Read this: Julian Assange: journalist or activist?

You don't need us to tell you there's a general election coming.

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We talk directly to the people you want to hear from you.

I would help from some of the best BBC journalist will untangle the stories that matter to you Adam Fleming Chris Mason and Paddy O'Connell for our Daily Podcast music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 is free.

We're asking what his influence has been on journalism expose secrets governments and companies would rather keep hidden or a dangerous and reckless Force journalist or activist we talk to James Ball who's worked with him Steven Moffat the rise of the high.

The UK's biggest TV including Doctor Who and Sherlock will be with us he's back with a searing exploration of cancel culture and a warning Anything Could Happen because I'm in the studio because rolls is in Nottingham Rose tell us what you up to, Hi Katie I told you listening what I'm at Nottingham Trent University and I'm here because in a few hours time.

There's going to be a head-to-head debate between British Sunak and secure stop being hosted by the BBC I just went across to the set a little bit earlier.

It's all good to go as a small stage three letters on it at to party does one for my colleague and your colleague of course Michelle the same and the two men are going to be facing an audience of over 100 people they'll be getting questions from the audience and then debate amongst themselves with Michelle interjecting as well and I'm not speaking to you from the set right now.

I'm actually in the spin room along with a number of journalistic colleagues including Lena through the BBC

Spin remote size of a couple of tennis courts very high ceilings beautiful yeah and the people and most people have been in a spin does explain what happens here so all the publications the broadcasters will send representatives of Here the lobby.

They will turn up monitoring it live here and then after happens.

Is that both parties toys and labour party in this case will send out representative so cabinet members we expecting shadow shadow cabinet members to to try to sort of have the first at say if you like on what actually happened the messages that they want to get through the ripostes to the challenges that they will love to be be put but I think it's because you know everyone will be.

Debate with their own eyes your remember for example the last head-to-head there wasn't even she seemed like a diamond ITV broadcast it's very clear that there was a moment in that debate about which is about so that was a very clear story if you like the came out of that debate.

I don't think there will be any chance that the party representatives or influence.

What does come out of the story of the night or viet2go best lots of spinning, but they're going to try to see it with her and Eyes to use your face sitting next to you later is the BBC News director of journalism Jonathan Munro thanks for coming back onto the media show you've been involved in agreeing the format of this debate.

How is it negotiated who decides you know there's something very unique about every election, but there's also something of pattern to these things.

We've had two dates in this country since 2010 that evolved quite a bit over the years with smaller part is coming to play at the head-to-head is a relatively new thing if that the first one was only in 2019 when.

Boris Johnson wear on the equivalent of the podium that we've Got Tonight two very different characters very different politicians from soon I can starmer and the format is pretty simple actually it's the two of them answering all questions that come up so you can't have a question which is just about one party's policy or just about one part is gas.

It's got to be equal address to both of them the questions as set by the auditor in the room some of them have emailed us and said look I like to ask about a certain policy area and if if we think they're good questions will put them into the audience as well that makes you sure that all this balance between supporters of the two sides, but can either of the parties come back and I don't like this format to Bates you need corporation from all sides of course in theory.

They could come back.

It's not doing it at all and that has happened in the past on on debates.

We don't insist for example of Mr leaders themselves, but on this one.

We do it's got to be the two people who would be Prime Minister in there and right just a couple of detail.

Chooses the audience so the BBC worked with a public research chemicals suvanto, and we give them the criteria of the number of people we need and sort of profile.

We need and obviously Good the Bad the population of the equal number of men and women that kind of thing and they bring the audience and for us at this stage.

Where are we 4:06? What will Michelle saying in her BBC News colleagues been doing interns final preparation.

Well, I can tell you've already had a look at the first of the shortlist of questions.

We think there's about 10 or so that we would like to try and take an hour and a quarter so we'll get through 10 the leaders of relatively brisk in their answers can come back and get secondary questions and clarifications.

We might change in the meantime, but we'll see what happens someone detail has been told earlier is the amount of speaking time that each of the leaders gets is being monitored to make sure that they both get that roughly equal time on are Layla this was a big deal the big TV debate when?

Is it still have a journalistic impact on our house Westminster journalist cover this thing it's in that week in the evening and then the next time I think of news cycle during an election campaign with cause if there's a line come down that can go and play Jonathan thank you very much indeed in case as you can probably tell there's a harbour in the background and my experience of spin rooms is the Hub just moved up here every few minutes all the way towards the beginning of the Debate where it goes with quiet and everyone listens and watches and then of course as soon as it finishes the Hub goes back up to 10 again to be coming back to you in a few minutes about the Hubble have had time to go up a little bit but was talking now with Jonathan Munro about Michelle he's saying that she has said there are times.

