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Is this the TikTok election?…

Take some time for yourself with soothing classical music from the mindful mix the science of happiness podcast to exploring the science of a happy with more meaningful life door to that, please within on BBC sounds music Radio podcasts.

Hi, I'm Katie razzall, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello today with thinking about the impact big tech and have on democracy and we drilling into weather here in the UK we are experiencing our first tiktok election azzopardi Scramble to get their messages to go viral on the platform.

We've got some seriously big brains to help out to man has a new book.

Our relationship the technology go to the senior editor Bloomberg and Martha Lane Fox is a UK Tech Pioneer co-founder of last and now crossbench peer and president of British chamber of commerce welcome to all welcome offer that's quite an impressive CV they had 5 years old when you were starting out with last and presumably back then people laugh today at the idea that we might be buying and we've spent the time convincing people the internet wasn't going to blow up quite literally so all investors that we sent our business plan to inform late 1997 early 1990s 870 everything I won't be only got in front of one because of some weird bit of rooting by the postal service and they said no so it was quite a long stretch to even get the cash and it wasn't that people didn't think last was going to work then.

That was going to happen.

They thought the internet was really like you to make it and instead.

He became not just incredibly successful, and it was also a huge animedia celebrity.

I would say I remember you being in the medium and as we are here as we are the meteor shower and was interested.

I bought that experience was like to be suddenly the focus of attention now you've now that I was 25 and I think when I look back on it.

I just kind of bubbles around being excited about our business and the possibilities of entrepreneurship happening in places that were different and the people like me with star businesses rather than what have been traditionally older white men so I now look back and I think well I was so Naive I don't you know in any way begrudge all your attention.

We got because it really helped build the brand Brent was my co-founder in the business with his idea.

You got cut out of photographs and it was as though I was the one that was some has storming head with e-commerce Revolution so I was like as a 25-year old woman.

Haggard I'm now, but I think that it was still very unusual and it was just a bit misogyny and just going to talk much more about the culture Silicon Valley tech hear the impact it has on the rest later, but we're gonna start with the UK and UK election coverage damp outing at the Downing Street lectern happen soon after we came off air a little early last Wednesday as towards the end of the first full week of campaigning are lots of Media angles to discuss with Katy balls Wellcome political editor of The Spectator who's with us, but first.

I just wanted to see whether we can reach Jessica Alba the deputy political editor of the garden and I think Jessica if I'm right you're on the bus and you're going to be able to talk to us a campaign bus is am I right are you there? Yeah? That's right.

You're right.

I can your on the labour boss.

Where are you and also? I guess how stage manage does a journalist day on on the campaign bus is a bit like being on a school trip.

The morning and then you going round later.

They are the ones who are really trying to make sure nothing goes wrong because they're the ones in the lead and you get very carefully curated events you know in case the parties and it's not am I right you're not actually it's not actually the labour bus officially as yet or it's not the actual one that they going to be using the rest of campaign know they have the battle bus that used to have branded red buses that they will made that was November and it turned out not to be a bit more time then it turned out they didn't you know clearly really important.

What's the focus on policies rather than stunts, but there are stunts along the way there? Are you know moments in The Campaign where you were you see things happen? I suppose Ed Davey the leader of the Liberal Democrats paddle boarding yesterday and not quite loved average.

Have you witnessed so far any unusual party stunts on your on your bus come on you but they travelling with you.

So yesterday.

We had the technical stuff on that I mean a lot of things to do but no mostly as well away from any of those people hear people and they don't want that Edmund iPad in the 2015 campaign.

We seen him do things that are very kind of standard by politicians factories University early.

Football football club's, but it's ok, when is feeding the press back this morning in Cornwall I think with bacon sandwiches are certainly some kind of Sound does he picked up on journalistic principle when you have to go hungry and that's what they all just taking taking the sandwiches well.

I mean one of the things that happened unfortunately you don't get for free.

You know I think that people have to pay the battle bus yeah, I don't play well.

We might ask has got something to say The Spectator cannot afford the labour of Us

Enough value, that's probably it is probably a better way to phrase if I Boston ok fair enough well.

I'll let you go off on your on your bus trip continue having well.

I don't know that I mean it continue continue the hard work and you got a clue.

Get your money's worth.

So good luck Katy balls from your perspective.

I know we're very early on turn the media as Asda Jessica saying labour's very worried about you not being in the lead and any gas.

Have you know them because obviously seen the photograph and exit sign and there's a Ferrari around that.

What about Labour I think there's definitely something in there probably the first election day properly covered in 2015 then.

Obviously we had quite a few since then and more and you would normally expect and I think that's so far.

