thrown fireworks at on this kind of thing.

there was a sort of

a Confrontation Began on that's why I made me weigh towards that area I know these people are colleagues of mine.

Um people I've worked with before.

and I

I could see that there was a potential first they escalate.

And so I gave me a way to the area.

I

Had a word what's one of the most useful he appeared to be pursuing this group of journalists and ask them.

why

It where you going after this particular group of people.

They sort of modern talking to me the answer was wasn't particularly.

coherent

And at that point a group of very.

Very small children really you know Primary School it's children or age well.

the Mallard

Are trying a milk crate?

fault pedal bones

and at that point I had assumed that one of the older youth.

one of the older masks might

you know tell the

level till the type of petrol pumps elsewhere.

But instead they won't protect our masked young person to say to light the petrol bomb.

And so at this point I could see where where this was hidden so I decided the room towards that group of journalists who are in them that things had on fact that escalated that there was a petrol bomb.

Likely had in their Direction very quickly.

and as I returned to suppose the

There was a petrol pump thrown.

at my feet

I don't think it was an attempt necessarily to you actually set me on fire.

I think it or I think it was an attempt.

You know the frightened me and um but not is is Ross here? Do you think that it was driven by a desire to?

attack

the media who were present whether that be you or the people who you'd been.

issuing a warning to

Well, I'm I mean it's it's difficult for me to.

You know see the motivations of people who turn on down like that where in masks was federal poems.

that they

would like you through those petals at somewhere know you the PS and either play service with more than Ireland had.

presumably taken and

operational decision

not to go under the cregon area because I'm present a target.

To it possible that this particular group of sort of anti-social people who have tied themselves to this.

career

had chosen journalists as a convenient target.

However and as also possible I spoke to the assistant general secretary of the National Union of journalists yesterday.

CMS doley and CMS and believes that this was

more deliberate and targeted than than you know so I mean it's difficult for me.

Give you the motivations of someone who behave like this, but you know either way journalist.

Well, you met you mentioned the police they put out a statement saying what we saw on fold on Easter Monday in particularly the attacks on journalists was extremely disappointing and completely unnecessary they go on.

What we saw yesterday was an unrepresentative small minority he remain intent on causing violence and disorder.

And who would exploit local young people?

In the process and I'm sure now a lot of people listening will be wondering how representative.

is that

Moment that you experience the long with your journalistic colleagues on Monday how representative is that over your experience of being a journalist? Yeah, I mean have that has that ever happened to you before.

Well, I I have to say that the in terms of the scale of the disorder.

that we seen in the Craig and area on Easter Monday

but you know I was quite small in terms of what we would have seen in the past and Northern Ireland even in previous more recent times that the skill of the overall disorder was.

Not particularly.

larger weight

um

the

In terms of the the target of journalists difficulty said, it's unprecedented.

I mean it's we're coming up on five years since the journalist layer McKee

Was shot and killed?

While covering or sorry we'll observing.

I read in that particular area at Easter time.

Should I say that it's I mean it would be difficult for me to say that it's unprecedented for journalists to be targeted this week however.

I- covered a

similar Republican dissident Republican period and commemoration event at least on Easter Monday last year and Craig and area.

and journalists

we're not.

the target

you know it I spoke the colleagues I mean.

I would say maybe more veteran journalist than the Met who have covered.

some of the most difficult

that shorter and some of the most difficult things that we've seen in Northern Ireland over the deck kids.

And told me that they've never seen during the start of it and that way so.

You know what was a learning experience for me yeah, but they say that it was in some way on president for journalists to be targeted even in the Craig and area.

And so you know yeah, and I was just going to send totally so brings.

So thank you so much now deaney from Breakfast live for coming on the program and

Very best of luck with your next next rewarding endeavours.

That thanks.

No very good to speak you know it's Casey and I've been mentioned in quite frequently over the last half an hour or so, this is the media show but a little bit different to how we've been before because we're running for an hour between four and five p.m.

On Wednesday afternoon's on Radio 4 from today onwards and as you'll know that I've noticed Katie and I are both here.

together and we will be

each week on the media show and next on the programme well, we're going to turn to something that I've been spending.

