Read this: Sun Editor Victoria Newton

The Hunting at night terrorising his victims 12 years in jail world of Secrets the apartheid killer music Radio podcasts and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 Today a week on from huw Edwards guilty plea.

We speak to the editor of The Sun about her papers role in The Story So examining the latest twists and Turns in a baby reindeer Sager and we're asking why one of the leading organisations training journalists has launched a new course to teach resilience.

Reporters but after a week of violent disorder in England and Northern Ireland we're going to start with the experience of a media on the ground.

We've seen looting and race-based attack some centre hotels housing asylum seekers Syrians the prime minister Condemned as far right February what's it been like to cover these riots.

I'm join first by the editor of the Liverpool Echo welcome to the media showing thank you so much for taking time out on a busy day.

Just can you fill us in please on what happened in Liverpool over the weekend and shine full seems really it's it's it's very difficult to understand how the the death of three little girls can pick up behind you and this is the end result and we knew that there were protests in Liverpool at weekends and also counter protest of these two groups of people.

And not down the Pier Head the famous Liver Building that menu you will know and and there were clashes certainly involving the the group and the police and two police officers were injured and there was a lot of disturbance around the town centre.

They have been called from indeed and a far-right group 22 protester to mosque in the Suburb of Walton on Saturday night and and that's why I said that further trouble there was looting and Community Hub and library with set on fire for you one of the price of the challenges of deploying reporters of yours to these to these to the sun rest of this disorder.

How do you ensure that they stay safe? What are the what?

We would not send someone who was uncomfortable in going and covering this a lot of people wanted to those who are little bit less your we were totally respect that we have safety precautions in place and I'm not submit our parent company reaches been brilliant in supporting not just self but other titles across the group and you do have to be careful on Tuesday which was the first night of the the trouble in Southport itself after a vigil for the the little girls a member of our team was attacked expensive equipment stolen glasses broken left with cuts and bruises.

I know if people from other teams and he was fat at someone had to take shelter in in a local home.

So do you think that is because they are members of the local Media on the media? I don't think it's but whoever.

The fattest people are they certainly seals as part of the problem possibly or or suddenly reporting on and what's going on? So it's really challenging makes me really angry because we should be safe.

Enjoy your job and you don't even even back in the office.

We've been quite a few unpleasant phone calls this week and my TV what kind of phone calls a lot of phone calls that have been quiet extreme and their nature in terms of racist etc.

So it's really difficult but you know I'm really proud of the professionalism shows shown by our team and big determined to report from happening in essentially our community experience when I've been on the ground with all these things you do get a lot of abuse reporting for the BBC I was shocked by how how much are beauty get.

The BBC reporter I wonder when it comes to your journalist, do you encourage them to speak to the people who are possibly not the most violent once? Would you encourage them to speak to people on the ground? I think it really depends.

Obviously you have to know as you know you have to judge every and every situation and obviously think of your safety first and it's quite difficult.

It is as a lack of a coherent voice here in terms of you know we debated a lot about whether we use the word protest whether we use the word riot because they're quite loaded word responsibilities extremely seriously on this occasion based in Southport landing in Liverpool we didn't actively seek to speak to the protesters if that's the right word because the climate was just not right but you did take the decision to call them protesters.

We didn't we didn't call it but it was which was

From the streets essentially I'm afraid but of course Liverpool wasn't the only city where violence erupted Bristol was also a scene of them rest and Priyanka about from the Bristol cable.

Is there Priyanka welcome to the media show just tell us what happened in Bristol on Saturday night in Bristol we were made aware that there was going to be at demonstration of the right at 7 and account demonstration was organised an hour before that it will both going to take place in the same area which is a Parkwall Castle Park right in the city centre think everyone is really nervous about how it's going to go.

We had to football friendlies in the city happening that day at City and Rovers on either end of the of the city.

There was a pro Palestine demonstration.

I think it was a busy Saturday night.

Everyone was really worried especially seeing what happened in the rest of the country that could become a real seems like.

