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Read this: Political podcasts - who's listening?

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Political podcasts - who's listening?…

You don't need us to tell you there's a general election coming.

So what does it mean for you my contacts.

We talk directly to the people you want to hear from you.

I would help from some of the best BBC journalists will untangle the stories that matter to you Adam Fleming Chris Mason and Paddy O'Connell for our Daily Podcast BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week with the election getting close to join by some of the biggest hitters in the news podcast were here without Lewis Goodall from the newsagents also Adam Fleming from used cars with Davidson from electoral dysfunction Tony Pastore from goldhanger which makes the rest is politics and Nick Hilton

The podcast production company also going to get into what's happening in the Washington Post because the CEO and publisher is Will Lewis form editor of The Telegraph and he is under a lot of pressure will explain is matters well Beyond The Newsroom of the Washington Post first straight into podcast and the role they have the selection and has a quote to start off.

It's from an annual report on digital news from The Voice's Institute for the study of journalism.

It came out on Monday and describes news podcasting as a bright spot for publishers which attracts younger well-educated listeners given that so many bright spots for many news organisations at the moment.

That is something to hold onto and I wanted to open up to everyone first at Lewis you're here you covered many and election over your very young life to this one.

To my One Direction but now that I think that this is this is without doubt the first real podcast election.

I think really in the sense that there are so now so many providers so many offering really really top class analysis of the election not just not just analysis as well as I've been travelling around the countries in space at the start of the campaign reporting and I think that is also the kind of knew something newsagents.

We try and do which is own stuff not just commenting and talking about whatever happened to happen in the campaign or other people's journalism own journalism.

Nothing as a really exciting part probably the next frontier radio of podcasting not just for the election, but in general as well.

Let me bring you.

Could you ever imagine when you set up your company that you're going to be Albert Hall it isn't just You Know Podcast says it's also taking them out around the country.

Yes, I think I didn't have any idea that would happen though.

I do think there's something very intimate about listen to podcast a bit like radio where people have their headphones on there could be saying that walking the dog and very close to the people in there.

Is they develop a relationship with the with the people I listen to on a regular basis and we find when we do live events a lot of it comes up to a house and treats them like friends.

Are they already know them and we have to sort of reminder for telling or host that you know when to expect this and that is just one of those quirky nature of the way you listen to the shows and Adam Fleming you have such as order close relationship.

I think with a lot of the newscast audience is what what kind of things do people does it feel very different from your past that the BBC just in terms of that interaction.


I went to the Royal Vauxhall Tavern the other night therefore Madonna night and there is some news cast van there who changed their plans because they thought the idea.

Madonna night in a gay club is more fun than what we had plans with providing public service and all sorts of directions for Alice and what some Sting from from me and Chris Mason who I do news Cast Away most days and who I could've been on my podcast in Germany where is that? It was a natural extension of what you were doing.

We always approach to R&D jobs, Spondon store the Brussels correspondent or whatever radio show your working on as just having a conversation with the listener and being a little bit more relaxed and some of our and older colleagues and just basically can't bring myself as our own experience on to the airways and that is what we then translated into brexitcast.

It was the question anyway and I had it at the time the buses thought we are a little bit a bit quirky a little bit niche not to be taking completely.

I think I think I'm not here and you are my hair and I think that means nobody's here.

I'm sorry about that will try and hopefully hopefully early BBC technology.

You're not in this building in another BBC building.

It is causing problems.

Why don't we get you back in a second but that's exactly amazing isn't it was always problematic.

I see that exciting Ruth Davidson you've got your employer cost of calls with better.

It being usually just said it but these are in a sensemaking politicians into celebrities in a way.

I think my background does is sort of gamekeeper turned poacher turned gamekeeper again because I spent 10 years as a journalist before the politician mostly and speech radio mostly news and current affairs some Polish as well and then change sides and became an electrical system for 10-years and and now I'm doing up podcast and I think I had always seen the media landscape changed.

We saw the decline of newspapers on import of newspapers that every consecutive election from my love.

I'm not sure I was a really confident and what was replacing it.

Obviously social video at the same time rose was doing a different job and I thought possibly because of the changing the way we communicated in politics.

They actually these long form interviews these kind of David Frost tomorrow type things we go on forever and it was going to you know these kind of music Paxman s like the batter a politician and we'll have to have answers and boards at st.

Just rather than a kind of thoughtful and what sort of takeaways right back around the circle again and and what I think people appreciate about podcast is it the relaxed that they're not always confrontational personality and you pick the one that suits you and because the Explorer ideas and they can be thoughtful and he can bring analysis in a way that you know what a 3-minute kind of music.

Breakfast radio show might not be able to do the maybe more Revealing the stories in newspapers or even though I love talk radio is what I drop.

The more revealing possibly even that good having you on the media show Lewis Goodall Tony pastor Adam Fleming to nikhil pants here as well as we go through the next few minutes.