I wished someone else was at the house and I could watch from my sofa at someone who knows how she may be feeling right now.

Is Julie Etchingham from ITV News back in 2015 Julie made history as the first woman ever to overseer leaders debate then it was David Cameron Ed Miliband amongst others she's since it's over the lectern Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn and just a couple of weeks ago Rishi Sunak and Keir starmer in the ITV debate Julie welcome to the media show thank you so much for coming on.

How did you decide the format of that leaders about the first one of this campaign to increase because I just know what it's like behind the scenes in these last couple of hours.

I mean as Jonathan was saying you know that we had a Corsa 2010 the very first debates when it was the three main party leaders and then relatively recently the head-to-head with the the two candidates.

Who could be Prime Minister I'm sorry sort of simplified things and it's not put some more hue spotlight on the occasion.

So just as Michelle has done.

I've done a lot of those Mel C and C and a particular level of tension around as we are there as moderators on behalf of the audience so I was very conscious of the audience in the room with me and we have our questioners the BBC will be in the room and they will have their chance to put their questions to the candidates on stage.

It's a very simple format, but it is a pension city in I'm sure on the spotlight was on you put the spotlight on there with you soon and Keir starmer news today.

Let's just have a listen to you and you dictating that then I can tell everyone what I'm going to do.

You might not like it, but I've got you going to do to tell everybody.

What are you going to do with a legal please? Can we please we will our voices please respond directly to the pattern of behaviour here.

He said he would get waiting list down there going up he said he would stop the Pope's we got record numbers come.

I love that yet, because you are so clearly in the mode of you know trying to get them to you know behave a little bit better.

Did you want us? How are you were going to try and lower the temperature between them if necessary you know I know that the various do run up and as soon as you know that you're going to be moderating on those debates your brain is already there's always a part of your brain wearing around about ok if they go here where.

You know you'll just have to be in that moment and it is a physical thing as well as verbal you know you have to put your arm out your anything to get controller in a bit as I said your day on behalf of the audience and you have to make sure as far as you can so allow the you know the answer to be heard clearly and I wonder we get a sense that audiences and yours had an audience so guessing roudier is that something you encourage were there rules for the audience sometimes we actually don't encourage it in fact.

We always have a chat with her audience a few moments before we go on you know we will ask you actually to listen to what I have to say it important that people at home can hear what's going on so we absolutely encouraging you to be rowdy.

It is noted.

Think it's right to say that we are getting more and more the response from the audiences and I think it may be something to do with the public mood at the moment.

I mean it was quite it was quite significantly this time and did you have a sense as you did you get a sense of what the leaders strategies were where they different and I suppose also do you see as your role 2fac check them as you're going along through the debate.

It is impossible to them as you're coming along and lots and lots of the bottom of what they're saying and also if you if you think they need correcting you would push them on an interview as soon as you start doing that then go down.

Finchley go down quite an avenue and you leave the other candidates standing there not taking it, so it's for others outside too fat check and it is for dentist back to check one another is there on that game they should be calling one another house in the best moments.

I think that happens you know but it's a really difficult sort of roles to fulfill.

I think if you're used to do this job interview in the person in front of us to balance out and it is hard to get the form at right.

I wondering hindsight that there was some some of your format as they're often is a different formats, but would you do anything differently next time will I know that one of the of the 45 you have to give your initial response at one of the reasons we did that and delineated very clearly is that in a previous had to had to date we didn't make that perfectly clear.

One of the candidates was not terribly interested in taking notice of that and then it back then we got for me interrupting them.

So there is in my mind where you sort of can't win the way we actually roughly the same time but we didn't spell it out quite in the same way, but you know you got things to get right.

I think you know we got a limited amount of time.

We have thousands of questions.

We want to try to make sure that we subject index as we can and get across enough subjects as possible, so there is always a balance to be struck and you never quite sure and it's obviously not just asked having debates the US election debate is tomorrow the rules on that one.

I know very strict.

They're going to meet the candidates microphones.

I read unless it's their turn to speak.

Format for us to think I may be a bit lifeless a hot mess inside a dumpster Fire Inside a train or something so pretty radical moves in terms of keeping microphones neutered when one of candidates it sounds quite sure they're also not having an audience in there which I think is intriguing because we know that you know in the past those those audience when President Trump in the last round has managed to manage to connect so I think it's very intriguing absolute.

Thank you so much for coming on taking time out of your day ITV News to speak to us.