At some time on on my Saturday night, so I suspect some of you.

May have been too.

East has done it 2024.

Well, Ross was definitely ready for gladiators and the impressive another thriller on the travel agent when you watching you are the Thriller on the Travellers in this program or as I'm pretty sure of that 6.4 million people watched the first episode.

So yes, I hit back then and millions more not quite as many as that I think for the final but still very impressive statistics.

Let's bring it down Baldwin managing director of Hungry Bear Media which.

Is the production company behind the Gladiators reboot hi Dan great to have you on the media show?

Hello nice to be here congratulations on a on a fantastic return for the format now as you may know on the media.

Show we like to go right inside how.

Successful formats whether it's TV or radio or podcast or whatever it may be a maid so help us do that in this case, when was the first time.

Someone mentioned this.

To you and and what did you start? How did the creative process?

Begin for for bringing this back to our screens.

Well, we saw a gap in the market you know.

Fitness is big business now.

and

we knew that an entertainment show.

That had fitness at his heart and superheroes Marvel characters.

they are

you know everywhere and so we felt like a revival for gladiators was due.

So we went to the BBC and said.

We think they should happen.

they said

so do we

And obviously wasn't that easy that sounds like a great commissioning project.

Yeah, I was going to say that is not how everybody tells us it works when they get things commissioned, but it it is difficult but I think everyone saw.

that

this could be a smash hit.

And you know the BBC were great about it and so we went about trying to.

bring gladiators back because nostalgia's big business

But we had to evolve it as well.

If you just bring it back the same everyone screams.

You haven't touched it, but if you change it too much everyone shouts leave it alone.

So we had to be very careful with it.

So, how does it work then? You're watching all the old tapes from the from the 90s when it was doing very very big business and are you sitting in your production offices making notes on the things that you want to keep.

and the things that you might get rid of

yes, so what we did is we looked at the old games and we brought the best of the old games back.

and then

we literally started to make up gladiator names.

And we when someone's got to do it.

So once got to do it you know what's your favorite one that you chose.

Well, my kids chose nitro because I said what do you think of that and they were like yeah? We love that one and so you know we we then started to try and find these gladiators, then we had to find some liker to put them in.

and

Obviously, we brought the theme tune back and didn't want to mess with that.

because that would be Madness

as as you know because Ross you're a big fan.

I hear really big fan.

I'm a big fan and I think I and a lot of people were glad that you didn't mess with the music.

Good well know we were never going to touch that.

but

I can reveal that we are going to do a celebrity special so

can we put your name down? I'm not sure I qualify for that description but put it down anyway.

Yeah, we're definitely going to spend a lot of time now working out.

What roles is that gladiator name is gonna be oh maybe it doesn't get a name maybe he just gets to take all right.

I don't know if I want to hear what Katie's idea also imagining him in sort of like crossband.

Not sure I want ya let's go back.

Let's get back to the production process as soon as we poss.

I'm not sure I meant him to be a gladiator a contender Katie a contender okay.

Just checking just checking at what point do you know?

The show is going to be a hit.

I mean do you know from the beginning? This is going to be?

A huge success or is it always really dicey until the first number is coming?

Well, we wanted it to be event television so.

We had to get an audience there of you know three thousand people every episode.

And the first episode we had almost 10,000 turn up.

So at that point we knew.

that

we had something and

you know from that.

You know you said the first episode got 6.4 million now.

It's at 9.8 million the first episode because if I chose it everything.

Yeah, because of catch up so and we didn't think that this show would be something that people would catch up on.

But so many people catch up on it.

and it's yeah, it's gone from strength to strength and we're really

really happy with how it's gone now.

I really interested down that you mentioned the audience because I read other you know articles and so on about.

TV formats saying that the presence of a live audience is becoming increasingly important in terms of

What works?

Both in linear TV but as well and as in catch up tell us about.

where the audience fits into this format but if they're a broader lessons for

for formats that may come down the track.

yeah, I think audiences vital and

they reflect what's happening and you know we wanted to have.

families in that audience with their sponge fingers and their signs

and they

you know they really got into the event of it.

It was it was it was interesting because we almost made two shows we made a TV show and a live event.

Because people who turn up they have to be excited.