We can speak to each of you about particular experience with podcasting as well as I'm packing some of the broader issues and Tony let's go back to you because you founded goalhanger with Gary Lineker a few years back you now make the number of pods is politics represent a man dressed as football rest of money and the empire podcast I just wondering when you go back to when you founded the company with Gary Lineker what was your goal well frankly it was to be a TV production company specialising in sport so I mean it's a very strange journey with taken about 2019 we start.

Podcasting and it's got an amazing actually forecasting.

It's the first time.

I've worked in the media where we are didn't need a commissioner.

We didn't have to persuade somebody of the merits of the day we didn't have to persuade concert to give us budget to make something we could just do it ourselves and of course there a dangerous with that because there's no intermediary checking that our ideas are nonsense but at the same time if we have an idea that we really like we can back it and and take risks ourselves only IP these things about we were we take a rest.

We put show that they're only see if we can grow an audience IP being intellectual property and I just wondered was there a moment when you thought ok.

Goodness cos I'm going to become our central thing.

They are going to become the thing that that our company is known for more than anything else.

Yes, there is a very distinct moment and that was the rest is history.

Tom Holland Dominic Sandbrook which he started 2 years ago it's suddenly exploded in popularity.

It was a really remarkable breakthrough it suddenly went from being a middle-aged white guys chatting about college.

Just suddenly having a massive massive appeal.

I can't fully explain that to you to ask you.

Did you work out what happened? We do a few things that really helped we change the nature of the content it started out rather different anyone of you for giving you can try stuff you can experiment you can change format you can adjust the length discovered was people didn't want lots and lots of historiography.

They didn't want a super intellectual approach to the narrative what they really wanted storytelling.

They wanted us to take them on board the Titanic and to tell us a story of the people who went down on the ship that night they wanted us to break that story down by inhibiting the

Text of the industrial race between Britain and Germany American money arriving in the UK in a the challenges of the dockyards in Northern Ireland with religious changes, so you have that idea and you could see your History podcast being a success, but then you turn to politics with the rest is politics.

Did you just try and take what you learn from that initial success with the rest is history and apply it to the new product.

Yes, we did I mean but the real estate of learning the first witches but you have to get the chemistry between the two host absolutely right.

It's the single most important thing so we we felt especially politics.

It was an awful.

Lot of shouting politics around and let you know social media become quite unpleasant as you say the the interviews often on TV at short form that they jumping.

With very challenging questions and we we thought you know let's let's let it breathe.

Let's have long before let's that mean Alastair Campbell came up with the line.

Let's disagree agreeably that you might not agree with what he says Allison says but we're not going to start shouting and that we're going to listen to the other person's thoughts and and and considered them and if we don't agree with move on and we talk about something else so we found with a tone of voice that the public really appreciated.

That's what I keep telling us.


He is very popular and advanced the content.

Let me ask you about some of the organization, but the content for example.

What's the the business model here.

How did how's goalhanger make money from the podcast and how do you renew rate the presenters so tell me the business model is traditional.

It's an appetizer bonding model has two forms of advertising on a podcast one is what you would understand by a spot.

Just a random 30 s after with appear in the shower and would suggest you drink a certain brand of beer or or soft drinks and then there is something called the house read that is when the actual presenter of the shower, but the house of the Show in Dorset is something specific.

So you know I won't I won't make any sense from the BBC Travel brands brands and the beauty of that is that the endorsement by the host and an angry reserve the right to decline to do any of those we wish we did not the case by case basis, but four times as valuable as as as a regulation spot-on, and they have been lots of figures band around about how much money the people involved in your very successful podcast might be making are you able to give her a guide to how this might work because the the reporting is there getting a lot more than more traditional way of paying a host on a fixed fee per episode nervous and telling you this I don't want.

Paying are very handsome one of the things you're doing because of you did last year that they got a million-pound note that significant which means that if the part does really well by the way my apologies.

I'm actually in Spotify Beach location in the music for the concert this coming on later tonight.

I will have basically you come here when you meet everybody is the only way it's 3 days every year you know everybody need to meet with definitely be in the same place.

Rather be but I do think it probably important to put this all them to contact it is but just before we do that.

Let me just ask you about one other report the potentially go hangover is being looked at by Jefferson the American who heads up a fun.

That's investing in media.

Is there any truth in that absolutely not at all complete have no idea what I've never never spoke to him.

I don't know where it's a website.

They were the ones also looking with Telegraph which hasn't happened either.

So there we go but it is worth bringing in hills and everybody just to give us some of the context for these news podcast nephew well, because I know you were previously broadcast editor of The Spectator but now you are a big bulker specialist Maidenhead yourself, but the stats are quite Mercury aren't there in terms of your how many people are actually.

What what what what are the figures and what a good number for a podcast the degree of transparency which Tony answer the question about that that will be industry is like for the stats.