To go back to Rose in Nottingham Rose I don't know Julie knows how much I will be feeling I don't know whether you've seen her, but she she will still be busy.

I actually haven't seen Michelle today.

I saw the news from last week and of course preparations are already well underway for this evening, but I've not seen her in the last couple of hours here at Nottingham Trent fascinating to hear Julie Etchingham insights and experiences with reference to these kind of TV set pieces listening to Julie Etchingham was Dominic ring professor of political communication at Loughborough University and someone has been on the media show before great to see you darling.

Thank you very much for joining us here in the spin room.

I wonder you specialising in measuring media coverage during election campaigns do big TV set pieces like this impact the broader media coverage mean in this campaign in our first report 3 weeks ago that initial D

To head between Mr and Mr starmer certainly have some impact on the agenda in the unit allegations about Labour tax payment plans the two thousand and claim the lot of attention from some of the press that particular synthetic to Mr Sunak taxes in somebody decades and that's also put tax really on the general.

We've seen it is as the most substantive policy issues sell for in terms of the media, but looking for the back and then we've been analysing lady that since 1992 so well before starting in 2010.

What was in 2010 that was quite a significant moment in the the media agenda was Ruby sort of a day before and the day after was really focused around that first debate in particular law of diminishing returns though in 2010.

There was a novel TGI's debates.

We've got used to them to some degree as we get used to them too.

They have less influence.

That's right, the first debate was so significant with Mr Clegg been there as well as the two main candidates for the Premiership and the fact I would advise you said we can you with him on the stage and that was so significant as a game-changing before any questions have been asked but they haven't had quite the impact of ink on an election since then BBC weather tonight and how that impacts of course but that was really quite precedented and it was a was again change about the debates and discussions that go on about the rules.

That's really important.

I think in terms of the rules are in place to regulate how to clean attraction of the audiences think you're really quite significant here as a potential game changer any sort of you know you were saying you've been studying election campaign to the media since 1992 so I wonder what you are discovering this time and how it compares with previous election campaigns are the new trends that your soon.

That's quite apparent actually interested.

Isn't he is not in this debate tonight is Nigel Farage is the third most significant politician after the two men you gonna speak this evening my coverage is really kind of managed to attract attention.

Obviously some of it's turned more negative in in recent days and can be very interested when I report lands at the weekend as to what we find in terms of how and how is his reception is changed because it brought you been speaking speaking is being really positive to date, but it's the most significant is the amount of coverage is good game pretty clean the press as opposed to your other leaders such as Stephen Flynn and Davie and across the green pair as well.

There's some what you don't behind him.

So he's really managed to you know creative imedia interest and maintain his campaign on the media coverage within this general election.

Turn that can be found online that's Dominic ring professor of political communication from Loughborough University I should quickly add Katie that the BBC prime ministerial debate is going to be broadcast live on BBC1 and BBC iPlayer from 8:15 to 9:30 p.m.

You can also listen here on Radio 4 from 8:15 p.m.

Also Laura kuenssberg and Clive myrie, who are going to be hosting election night on the BBC going to be live on BBC One from here in the spin room straight after the Debate that I've just seen them running through some of their rehearsals and getting ready for their broadcaster.

That will follow on from the Debate and as I was mentioned.

It is reasonably busy now, but it's going to get a lot busier in the coming hours as a great deal of political journalist descend on this spoon room at Nottingham Trent University thank you.

Enjoy the spare room.

We should let you leave you alone now.

So you can do that because here on the media show we're going to talk about a bigger story because Julian Assange just people will have heard the founder of WikiLeaks has walked free.

Us cold after being guilty in a deal.end a 14-year legal battle is now back in Australia you buy us prosecuted for leaking vast amounts of class of government and military documents including those related to the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars and in a press conference earlier today his lawyer called the prosecution the criminalisation of journalism did Julian Assange Pioneer a new form of journalism by setting up WikiLeaks and has his case by pleading guilty set a dangerous precedent for reporters in a minute.

I'm going to talk is now political editor at the new European but it worked with the songs back in 2010 and Katie Mark who's deputy editor the bureau of investigative journalism, but let's start with carried herself senior staff Attorney at the night first amendment Institute at Columbia University carry welcome to the media show thanks very much happy to be fair great.

Let's start with.

How you understand this plea deal, because it for you? What's the significance of him pleading guilty under the espionage act which is what he's done.

I think this predeal is significant in two respects.

I mean in the first instance must be an enormous relief of course for Julian Assange and his family and his supporters around the world as well as for press freedom and the kids here in United States who have been quite concerned about a judicial ruling that would endorse us governments interpretation of the espionage act and its consistency with the first amendments being the right to free speech.

