Read this: Reporting Biden's health

When The Inbetweeners came out people being so nasty about my weight what is it really like to be famous the Minute podcast I'll hear about the highs and lows of things from Guess like Emily atack Frances and Daisy May Cooper and I just thought I've got no idea what I'm doing here.

How to be in the spotlight with me right then the job.

It is so fun and it listens on BBC sounds BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome three big subjects for us to talk about this the Fallout continues from Joe biden's performance in his TV debate with Donald Trump look at how the US media has covered the issue of biden's age both before the Debate and since in Tenerife

Search for 19 year old J Slater has been called off by local police will look at how the media has covered the story and the role of amateur investigators online and cosy and I am just back from Glastonbury Festival there was certainly a lot to take in and I was struck how the performance is there a film for everyone to see I just a fraction of all the performances at the festival and that's not buy beginning explore Glastonbury Media strategy in a media age where festivals of all types have the potential to generate huge volumes of content but before that we can talk about the media store.

It's coming just in the last few minutes.

I've got the an image shared by the Sun newspaper which has on the front page of it time for a new manager.

It says it's time for a change the son and daughter singing the Labour Party it says over the course of 14 often chaotic years the Tories have become a divided rabble more interested in fighting themselves and running the country.

Exhausted says the sun which means that it's time for Labour and this is a story that you've been covering for a few weeks now.

It is in a couple of weeks ago.

I did write a story projecting exactly this to McDonagh people's to Higgins who was the editor of The Sun back in 1997 when people will remember it came out for Tony Blair and he told me this time he believed having too many people inside the paper and calls I made my own enquiries to that it would be caveated support essentially the feeling was for the tool is needed some time out of government and that the sun he said would Max Palmer but essentially heartily and I would say looking at this that's exactly what has happened because a lot of this is about the fact that even though the sun that says it supports quite a lot of the Conservative policies at because of what happened with various things that they site they say the tool is needed some time out of government and they put in a good word for Nigel Farage and reform whilst I'm there.

Band and then they say look Keir starmer has changed the party and therefore we're supporting him the key thinkers of causes the sun likes the back winners and has done her ever since 1917, so these conversations been happening behind the scenes with my understanding for months and that you know he's very different from 1997 is a very different Media landscape a very different newspaper, but as we said yes, it's happened finally there.

I was wondering if it was going out with me articles.

Just think it's going to happen.

I was bit worried whether it was going to happen because you know obviously we've only got one day.

You'll realise it has under the sun shines off.

We will hold labour to account Without Fear or favour, but we wish them every success well.

Let's speak to Craig all of her former director of communications for David Cameron when he was prime minister.

Thank you very much indeed for coming on the programme.

What's your reaction to this will look it's very late in the day for the sun to do this.

I remember when they switch their support from Gordon

Cameron happened to the Labour Party Conference many months before so I think you can read into that.

There's a limited Enthusiasm here.

It's happening that lays the great day as always be it does the sun great the winner.

What is it back they likely with it and I think there's a very good old say that they looked at the situation.

Don't look it almost impossible for the conservative and labour gonna win therefore it be weird for is not to back them and they prefer to pack the width of a note with the Tories of sort this endorsement though, is it something that the person doing the job that you wanted 10 would have seen as being a priority.

I think it's less important than it perhaps Wars but the Conservative Party given the state there at the moment needs every friend that I can get and I think they would have wanted this and strangely.

This is more of a blow to the conservative party, then it is a boost to the Labour Party the relationship between Keir starmer and use UK is always with a tough one remember he was the director of public prosecutions.

You know prosecuted a number of people at that paper to the relations always been very very tough one.

Could you feel even when you were in Downing Street in the last decade the shift in emphasis was moving away from newspapers towards more digital outlets definitely that's the case looking most people about you in 20-years ago got a lot of them from newspapers and took a lot of their opinions from that's not to say that they're not still influential.

I think they do set the agenda in lots of ways, but I think they grip on saying who you should do is obviously lucent waiting quite a shift away from people staying loyal to parties that kind of things newspaper readership is dropping like a stone it tends to be older people so the influence they have yes, nobody wants was just greatly appreciate if that's ok.

I got a bit former director of communications for David Cameron and it is worth putting those that into contacts by saying back in 1997.

The sun as a newspaper print you've ever had 4 million sales and it was believed to be seen by 12 mm of the working population now.

I mean they no longer publish their sales figures, but we think it's about 600000 they do say they reach 7 million people digitally and in print, but it's just a very very different time.

That's the sun endorsing the Labour Party in general election will a £10 UK politics to us politics because I'm sure many of you listening would have seen the CNN debate between Joe Biden and Donald Trump generated huge attention.

It was watched by around million people but actually what happened was seen by many more people than that those clips of Joe biden's faltering performance went viral and Frankie the medium political Fallout was instant the next day the New York Times editorial board calls for Biden to withdraw from the race the New Yorker and the Chicago tribune followed last night.