That's US election apart is just how far labour ahead and any

In the leader election campaign tends to be a lot more cautious parts of a ming vase strategy, you know trying to carry the cross of for about anything going wrong and I think particularly when you have a leader with things become more risk-averse and also I think it also means that when it comes to the Tories that I think as him for the gaps of the rhino called but they don't have much luck with them right now and also because they are so far behind janissary actively looking I think for anything that suggest you know they are the Titanic going to the Titanic shipyard has been filmed on planes before next exit signs but maybe framed where the exit sign isn't seen but now it's been a feeding frenzy one is one that actually you know I'm speaking to some form of campaign aides and they said she various hotels.

We have his launches.

You got and try and cover exit signs units is real 101, but I'm playing you're not really allowed to do that.

But I think again you don't get the benefit the date when you're 20 points behind and so far you've had so many gaps already, but I want to talk about an election night because the BBC this week confirmed that selection night lineup describe my bag sharing presenting duties sky had already announced Kay Burley and Sophy Ridge to lead its coverage Channel 4 has Krishnan guru-murthy Emily maitlis and eye-catching Lee the rest of politics Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell are going on TV so what do you think about podcast as they're coming broadcasters on Channel 4 is that is that I catching is that something different as someone who does a couple of podcast and probably biased but no I think if you think about well lots of really politically engaged audiences, are I think podcast audience and more politically engaged and your traditional broadcast through that type of television and therefore bring me across a really popular podcast at the rest of politics.

You'll have the newsagents.

I can't respect.

I won't but I think bring it to election night is potentially going to bring you some viewers in Huber haps don't tend to watch TV live there to get the news in other ways, so I think it probably is if you think about her every election gets different I think 2020 digital but I also think perhaps it is heavily podcast election we have so far is a saturated, but it's clean appetite for a lot of stuff and the BBC has a pad and you had a problem to solve with the absence of Hugh Edwards clearly they going for of warm or informal style.

Do you think they've sold that he had this problem they succeeded with a sign up.

I don't like changes.

You know this because what they always have but of course again.

I mean with The Raccoons like a very respected for me.

Please close the BBC and I think Clive myrie, across lots of different platforms has had that I think.

Looking across the different programmers the presenters obviously very important, but it is also about who are the guests and commentators.

You're getting on and you know there's some talking to the phone.

I think you'll be on ITV you have Andy Burnham on the Sky coverage and often those moments that go really viral are actually when you have the politicians in the room all the former politician who you know when a result comes in have that Money Can't Buy moment that no other broadcaster can get because they're in your studio and remember many from 2019 when you know is a bad rib of Labour and seeing some the interactions between covent covent.

I politicians and new Labour and I think that's probably I mean in terms of our coverage election and I live blog will waterlows moments and Tim's what we're going to cover.

So what are you doing on that? Are you flicking between them? Are you just doing your own start my Sky goes for you now, then they are going to be taking over Roy Keane sport studio.

It's how they get.

That kind of soccer Saturday that information and technical techno going already very well one channel up on the big screen probably that other than the things but I switch between them to really get to get a favour a bit, but will definitely have different staff looking at each channel so we can get the videos and then she's going until I blog ASAP another loan form.

What do you do on election night? Are you on the election or any of these appealing to particular is very strange not being able to vote they take your motorway when you become a member of House of Lords if you will be aware.

So it's not that it takes your own personal stake in it away because it was taking it, but it definitely changes somehow your relationship to the election.

I think I'm just was reflecting on something I heard on Radio 4 account number earlier this week interviewing some farmers about how they were.

Voting I guess I've been talking to family somebody had and not one single one of them was going to vote or watch anything and that really struck me and I know that that's the constituents were the country farmers, but it is really important to remember that we think I'm in the other thing there's now been confirmed in terms of the election and TVR some leader debates which is your night going to take part in their first head-to-head of the election campaign next Tuesday on ITV with Julie Etchingham hosting I'm a member back in 2010 when those first that was the first time to bait happened really define by there is all that and I agree with Nick and all the stuff that happened how much do you think they'll count 14 years old how much they matter these days are still really important often set the tone and I think that it comes to the first reminder again next week whichever leader comes out the best from that will have momentum guess you.

Hi viewing figures of course I think the more you know the more that young audiences another start to get the information from different platforms digital platforms.

They become a little bit less important that sense but they still sell town and Westminster and then that's the engine that then leads to the printer furcations than some the broadcast coverage.

So so I think they they will play a key role.

I just don't think they are you know the endless am I think that the 2010 elections only the broadcasters had assigned 76 different rules to get this over the line everything from where the camera angles are no cutaways all of that they still do you have to sign so many that it can make the format quite formulaic but how the party see them, but I think the parties obviously that is very important, but it depends on where you are in the polls.

You can always take out the political party if you were 20 points even 10 points ahead in the polls.

You were far more suspicious of leaders Debate and far more sceptical.

Have several you will probably take the Vue one or two will do if you were very far behind in the polls and you want every opportunity.

You can get at the other ones pushing so it's funny that you know back in 2019.