You don't want them to leave in.

And they were all very very excited sometimes the mums and dads were more excited than the kids.

but you know I think we also hit a sweet spot because

A lot of the parents that were there.

we're

kids back in the day when gladiators was on and now they've got children.

Who are the perfect day to watch it so it was almost.

the perfect venn diagram

And there's cube been so much written and spoken about a cents.

You know gladiators this gladiators launched and was such a success.

Does it mean you know our TV commissioners now looking for old formats? Are you as a

you know super hot production company looking through old formats and thinking you know this one's you are revival or this one's due a revival.

And of course I have to ask are there any of your pitching with your wife Holly Willoughby to present?

No, I think I think you all you know you always look at old shows that are no longer on television.

the same way you look for

TV from across the world to try and find a hit

So whether you go back or go across the globe?

You always searching you're always coming up with.

new ways of bringing back a show but you know

there's nothing wrong with that.

Because those shows were great for a reason but I think.

You know as well as coming up with our own ideas.

We've always got one eye.

on

what could come back and what could be a hit like gladiators is?

Gone then, what's on your list then?

Well, another one maybe that you'd like to see back Ross may be blind date we ready for that.

I was going to say Blind Date well.

That's exactly I should be a TV exact well.

We were charging in the office earlier actually about how really when gladiators was in its pomp in the 90 wasn't just gladiators.

It was Baywatch blind date and gladiators that people used to watch as kind of three programs together.

Let's face it that we used to watch as three programs together.

Exactly and what a Saturday night at that was yeah, so okay, so blind date if you pitched that yet or that's just an idea.

You're sharing with us.

No, I'm just sharing it with you now.

I'm thinking blind date with Claudia Winkleman on BBC One how about

It yes, please alright well.

We'll let you know if they get in touch with imagine they'll come straight.

Straight to you I suppose that.

I suppose that the other question with gladiators is whether

once the initial surge of nostalghia.

Perhaps lessons a little bit whether this format can hold people into a second series a third series and so on.

Well, I think that you know as you pointed out previously.

There is now bite in drama.

In this show and the underdog come in through.

And I think that.

As with all sporting events.

Some of the action some of the drama is thrilling and you you know you can't write it and I think that.

you're always going to get that I'm gladiators and

Seeing these you know physical specimens.

Go in head to head.

And the underdog Cove it out the doctor or the nurse or the teacher winning.

I think you know there's always room for that.

I think that that's just part of our culture to enjoy moments like that.

And I think that.

Gladiators is here to stay on gonna say I think I think it's here to stay you've made roles are happy man.

They go we got ours one more question before we let you go because we're about to do a

our last segments about email and Gmail I just wondered whether you are hungry bear your production company.

Do you use email a lot and how do you communicate on set and

Yeah, we use email a lot but I would say.

What we use most now is what's up on set you know you have.

big WhatsApp groups for production

or

production management

Or you know for gladiators.

We might have a floor team that are all on a WhatsApp group.

And and I think that that for us is a great way of communicating now in our Productions without doubt.

I'm guessing that's going to ring true for quite a few people listening as well Dan fantastic to have you on the media Show please come back on that's Dan Malden

managing director of Hungry Bear Media which makes

gladiators amongst many other programs

and we asked Dan that question about email because Gmail celebrated.

It's 20th anniversary on Monday launched on April the 1st 2004.

Some thought it was Google's annual.

April fool's joke, but far from it it now has 1.8 billion users.

And we wanted to talk about this because really the story of email is the story of how we choose to communicate whether it's at work or outside and it's all about.

The deal that we all make when we choose to use free technology like Gmail it's not necessarily.

Entirely free as we're going to be hearing Mike Isaac is joining us he's tech reporter for the New York Times and here in the media show studio Hobbes journalist and author of the upcoming book working assumptions Julia is a specialist.

In the evolution of the workplace & but Mike first of all let's get a history lesson for you.

to from you take us back to 2004 the launch of Gmail and why it was such a

high impact product

yeah, so it's funny to think of now because it's so ubiquitous, but I do remember when it was kind of an invite only system in the valley.

It was one of those things that was pretty.

The sound is nerdy but it was cool to have if you could get in early and it's this it was also a time where.