We saw Lloyd dockets dockets becoming the first sitting democratic member of congress.

Call on Joe Biden to withdraw the senior Democrat Nancy Pelosi said it is fair to ask about biden's age and we've got some fantastic guess to talk about this all with Jill abramson former executive editor of The New York Times Annie linskey is the White House reporter for the Wall Street Journal and Naeem Raza is the contributors of the news website semaphore and co-host of their new podcast Micky welcome to all of you.

Thank you so much for coming on the meteor shower.

I just wondered starting perhaps with you no humour, but this is a question to you all that just your initial reaction to what's been busy days a very I mean we've spoken at the cinemas unprecedented election at the presidential election.

I think now that has really come to rerun a lot of ways until last week when things really picked up and I think there's a lot of reporting and newsrooms around the country or racing to try to figure out.

What is happening?

Around the president and around the campaign and Jill Evans and what's your sense of it been too little attention in the ensuing days since 82, what a fabulous week.

This is been for Donald Trump by me not only did Biden have this disastrous to be performance, but the Supreme Court presidential immunity is the best news he is you know since he was present I think so the crisis for Democrats is is quite really it's it's not simply Beynon the bay.

It's there everything seems to be breaking Donald Trump's way including the better and staples and I'm sure we'll come back to that any lynskey from the Wall Street Journal your I'm sure you watch the Debate live, but your sense back then or what happened.

I was watching the date with exactly 2016 debates that 10-minutes internet to be a start getting text messages from democratic operatives Stevenson wallmakers aghast what they were saying on the stage and for me it was all we had done some reporting along those lines and very much confirmed a lot of the things that we had reported about how the president is in the Unscripted moments that don't have a clear end point and where he has to do a kids ordering on even if you're going badly ok and just my images to bring you in to talk about the evolution of media coverage since the Debate I mean let's start shall we with the media you?

The support president Biden because the reaction has moved in stage at first of all what happened on the night in terms of what the media said I think it was actually people who watch the end on CNN news about people 59 Americans are pretty many people watched the right after I mean.

I think you saw this play out like it were people were literally literally reading you text messages that they were seeing you have the and Jones from The Obama administration support you no talk about what could happen interesting thing to look at is not necessarily CNN or Fox News for you.

Kind of knew where the conversation maybe was going to go by MSNBC YouTube and you know the discussion and coverage that 10 and 30-days that nothing anyone was doing the same as a good today.

I think that would be very hard argument to make for the president.

But you had no right away editorials published by natural kinds of people like that christophe Thomas Freeman M People I think you know that the present holding hi David ignatius with written questions about from the Washington Post was written questions about the present age last fall and have created a bit of a medium moment then but but when is the thing it's just when it came to that night clearly as always happens after these sorts of experiences you have a spin Roman people start trying to spend a Democrat defence to be here.

I kind of don't believe your eyes strategies some people will call you want to how effective you think that was just live in a very long time.

I don't think it's affecting the back of the movie.

I don't think it's infected with photos of people who are seeing that but I think it's been a kind of hallmark of our time right now that this is a hire purchase an environment which.

Anything can be discredited as both so nothing feels true.

I mean we saw this you know even with the her report actually when it came out in February at this is a special counsel Robert mueller's report in my documents that actually had some of your reporting but didn't fit in February know when we got this report from her saying that there is an old man.

You know with a j well-meaning man with kind of challenge memory and it's cold in here, but does the subgenus a lot of questions were asked a lot of questions for us.

Just like I have been asked after pulling and Fall of 2023 we were told we will definitely come to this.

I'm just trying to get from from nyima to sort of sense of how the immediate.

Since the Debate and I know we're going to go back to beforehand as well, but but just so you know because after that the baby had columnist then decided to call for the president to withdraw followed by some editorial boards from newspapers.

It just August who did what when and how much influence an editorial article actually has on the president of the United States and whether they stand for president again.

I mean and who did I think that you give a good somewhere before about the New York Times out of Atlanta journal-constitution came out working down and even Joe scarbro of morning jfm.

Who the president you just pay attention to is very watch programme asking questions about where we go from here.

How is it going to wife with the same page? So was I mean I think but I do think that this is going to be hard to have you know will hurt.

There is a conversation from the best president that was politically motivated when the viral clips came out of the president and DJ and otherwise we were told all these are you know where craft craft differently aeroplane with made by the orange and others that will not through around those clubs people know what they started 59 people saw this today and I don't think this is going away from the former executive editor of The New York Times bring you in because you're expressing their frustration that you don't feel that the American media more broadly has covered this story.

Can you tell us why well first before I do that.

I wanna do a hat tip to Annie and not Wall Street Journal which really did digging and you know reading their story on when I was published.