So I think that we generally say that any podcasts widow the over 20000 listeners per episode can start to wash his face but basically there's no obvious routes to commercialization certainly not through the barriers agency advertisers to Princesshay can't believe they partners with goalhanger certainly they won't enter a podcast less than that it doesn't work for them.

So you are the little bespoke to yours and we do a lot of that or you go for a quantity and that kind of the model the girl has gone for and and and and the same with newsagents and and I guess electoral dysfunction and we only get the best hear the best and biggest brightest Talents on the on the media show and lots of these podcast.

Not listening to Estonia in the top 2, I just had a look at footballer and the message was it anyway.

They're all in the top-10 newsagents in sort out all about electric.

Just watching really well.

I think goalhanger podcast £700 that sounds like a if that's what I like about the money because it's just money.

I don't feel like I should say that on the 38 million downloads record the politics is about 10 million downloads of the rest is history 12 million months football and entertainment do about 4 million each and you can work the money out relatively easy because it's it's all it's all done on it.

I think of the CPM which is a cost which I discovered having studied at school so another word you get paid by the number.

Thousands of people you get paid to setup for every 1000 people in here and so actually you know with a little bit of working out you can get you.

Can you can do them as relatively easily wrestlers politics is about 2000 listeners and episode with another course of a million watching on YouTube so it has almost mythical status among certain circle ready way is top of the charts all of that Nick do you think there's any one out there who could unseat that position I mean that's the crème.

De la crème guest.

I would estimate in a few years ago.

There's probably a UK political podcast market of about a million people who would realistic and listen to podcast factory in Aintree with the technology factory in the degree of political nerdiness.

You need to have an hour a week of political programme.

I would have thought that was pretty hard limit at about a million so I mean what

700000 YouTube stuff to another side 700008 may not be active listening number but not as a huge number of downloads and I think I would really strong the entire length of UK politics changes Adam let's bring you in from used cars because we with focusing on politics, but news cars doesn't just do politics you do a whole array of subjects.

Do you find the politics performed better that your audience wants as much politics as you will give it or actually it comes to you for the the broader editorial range that you offer I mean when used car centre get back to you.

Thanks to BBC technology and Wear Newcastle has been best historical as when there's been a big kind of story that everyone could invest in good at well.

That was brexit in the early days of our podcasting journey with that was coronavirus when we went daily whether it was the Boris Johnson partygate Liz truss error or whether it's

Relax my Focus it's not so much that politics is can have our bread and butter it's that big metal stories that have a big matter narrative work really well for a Daily Podcast shooting in the latest instalment of of the drama thing that really drives people to us is big news events.

We see a big Spike and listeners when there's loads of people want to know more about it.

It's great the BBC to do marketing campaign last year.

Where are faces are on billboards underground stations and and train lines and that's the work so I listen to go up a bit the thing that really bright is the UK's constitutional status and I'm curious Adam when he comes behind a program or a podcast and starts buying advertising.

It's normally got a quite clear strategy behind that is newscast aimed at a particular type of listening.

Are you?

4 people from a particular part of the UK or is it something you're making a podcast for everyone and programs that worked on but the reason we do we do podcast the BBC is because of the licence fee we've got to be for everyone and we've got to be in the places where people to get their contact on the BBC so that's that's why we're in the podcast in space because licence fee payers are there two in terms of working out whose list name.

I think maybe half an hour people who have some stop listening to the additional news by the because they find it doesn't work for them or it's to measurable or actually is his own at inconvenient times and maybe 10:00 at night and the best time for them to listen to the news, then the other half of the people who are are like all the plugs into the news all day and so we are always trying to sort that balance between ok.

How can we have a conversation is valuable to somebody who hasn't followed the news all day.

So how can we be having a conversation to add an extra layer of analysis or value to people who know exactly what we were lucky that the increased and I talked about the news seems to work from football strips of people now the newsagents by global also LBC presenter disclosure also next colleague of mine.

We work together exactly back in new broadcasting house once again.

You know that so I mean Adam was talking about billboards.

I remember when you loved that show suddenly are the colleague Emily maitlis.

Still your colleague Jon Sopel BBC people on those billboard everywhere as well as I could tell that Cross London anyway, whatever you drive into the airport practically you were but in terms of what you're doing differently you're free BBC ex-bbc people who are doing something different outside the BBC how would you capitalise it is different because of the different medium and we've had to sort of find out.

Doing that and and and do in German is a minute in a medium that none of us are primarily operated in a different character eyes.

I wouldn't say that what we're doing is that mentally different to that we wanted to be something out for my point of view which is in a fundamentally in my heart heart Emma reporter on a doogee Amazon and tell stories and what fantastic actually I found about newsagents I suppose in a way I like to think this is Pat's where is a stinky of space that we occupy in terms of Person of news broadcasting market in Britain which is that as I said at the very beginning.

We are doing our own original journalism and reporting.

I have found that actually of all that mean.