Email was still sort of fragmented across a number of different properties that were kind of wanning over time.

You know people had AOL emails people who have

Yahoo emails which still kind of exists to this day and persist

With no judgement, I will say.

so

I was this sort of novel thing but I think what they did.

alright was

the simplicity at least initially of the interface very stripped down very just sort of clean white with text without the sort of accouterments that you get in a lot of these other big portal companies that existed back then.

And then it really it's spread particularly because of that.

I might before we bring Julia in just helped us understand the business model this was costing Google and awful.

Lot of money.

We were getting it for free.

How come yeah?

I mean, it's a real.

sort of core component of how I would say web 2.0 companies work instead of

charging you an upfront subscription fee or a payment for something.

Basically you're paying with a it's free to use but you are paying with the information.

You're giving it but whether it's

You know your browsing habits or the types of emails that.

you know

better being sent at least from the

they get information on whose sending you email rather so

it really sort of became this thing that feeds into their overall business and how.

their data collection practices work and that became

sort of their model for everything to feed their main search business which is a is an absolute money maker for them.

So essentially what we thought we were getting for free turns out.

We weren't getting it for free.

No Surprises there are five more in Julia

hope if I can bring a Julia Roberts hopes for now.

I mean our relationship with email has changed a lot obviously since.

2004 when Gmail launched

Well, it kind of has but it's never gone away.

I mean it's the main medium and the purveyor of the main message in certainly in white colour work.

And everybody depends on email.

There's 350 billion emails sent today.

And the market set to grow I I think it's interesting might talking about the history.

Because in office terms in workplace terms.

it's really the arrival of enterprise Software

and say what that is well.

That's really paid for bought in.

systems for instance and Microsoft's Outlook I mean I I think what's

Interesting is not just the 20th anniversary of Gmail but the 30th anniversary.

Of microserve, which was an absolutely key essay published in 1994.

really all about Microsoft and

Bill Gates is nicknamed inside Microsoft used to be

bill g y because that was the email

bill g at Microsoft you know so it's a culturally fantastically.

resonant and

I think Outlook and Microsoft probably my might disagree.

Have as much in the history of workplace use of email as Gmail does.

But isn't the fact the matter that in 2004 some people at least would have been getting excited about the functionality of Gmail and how Gmail was fitting into their working life.

So any anecdotally when I talked to people about email not many people look that animated and excited about the experience.

It's almost like the technology.

It's still the default but somehow the technology isn't catering to people's needs as well as

maybe once it did well.

I'm not sure that's right.

I think that it is the backbone of all communication and I think that rumours of its Demise are exaggerated.

for example slack was supposed to sort of completely wages, just explained for people who don't use that is one of the message of platforms systems so

Email if you like is more like.

The telephone or the keyboard it's never gone away from how we have to.

transact information now that's memos that

Is also silly stuff and it's also embarrassing stuff.

And you know who hasn't hit reply all and sent the wrong thing I know I have but.

slack and other communication platforms which

grew in popularity and which would now cause a lot of trouble in Offices with

you know people are arguing on them the whole time we're supposed to sort of replace email but

nothing has actually replaced email and yes, it might be a bit boring and unglamorous but

It's sort of still does the job.

Boring on glamorous and then my case hundreds well.

No certainly tens of thousands of unread ones in my inbox which scare me every time.

I look at it and Mike if I could bring you back in my guys it from the New York Times just to talk a bit more about.

You know Gmail and a Google's business model I think in 2017 it stops scanning Gmail uses emails.

In order to target them with personalised adverts I mean probably most people wouldn't have known that was doing that in the first place, but why did it have to stop?

So, I think that a real Turning Point came in the United States but really.

across the world that EU the UK and then other countries 20 around 2016 2017 when

people really started

realising the power of technology and how it can shape the world more than I think.

folks suspected in the past and

that's when regulatory agencies really started waking up and pushing back on some of these companies you know and

these days now.

It's it's sort of obvious in the United States the federal trade commission the securities and sec the

Department of Justice here all pushing back and in some cases super going after them in legal cases.

but

basically, they sort of companies like Google and really Facebook

for very long time enjoy getting as much data as they can as long as they're able to

and

around 2016 and 2017 I want to say they were really.

starting to push back at least on some of these big companies and Google at least as well as it's

sort of

compatriots I guess started.