It is the Conservatives Boris Johnson's team arguing against doing loads of debates now the Conservatives the saying oh kiss Tom are you Wimp why won't you do the six debates on a week? And I think we can explain that pretty much I was a 99% through the pole lead to participate and actually having many litres for the wish he hadn't but why that then did you agree to it, but I think if you looked at the holes and that election and probably goes to her to the previous.

Yeah, I think it's something about communicating with the public.

I also think if you feel the so you have a different message and I'll actually be seen differently that's where you want to get to.

If you think of someone, who is across the detail you tend to have an interview that you have you were going to shine in these debates the problem is you can know all the details but it can be a very random moment that no one saw coming as much as agreed to all the conditions.

You can't agree every single question and after the viral moment if you think back to the Tory leadership contest Liz truss vs.

Rishi Sunak I think we should see next time for bed you really well, then one of the big teams was that humans look to his lecturing and talking down or mansplaining became the word Liz truss, so they can surprise you and lots of different ways cited about with the Bates I'm more excited about the Biden trump debate because that is the first ones in incredible restrictions put on it and the list of things that I was reading it reminded of trump and interrupt all these different things that that would be interesting to watch will you be watching any of these are some of them because I think it's always it's too rare to actually.

sexy leaders of political parties try and layout their stool and argue directly with each other and live in Parliament actually get a proper debate going there would be respectable in other contexts as an exchange of ideas and we will keep on the subject of election, but turn more to what cables does measure there in terms of the digital things I want to talk specifically about tiktok because some people adding is the UK's first tiktok election after the Conservatives announced their proposals for national service for 18-year olds labourer post this clip on the platform from the movie Shrek with the caption Rishi Sunak announce in national service and Rishi Sunak also did his first video on the Conservative Party is TiK ToK account in response to some of the

To the policy, I picked up.

Sorry to be breaking into your usual politics 3 feet but I'm making a big announcement today and I've been told that the love you already has some news on it first thing no, I'm not sending everyone off to join the army what I am doing is proposing a bold new model of national service at 18-year olds give us the basics showing her because lots of people will think of tiktok as a platform for kids because you don't vote but who is consuming political content on tiktok tiktok itself has been trying to dispel the idea, but it is mostly a platform and app used by children and that seems to be true.

It is also widely used by the Elder millennials won't stay which campaign and also gen Z you know which is a pretty big cohort and they can all vote and have often very strong political.

So they are on tiktok looking for Political contents.

I don't know that the necessary looking to be fed political content by the political party is that has been interesting to see some of the reactions to each of the two major party videos and it's also that tiktok Bans political advert.

So these are this isn't advertising so what what are the party doing on there? So you know a little like any social Media platform the parties are allowed to have accounts and uneven issue out content but what they can't.


It is pay to terminate that content more widely to a broader audience on tiktok.

They can't pay for spray as they have to try and go viral naturally as it were.

I don't know if we'll see you tonight videos going particularly viral, and it's I'm saying but that's the goals they can't pay you know one drawback is that tiktok isn't this study particularly transparent about how it's April

Stuff so you know we don't necessarily know you probably the major political parties are not breaking the rules but we do know that influence who sometimes skirt the line and Times of what that posting so that's not to say that you know even though there is this ban on political advertising you may not see contender, but sort of Scots that a little bears ok? Well.

It's the Perfect Moment to bring in Sean creative ad agency Topham Guerin because Sean is known as Boris Johnson social media Guru having worked on his 2019 general election campaign Sean welcome to the media show play to be great to have you I think you're use of tiktok as a useful election tool actually came later at last year in New Zealand around the right with National Park social Media campaign an app party one that election why then did you focus on tiktok and presumably you believe it translates into votes that's right.

You know we saw a few.

Stannaway people were using social media and New Zealand and the best example I can give you is we were we know we're working in the office and gravy and tiktok videos with the nail Prime Minister anytime my niece said are you won't believe what just happened? I've just had someone stop me on the street and said it recognise me from tiktok in that sort of represented racing plastic play Watership for the platforms ability they have genuine cut through with audiences scale and with voters and you know to be honest here in the UK with already seen that the labour wrapped up in 18 million views in the last 2-days on tiktok alarm the Conservatives you know if you million themselves now to pay for those views on other platforms would be extremely expensive and as we discussed already.

That's all organic.

That's all based on their quality or lack thereof in the content that they've been sharing and domains.

Effective form of communication in Argos how to say half the internet is just names and political parties.

You know I still in clearly needing to embrace them to disseminate them to drop just tell us that works then you're trying to get you can't buy your ways of problems on tiktok, so you're trying to create it means whatever it might be.

What are you doing sitting around with the Young team talking about how they do that how you do it? Yeah? That's right.

Look I think it would be helpful.