I've done your TV radio and podcasting the great great thing about reporting and end times of podcast is you have space and you have time and you have text you you never need to say minion news now.

Ok Tina you know when we used to do you know you'll be working on something for weeks and weeks and weeks.

You know frustration something happens.

Two says sorry this down by two or 3 minutes to do that we can just hold it and just do it another day or we can make it give it the full time when I came back from just before the general election do the peace into the sea in Georgia tried telling the story about why that matters my UK audience you should care about we gave it a 45-50 minutes on Friday things that I've done my career and you can do that in terms of building the texture in the voices in a way that actually I think it is uni catch me and you clearly have a very loyal audience audience.

It's come to this podcast and loves This podcast you've talked about forecasting the future of news.

Why do you say that about some of the things? I think I'm in an era where we know what is happening to TV which I still continue to love and in so many ways that says it's continues to be at my heart.

We are aware of what the demographics are and we also where are the demographics of the podcast?

Older people watching all the people watching news and frankly any chance of us getting smaller for a self-evident reason we also in terms of podcasting.

What is the demographic say one thing? I'd be most surprised that and I know Joanna Lumley exactly the same way is the kind of recognition that you get from younger, Alderton how old is on on newsagents.

I would say is roughly maybe just about half of what it would have been on saying NewsNow and said the recognition you get from younger people students and someone who have started to even say you can't say this is my main new source now.

That is really gratifying to note of what you're doing is not just something that your son of joining our each and every day is Sunday supplement other news the people have got you got a thing actually is this the main you saw two people hearing that day and how should we calibrate the result and you clearly the BBC is known as a public service broadcaster.

You said the newsagents is also doing Public Service Broadcasting I think you said you spent less time stressing about every single syllable.

And so on in a way, that's a bit unreasonable.

What did you mean by that? I would absolutely probably Service Broadcasting the reasons that have described and we're not doing it on podcast as we doing it on video film YouTube and what I meant by that was is ok.

See you know you'll know this at the BBC which is a fantastic institution as fantastic journalism sometimes that journalism can be encumbered or at least it wasn't my Xperia not by actually what were substantive considerations around impartiality actually you know thinking is this impossible piece of journalism very often they got to the point particularly when I was here as well height of the Johnson years ago when we were trying to manage what potentially could be perceptions of impartiality or critiques of impartiality that by their very definition were unfair that we would come from potentially hostile actors who started the BBC why are you saying that unfair unfair in the sense that you knew that it was going to become.

Replace in itself with a high you they were hostile like they weren't actually serious about whether or not they thought this was disappointed piece of journalism.

They seem to be having a generous at the BBC now my love.

You always was BBC reception spend too much time thinking about that.

I'm trying to manage the reception.

I would say that what we're trying to do when I think that is is substantive impartiality.

I when you get to the end of a piece.

Can you and think that is fair that's rigorous, and it was impossible not about whether someone might perceive it to have been in partial.

You got to ask you have your own metrics and you're only see what you think is a fair and balanced piece of journalism not from WhatsApp potential hostile acting like things but listen to the newsagents might make the case which is excuse left.

Does it in your mind? I don't think it's good left.

I think it's news there are look I'm in there.

What what there? Is is the we are not as I said in the PC just close it we're not spending all day thinking about you know will every.

Will every word necessary if someone complains about it in a way that you wouldn't be because it's a bit funny by the by the licence fee.

We're not as concerned about that.

I think over the long-term what we think about this in terms of how we cover politics and how we covering the visual politicians.

We have a politician come in are we being as rigorous with someone who's in the Labour Party in the Conservative Party and if there is going to be late because there is going to be according to the polls my test in my metre come back to me in 6-months and see how people and listeners and how those politicians labour Force just thinking about the thing about us because when they are powerful well there.

It was there and control we need to be as rigorous as discipline with them as we would be the Conservative Party and I have every confidence that we will Davidson into the conversation to Louis describe you tell me if I'm being fairhill.

Who is that you're still wanting to be impossible, but the way you're going about it is slightly different to how you would have gone about it.

So when you're working in within a podcast that you are having different processes applying slightly different criteria to what you might have done when you were a journalist prior to when you were a politician depending on work for it is always kind of Bean variances on a theme the ideas that you want to have fairness know you know the BBC goes about that in a different way from when I work for time radio for example when I work for LBC in terms of the podcast will not news reporters, so we have the political editor of Sky Bet we have a current well.

She's a candidate at the moment, but up until his apartment with a labour MP Jess Phillips and we have myself is a conservative that sits in the House of Lords of the former MSP member of Scottish Parliament so we all took from our own experience and those experiences are varied I think in terms of making sure that we have balance.

We're not in it to score a point of each other with with Beth is the referee that.

It's a boat trying to not assume knowledge of audience, but it's about trying to explain what happens because both Jess and I have been in the room for a lots of decision, so we know how sorts of decisions get made so we can talk about what is a current piece of news for examples of what's happening that week or that day, but we can also believe that back someone thought we know but also however these similar pieces and you've been structured.