Just a reminder body.

Yes exactly and play deal really does cast a long shadow of a press freedom in United States it's not a formal president in the sense that a judicial ruling would have been but it does but I think that a practical president for the possibility of future prosecutions of journalist who engage in various.

To the activities that Julian Assange has pleaded guilty to and by that I'm referring to the solicitation of information from sources the actual receipt of that information and then publication of that information and talking about what's called national defence information classified information.

That's information that national Security reporters solicitor and wish on a regular basis ok, but the US government contention was the actually went further than a journalist word because for example WikiLeaks didn't always redact sensitive information and he was accused of putting people at risk.

What's your table mat?

That is what the US government has said and I think the question of whether or not traditional journalist would have published the same information if someone irrelevant to the ultimately brought against Julian Assange under the espionage act the US government is under no obligation to show that the publication of this kind of information resulted in any harm.

What's the US national interests so well? I wouldn't necessarily defend every editorial choice that Julian Assange made nor do I think other outlets would it be the same price as a little bit many did publish weeks documentary Julian Assange WikiLeaks published in the UK what time does Beagle in Germany and many others your day did as you say publish WikiLeaks documents and data and information.

Why didn't the US government prosecute the journalist with work?

Why did they just go for him? You think that's a great question? I think they were relying on this distinction that they tried to put forward between Julian Assange and a traditional journalist, but even publisher right.

They don't see him as a John this is that right? They don't seem as a journalist, but that's really just some kind of atmosphere protection for the outlets that you just need to publish much of the same information.

There's no beagle distinction between the acts that they engaged in the publication of information on their website and in our newspapers and they take some care to redact didn't know what they would say yes.

I'm sorry not to suggest that they publish all of the information that Julian Assange and published but the charges that were brought against Julian Assange could have been just as well brought against outlets and do you think the fact that he pleaded guilty will that have a chilling effect on Jonas working in the future? We could I think you said it?

Can use as a president but but how do you view what it means for journalism and journalists in the future the lightning at the outside? I think has had a chilling effect on national Security journalism here and United States and perhaps around the world as well because it shows that the US government no longer.

She ain't you a line that the Obama administration has drawn between using the espionage act to prosecute sources of information and the publishers of that and your bum a ministration and Kanye famously concluded that there would be a huge when it cold in your x problem if it pursue these charges against Julian Assange that time the registration cross that line and the Binding ministration hasn't water back from it has been team does prosecution and while I think many but I will leave to see that this is.

Rather than a judicial ruling convicted Julian Assange under the asking are jacked the last has established the possibility that journalists and others would be subject to the same charges going forward to thank you so much for giving us that legal perspective.

I want to turn to James Ball from the new European James you worked at WikiLeaks for 3-months back in to take us back to that time and what was it like to work when I don't think I'll be breaking competences to say Julian is a difficult man to work with but it was credibly energised an energetic time Julian used to like to make WikiLeaks look as if it was thousands of people and was really strong and was huge and it was about 67 people and a few volunteers working out of Thorne-Smith front room V Smith is the owner of Ellingham hall of such a beautiful country house in Norfolk

And he told his so housekeeper that we were very sorry unruly tech startup and so were sitting on this terrible internet connection trying to sort of publish these documents sheds unprecedented light on what happened in Afghanistan Iraq and then of course the state department cables to remind people at that time.

I'm around the time you were that was when WikiLeaks Julian Assange released footage for example of a US helicopter crew Dunning down on arm the Rockies on a Baghdad Street that was in 2010 when it was released really did feel like public-interest revelations, did it feel that you were doing journalism all activism or what I have come there as a trans journalist my background was they're very much viewed as a journalistic sainement.

We were partnering with Channel 4 with dispatches.

We were partnering with Al Jazeera we will with the Guardian the New York Times are we were sitting in meetings making the same decisions.

There was quite an old feeling in WikiLeaks where we were the exposed face I was about 24 and I have more experience than most people there and the papers kind of hades' sitting in front of them in the criticism.

It was the song who got the criticism from Hillary Clinton from all the rest.

We did feel a bit like a sort of Shield being used to help the papers with it, but getting this incredible day today.

Yes, and it should be said there was some real Horrors revealed in that if you if anyone listening or watching hasn't looked at the collateral murder video as this helicopter fight.