They have a young team at the helm of that a lot of these trends were internet subculture is that sort of a capture different audiences on tiktok and when you can find a way to mash your political message in with this trend or a state or continent.

That's when you can really start to get viral content going you know that Cilla Black Surprise Surprise that is it is a main that's been going around on tiktok for a while and label where able.

Tibet with the national service policy to both van Conservatives have you got a young team? Who is really well versed with these sorts of subcultures and Trends on tiktok, then you can live with really hard good ways to use in a tiktok for content as well.

We can engage with photos and respond to videos when you rang Boris Johnson social media tiktok without followers cloud as back in 2019.

I guess it was more about Twitter Facebook Instagram I know the time you will criticise for renaming the Conservatives Twitter account fat cheque UK to attack Jeremy corbyn's labour.

How did that fit into your campaign? Is it very much about creating controversy, so that then you will barrel lock iPhone controversy in things that are a bit spicy.

I do definitely attract more attention in a campaign you spend most of the

Heating for that a team, but on your message or on your sort of Focus for whatever it is that day that week or over the course of the campaign and it's really hard the noise out there.

You're completely against all the other political parties and you can pay me against the brand or advertising that marketing themselves dividers for whatever reason and so you need to get attention and you need to retain attention.

So yeah, you do have to draw a few spicy pieces of content into the max to get attention.

Not everyone will like it as we you know the Lions in 2019, but that's part of the game and you have to do you have any regrets about something like that.

I mean in terms of the ethics around it is suggesting something is fat UK Conservative Party Twitter account account that chick everything lately trying and about so I still only don't regret that and I haven't seen much time thinking about it.

But others obviously have and they're entitled to do that and when it comes to hear you know you're talking about how how your assessment of how labour slept into this.

What about the Conservatives when it comes to clearly they are facing an uphill battle with younger voters and you assume.

We also assume that those younger voters are more on tiktok.

So why why they bothering I was also quite surprised that it was the first tiktok.

Yeah, what you've got a talk to those where they are the conservatives.

Obviously looking to find more voters than I currently have any cancer tiktok to great place to start the approach to tiktok is a lot more serious a bit more policy lead obviously fronting with the later.

You know Apex labour could use more of the ilayda in Lacey Turner black and Shrek but the Conservatives want to sort of Lane into a serious time by using a platform by responding to people ask questions like a meaningful way of talking to.

Now is Laura time left in this campaign for a bit more creativity to throw itself at the tiktok account wide expect to see some fun being held by them till it's really important to have a sense of humour and these campaigns but it remains to be seen how you are the parties will embrace that sort of time will also join by Sam Jeffers is the founder of who targets you an organisation that campaigns for transparency and the way politicians campaign online Sam what's your reaction to watch Sean has said I mean do you have your suspicions about the online Tactics used by the parties may be one of the things that are the last four years has been there is no more transfer at least you can actually see the ads people are generally running roughly that audiences.

They're trying to reach with those as you can see what they're saying you know tiktok hasn't had archive again that there's no place.

Look at the videos people are running and see what they're trying to achieve with them and so on I think you have a response to that kind of organisation is there to try and monitor this content stuff so happy for trying to use it in different ways try and just tell it make people aware of the ways that can happen to them over the next 6 weeks or so, so you know I think there will be bad things people will cross lines here and there.

I think you know something like the fact check UK thing clearly pre warned the political parties this time around about what will happen if they do things that do seem to cross the line and having find themselves in Ibiza Spotlight for a day or two after when I think that's one of the things that might hold Back the ai generative.

Ai wave.

Is is that sort of sense that you might get hold over the coals for using it how much of a party spent already? I know it's early days, but do you have an assessment of how much they've spent on digital campaigning so far in this election?

You know labour since the election was announced to spend about £375,000 on on Google YouTube ads alone which is half as much as they said last time already so in the first week of the campaign when notionally things are just getting setup and we're just trying to work things out there already 50% of the way to what I didn't in 2019 the Conservatives bit slow off the Mark come inside their advertising spend maybe not in a quarter of Labour done so far, but you know there's lots of money and I think we're going to see you both parties absolutely breeze past what they did last time very quickly and the campaign which messages have had the most spend put behind them.

Can you tell that I mean the biggest single ads that have done so far is stonar biographical stuff on a backstory who I am why I am the way.

I am what I believe my parents so many things that you know some people can knock him for a kind of doing again and again and again but clearly late party things that they need to keep telling them.

I'm telling you now £40,000 on individual YouTube ads just just telling that story in the last week, but also then you know label 7 running lots and lots of the ads around the country as well.

You know the proper spelling rules for candidates only really kick in once Parliament dissolved in the next couple of days.