It was a true attempt at a real investigation of how the president of mental conditions were.

That was great and you know the white house in Democrats tried to discredit by saying all the name sources were Republicans and then it was a part of Cenotaph it was that it was the truth and it was as close to the truth as you guys could get which is what we expect from the media in the United States we were protected by the First Amendment because our job is to hold power accountable and there's no more important question then can the president of our country carry out duties as he equipped to do that and the fact that it's typed to the Debate and that emperor has no clothes.

You know that fairy tale for everyone watching to see the reality other two for the truth to come out and so you know we're going to be up.

Any came Close 17th jumping it because Libby Jumpin Jumpin here, because we gonna talk to Andy about this article that she wrote about concerns around his house, which was published in early June but before we talk about how and he reported that in the Wall Street Journal I want to understand from you.

Why you think it is that a great amount of the US Media didn't give this issue the scrutiny that you feel it deserves.

How do we explain that you know I I don't pretend you know as someone who's not even the current editor of the news organisation to explain but there been various hypotheses, which I think are possible number one is you know that this Whitehouse executed one of the best cover-ups about time one that would make Richard Nixon India's number one that's a possibility.

You know push back and complain and buy every journalist to report on balance age and its effects as number one and number two player legitimate one that I really hope isn't true but that because of urinal is Dunnes in a dessert tonight see democracy destroyed by Donald Trump the reporters stayed away from the story because they didn't want to help Donald Trump that is not our job.

That is not the Mission of journalism, so those I think are the major two possible explanations.

I don't pretend to have that you should say that the White House word push back at any idea that it was covering up any aspect of the peasants ability to do.

But I do want to bring in Annie linskey now is White House reported for the Wall Street Journal and wrote an article that chill was just referencing there that was on 4th of June many months before they do you want this big piece in the Wall Street Journal and sending listing concerns about President biden's health in some detail just give us and the details of how you went about that.

How do research it? Who did you approach? What was the backstory to that important piece of journalism? Wouldn't work came out.

I think it was like an earthquake this station for Wellington lighthouse and reading that I realised that there is no other person who does not work for Joe Biden

Hours with one-on-one heard it over 2 days and so I read it with that in mind of my got my goodness this man had access the president that no journalist has had and nobody aside from his family.

Was you people who work for him and that you know if you've got us together and we have directions to try to understand.

What is the president like behind closed doors and amplified by push back from the white house motors have one said that the president is old and a worry about security and the white house has been quite simple it has been if you could see what we stay behind the closed doors.

You would not have those concerns about it is absolutely fine.

He is sharp as a tack everyday and needles in the water internally thought that was an invitation to start really digging into this conversation is does meeting.

Winning 2-0, but we found that in some meeting is the president was fine was behave the way they expect the president to do was sharp was spontaneous and quick back and for all the questions, but another meeting is he would really lose his train of thought she would pause for extended periods of time and then people feel uncomfortable time is it in a way that meeting people wonder if a little bit but he would see details of power steering bottle and be an animal in cases for longacres were just really struggling just to hear what you had to say and so you know we do this recording it took months and not a very clear a lot of time for me to work the story and I deeply appreciate that support that we had from the Wall Street Journal very difficult job of persuading people.

When the police came out, what was the reaction they were very aware of every single detail that would be in it we gave honestly 2-weeks perhaps to respond and we had multiple access with the white house to let you know what we understood where they have they would react to the pain.

I think to me one of the most surprising thing about it, and I think it gets to the environment that we all live in is there was a sense that we put in the transparent most of us vs.

Republicans not all of them are Republicans and we are but we put that in there because it's a very it was a tablet to be writing about I was surprised that so many people discounted it just because they are sorting hat.

I think that if you want to be in Washington with some sort of view that if you are next to your name your wire and if you have a g next year truth-teller that really give us a democratic party 10 power of important reporting of the nature of American journalist report a tweet put something put on Xbox Jennifer Rubin of the Washington Post he said the widespread media condemnation of HRD front page Wall Street Journal article about President Biden slipping with I suggest we have memory to journalistic inflection point maybe the overwhelmingly negative response by other journalists, what was essentially the Promotion of a right-wing mean will reduce such a responsible for reporting this was posted by the White House deputy press secretary Andrew Bates you came under a lot of a soul but actually presumably now since the Debate has the reporting of the president's health and reaction to you.

Get there has been a change in reaction to understand.

You know when I was watching it I remember for 10-minutes and I was getting 1040 minutes and getting text messages from sources from colleagues and to me.

I just felt like I was watching in real-time with my sources and describe to me.

I'm in my throat is described to me and sober and so I think it was you know what to watch that you know the things I've been described to me and the things that paper being illustrated in real-time and the next two aspects of this story.

We want to unpack with the help of Jill and Annie are the Biden

A strategy in response to that debate, but also what it's like to deal with the Biden White House name you'll have experience with interacting with different administrations.