Elsewhere I have to say that in Bristol the scenes did get violent and ugly at times the counter demonstrators Outnumbered the far right by about 3 times as many and the police presence was huge and did successfully managed the two sides of Pop direct me to talk about when you when you mention the far right.

Did you did you speak to people that you would consider far-right? What did they tell you about their motivation and what were you thinking about and underwear you shouldn't engaged with them.

Yeah.

I mean I think it was always our priority that we are not our priority, but it was always our plan to the way that the protests escalated was that eventually the far right about Fraser went to a nearby.

Tell which was going to be housing refugees and asylum seekers they actually the counter demonstrators managed to form a blockade in front of the entrance that meant that no one could get through which is great, but they're actually arrived before the police even arrived and were had to endure quite an assault like for the protesters who came kick the punch them and the line for about 10 minutes until the police got there and managed to separate the two and will you there were you were you talking to these people were engaging with them when you concerned about your own safety at this point the names for moving so quickly that I think you just watching saying things unfolded and we get a bit caught up in some of the parcels at times after that when it when things down and the police have managed to separate people that there was a bit of a lol.

That's when we took the opportunity to speak to people outside of the hotel and I think the things we were really but the conversations with what happened.

I really really really new wants a lot of people complaining about the state of the country.

They were complaining about homelessness and the NHS and the cost of living on bike but where we challenged them is that while those were legitimate concerns.

What me and my colleagues or Morrison won't really pushing people on was the why is that the fault migrants in this hotel.

Why is that the fault of some of the most vulnerable people in our society who might have fled war-torn countries and the responses were you know I don't they nearly there wasn't a response some of the responses for racist some of the responses.

Yeah, just just a sense of they are gaining and it comes at our expense and I think it's the night went on those for the kind of conversations that we were we were having and I think that's what we've been left with his just understanding wire section of society has that.

That kind of idea I will thank you.

I one of the things that I was touching on with the fact that the disorder were sparked after The Killing of three young girls summer holiday dance class in near B Southport and that disorder that's Park miss information which spread rapidly online one account on expo stood an Arabic sounding name falsely claiming he was the seagull came to the UK by boat last year and that was the person who carried out is awful attacks on these young girls and that this person was on an MI6 watch list in the postman on if this is true.

Then all hell is about to break the claims were amplified online but where did this fall stories come from originally will earlier today.

I spoke to the times as time with her own in his reporting he track down what he believes to be the first person to post that false claim based on research carried out by a company that monitors misinformation.

So this was a think tank called logically which has open source investigation.

Expert and fat jackets and I believe that they have managed to identify the first mention of this Muslim name which is put around on social media as the potential support staff and this account was an anonymous account.

It was somebody who was quite well known in the anti-lockdown space in the anti-hero space and from there.

We saw this name go absolutely life bar across the internet and it was picked up about an hour later.

Bye this fake news website which was amplified again on live social accounts and even then on by Russia Today the Russian state news agency organisation decided.

I'm going to try and trace where this came from.

I just thought that it was interesting birthday, but the account appear to be from Britain because we're so used to this information coming from abroad now.

In the far right space from America and then what you what we eventually found out what's wrong with putting this is that she was a mother of three very well to do you even more than middle-class family they lived in a 1.5 million pound house in Cheshire CH3 kids growing up so that one would imagine their respective families and the community and yet her entry into this world of disinformation and radicalisation into some of the talking points of the right such as concerns about lockdown concerned about climate climate change scepticism men's concerned about net zero and she may have found herself at the centre one of the biggest stories of the Year how did you track her down? How did you find associated paid on shares before I think talk to you.

There was one and there are others as anti-lockdown campaigner and then from doubt you know we're just able to use a search term.

Electoral registers and and I contacted her by ringing her husband's mobile phone number on his website so he spoke to me and then and I said you know when we likely to write about her would like to get the story and then she phoned me.

What did she say to you about what had happened.

Did you accept you done? It was very upset about what happened.

She said that she had deleted the post quickly once you realise how are responsible it was and she said that she had made a terrible terrible mistake and that she has tried to rectify as soon as possible she deleted apologised, but she absolutely deny that she was the first person to send that date now.