So you know there's a lot they can early rush to get your message out there before you start to be constrained by some pretty strict limits and what about the conservative leaders like the big colour Rishi Sunak launch video is the one for example they been pushing most on Facebook about £10,000 on that you know that have been seen you know many millions of times across the country, but you know it's kind of interesting how you know for this idea is the presidential style campaign the about to have actually Sunak seem to be sitting a little bit behind the kind of Tories general sort of attack themes and trying to push people out of the colour of photo voting for a form kind of column that they seem to be really worried about so that's the predominant.

In their messaging so far and just have we got any evidence that make sure he just been to clearly think they do work, but have you got any evidence that micro targeted digital campaigns actually working presumably they wouldn't be his mummy.

If I didn't think I did think there's a few a few reasons for this.

This is just you have all these channels available in all these audiences available to you.

There is just a sort of mutually assured destruction magic to political campaigning which is you know there is no tomorrow.

We have a budget.

We have to spend it.

We have to reach people and and you know what we'll see what the other guys are doing I will try and watch it and back and forward we go so I think you know there is evidence from various places over time where you know it's a while ago now but the 2015 campaign for example the Tories target is a lot of Lib Dem held marginals.

There was transparency.

You can't really see into what was going on that election and then after they won.

They they saw have credited the the ability to spend load money on Facebook in those places.

So you like there is a mixture of like.

Logic folk folklore ability to raise money and get volunteers mobilised to do those sorts of things that help campaigns move as well.

Please contribute positively to a political discourse.

Well it depends what they are doesn't mean I'm disappointed to hear they spent so much just telling us about Keir starmer's life story.

He would have thought that they might have some policies to offer a manifesto, so yeah, it depends what they are and what they are trying to say I think the thing about I'm really start by what about you going to talk to voters where they are if you want to talk about where they are now we are on social media.

So I think it's less a case of it's a new thing to use technology and it transforms politics is more a case of political parties always want to reach us and persuade us and get us to do things were not usually members of political parties anymore a lot of the old conditional.

Reaches and maybe fall on the way, but we do have his social media and tickled by the mutually assured destruction like we've got a budget and have to spend in her parents again.

You've written recently about tiktok.

I was saying earlier was surprised that was in his his first tiktok on the Conservative Party account, but then that's presumably because they banned tiktok from government phones not very long ago last year.

I think because of security concerns.

He did and I wonder if that's part of the reason that both Labour and the Tories have so slow in really getting in on tiktok as a way to campaign all get photos because if you can pair it with her about New Zealand because you got Argentina if you look evening in America and how the Democrats you know if you are a bit behind also some European countries on that which might be better security.

I think it's a really interesting medium because in terms of length of time.

When you speak to political strategies that had a radically different social medias I mean Twitter I think is really Cena vs.

The lowest of those where you put your nasty as a tax and just try and so you know drive the Westminster perhaps.

I be accused of being a member of it mad for a downer Media router for his Facebook's much more targeted and then you can do paid targeting Instagram I think similarly the next team really like I think perhaps.

I think he speaks about a young professionals will see if that pays off in a month's time, but tiktok is there actually probably get the most screen time if you can get it right but reform currently is the party that has the largest following on tiktok about the UK party a few weeks ago my son who's 15 and therefore can't told me about how are you this before Mum and told me about all their policies and I said where have you seen it and he said text organiser.

Are you saying labour easy? He said no I don't they have tiktok accounts that you notice something interesting about.

Unexpected strategy from reform strategy is to comment on all the other parties videos and it's just simple things like reform but also you know people who may or may not be bothered.

So just the average punter also saying about reforming really aggressively commenting on the Labour and cancel the videos to try and save peelview is away.

You know that say that labour have done the hard work of posting a meme.

You know it lands on on the main feed before you Paige and hundreds of people thousands of people view at often people.

Do you read the comments and you know if you can get up there to have quite high you know you're probably doing reasonably well and at least I'm busy as well.

We'll pay off and look at your page and argue with you and get into a debate about reform which is exactly what before month so it's interesting that are also going for the sort of tiktok commenting strategy as well and model.

Katie was mentioning the role of texts formerly Twitter at the general election of the parties using you were on the board, how much has Twitter now.

Xx roll change do you think since Elon Musk bought the company? I would say great deal.

I remembering my interview in 2016 with Jack when I asked him what the proudest bin for him since founding Twitter that's also the founder and one of the co-founders he said oh the Arab Spring has a lot to I'm thinking that but clearly at that point back in 2016 that still a narrative that the secondary storage access may be slightly weaker in the rest of us, but still there that's somehow it had unlock this kind of unrest around the world that people could change the course of political Histories because of it and I don't think that feels the case at all now.

Please just confirmed it with huge red and normally spend in I think the thing I must stop crying.

The company for 18 months but the teams that have been responsible for making sure that the quality of the content is as good as it can be there in my Twitter is much more and more resource-constrained has been decimated the interaction with the civil Society groups that they used to talk to you a lot through to the actual moderators of the content and so on and I think that does matter.