It was known is deeply shocking to reuters journalists a short but someone's driving past and I happen to know you had two young children in the car sees people shot on the ground and stops to help them as any cute like you know what a courageous thing to do and that's grand enough for him to be shot from the air in front of his children mercifully survived it was the Iraq War

190000 deaths you know this is very grave serious stuff when they prosecute Chelsea Manning who was the source for this actually decided to present evidence saying that the careless reductions which icon Damned and which others come down and they said they put people at risk and I believe that they never actually suggested anyone would actually come to harm let alone being killed department of these documents revealed thousands of real deaths and can I just ask you? Did you know in a few himself inactive? How did you read that? I think it different moments and wood frame himself as what fitted best at the time of his image or his convenience.

He was a journalist when he thought that was given protections use an activist the other times.

He should have some time for talk about transparency is the goal but he would also say actually it was about countering and imperialism.

And so and transparency was a more convenient way to do that but I don't think whether a sound as a journalist or not is Central to whether the prosecution against in threatened journalism, you stay with us James but I want to talk more about the WikiLeaks model and bringing Katie Mark who's the deputy editor at the bureau of investigative journalist the journalism and Casey thank you for coming on the programme.

I want to ask you the same question I asked James do you consider Julian Assange a journalist or activist? Thank you for having me on so I would say he's more of blacksmith when you're dealing with you know James James just sort of motivation to bring down this imperial or organising a council is imperial message you not really have that kind of motivation going into journalism and the other the other thing I think be quite important.

Is that you have editorial rules of frameworks which you work within when you're a journalist.

So like you mentioned you know if we are going to be publishing things we will have will think about privacy will think about redactor names.

We will think about legal what legal contact we have anything for holding content that is illegal so I think that you would I don't think I'll be able to have a wholesale publication of Leeds without going through very very specific frameworks you like if you are a letter and if you look back go at that time.

Did you do you think that what he was trying to do with WikiLeaks did that change journalism as you see it.

I think which one of the first times we had this massive amount of the state of them and that kind of on that kind of scale so we are of course we had leaks and we've had whistleblowers, but that's kale beyond anything we could see it was just the cable you mentioned earlier.

That's 400000 documents that we were dealing with so jealous now had to adapt to dealing.

How do you how do you deal with huge amount of data dinosaur documents to change how you can look at that we have putting framework to be able to go through that anything back.

Isn't it? Because you're kind of take those kind of data dance for granted these days things that reporters will collaborate on works with the people involved but actually Back Then That Was The Case what you know now you know we have a Panama papers.

We have Cyprus confidential have Snowdon back, then.

We just didn't so you would have the whistle blow that will come to you might have some files.

Millions for example one of the projects we work on the 8th of euros at Cyprus confidential files which is kind of those massive explosion financial framework Russia Putin money right and that is 3.6 million miles that we are going through so we are in Consortium with 68 other newsrooms because it's just we could just look on that and do that for the rest of our lives and how long have you got is going to take you alright? That's right.

You know so yeah, so we had to have to work together you have to collaborate and you have to see if there's anything even of interest in these days.

Is this public interest is the main thing was looking for and that is I think maybe what also differentiates the journalism the activism or would you would you agree that this is something that WikiLeaks Julian Assange pioneered it absolutely was it's not the Legacy Julian Assange would one but he has revolutionised mainstream.

These rooms are Legacy would he want that.

One that involved a challenge to mainstream journalism, how we do it at the minimum, but you know the Guardian when they were WikiLeaks looking at it in Microsoft Excel in fact it turned out.

They were only looking at last 65000 records for awhile old version of Excel that didn't open the rest and I could probably I worked there for 5-years that much much better this stuff now.

They're brilliant, but it's not only skilled up newsrooms to realise even they need people who could code who could do data.

It.

Taught me things collaboration the Guardian in the new time for never worked together before WikiLeaks and have collaborated time again since four things like Snowdon and I worked on the Snowdon documents.

We really works to publish enough of the documents to prove what we were saying and there wasn't that culture before we wouldn't we would ask the audience to trust as we wouldn't show them.

It's we started working with open.

Investigators people like bellingcat who helped track that Russia was behind them out 17 and so are journalism is more accountable it uses more modern techniques and Julian Assange scientific journalism to read is get to see the data behind the story and decide for themselves and I think he actually moved off that model and he moved off WikiLeaks was name for Wikipedia are there for two and never related to Jimmy Wales gets very cross if you suggest but he initially saw if you just publish the documents everyone would go and find a store people don't do that.

It takes training it takes kill it takes money but he did have this idea that you should show your working and I think to an extent that has stayed you know we looked through I mean the Snowden documents were top secret they were much more sensitive even the Chelsea Manning released and I probably personally read about 89000 of them.