How would you categorise the experience of interacting with the Biden white house and try to find out what's happening with in its walls, White House to tell you I can tell you from covering the media coverage that I can tell you that the Binding Media strategy has been at the Cuban server and reporter on that which is they have one you know had a strategy of sidelining the traditional media and somewhere they have gone directly the president with right arm pads.

Give interviews two influences celebrity is he has given? I think it'll be reported by the New York Times on April than any other president had given.

I was around 50 interviews and its first two years of office is believed to have been.

and that includes 50 + 50 year old interviews two celebrities and influencers as well people like Jason Bateman order Barrymore you know we're not gonna Natalie and compare that to you know a couple hundred from trump a few hundred from Obama you know 100 from the bushes or are they said this is an administration that is really giving limited access my Yahoo put it on the white house party protocol for a long time and write a daily briefing you not talk about how postcode you know there was this kind of Shield around the president that didn't really come off as much as you would expect it to buy 2021 you know very very controlled strategy around the president of people who work with the president extremely loyal have been with him for Jackie if you no longer than myself and have been around me and

Very impermeable white house which I think has made that that's why the the coverage you have seen there's a lot of discussion of the present age, but it's been editorial coverage at raising the question.

You know people have asked for access to health records of both of you can hold you know it's these questions have been raised.

They have not been deeply reported in the sense that it has been hard to get Democrat vs on the record until now.

That's what you're going to change the phrase.

I'm going to remember an impermeable white house, I've not heard it put in those terms before I'm looking listening quite hear from Matt Bennett who's the executive vice president of a democratic thinktank called third way.

He said in response to the bait Biden should be doing Town Hall meetings with voters doing press conferences.

He needs to prove that was one bad night and not a pattern so far.

We haven't seen that level of activity Jill abramson.

What do you make it how the Biden white house has handled the media since the debate?

Well, they been more listener defensive Crouch and just recently announced.

You know he would do an interview with George stephanopoulos BBC news on Friday now.

It's an interesting choice because you're radiance me know that stephanopoulos, was you know it's democratic campaign advisor and work in the Clinton white house and created some degree of controversy more recently because he made political contribution to Democrats but you know I'm sure he is capable of doing you know what he needs to do which is a probing interview with the president where his questions should reveal whether you know Biden is up to doing such an interview or not and I think you know what have a very big audience because of that.

11th I think it's important which is for my career at the New York Times the paper employed a doctor physician name Larry KR fabulous journalist, he's not writing a book on the timely top out of Presidential hell, but every camping way before election day before the conventions.

He would do a sit-down interview with the presidential candidates and ask for access to their health records.

Send over the years there were various levels of cooperation from total cooperation to know but you know where is long gone from the Times unfortunately and no one has really stepped into that role since then what I think.

It's a great pity.

Real kind of Hall in American journalism and if I could just bring any lynskey back in from the Wall Street Journal and a in a you write that piece that keep his now others have joined you in that what's your what do you think I guess? What do you think to have a Nexus of crazy question is who knows but what do you think the White House needs to do at this point in our not just for the White House I can tell you that there are two main roads are reporting is going on right now.

I'm one is breaking around the president and that's something.

I think every newsroom in America is pushing very hard.

How is it? Is it and then the other is more pieces of that me and my colleagues used in which other moments.

Behind-the-scenes moments with the president of the United States for people who have come away shaking and somewhere ok, and how was your bluetooth in the media has on what people are thinking in America great question I really feel that in this case already paying for a year at least and they still support and I feel like this is the real story that in Washington that voters have been saying this to posters for quite a while.

You have had 70% in saying that even though many of them are supporting him so I think space for him.

That's the space for haven't even if it's a surprise.

Thank you so much for the Wall Street Journal also thanks to Jill abramson former executive editor New York Times and of course I'm rather from semaphore and the podcast mixed signals.

Thank you all so much next Media show we're going to media coverage of the J Slater Casey's the 19-year Old from Lancashire who went missing in the middle of June whilst on holiday in Tenerife since then but the mainstream and amateur online investigators have been reporting from the Ireland and the papers are still for stories about his disappearance and the case has led to some fairly wild series about what happened with the missing teenagers mother claiming the Spanish police were concerned that the noise around the case would hamper their investigation the search was called off on Sunday and a family told the Sun newspaper that the trolls have one more about the case and the challenges of reporting it first of all we joined by our BBC News colleague Garnett who flew out to Tenerife the week after.

Play went missing Nick thank you very much indeed for speaking to the media show tell us how you went about reporting on the case it was quite a difficult case to report on journalists get stories by talking to people and nobody was talking like this.

You talk to the police and the police will give you a series of lines probably through and then some it up in the evening and we'll be another day when they will start again then start answering questions again in this case that didn't happen the Spanish authorities were very differently to the British authorities in that they don't comment about ongoing live investigations and that's absolutely fine.