At least pulling back that's but that is not to say that they don't still do it in other ways they collect.

tons of information on us whether it's through Chrome their

internet browser or through the obviously search for the fact that they own

Android which is the operating system on phones that you know more than have to world has at this point so

even if they pull back a little bit on one of their products like Gmail they can still sort of collect a lot of info on us throughout to the many ways we use Google

and Julie I'm sure as people are listening.

They're thinking well.

What are the different messaging apps and pieces of software and programs that I use on my computer to communicate whether it's instant messaging or

email and do you observe as the

years go by that the dividing line between what we may use in the workplace and what we may use outside of the workplaces as become far from clear I noticed when Dan

From the production company which makes gladiators was talking about them using WhatsApp on set you were nodding.

You weren't surprised by that yes, and I I

have a podcast and called the nowhere office and I communicate with my producer and Miami

with WhatsApp and then he emails me links to Dropbox so we're all sort of immersed and embedded in the workplace in working around.

Technology in Multiple platforms and this is part of the problem.

We're overloaded.

To your point Katie I think the world divides very neatly.

Between those that let their emails rack up and those like me that are really Neurotic and absolutely have to have a clear inbox at the end of the day or I feel I'm going mad.

Yeah definitely people in my team looking at me and go slightly to the blood Blanche when I it's one or the other is it I used to be Julia and I and I'm tracking across to being okay.

I'm glad you're joining me.

I'm leaning you that way.

Well, we're all ending up in that but I mean just in terms of emails.

Cultural significance relative to any other of the mediums you know you only have to look at popular culture that wonderful episode.

in the office, when

The manager tried to you know put people under surveillance and ended up over sharing.

Something Bridget Jones even in the Dropout you're BBC's hit show at the moment the kind of the killer moment.

in the story develops when an email is sent you know email is absolutely critical and

I just don't think it's going anywhere.

And let's just bring back in Joshua from The Economist because he's got a story it's like sobering story about.

Well, how instant messaging can impact real-world situations?

what is my favorite it's my favorite Gmail story and it's of course little over 10 years ago if you remember David petreus was the director of the CIA

he was having an affair with his biographer Paula Broadwell

the way they communicated.

Was not through you know what we would do today signal or encrypt end-to-end encrypted app.

It was with a dummy Gmail account.

Not sending any messages, but simply exchanging messages in the draft folder.

With each person logging in to the same account reading leaving a draft of their own.

And I think it's fascinating that this is he is a director of the CIA the world's biggest.

most advanced Intelligence Agency relying on

gmail's draft function to engage in this clandestine communication for

for the purposes of an affair

Sure shank, thank you very much indeed for for being with us.

Thanks to Mike and Julia too by the way if this discussion is pictured interest.

Make sure you do listen to the new Radio 4 Series Helen Lewis has left the chat and in it Helen explores.

How instant messaging is changed us it started today?

You can get the first three episodes on BBC sounds right now.

but I'm afraid that is all we've got time for today on the media show thank you so much to Dan Baldwin from Hungry Bear Media

Julia Hobbes born journalist and author

naldini Belfast live and Mike Isaac New York Times earlier in the program we heard from Seamus sabet from formerly of Iran international TV Shawshank Joshy from The Economist and

Michael weiss from Insider English

that's it though for our first hour-long edition.

Thank you so much for listening to the media showers ever you can find all our Editions on BBC sounds.

But for now from me and from Katie and from all of our guests thanks for listening.

Bye.

Hi, this is Christy young.

I just wanted to let you know that young again.

My podcasts for BBC Radio 4 is back.

I'm telescoping two- bits of the story together.

That's okay.

It's only memory it's only show bits we can say what we like.

In young again, we're joined by some of the world's most intriguing people bill was the CEO at Microsoft at the time and I asked a simple question if you knew then what you know now.

What would you tell yourself?

Be very very careful about the people you surround yourself with.

I gave too much power to people.

Who didn't deserve?

Subscribe to young again on BBC sounds.

I'm looking forward to your company.