What's happened behind the scenes.

What is it like when you're creating a manifesto? What is it like when a campaign falls apart? What is it like when you happy so so it's rather like Louis it is a different set of Rules because it's a different medium however, you know we are choosing over this period the election to go back out of Commons even the podcast don't currently operate under the guys are responsible broadcaster at want to make sure there is doing gold standard in terms of how you doing.

I think that.

And that's about having fairness not just in terms of the weird people are represented and how much space to get so that the date of the story and I wonder if now that you're involved in this after the you would make a podcast would sky review the balance within your discussions in the way that they might review a news program that they would make all that they're not they're not scrutinising the discussions that you're having in that way and by the way, I'm not suggesting that they should we do it so we are very chatting all the time so we probably record about an hour and a half 2-hours and I get home till about 45 minutes and we have a predator.

I'm not part of the editorial team so I'm a paper play.

I have a Sophie I come in.

We talk about it.

I help with a prick.

I have European affairs stop recording I'll see that button or how to do that, but I personally I'm making a story of decisions and Jess is the same in our lunch episode was just after or second one with just after the boy election that George Galloway one and as we all know anybody ever worked in like had a lawyer because because it's not like because it's recorded because you know there is a higher standard that your help to that is correct, but that doesn't mean in any way that you said and actually to be honest.

I can't find the stuff we go off at a tangent is the most interesting stuff and it's certainly in terms of the listener response has been the most interesting most common the most feedback the most questions and voicemails and voice notes and all the rest of it, so we were worried that they might not be space for us because we're a New Kid On The Block

So horses that we found audience and that is growing week on week and then we had overbooking downloading and just a few weeks.

You're doing alright and asked you rather than a new audience.

I think people into US also listen to other political podcast to I'm sure that's I'm sure that's definitely the case.

I think people who are keen news podcast consumers definitely tend to consume.

Let me ask you though, because I'm sure you're aware when the podcast launch that it was immediately noted that it featured three women which made your podcast quite different to a lot of the most popular podcast the political podcast space you aware of that.

I think everybody walk up about November there was a big thing online but have all the politics podcast podcast and they're all either dominated by or entirety men so in terms of water as I have three approaches from three different broadcast.

To do a new all women politics podcast there was clearly if people wanted to do it, but it also came with its own pressure.

So if we know weird a big platform like Sky News that was making be launched in the right way you we had a big hitters like Bethany and Jess Phillips on there if we have failed I personally but the pressure that we haven't found an audience that would probably have put back women women only political podcast in for 5-years.

Could have they could you do it? They're not clean it doesn't warrant for it was pressure in that but I hope we found is we're not even to just talk to women about politics.

We just to be women who have huge experience in the world politics that want to share that experience know it might have a slightly different sound but I don't think that we are Luffy and anyway.

I don't think where you know.

I think we've done as we picked an interesting background so expeditions is not all current politicians.

It's not all journalist.

It's a mix of each and that gives.

Sweet like to pick that wouldn't help them so I remember very recently valuers near Reading the rise of Daisy Goodwin saying she's sick of middle-aged man's playing on Chromecast dad casting is there an issue appears to be why why do you think it is my last Tony this as well? Why are so many his podcasts a male have your indeed and I'll email you only have to look at the the composition of the lobby historically to understand that there are more male journalist happened at the demographics of podcasting early on were heavily skewed towards young men men in their 30s it also happens that consumption of political media has always been dominated in Perception and also daytime.

I'm sure it's shifting by meant there was a extent to which it was going to facilitating that the existing demographics.

I think that.

Tony cost the rest is history which is sort of the text for all kind of the newsagents on exist without you know.

I think it's certainly doesn't exist now the recipe.

I think they were fishing from a pool of predominantly male exploitation there are far more mailx politicians currently and that desire to be like this if Bruce political analysts in in the sea life.

Is it is I think I'm being dominated by Madness is harder as a producer.

It's harder to book women guests on politics a myriad of reasons your on air pairings.

Are you now have the rest of them to tame a man and a woman and how do you create that chemistry in and how much are you worried about the fact that some of your politics podcast email well, but not anymore actually the last 445 of all had a female host Anita Anand on Empire Steph McGovern on the rest of money.

In our latest iteration vs.

Policy thinking about it because potential you were a little worried that you've started off in a male way, or is that on that that's possibly true? Yes, I mean we do this.

Is is that we start with one host you work out we went with first and then we have a very in-depth conversation with them about who they want to as a co-host.

We took a shortest or longest introduced into a shortlist and it just so happens that I mean.

I'll tell you that you have the rest is history came about example station Tom Holland I really wanted to do historians that have different specialisms Tom's obviously in the ancient world and early Christianity we wanted somebody super modern historian round the houses for weeks trying to work it out and in the end.

I said to him who when you go along to conferences and lectures and not done historical things who do you always try and sit next to go to the gym?