That's their system our system is different but the problem was that you had British journalist going in system expecting to be hard to have daily news conferences to have a senior officers around to be allowed to go out with the search teams as they wanted around.

The J in this really remote rural national park on the northwest tip of Tenerife very very brutal environment and one which was difficult to to search up pictures of great interviews and great comment and you been able to do really tell the full story none of that was available the only posters that went up anyway.

Tenerife will put up by Jay's dad and his older brother who flew out made the posters have got them printed up and print shop and then stuck them around the town of Santiago so very very concrete information the family.

Obviously was so distraught a what was happening, but they didn't want to talk either and so there was a huge vacuum and you know what happens when there's a vacuum gets filled and that was where the real problems started because the people feeling it seem to have no qualms about what they were saying it was as if this was a joke and they were just adding memes.

This was a real family going through real anguish and make the family is referenced amateur tick tock investigators.

Did you encounter any of them not as many as I've seen in the past I covered the story of the Terrible tragic story of Nicola bully who went missing in Lancashire where literally tripping over these amateur sleuths as they wanted around the world that many is a difficult place to get to it.

Can you can see the amount of Interest that the was in terms of keyboard warrior getting them.

There was no interest really and them getting on the plane flying four-and-a-half hours from the UK presuming.

That's where they're from and then driving from the airport be on the ground because they simply didn't do it.

So it was it was literally made up that was the thing that was seem to be so wrong and also one of the problems that there was stories.

Even though the people who are on the ground at the time of this happened the tourists that were in Tenerife have all come home is a different set of tourists that you have nothing to do with the storage.

So I think they got anything to say about it.

Is you know it is stretching belief really well.

Thank you.

I want to bring in Robin Ventnor who is the north of England correspondent the Guardian because Robin you also reported on the Nicola Billy case that that he was referencing there Nicola just a reminder went missing while walking her dog and before her body was eventually found in the river Wyre online speculation and conspiracy theories about her disappearance put the police and the family under intense pressure Nick was just talking about that but robin from your perspective.

Did you come across as he was saying a lot of those tiktok slowed as there are people have been killed.

And there was always been a bit of a presence of you know people wanting to get involved in one way or another and that was the case was the first case I was really quite taken aback by how many people were getting involved so it was lots of people visiting it kind of had its own almost like of tourism element to it.

Where people would come either want help under the guise of wanting to help the search not knocking doors going through people's gardens things like that.

You know people people would stay at home and look for you Google Maps or Google Street View and have an idea of what they think might happen to her and then through kind of desperation that nobody seems.

Searching in these areas that they thought needed to be search then off to go and do it themselves and only doing it because because it's popular you know because just to remind people that these people who aren't providing a commentary on high-profile cases and they're not I suppose following the established rules of crime report but they are popular and I suppose they doing what you know people would say they're doing what channel is too but now John I'll be slightly crowded out by them kind of Human Nature about it.

So everybody else interested and so you can kind of understand why you know what kind of drives into it, but there's also you know this stuff if they if you have like a tiktok account does this kind of stuff.

It's so heavily incentivised to go to the scene and do a live video from the scene and 2.

Can people into a kind of get reaction from people so they was awful.

Lot of that and an awful lot of kind of I don't know what you like Body Language experts or people putting to be eaten by body language experts going through videos of people being interviewed for example by the BBC first and then kind of pointing out places where they thought they could see that someone is lying or hiding something so it's kind of you know it is sort of reporting in one way, but it's also kind of just wild speculation and absolutely do they get in the way of you doing your job and do you have they made personal contact with you and if they what people say it? Yeah, I had quite a lot actually people making contact with me during that case in particular it was.

I think people assume when you're done is that you've got some kind of hotline to the police so quite often it was people wanting to contact the police and I think often had tried to contact the police and and had no response that they wanted so you know there's lots of emails when people would say you know the Police are looking in this place.

You know I really think you should be looking at this.

It was beautiful abroad who done quite a lot of speculation from from wherever you know maybe maybe trying to get me to look into things as well.

You know thinking that I have the ability to go trampolining all over a crime scene and thank you very much indeed for the moment Robin vintners from the Guardian we've got on it from BBC News let's bring in professor Craig Jackson from Birmingham City University who professor Jackson you spent a good while looking at the phenomenon of amateur online.

I just wonder what you've learnt about who these people are a patient.

It's quite unusual, but it's nothing you if you look back to the 1930s when you have the things like Amelia Earhart disappearing in the Burgh Bonnie and Clyde the Lindbergh baby everybody was speculating accepting those days.

Of course.