I think it makes the content reliable which makes it less useful which student visa Loops that we've all been talking about and I want to talk to you a little bit more about that, but I do know you haven't spoken that much about your departure from the company and I remember is the battle 240 must by Audrey sign the contract and then he appeared to want to back out of it always remember him tweeting in his arrival carrying the sink but you were on the inside.

What was that period like it was extraordinary.

I think it was kind of once-in-a-lifetime career defining stuff in a way which is a bit.

Thing is a non-executive company because you're not an executive but it felt as though I did personally come across into being a bit of an executive because I was sharing information governance committee when you have to worry about how people come on an ordinary first we were thinking about how to get on On the Borderline of the board and they showing the compensation committee that was how we can look after all the stuff from the rewards and bonuses and oh's on the transaction committee which is the worries about how the sale in the process of selling a company goes through and you know I still pinched myself because I certainly did not join the border Twitter to uphold the law in Delaware which is what we ended up having to do in an extraordinary company.

I found it interesting.

I love the people and hope I could bring up European perspective but actually what it was like was extremely extremely intense and where is he had to buy because it's because the law is the law is the law and I think it's easy to imagine if the boardroom.

Actually that that wasn't the case in other three of us on the transaction committee meeting Stella team of litigators and of contract lawyers to help us and of course the management team, but it was Focus fully clear and when we had our contract.

That's what we had to do because that's what you have to do for the shoulders, so it was so far away from what your normal ball activity is that it is still I'm going to feel I'm still processing it 18 months on and I would just be very wary of ever doing business with your mask because because I don't think he has any high moral values or much integrity ok? He's obviously not entirely different but you've you've hinted in your answer me about you know how to access moderation apparatus has changed when it comes to the US election delete election here how much you worrying about the impact.

RX Twitter could have all actually is it less than a boot medium as it then it was in previous elections already.

It feels as though it is less important Holly because it's really realising the cost base the revenues of cleaning collapse as well and advertisers have left the platform which again means that you don't get the quality link that we've been discussing and you going to the expert general one side and Katie on the other side but now I am really struck by how people underestimate tiktok there petrol in my opinion you it isn't just children and young people it is people of all reading something about I recently that said that one of the biggest sources of quality content that people are learning about AI is on tiktok and that's not just 7-year olds and 13 year olds and 18 year olds 35450.

So I think we under it was apparent that Shift it's just interesting the how quickly that can happen and how its hard as a bit of goodbye to keep across all these different pieces of the puzzle.

Remember how important it awards for journalism and now I feel like it.

I don't look at it nearly as much as I used to stay with us, please because whoever wins a small number of an elected offices in Silicon Valley still do have a huge say in our lives and the interactions of billions of people around the world timandra Harkness at your new book looks at how our anxieties about the power of big might be unfounded that is called technology is not the problem.

So what are you saying? What is the problem? I'm finding might be putting a bit strongly, but I think what I came down to you.

I said more about the Titanic and how data is gathered my profile.

Everything is personalised including putting on messaging but then I just became curious about why that's the technology.

We have and I finish up saying I don't think I don't think we have set ourselves because of personalising technology.

I think we have personalising technology because we're already obsessed with ourselves and into.

Who we are and so if somebody provides a platform for a service on a company that says well everything will be tailored to you Katie and your uniquely discerning taste in whatever politicians biscuits whatever it is.

You're looking at get stuff, then then we will respond to that because it's tapping into our anxiety's which are very particular to now and western societies now.

I think does that mean you're letting the Tech companies off the hook entirely.

I'm going to do think there's a lot of things that they could be doing better and certainly they can be quite honest in the way.

They do tap into those insecurities in ways that are not healthy, but I also think if we go completely over and say everything is the Tech companies fault.

Oh, no, I'm completely helpless the technology may do it then you are actually giving up your human agency in a way which is really harmful and we should hang onto the idea that you actually have to Oasis about what we do and how we used technology.

Ok, maybe maybe it didn't cause a wave of liberation around the world with the Arab Spring but it's certainly we can use it for our own positive purposes we don't have to lie back and just clicking on the menus that were fed and are you saying how we should do that.

Not entirely.

Are you going to come off? We are all ok? See you using it or is it using you you know if you know what you want to be doing if you have an idea about what you would like to do with your life.

How it maybe you'd like to have an impact on the rest of the world.

Maybe maybe you should stop thinking about how you appear.

How how you're coming across on social media or even in the real world however people.

See you and think of it more about what impact.

Would you like to have on the world politically and other then maybe technologies a thing that you can use to do that because it is great for connecting us with each other with other him a thank you particularly that the social media it does allow.

Connect to the other humans in a fantastic and unprecedented way and very little I would say very little meaningful in human, Society has been achieved by one person on their own we do achieved things much better when we do it with other people and clearly regulation is coming in some territories.