She said that she has got it from another anti-lockdown accounts but your research suggests that is not the case and the Intelligence company working with logically that their research also suggests that they have not found any other source.

On the internet before her post, so where do you think she actually got the name? I made you think she just made it up it still seems extraordinary anybody would do that a lot court cases criminals where I can't believe they've done it, but the evidence clearly shows they have no it's what she's done is absolutely not a crime but it does extraordinary a woman from a well-to-do family would do this sort of thing she also doesn't have a history on in her own her Media career.

Is it basically is raised doesn't seem to be her bread and butter and butter is anti lockdown and net zero scepticism since my stories gone out then things will calm down a bit she has put her account backup and rather upsetting double down on her claim.not of the name but that she was not the original poster and posted more what we believe is Mrs bombed evidence about the post to try and claim that she was not.

And you chose not the name her in your reporting.

I know since other media outlets some other media outlets have but why did you take that decision so in the conversation? I had with her husband's and with her it was suggested that the mental health and family security could be at risk if the story went out with her name and photograph now clearly.

There's a great public interest in naming her because we expect people to think this honestly to promote themselves and then cause significant bad outcomes saying with rights based on this information to face public censure, but we do have to take a balanced approach taking into consideration other impacts of our stories the cautious approach other people have been able to identify her based on the information.

I provide in the story.

So it wasn't a total and it was just simply trying to remove some of the Heat and the temperature.

From the story that moment that was told me the road from the time talking about how a single piece of misinformation can spread I want to talk to Stephanie Stacey's technology reporter the Financial Times because there are other more high-profile names who have got involved in what's going on here in the UK including Stephanie Elon Musk just talk about how he's intervened in the right because he's been tweezing was all the things about Civil War being inevitable and following a statement from the prime minister criticising the attacks on Muslim Communities question why all community shouldn't be protected what's going on absolutely in the past few days Elon seems to have been eating non-stop about the UK and it started out possibly x 4 m was very indicated potentially in spreading the original name that Tom was talking about a lot of that was in the recommended for you on tiktok and then in the trending in the UK topic on x that that name kept.

Buy more and more people who might not have been following the original accounts that posted it and then later on Elon Musk started getting involved in may be initially not sharing that respond to some content that promoted writing or the shed images including the video that was originally posted by Tommy Robinson and how much does a response from Elon Musk have it has a lot he's got more than 190 million followers and some researchers have looked at the spikes engagement with tweets that he's just replied to he hasn't even reshared, but they get seen by so many more and that's included very notorious right-wing in Faro accounts and say how useful is X2 those sorts of people far-right influence is it their main platform or is it a gateway to networks? I think it is a bit of both to be honest since Elon Musk took over it Twitter and made it into x he removed a lot of the moderation staffed and then later on.

A lot of people that have been banned from Twitter back onto x so that includes Tommy Robinson who came back on the platform previous teams have 900000 followers yes, and I'm having his videos interacted with by the owner of the platform, so it's potentially become more of an active vessel for them, but I think it's also a bridge.

That's what the word one researcher used on to other platforms such as telegram where they can tend to engage more normal and less radicalize users who are potentially vulnerable 27 some of them this information storage and drop it off commerce.

Just put this in the last hour or so to online service providers operating in the UK talking about how to them about their duties also saying things will change even more with your online safety at this you to come in, but they do say you can act now.

There's no need to wait to make your sites and apps safe of users when they say that they mean.

Spare time for video material don't inside illegal activity.

I think the thing with x in particular expertise within particularly resistant to the UK's calls for moderation telegram did delete some of the groups that was spreading calls to violence on the platform after they were flagged but ex has been very resistant and has directly tagging Keir starmer in tweets and sort of resisting very hard any call for moderation mosques intervention and needs debate is any kind of president for a corporate figure with so much power and money taking such a strong position politically and another country's affairs and not that I can think of definitely not with his scale of scale of wealth and just pure platform.

He owns this platform that hugely influential and public discourse and he is.