It was done by writing to the newspapers now of course duration of social media and your content being available within a couple of clicks it certainly grown in terms of the widespread availability but remember that the so-called armchair detectives digital salutes Karen Facebook take the lead from mainstream media and we need to remember that sometimes the mainstream media has its toll into the speculative and if you think about the missing Malaysian flight mh370 in 2014 or we think about.

Nicola bully Channel 5 live investigative speculative programs at the time so so the sunshine detectives do take the lead from mainstream Media in some occasions.

We never to be when John Lewis or other people are covering a story where there is a lot of information that isn't there.

It's not necessarily speculation putting the relevant questions about a story into the public domain isn't it and end in terms of the motivation of the people that you study the amateur sleuth to call them that what do you think it? Is it money is it the entertainment for them? What is it depends in the United States the armchair detective phenomenon has been going for longer and more organised so there you have amateur sleuths with their own public access cable channels with their podcasts with media outlets that are monetized and commercialised.

About truthsocial and Alex Jones he's essentially an armchair detective with a very very broadreach not wear that went but in the UK it is more amateurish and slightly more honest in away, and I would say that I think you can boil Down UK amateur sleuths into roughly four or five categories.

I think there is one group who are convinced that whatever the police and official agencies.

Do they are wrong and they like to attack when I was being done and sort of labelling the police and the authorities have been incompetent.

I think the second group of those were always believe that the victim or the missing person is suspicious and that there's an element of fraud or criminal assault group of these quite interesting but I called the divines that whatever the case of the scenario the situation they believe they have the answer they know where the missing person.

Hazel why they've gone missing and it says if they given rather than following of the evidence for these seem to be those who believe whatever is happening it so whether it was Joanna yeates going missing Madeleine McCann the types of muscle.

It's always a hoax and their approach with suspicion and then I think the group that there's some external criminal forces at play and at the missing person is indeed a victim and I think we've seen possibly all five of these scenarios played out in the case in the hunt for Jay ok.

I'm just going to ask you Robin what you think risks that these internet sleuths composed to the criminal justice system in your experience of what's been happening about the families complaining and saying well as we?

Mother has said you know the trolls of one of the biggest the biggest problem is when it comes to court cases, so we have in the UK certain in certain scenarios and send court cases, there are automatic reporting restrictions Germany snow to follow so for example if it's a sexual crime.

We don't need the victim and that is that sounded and then some surgical impose restrictions and cover corporate often straightforward by the members of the understanding reporting restrictions can be quite challenging and I think there's a they have been locked cases recently where for example it might be a high-profile footballer.

Accused of rape for example and members of the public think there's some kind of Conspiracy to cover up the name of the person who is the keys them when you legally if you wanted to report that name we went we won't be able to do so have you seen seen it with Lucy letby case for the reporting restrictions around.

I haven't got that directly myself, but there's been a big lack of understanding about how how you know these on what can be it.

Just means that things have to be reported much later, so when when the case is over and yeah, I think there's been a problem understanding that the biggest issue really and obviously you know court cases public that you know there's a couple of gallery any member of the public that wants to come and watch a court case, can you remove my car?

Which means you know it's not just have exclusive access to this you know there's all sorts of people that blogger there's YouTubers the public with some conspiracy theory going on that you know that can come to control and not necessarily understand or want to follow the reporting restrictions in there are challenges with people outside of journalism covering the stories you're describing for the reasons you're describing but not got it from the BBC if I could bring you in are there also benefits to people who are touching stories from a different perspective to journalists, can they sometimes add to our understanding they often ask better questions.

I will be honest.

I've been at stories.

Where people have come in and asked the question.

I was at 1 news conference one so just been held by the police and somebody was really giving the police very hard time are we all as journalist look around?

It was just a member of the public and they were really hammering the police and the police suddenly realised that they were being hijacked as a journalist that was asking what is a journalist I get to the centre of it doesn't anyone put can put the name put the word journalist in today.

They've biogon on X or whatever nowadays and consider themselves a journalist and why not in many ways, they got just as much rights as many other writers and journalists have to say that but there is a responsibility that comes with it responsibility is isn't learnt in a classroom is learn in long-term behaviours, and I think the danger is that people will go in with all guns blazing and really shout somebody and really take somebody to task not realising is Robin's Nest of they the other elements of a case the other elements of an issue.

That's going on the day really should back off at that point that something.

I don't know how things are going to develop.

I don't think that you can put the Genie back in the bottle.

Always going to be like this now and perhaps that they in the years to come the absolute will become slightly more professional we shall see thank you to all three of you for guiding us through that was not gonna from BBC news from the Guardian and Craig Jackson from Birmingham City University minutes of this program.

We want to turn and talk about the Glastonbury Festival one of the biggest in the world more than 200000 people were there this year including me and Eros I have because I was recording that Ros are you weren't I took a brief my journalistic duties to do a DJ set on the Saturday afternoon to pass through as you can imagine was quite an experience nothing like I've done before but I have to say just being there was quite an experience.