The Guardian published over the course of two years about 60 with Abby reductions and that was cos they were the relevant ones to the story we might have had to read 50 to understand something but what shows you the car about what demonstrates it without unnecessarily risking security and these are incredibly hard decisions and other people think they should publish more very much salt should publish less but even when we were doing Snowdon with the Guardians backing behind us the legal briefings on the espionage act was terrifying and we were told essentially what you are.

What is protecting you is the US government not choosing to pursue you because if they pursue you they will almost certainly get the conviction and people will remember he was in Ecuadorian Embassy for years and then a British prison until that time of the seaside very vocal supporters, but is it fair to say that is only relative?

Saintly that mainstream journals have been campaigning for him because for a long time it felt that your pants because of those sex events allegations your face in Sweden which he denied that he was ignored.

I think it's genuinely a tragedy for the two women in Sweden that they will never get their day in court a sound Around the Clock out on that with this time in the embassy and there's it's now passed of limitation.

That's an injustice whatever the verdict may have been to that's an injustice, but what happens here is in my view a second injustice.

You know this was a bad reducing against Assange that is a threat to join this across the world Assange is America he didn't do this work in America he's not Australian citizen.

Who did it in Britain and has had to plead guilty despite the best legal counsel you could have much better resources than almost anyone and more international fame and support than anyone would have that's a chilling effect and that's dangerous.

When it comes to support for him, I think a sounds and his supporters would say the mainstream wasn't there I know that ever since 2019.

I have written that this was a bad fusion whatever you think of this and I know Alan rusbridger.

He was the Guardian editor has built a has what they want is full-throated support of a sandwich is a hero that's not going to win over anyone who doesn't isn't already on his side and there are a lot of my remember back in 2012.

I think it was outside the Ecuadorian Embassy covering the Story 4 Channel 4 news in a whole host timeout to do with balcony scene and talk about him fat American wasn't procedure and the vagina light on the powerful.

He clearly saw himself as a journalist back then what what do you think's next for him now is free was going to get the first interview I suppose because he actually didn't speak to them on the word and then it was his mother and his wife is spoken to bed.

So I'm I think it will be interesting to see.

Kind of Assange emerges, I don't think he's about to go for the quiet life.

He's he's quite a formidable person but people who are still close to him.

I've said it's taking a real tell them his house and he's not the same man.

He was no he is 7 years in the embassy were quite confined.

He could never get out some people say that he chose to go there the concert 5 years in Belmarsh is very real so he may just want some time away, but I think you're probably try and be a public figure again.

He tried to run WikiLeaks out of the Ecuadorian Embassy with some quite chaotic results included publishing actual hacking tools used by the CIA which I don't think anyone can defend is journalism now anyway speaking to someone that visible is taking a big risk and every agency those who he is where he is, but I don't think that would stop him trying I mean Julian Assange is a man who believes himself and so you could easily be back.

Definitely not over but it is for us right now changeable.

Thank you Katie bargain.

Also.

Thank you very much for coming on the program but for the rest of our time today.

We're going to talk about TV drama with one of the best-known writers in the business also an executive producer Steven Moffat you'll see his name on the credits of many shows Doctor Who Sherlock a monster and soon a new drama series called Douglas is cancelled is about a leading news anchor in trouble after allegations start to go viral that he told an inappropriate joke at a wedding here is the Hugh Bonneville character story straight with his editor.

I was a little drunk not in my opinion.

I'm sorry I disagree baby drank that whenever they're having a about things we didn't Witnesses the entire existence.

We are the brave.

You turn up to the event and explain it to everyone else who Mr that was Ben miles as the editor ending that clip.

They're welcome Steven Moffat delighted that.

Tell me why you want to make that show now I wanted to make it about 7 years ago the truth because that's when I wrote the play on which are based on a play about 7 years ago.

Just left doctor who is Sherlock on felt absolutely confident that Theatre wanted nothing more than me.

I know I thought stadiums would fill with with cheering grateful people but literally must have heard and even write back.

So I realise that having lost control of the TARDIS I no matter not at all.

Yes, because she made you just put it to one side for a bit and really it was done to my wife who all would like to entertain look it's not getting less relevant.

Is it and of course my old friend Karen Gillan from Doctor Who become buy some strange international movie star?

He kept saying he has to read it which never happened to the right as it did not know never asked to read the whatever just to say she plays at the yankah equal sides equal Channel 4 news in the source of co presenting a positive sign has been commission as executives would have been scared to the idea of cancel culture on earlier.

Do you agree with that in any way? I don't know if I agree with that because I don't we didn't really experiment with it.

It was actually relatively recently.

I was working something else that will Karen loves it in my wife loves it.