Always Dominic Sandbrook but that's what we want on are we want the two of you together and and and likewise I said to Alastair Campbell we want you to do this with the Conservatives somebody writes centre.

You know you're busy gave me a can of raise an eyebrow and and and and and I tell you how it came about Aleister then asked his Instagram followers who they preferred Rory one that Paul bymiles.

That's the question.

I'm always always grows back in three weeks.

I really would have left it on that one.

I'm interested interested to ask Adam and Louis how global and the BBC go about measuring chemistry or calculating chemistry now in its original iteration.

Cast was Katya Adler Laura kuenssberg you adam and Chris Mason with that just something you went for or is there a process to pull the four of you together with everything listen to this discussion was actually the original which was brexitcast was completely gender balance male and female and not just that I want the Originals new superhit podcast not only that but it became asleep here when Laura and cat should go on doors because of me Chris for doing it was just like this little puppy that we did a couple of days that no, it's completely Completely organic, which is quite unusual on the BBC because it's quite structured organisation but we were super lucky that we got to just be where I say then Laura and catch a joint which give us more of a profile and even more great Intel to put on the podcast and then it just grow and we try to keep that kind of slightly gorilla guns.

Doing things and all bosses.

Let's do that thankfully, so that evolved organically what about you lose most global was talking to the three of you to Jon Sopel Emily maitlis, and they knew how you were on there because they've seen you on it and heard you gone out yet and obviously went first and then they approached me.

So yeah.

I'm alright.

They would have been alright.

I mean no I mean I mean I mean I knew each other really well already.

Obviously I didn't know John at all, but yeah, I agree before we done any work at all.

Just hate each other or no piloting before the no not before we agreed it was just sort of assumed that it would be one of the great things about some things.

I've enjoyed about most as we all know like broadcast journalism in particular TV one of the candy so many rules for a proper reason.

The fun thing about newsagents has been to work on what is basically startup where there are no rules and you can just alright your own you write your own program.

You can write down agenda.

I think we will find that very liberating.

It's a lot of fun.

How did you find Davidson when sky were talking to you about the possible line-ups on the podcast you're doing with them? Did they want to test out how you all sounded before they jumped in and it just so happened that we like each other and Beth and Jeff's know each other a little bit because best in the lobby in and Jess is also prominent in The Commons best in the last 10 years.

I done a couple of down the lines.

Jess identified myself for well known for radio shows back in the day with always kind of got that again.

I probably better to three times.

So what we did was we sat down and worked out what we wanted it to be the three of us how we wanted it to go with a couple of pilots to see what it what kind of sound like.

And to see how many words we could get away with that how many times Jessica reference her lady parts, but she does with frequent regularity in the most of sound in ways that we never think is going to happen, but yeah, I mean I think why we work.

It's because it's not because we like each other because I love it doesn't necessarily make your radiator rugby podcasting but it's because we actually want to listen to what I want to hear how it works the Labour Party I want to know what best does behind-the-scenes because you know I'm all the word works in journalism and never actually been a lobby journalists in London and actually couriers being Scotland not London or popped up and down.

So what should I learn out of a podcast and best loans and Jess glynne arms and and the fact that were saying things that we want to hear the whole translate an older people want to hear them to an atom to bring you back in with that used cars a reference brexit cast which was its original iteration.

Did you ever think it was going to become your job?

Water mention that you also have a UK election podcast at the moment understand the UK election pilots on Radio 4.

So, what did you think when you started the future? I just thought it was going to be a fun supplement can do at the end of my day and we all agreed we were doing brexitcast at the psychological benefits of be able to run around all day filling up your organising over.

What story was then told meeting up with your friends at the end of the night.

They're talking about it was just was just a great way to wipe down at the end of the day.

We realise that would become like a big part.

I think what's the what amazes me is just how much do BBC I know investing in News cast as a thing so what is that mean? We're going 7-days a week as a podcast I was Laurel and Hardy at weekends.

We're on BBC One on Thursday night after Question Time and loads and loads of people tuned into that we're going to be a part of election night on BBC One on 4th of July when.

Close the hosting a big watch party in the radio theatre at Broadcasting House where 150 people are going to come and just watch the election results pouring with us and that will be part of the BBC One tonight programme podcast out of it and when you think about what we were talking about earlier about the perhaps £1000000 a year that various podcast as in the goal Hangouts table earning.

Do you do my podcast in the wrong place because I love doing it BBC because I get to be part of that huge big extended BBC family we would have a podcast if we couldn't call up are mates and I get them to come on and talk about what they've been doing that day.

What do you think about the BBC podcast? What do you think about that? This is a famous Tony's not happy about I know that this is to explain this Is On podcast BBC Studios that go outside the iPlayer all you know where else you might get outside.

Happy about it.

I mean I totally understand what she wants to do it podcast in the UK is really very immature.

It's very young.