What's your sense of weathertech platform should be forced into regulating their content.

I think that's a very difficult area because sometimes it feels as if it's governments who think content should be regulated, but they don't want to be directly accountable for its regulated what's allowed and what's not allowed and so they outsource it to the Tech companies in to know the same breath of saying of these tech companies are Cheryl and irresponsible and so they make the is responsible for deciding what may or may not be sad or seen or heard or read on social media platforms, so it's a kind of arm's-length, censorship and

The way things are going at the moment certain if you look at the things that the online safety act that is going to cause tech companies to lean towards caution and saying when we were to go out because you never know we might end up finding that we've transgress the law so we'll be on the safe side and keep it quiet and said he'll get some other countries where they've been laws against missing or fake news then those have often been used to counter things which just look like descent or different points of hearing so I think it's a very tricky area to to take action in your thoughts on in moderation is censorship that debate I think that we have to do something on both sides.

I think that in Action is not really possible with the scale of the Challenge that we Face around the potential online hamsa mean we were talking before the show to manager about chill.

And I agree with Samantha and that's what she said but I do also think that the scale now and ways of the information reaching particularly young people is so profound and so intense and so impossible for young brains to regulate that we need to do that for them and I think it's too much of a hospital pass to say it's just not possible so one of the things that I feels become sad about the world the UK has been trying to create an online safety bill this become this gargantuan can amended amended amended piece of legislation that started and beeban kidron of bullying campaign was fundamental voice in trying to create some education around children for the agree with what exactly the notes of what you're saying or not.

She was right to say that that is a group perhaps.

We should focus on and I think that's the challenge is becoming so I will die that things become completely pointless when you can actually car that bits of regulation and legislation of the helpful as well.

Yeah, I agree on that date.

It's trying to protect children from the worst times on the internet is a very important and worthwhile thing and and the fact that this is kind of ballooned into a toilet.

I make the internet for everybody.

Is is a crazy thing because you can no longer you can never make the internet safer everybody then you can make the world safe everybody and we should have stayed focused on how can we protect young people accessing things that will be harmful to them changeables struggle currently in terms of what you can get social media in big companies to do and also the impact of government can have been doing that because obviously also from the show about the election it can feel as though some of these big tech Bros if you call a taxi's have you could argue the same pair of not more than some prime minister's do in terms of what they have access to be yet, they.

A lot less scrutiny it would be and you'll see the UK government and online harms and so forth and the struggle it is lots of government don't get what we have to do my but also just working at what is in the Reema and you know getting other countries and bored.

I think it is a bit of a wild west and something were going to be debating for some years to come in the studio.

It's all women five of us, so that time tech Bros I'll be interested and what all of you think about me.

We've heard so much at the time techpro about Silicon Valley Sheffield is that something that you've encountered.

I think you have to unpick it a bit beyond.

Just bro in my experience.

I think it didn't say refutable.

That's the Silicon Valley makeup of Silicon Valley is predominantly male you know it's lots of different immigrants heritage people running different scales of tech companies in silicon Valleys of

Anyone seen an additional dancing my opinion is the networks that exists understand that the very strong network x PayPal is very strong network m and Facebook is a very strong network and I think when you start to see the website website from websites.

Give me then you start to see the real Power that a very small number of people having it's it's not that.

They are all going around chugging beer and ripping up pictures of winning and say never in my lifetime, but it's that there is just a very very particular kind of style and network and hidden wave getting things done getting jobs done firing people finding money and all that stuffing in Owen sound was talking before I was just having a brilliant everything he said me that all the money was talking about on the show so far has basically going to two companies Google and it is astonishing to me the start of the poem talking about the world of 97/98 is astonishing to me that it's sucked up so fast internal Monopoly

And I just find it breathtaking because regulation can come in many forms to Highams Park The regulated but the competition part with been very very very relaxing who targets me.

Let me bring you back in there.

It is a lot of money to be beheaded into people's pockets that need to company pockets really isn't like I said before it's going up.

You know is that 8 million of the parties are two main parties are cross Facebook and Google it the last election in a maybe this goes to 12 to 15.

You know that you know that many times was certainly the smaller parties going to be able to spend having one of the biggest that we've had an operation this week was at the Green Party send an email with one of our tweeting.

It's saying look how much money the party spending on ads.

We need to raise as much and I was like oh my god the whole thing is totally ingested itself at this point what's going on.

So yeah, you know that sense of competition and

Watching each other and keep going up and up in the market going up and up.

Is it is a really important thing and I think you know the end of this election.

I do hope party sit down and say actually this with really Park you know everything into these two companies in terms of are campaigning and think about how to do it better to bring you back in from Bloomberg previously Business Insider you have covered tech for a long time when it comes to this idea of the Tech browse all the Brow culture.

Is it changing of you noticed a change not really? I don't keep it.