I'm not sure but he definitely one of the most.

On it I don't think it's the last time that we're going to be talking about this but that we're going to end this bit for now.

Thank you so much too.

Priyanka Revell from the Bristol cable and Tim with the rope from the X Stephanie Stacey from you and Maria Breslin the Liverpool Echo please do stay with us because we're going to be talking to you again later in the program, but we are going to look now had a story that dominated the headlines before the riots began the former BBC newsreader Hugh Edwards pleaded guilty to serious offences involving images of child sexual abuse including other boy as young as 7, but allegations about Edwards first began in July last year after the sun ran a series of stories about on at that point unnamed BBC presenter who would allegedly pay large sums of money for explicit images of an individual image later than Edward's was the subject of those allegations the police later decided no criminality was involved with earlier.

I spoke to Victoria Newton editor of The Sun just a little bit.

Pokémon am I asked her what her reaction was when she heard that you Edwards have been charged.

It was a Monday morning that my news editor came rushing in the chief reporter to say we think you Edwards has been charged and obviously I was shocked we'd known that he'd been arrested or the police would never confirm it.

We knew it was right, but I was really shocked and I was shocked at the charges level of the charges for child abuse images so you feeling of disgust when we got the full details of those charges category A I think I just felt a sense of disgust you said you knew we been arrested.

How did you know just sources around around him.

We're not enough that you thought you could report it.

No we all try.

We went to the met Bury news paper.

So the room should have went round and I was certain it was true, but until you have them that confirm it.

You can't go with it.

And I know lots of the report is tried that and they were met with the wall of silence and as you say those crimes shocking and horrific involving making indecent images of children, but they are entirely on your story back in last July the police discovered it all on the phone of an hour convicted paedophiles your story was about top.bbc star.

You didn't name accused of giving 18 more than £5,000.17 in return for sordid images.

I'm interesting the conversations that you were having in the run-up to publication last summer because how did that story come about? When did you first hear about allegations? Thank you ever so to be clear the sun have been getting information on Edwards behaviour going back to 20:18.

So what we've been witnessing with lots of young men usually coming forward and pattern of behaviour.

It was always the same modus operandi.

It was people will get in touch with him on social media or he get in touch with them on social media.

He take it immediately on to WhatsApp and more private conversation and very soon money.

Changing pictures with be received, so we knew that before this family came to us with those other stories.

We we always looked at the individual and the public interest in that.

No, that's not not interested, but this particular story stood out because this was a young person at the heart of this who was in a desperate situation highly vulnerable and the parents felt they had nowhere else to go they've gone to the they talk to the police and they got nowhere and they just wanted the payment to stop so that's why they came to us in desperation and you decided not to know who it was back then.

Why was that was that legal advice around his right to god? It's very complicated there were so many factors at the time of course libel privacy roller consideration.

We didn't feel it was a libel issue, because we had so much evidence which we did at the time, but that's a separate matter.

They're obviously issues of privacy for both the individuals involved and we were so careful not to reveal any gender of the young person and a geography nothing.

You didn't want to do anything to put pressure on that young person also I was also thinking about Mr Edwards is family as well and is interesting because you decided not to name him decided not to as you say gender the young person at the time.

You just calling the young person, but you're not calling them young man what changed so this weekend and the wake of shoes pleading guilty person finally did an interview and he revealed he was a he so I think from now on that is ok to be clear all newspapers to be having conversations with him for the past yeah and in my mind.

He was highly vulnerable and I didn't want to go down that road of doing interview with him, but he has since come out and spoken and said that he was groomed it was an improper relationship and he's has revealed that he's a male.

So that's fine and you got a lot of criticism at the time the initial story was about a 17-year old which made the

Explicit images between them a possible criminal offence but then the paper rain back on that do you stand by that original story we never said it was a criminal offence anybody reading that he knows the law with no, it's not images for to someone with someone under 18.