It's a 70 million-pound business in the UK last year of a 3 billion dollar spent on podcasting in America Germany's much bigger than the UK and the BBC would be stepping into into our world which is still nascent in many ways and still only and and you know the simply better than last year example the BBC had enough of audio downloads to have 1.9 billion.

We are we are a large independent and we are about 6 times smaller so you know if they need to step in for example and take 10 million lb of the advertising revenue available about 70 million that would be 50% of all available in come to the Independent sector which is built this this world in the UK and broadcasting and would actually count as 0.2% of the licence, please so maybe a tiny town.

Open the BBC but we have a really very serious effect on the on the on the young podcasting production community in UK smaller companies that really struggle to get by by the way home.

Please don't make money podcasting.

It's very challenging business to make money in perspective in March the BBC said the plan would generate more revenue to support the BBC licence fee payers our suppliers and rights holders now.

Just bring it back to politics.

They will be passing on BBC's position on this and Nick more broadly.

Let's come back to the political Dimension of our discussion.

We are clearly focusing on a range of incredibly popular podcast but is it possible to overstate actually the influence of of political podcast given that their download numbers in many cases will still be smaller than as Louis was.

Traditional viewing figures or traditional listening figures depends on what you mean by influence of you're talking about influence on a general election podcast don't have any influence of course not better, but they can still influence the narrative and they can still create this this space for long-form interviews that generates headlines and you know and then and then feeding to traditional Media presence early this week.

I had on my podcast Jeremy Paxman interview in where's freezing whilst eating a scotch egg and that will be a springboard for the Labour Party to announce a bunch of a bunch of policy on your hand and that's going to be the way that he's an ecosystem mainly in terms of like the actual space for analysis.

It's unfortunately serving a very well serve side of political junkie is generally you speak to the parties all the Time by Imagine through the selection how much do they care about podcast I think the Sevilla Sevilla politicians and the saviour political definitely do.

There's no doubt that there is a sort of cohort of sight more sort of dinosaur operators.

I can feel that way if that's the thing who are you know you don't use it and I just think it's sort of thing or out of the way that sunnyd operators politicians.

I think who can wanna get a make a name for themselves.

I mean Friday newsagents long time long form interview and they're right.

This is a butt for politicians who have some personality to show and have something to say because I've got the time and I can express themselves.

How they want to express himself, so you know I think this is this is the first election where where broadcasting has been so dominant in the sense that there are so many potential shows that's only gonna grow and for the next election after this.

It's going to be even more powerful than it is now and all the podcast.

We've mentioned during this programme have featured at different points very very high profile politicians as they said you would imagine that's going to carry on as you're going to stay with us.

How do I know you need to go? Thank you very much indeed does Adam Fleming from newscast thanks, also to Ruth Davidson Anthony Hilton from Polo but next on the media, so we can talk about the Washington Post because as there is an awful lot of pressure on its CEO and publisher so will Lewis former editor of The Telegraph now.

This is a story that raises a whole raft of issues.

Not just about the future of the Washington Post which remember newspaper with broke Watergate has a celebrated history now owned by Jeff bezos and not just this about the future of the post, but it raises questions about how news organisations are structured journalism ethics and about the differences between us and UK journalism and we're going to get some help on this story from Vivian Sheila executive director of aspen digital at the Aspen Institute also director of the transport Jones The Guardian and a former CEO of national Public Radio Vivian great to have you back on the on the media showed and take us from the start here.

When did will luas come into the Washington Post

Thanks, it's nice to be here.

Thanks for having me back as I will know it was brought on as the new CEO of the Washington Post about 6 months ago and he did according to focus on the inside.

He did everything during the first 6-months pretty much exactly right.

He spent time getting to know the place.

He met folks.

He did this love which is actually read their stories and send them notes about what he likes.

So he had a lot of trust in the institution institution that as it turns out with this sort of hemorrhaging hemorrhaging money and he had Amanda to turn it around and then about a few weeks ago and he took a number of actions that he said were necessary in order to put the washing in the post on the right footing but that.

Odyssey turn The Newsroom against him first he he created a new structures that turned up for the Washington Post for which right now is divided into a main news the opinion section which is separate is often the case in US newspapers.

He just said he was going to create a third Newsround which was going to be really that features in social media you fire at Sally buzbee.

Who was the editor-in-chief until again a few weeks ago after she turned down the job of being innovative 3rd Newsround and he installed 1 temporary and permanent editor of The temporary editor was Matt Murray who is absolute very well like former editor of The Wall Street Journal and that's the temperature in a permanent.

It'll come in Action day.

Is this meeting colleague from the UK UK Robert winner and that's when everything started to unravel and one of the

Belle's hair which has got so much attention inside the Washington Post an outside is the there is an allegation which will Lewis denies that he behaved inappropriately when discussing Sally buzbee a story that was going to reference a potentially yes, that's exactly right.