Why don't I turn it into the one thing? I know how to write which is a TV show that was relatively recent and it only went down.

For that reason and then ITV wait for it to come on this show and talk about absolutely do you get a sense of why did turn it down and I can say having watched? It's really good then becomes a hit well.

I'm always happy from my old friends at the BBC ticket.

Not at all.

I love you all know it wasn't too bad at the moment.

What they wanted to do it does happen in most things you suggest get turned down.

No is the most frequent answer any man knows that and it's unusual why did you set it because cuz broadcast news is a great movie is and I am writing a kids with cold Press Gang where they were all the teenager and I love that.

Newsroom at all, it's all monitors know these people looking very serious and I just automatically excited.

I'm going to come on to press gang but I suppose just I do have to ask about this in terms of this.

Show did you have any one particular in mind that people watching it of course would be forgiven for thinking a good substitute.

Maybe Schofield or huw Edwards into that show hello, there is nothing I have no resemblance to their predicaments whatsoever and I wrote the main part of it long before they got themselves in whatever it was they got himself so no I wasn't inspired but I can't understand I don't want them to be sitting watching television thinking on leave me alone.

It's not it's not you.

It's not very much and a drama that isn't just about cancel culture a big theme is sexism.

Suppose I should ask is that something that you've seen in your long career in the media? Is it unique to show business in anyway? Anyway? No, it's not you need to be doing better in some respects and other places.

I don't know it's more that element of it.

I'm married to an incredibly powerful successful woman to my my wife has produced Mr Bean and the critically in Sherlock and all sorts of amazing thing.

I've heard very much but she say thanks about what is like to be defective powerful women in television you think someone would say that to you.

I think I heard from her because I think she was once called producers producers around Michael Bridges that question you felt so let's go back to the beginning of your correctly often talk about how difficult it is to get into.

Making dramas the media, have you want to text but you had a lucky break relating to your dad which is a great story alright ok? Well, what was it was my I was wanting to be a writer something that I have been feeling a lot and yeah and my dad.

Had a show Harry Secombe presenting.

What was it called highway? I'd like to make clear would go and sing it terrified children in various schools around the country and Andy talk about God I think I think I found it a perfectly and they use my dad school one week and he stayed for a kids show about two children newspaper know the truth.

What he didn't really have an idea for it, so I was just doing education project about.

And while a TV producer was there I'll try searching that and 2-years after that conversation by producers producers American girlfriend that look I'd like the rights to promoting that idea to selling that idea by can't give you any money for Miller approaching and he said OK I'll go with that so long my son can writed and she said absolutely not under the circumstances.

She said absolutely cannot but I tell you what I'll compromise.

I will read his script and tell him why doesn't work so I wrote a version of it, but as luck would have it.

She bad enough to send a hasty to think it was a good idea.

I've got the script was really good.

So yes, you do have an interest in my that was set in a pie.

The excitement of the can't you go back to travel through everything that's happening in the world is coming out of the screens out with microphone that is exciting and you know your career took off and lots of people will know you because of Doctor Who 2008 YouTube services lead writer and executive producer of Doctor Who I think you've written more episodes than anyone.

We was that I was quite like to get sore behind the scenes of how these things work.

You're right.

You were the right and also the executive producer.

What does that mean? How are you devising it? What does get what you do? If you're writing it? All if you do what you doing is the exact producer and producer who is the head writer you know you're not booking camera cos you're not doing that.

You are the one who did executive.

Good and they were always said the executive producers showrunner is the Casual term for it and let me go in creative control over so you are writing script editing other people script writing other people's deciding on the creative direction of the shower and that show has gone from strength to strength reduction with Disney what impacts of Kashmir Jane tranter on a while ago on the media show his one exactly but what that injection of cash made a big difference in terms of what you saying screen whatever James yes, you get my money.

I mean I think you might money Doctor Who is always made on his not quite enough but yeah, you get more money and the truth is every other every other show a movie or whatever in that genre is scootering a way into the into the distance I remember when I started on it Game of Thrones was just coming out and get the time at the beginning.

Yeah shooting in the same section of Marshall and that's when roughly a little bit by the end of years later that is amazing battles and endless dragons behind because we do not have that money.

So yes you have to find places to get your money to make that show that the kids are think it will they said the cheap yeah, and I've just we will come onto that again more than a second but I think I saw that Russell T Davies who brought her back in the noughties.

He said the current series isn't doing that well and they're waiting but it is doing really well with the younger audience but we wanted how do you assess that it said that he won't be insisted the BBC restored it to its traditional Saturday Teatime sew.and as I'm with him on an email.