It's perhaps.

I mean.

I think where I would potentially routers you know with my ancient history of covering is there was a period earlier in these companies lives you know I'm primarily thinking of Facebook no matter but Google you know particularly the online online performers wear.

All costs particularly after these companies were in the run-up to you and then immediately after they went public was the driving Factor so really any other metric didn't matter except for growth so all Facebook really had to do was to keep adding using the same for Google just grow get these users you know by any means possible that coincided with the world at that time in the middles not really having thought that much about regulation and so we've ended up in the wild where it's normal that you 13-year olds have accounts on these platforms and missiles derives from this.

We must reach new audiences both in terms of age and location but actually you know I think it would be a valid to the point about child protection to say should we raise my age? So why do why do they need to be 13-year olds on Facebook do they need that they are equipped to deal with what they say on these platforms.

So you know I think we're dealing with lots.

Films that began at a time of extreme growth of these companies and in a really more than a decade on trying to you know retrospectively fit a regulatory framework to manage that grow in the UK when it comes to take a the Silicon Valley in terms of who's going into it.

Is it less male? Why why I don't know why is it so I don't like the term blue park that in place to me another set of behaviour.

I mean I think Woods maybe that's true, but I feel more confident saying we know statistics are around the people that are in a to know their gender of the nationality their ethnic background whatever the different metrics are so it's getting worse you know soon as right and I think the most pressing charts of a receipt with something Mackenzie that's what about five six years ago and it said no time to gender parity across various metrics and have been kind of vain person.

They look at things that affected me business politics and tech.

I think it's a week gender parity.

I think it's about 30 to 40 years business.

I can't remember exactly and then take never because it's going backwards and again.

Why is it going because I think it becomes self-reinforcing issue where you hide people that you trust because they like you even if it's not intentionally some so it's of this reinforcing cycle.

I think it then means that you don't have the examples of head of you.

So people don't go into it, but it's not one reason.

It is thousands of reasons across a lifetime.

I think if I said one thing more consistently to vs.

In the last 25 years than anything else.

It's that there is no silver bullet you have to do the hard work and working out why your medication you have to look at the way you write job adverts have to look at the way of praise your stuff you have to look at the way that you have a child care the flexibility at work.

You have done your bonus structure have to look at all the things and only then.

Make a change and my only other anxiety just doesn't think in the world now.

You're looking at you know the future of the power and the money and the technology landscape in the next 20 years is like in the morning in deep text off where we know also.

There's a huge challenge around gender diversity because of the history of why women going to computacenter.

What's the best depressing timandra Harkness going to bring your interview got any light to shut at this point in the UK is different at all what I mean anything.

I've noticed is that if you because I do love live events and panels and son if you have a banner which is I have started the company.

I am I am making such as tech products.

They tend to school Hemel email if you have a panel which is about here are some of the ethical and societal issues around technology it might as well.

Just HQ heavily female and so I do think maybe.

Is there a problem here where people who actually want to talk about the interface with society or the ethical issues and tend to be female get pushed out of the actual companies and that may be if there was a if there was a slightly wider organic pool of people who are making star fibre think about the effects is going to have people think about the uses in a slightly more long-sighted way, but if you get all those people in the same company maybe we would end up with a slightly more mixed demographic but then you will say what you are.

We think about mix perspective because when you said lot of people come out of Stamford to come out the other things does a very particular way of seeing the world that comes out of I've been to Stamford I've done PJ frogs courses in the how to put together psychology and technology and grab people with my app and that is the way of thinking behind a lot of the technology that comes out of

We managed to get to almost the end of the program without with barely a mention of Aila multidimensional bit but just Katy balls to bring you back in there was all this fear around the election about deepfake say I depressed anything so far or nothing too dramatic but your how do you think I might impact their selection is an interesting that there is a video on social media which was an AI Rishi Sunak is going for a zero strategy know someone has party.

Do you say he was going through zero strategy, but Rishi Sunak himself and not say or at least not yet, but I think that wasn't coming from there any official party.

They did she had it could be used I think there's an interesting point witches.

There's lots about the dangers of AI there's also opportunities in terms of leaders different languages.

Can you use it actually reach more audiences? That isn't as we are first AI election there.

It's still seem to be seen that goes and shoulders briefly about 10 seconds your assessment of

US election I to be honest I think the democracy stuff is a little bit over blowing the thing that concerns me is actually the weights being you know used often against women and if I'm if I'm really clear tangible Hamza that concerns me more immediately than the way it might be used to study lakes and exactly absolutely thank you so much for the time.

Thank you so much you all for coming on the programme.

I'm not gonna have time to know me well sadly because we really have run out of time but I want to just thank you all for coming on and thank you to everyone for listening.

Thanks for your company immediately goodbye from BBC Radio 4 Britain's biggest paranormal.

Podcast is going on a road trip.

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