I've never been to Glastonbury before who is a course you never stop being a thermistor while I was there is no I wasn't reporting I was thinking because I knew you were nice to get ok now.

How is this different to covering other festivals because as someone who is simply attending.

Very different other festivals I've been to it is very different as I don't actually cover that many other festivals but compared with anything else I cover in the cultural beat that I do this is just incomparable partly because it's over so many stages most of the North on TV but around for you.

No such a huge.

It is like a town that you know end suddenly created in the middle of this working farm and you're wondering around battling through the crowd you got to pick your toilet it difficult to capture it all and you can't catch it.

All.

You know is there a fabulous cameraman a fabulous producer and we were doing stuff for TV radio online.

What's my colleagues doing the same but it was this year my own footage was the thing that punched out in the sense that went viral because people might remember the story of Louis Tomlinson setting up a TV in Glastonbury went out and bought one because they won't change the football they don't show the football in in on days, when there's no I just happened to be walking across, but I just happened with walking.

Saw this group of people watching the TV that was of these buckets and and what is this realise there was some the development of Louis Tomlinson my chance of them.

I went up there and have a lesson.

I'm slightly tight as I realise what's going on but have a listen very Glasto in sunlight stones in a little stand it was a little bit touching go at times give the signal kept going there now, but yeah luckily we got there.

We pulled it off made up of people with no from One Direction and so you got the clip which which was the what you wanted I got to keep it was all I want to but unfortunately my phone broke so I didn't give him for a bit longer and when I went back to look at it.

Thank goodness one clip, but all the other questions are asked in my phone and sometimes some weird stopping by press record and what you had press record, but your phone didn't keep that but you.

What's the weather of lesson because this is you know this is Ros Atkins that is fine as you think the media shows his finest but actually is this that Roses your remix the BBC News theme tune got a lot of cover.

Do you enjoy being part of the story Well That remix came about after an unlikely series events was actually the same day that it was an answer is going to be DJing at Glastonbury the media show had we had David Lowe the composer of BBC News theme as a guest then few people said to me on social media.

Why don't you see if you could get the the BBC News the remix? I thought maybe that's possible on a couple of days after David has been on the media showing message him and said what you think about this and you was really keen but he buys.

Drum and bass producers so we thought ok.

We need some help and I rang up to send a message to and then rang up a DJ and producer call Chrissy Chris and he very kindly said he get involved to SO32 been working on this remix but for some time and I guess when you make something.

It's good fun to see it getting covered and did get quite a lot of attention for a for a couple of days and one of the things that I really thought when I was at Glastonbury was just how much of the festival isn't film didn't catch up now.

Not saying that as a criticism but there is a lot that doesn't make it into the TV coverage and I wanted to talk to someone about this whether this is a strategic decision made the BBC's Mark Savage has been covering the festival for 20 years and we got in touch with him to understand Glastonbury Media strategy and tell me about it the big thing about Glastonbury is that it is experiential you have to be there to get a grasp of what it's like as you discovered last weekend and I think that's something.

A lot of stock by if you know people who been Glastonbury they all come back and they talk about it non-stop for the week and every single person has a different experience for me this weekend.

You know I was covering stages, but the bit that I've told everybody about is on Sunday night when we finally finished work till about 2 in the morning.

We wondered up to the Shangri-La area and stumbled across as ska band from Ipswich called the time said we danced for like an hour and that kind of marketing because people put that on social media and I'll swear is what drives people to want to go that are the tickets satellite in less than 3 hours every October because there is a fear of missing out.

There's this I did what you see in the television is only scratching the surface and to really stand it you have to be there and that's really smart marketing in terms of that television deal help us understand the relationship between the festival and the BBC

I think you don't know the people that work on that TV coverage the negotiations on what songs they are allowed to show from what sets go on right up until the very very minute and mint I remember one year I had to stand on the side of the West Holts stage while CeeLo Green was playing with his setlist and space for a signature and when he came off stage.

I had to take it to his manager who would take the songs that they were happy to be broadcast.

I think everybody thinks that the BBC just films it and it goes out live but there's a lot of negotiate to get that on the Air I wonder what you made of the deal between BBC studios in Glastonbury where they streamed the Julie Burton Coldplay headline assets globally that got a bit of coverage in in the industry press certainly will you surprised to see Glastonbury sign up to that? No, I think that's exactly what they need to do if you look at the impact of something like colour cello which is The Big Festival in America

Which takes place April May every year they live stream the entire weekend on YouTube and it has huge cut through not just the press button social media clips on tiktok and all sorts of places and that really helps them lead the conversation.

I just finally mark as people follow big cultural events including music festival as you say often through platforms like YouTube do you think the way that festivals are designed will change so that the priority is an always just the people who are attending but actually festivals become content creation opportunities for the business is behind them this year.