There are many many new shows being cold hits because of that because of ratings are smaller than Doctor Who is frequently winning the night television has changed.

Hotel available for you to watch and the same number of people watching it so guess what the numbers for any individual show will go down.

There is also 19 years remember this of Doctor Who available on the iPlayer that you can be standing in the middle of a field on your phone and watch it.

It's competing with itself so Doctor Who's doing great very very well with the with the younger audience which BBC One is very very keen to get hold of and it's really important because the time much later people my age by practically tomorrow.

You know whether show would be criticise ever for those rating the Russell you just to say that dog is it cancelled on YouTube it's on ITV for the BBC you've had some material on Netflix what's your take on the licence fee debate here in the UK and the future of Public Service Broadcasting

Any part of this Just Cause eye makeup nonsense about Daleks in to text but this model by some means happens to be brilliant by this set of ideas all went together and have a former state television is absolute genius happens once occasionally miracles happen and what you do when that happened you don't interfere with them.

You don't suddenly decide we don't really need a licence me.

You don't know why it works as well as it has a leave it alone, but what does seem to be working for the BBC play and other public service broadcast it to do these deals with us to bring in more money.

Let me have a stream of change the way you work I get a different if you got an injection of cash and is there any other responses you have to notes from more people from PC backgrounds is fine.

They have they are very very good the Screamers explaining to you.

What works on in there environment what kind of need and I think they have introduced us to a new form of television which is binge-watching and I don't think that's going to go anywhere.

I think it's good.

I think I think people are voting with the just been watching a short ones myself for instance is available from 7:30 tomorrow morning.

Cinemas no longer much of a home for that kind of drama was actually saying I think they would you know you're not crashing Superhero movies Barclays but you don't think there's a home for that kind of store sounded that was off the coffee press launch and I never meant it too.

I think there are special things that cinema can do that television cannot do and there to do with spectacle and I'm not just going to be the same when you watch it on your television.

It's not that I spoke to the sound design and visualisation of that are unique to cinema but if you look at say I don't take a brilliant movie like when I broadcast news which my favourite back in the day actually I can see that 226 point series that's fine.

You know that would work perfectly well on your television televisions are better.

Maximum values are better and what what is special enough to be a movie is maybe changing.

I did not mean as any disc on movies at all.

I'm sure you didn't have one of the people talk about as well as you know the advent of Netflix and Disney plus and those sorts, but they brought about some sort of homogenization of content that we we not getting as British of you if you watch something education.

I suppose it could be anywhere or particular example where the deliberately chose a kind of general international generalize school clothes that are not like that.

I mean baby reindeer seem very much setting out.

I don't think that's true.

I don't think she's nearly shows elect to be that way and we don't need to be worried about British losing.

Just had the TV talking about the post office Drummond saying it actually make any money from a drama like that.

Is difficult to get made because there's not an appetite for around the world cos it's so uniquely British that's all true and fair enough, but we don't know what there's going to be an appetite for people say that something is not going to be an international hit how often are the right or wrong when you talk about a surprise hit I want to say what's the alternative to a prize hit a hit in advance.

They're all surprised it Doctor Who is incredibly British also was Sherlock how much my British could you get the benefit of solid British is me.

It was Martin Freeman Sherlock Holmes is too and yes, it was a massive international hit you don't know what everybody wants and I will ask though because what we as we're coming to the end in the last 30 seconds of the minute.

We're in the election period mean about politics to the top of the program.

Is there demand would there be demanding Preston for a political?

Great ones in the past across in America with the west wing but also here with handsome great political shows would you ever want to write a shut up? It was interesting about the the west when was a non cynical view of politics perhaps a rather Rosie view of the other emotional but I did like the fact is another serious jobs and I sometimes think it is possible to imagine that the inhabitants of ten Downing Street have tougher jobs and we do and work longer hours and face dire consequences and no they're going for one day and maybe we could cut them a little slap not in terms of their performance but in terms of the stress under which they live Steven Moffat thank you very very much.

We've got to end up just to remind people that Douglas is cancel start tomorrow on the 27th of June on ITV1 and also as you said on ITV X but thank you to Stephen also.

Thank you at home and studio to James ball of them.

Paint carry to sell the others but that's it for the media, so goodbye hello.

I'm Adam Fleming this is going to be my sick election as a journalist for the BBC political people and campaigners love using their own language.

So we thought we make a series 4 BBC Radio 4 on picking it all.

What is a manifesto? What's swing? How do opinion polls work who picks the candidates that is the subject of my podcast series understand the UK election available on BBC Science