There are several incidents that have happened in the last month and then a lot of other things from his past and from the past as well that have emerged but when your referencing is because we'll Louis is velocity by prince in others into the news corp phone hacking incidents on development on next story and Sally buzbee has achieved was perfectly appropriate which is to give her boss who doesn't control across the editorial content but give her boss a heads up that.

Name the news coverage that's perfectly appropriate in most cases.

I've been in that exact same situation you say ok.

Thanks for letting me know like I look forward to reading the story but he actually judgement in doing the story and expresses Disapproval and on that sorry to interrupt the spokesperson for will Lewis is denied that he pressure Busby to quash the article that say the NPR in case you were going to bring you in here as well to give us some context on some of the connections between what's happening in the Washington Post now and alleged events in the not exactly because we'll Lewis people here haulage Amazon would have heard of him of course.

He's got a strong pedigree as a business investigative journalist.

He was editor of The Telegraph when they broke the MPs expenses scandal and actually sent them although this was criticised in the US Media for paying £110,000 for that disc Full of Lead data.

That was such a huge story in the UK all those years ago.

He was later hired by Rupert Murdoch in 2010 as group general manager at news international which was later renamed News UK and when the phone hacking scandal broke was talking about you.

He was working directly on the newspaper groups response that people will remember there was a huge outrage around the hacking particularly of the mobile phone of the murdered schoolgirl, Milly dowler before and 4 year since that story has emerged that being claims of a corporate cover up inside news international with allegations of millions of company emails were white and it will Lewis had a role in that and both will Lewis and News UK deny this entirely Lewis's repeatedly as you said denied any wrongdoing and Vivian was mentioning a court case there that is Prince Harry a civil court cases suing the newspaper group over what's called unlawful information-gathering.

He actually isn't being allowed by the judge to look at phone-hacking because he's out of time on that's over here.


Issues around to blogging and Anne and bugging and various things but as part of the wider case on that is about phone hacking and use UK is robustly defending those claims, but that case is going to try and yeah, and it's those allegations that have been the focus of some attention in the US Media both New York Times and the Washington Post both writing is there in the same about phone hacking in relation to the stories about the lyrics so that's the context and give you the people are listening and thinking what ok if you're a close follower of American media I get why what's happening at the Washington Post matters, but what about the broader concert here? Why is this important beyond the way that the Washington Post operates well first of all I mean when we say just one newspaper the Washington Post the Washington Post has won the most important newspapers in the country.

So where are the news? What happened to the Washington Post should matter a great deal who anyone for anyone who cares about.

Journalist investigative journalist in in holding the powerful to account so that matters right there but also with speak to some other trends that are happening in media one is you know the fact that is owned by a single billionaire owner who has the soul power hiring firing and what does it say about everything by Jeff bezos of course his judgement it also gets out the various sizes the very different standards between an American quality American journal of polymeric media and Dad and sort of the practise of tablets in the UK at really shined a light on different days different practises and if I didn't bring it back in from the newsagents here.

I wonder how you this and in terms of differences between American jealous.

How they see themselves and British journalist you sent.

There's a difference of distinction.

Yeah, I've got some friends of mine who work in the American newspapers, Brits and

Something that always talks about when I was asking about the different cultures of the newsrooms at both ends of TV and and papers is that and particularly in newspapers and it's cultural as well which there is a deep honest to American news Sutton newspaper particularly those two-bedroom house around the Washington Post the all-time great all that sort of thing and you can trust that with certainly British tabloids also even I think even the character of someone like well Louis who someone compared to me to Boris Johnson about him that sort of person very considered kind of kind of cultivated not knowing very much and all of these sorts of things very very careful Janice of course, but it's it's sort of slightly uncomfortably bad with the competition nature of the American Newsroom particularly like the form I can gather from from people there.

It is that as much as anything which is the kind of Genesis the story or sits at the heart of this story just before you wrap up.

I should mention that there's also sent a note to.

Staff at the Washington Post saying I'll stand at the Post of always been very high that can't change it.

Won't you have my full commitment on maintaining the quality ethics and standards will believe in that is it for today's programme.

Thank you very much all of our guests to Vivian Sheila from Aspen digital Davidson to Lewis Goodall here in the studio and all set of calls to Adam Fleming to turn your past or from goldhanger Anthony Hilton from Porto and you can listen back to this episode and all episodes of the media show on BBC sounds, but that is it for today's edition.

Thank you very much indeed for from the two of us and from all of our guests.




I'm Kavita puri and in 3 million from BBC Radio 4 IKEA extraordinary eyewitness accounts that tell the story for the first time of The Bengal famine which happened in British India in the middle of the Second World War

3 million people died, it's one of the largest losses of civilian life on the outside there isn't a museum a memorial or even a plaque to those who died how can 3 million people just disappear.

80 years on I track down first-hand accounts and make new discoveries and he remarkable stories and explore why is so complicated in Britain India and Bangladesh listen to 3 million on BBC sounds?

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