I got the feeling that that was staged as much as it was for the television audience as it was 100000 people watching in the field, so I think people are beginning to cotton on that this isn't just a live set and you'll see the effort that is made to make your Glastonbury set.

From what you play elsewhere even if you're doing other festival dates across the summer and there's a real cache about it.

There's a real career moment in being booked to play those big slots, but also think there's a realisation know that the people in that field may not even be here and natural audience you've got to go and push that music in a place where it's very hard to get your music heard the festival boundaries onto social media onto YouTube that was the BBC news correspondent Mark Savage talking down to bring in l Hunt is from the evening Standard and also covered are welcome to the media show I just wondered if you agree with what was was saying earlier about how different it is from what you would expect having whats.on.tv absolutely.

I mean it is like a city like you were both saying it for a Time It's the most densely populated area in the UK as a whole infrastructure to keep it going and so covering it is unlike covering anything else that sort of.

Jainism bootcamp because the minute you think you're off you've reviewed an actress coming back to the Preston to write up your walk past Louis Tomlinson with his telly which I I did and I took a photo of it not realising it was him.

I didn't go viral like-minded and I couldn't believe it.

I've had people from all over the world messaging you lots of Spanish people love One Direction it turns out all of Louis Tomlinson cos I've had a lot of tweets in Spanish it was on about 23k last time.

I looked everyone was replying so you should go and so did you not realise it was as you walked past you know people.

I just stopped to watch the game but these things happen all the time kind of in the corner.

That don't get shown on the TV as well, so covering it.

It is unlike anything else really in music journalism, and how do you physically do I know how I do it which is a battle through the crowds but actually not going to BBC compound where we work is right next to the pyramids day and you know I tend to think if I'm going to do a live.ly.

How to go that far away just cos it's going to take so long to get there and if there's a signal problem.

I just don't want that to happen, but are you free out? How are you doing it so in between the other stage in the pyramid Stage I sort of an area called interstage which all of the media work from in a little village fete style Preston that we working and I'll pass is get us down these I couldn't tunnels which kind of different corners of the festival so we can beat the crowds like magic race down to West Holts or whatever which does make it easier, but I think the main way is a lot compete some good walking boots suncream potentially I didn't go in the Press 1020 this time but was there a Preston this time? Did you go in? What do you is that where you work at all? Yeah? So it's it is like a white marquee.

Tent Village Hall style trestle tables and they do really good job of keeping has topped up with shortbreads a tea and coffee and so we just we dash back.

What's your sets and reviews in in the past and all together and how many of you in there is a lot of people 72100.

If not more yeah a lot of Janice still kind of scrambling and you'll find when you see the television coverage that wishing one aspect of the festival but actually the scale of it in the multitude of different performances is no criticism is involved in the TV coverage.

Very hard to get a cross in the media coverage mean.

There's over 100 stages across whatever Farm I think if you can kind of the Roman stages that people will set up just and it's incredibly difficult to cover I think in some cases.

It's probably a good thing that they don't have cameras in the NYC downlow awesome of the clubs really really late at night.

So it's just impossible to capture anything everything at the festival does go to be paid Close attention to what you're doing my head same question for you really Katie do they do they really kind of watch how they are being covered or they leave you to it.

They are very good.

Just leaving.

I think they little learners in the door.

Let us running around have fun.

Take it all in and report on it.

That's definitely my experience and in terms of the on the reporting and you want to get it out you hear people who are attending the first will always talking about all the phone connectivity be ok.

Do they make sure that the practicalities for journalists are as you need them to be the Wi-Fi is a challenge.

There's quite a lot of lying on the floor outside the press 10 on laptops desperately trying to tell her to get the copy across but for me.

It's part of the challenge of report from the middle of dairy farm in Somerset we just find a way to do it and then one is more the UK to the US wondering when I was there which is the BBC's obviously heavily involved in covering Glastonbury the TV coverage.

Is there an iPlayer you're there as I other colleagues covering it as journalists.

Are you left a review The the axe however you would like to lately totally separate is rather than any time when I cover the BBC I suppose.

I think I can do it you know Without Fear or favour and I think that's the same when it comes to my house tune all our attitudes to covering something that is a glass of November is obviously covered by the BBC and and broadcast by the BBC we are separate that always but if you want to hear us talking about Glastonbury from the lesson back to this if you don't hear the end of the item you can do that through BBC sounds and we should also say if you'd like to watch but the BBC's coverage of Glastonbury you do that through BBC iPlayer good.

See you and thank you very much indeed that sell hunt from the evening Standard thanks.

Also to Nick Garnett from BBC News to Robin from the Guardian and to Craig Jackson from Birmingham City we also like to thank you later and son from the New York Times formerly also Annie linskey from the Wall Street Journal and diary maraza from semaphore at all additions can be watched on BBC sounds, but that's it.