It's a very grey area and it has to be the person receiving the complicated bit of law from my understanding of it the police would have had to have had a picture from Edwards phone proving the biggest if that image for Everton defence and people were calling for your head my former boss James Harding tortoise Media he said if the BBC had done that run a story like that the person BBC News would have had to resign and he was in a listing a catalogue of reasons including that your story didn't report anything that the young person involved was saying the fact that the police said there was no criminality the fact that even

Naming him it was clear that you had was would be identified quickly as he was that you were defaming him was wrong.

He was wrong and we had loads of evidence that story the pre legal work that went into it.

I had Casey's we had legal conferences and we were totally happy with the evidence of course the truth of what happened was because very quickly the BBC suspended, but Edward's wife came out and named him and then said he had mental health issues.

We made a strong decision at the time that we weren't going to publish any of the evidence of any more background, so that he could be the problem for that for us with a big one because everybody was saying when you must know the story up and when we haven't we had lots of evidence which we will stand over to BBC restoration and what's your consciousness about his mental health that stopped you publishing is that what you're saying obviously the rest of that is absolutely we had text WhatsApps social media messages bank statements and as

From the young man himself this weekend he packed up all those details and is that because I remember the time because I reported the stories.

I'm sure you're aware at the time the sun gamer.com evidence to the BBC last summer was used instead.

I think went back 6 years.

What was in it some of the details that ring that we've already published since the guilty plea so young BBC producer who complained that he felt sexually harassed by Edward when he was working knows most notably during Prince Philip's funeral BBC website since from that, so that was in there.

There was a story about in breaching lockdown to go meet another young man doing the height of lockdown having just reported it on the news.

There was some other examples as well as a 17-year old boy who got exchange with him, then he published a couple of others that we do we have been published yet and just to be clear.

You don't have any evidence that you had was interested indecent images of children that don't know have something.

Is this is so much more workplace and young man and inappropriate and abuse of power using his power and status as the trusted voice of the BBC often sending selfies while the desk as a BBC and you said it's not open just as the sun as that is not open Justice the new Edward name wasn't released last November when he was arrested for making and he was charged.

Why do you say that? What do you mean the fact that the public should have a right to know when somebody's been charged with such a serious offence but often you find that with cases of sexual of all types of sexual abuse the only way that you can find people guilty in court often is more victims to come forward.

So I'm a firm Believer that that the arrest you have been revealed at the time.

The world has changed as I'm not saying how old you are a how old I am but you know what time is journalist the world is changing back in the day so regularly new when people celebrities particularly were charged.

Arrested and now there is a right to privacy isn't that people have that there has been some rulings that have been set the tone for what people can and can't can't publish and then you take a huge risk publisher if you decide to say OK well.

I'm going to name that person is arrested because it's in the public interest you would potentially liable to be sued for billions of pounds.

So you imagine being small publisher or a local newspaper you never gonna take you can have a bunch of lawyers in the room and I think it won't stay around one of the elements of this story.

I may have had maybe had 20 hours to the room it felt like that anyway, but ultimately the Loneliness of being an editor often is when you've had all the legal advice you can in the the advice around it so which is our self regulatory body and you have to make the decision and that can be quite lonely and so when you get attacked for that you can feel quite lonely, but you know we have an army of as good good people who help us.

Hopefully make the right decisions and at any point.

Did you think we've made a mistake? Did you think with all this attack that was?

You know deep down on your hair that you'd make it made the wrong decision that it was an invasion of this poor man's privacy.

No no I didn't but I did feel and I have to say it was BBC News who did this point that change that story in terms of us being vilified by most of the friends of Mr Edwards and there is people work for the BBC was when the BBC news at six ran a letter from the man saying that the story was totally rubbish and they gave us an hour's notice on that I had already been in discussions with BBC News saying you understand his highly vulnerable.

He's been he had she had was on the phone threatening him that he was going to destroy his family if you went ahead with the story and you have to make it stop so that person's under so much pressure and I did warn BBC News but they just ran that anyway and that was a change the the change the narrative disclosure.

I was the one who was I didn't get myself, but I had the letter and I was the one who ended up reporting.

And I felt all the way through that process I had to just be very clear all the way through I couldn't check this information.

I couldn't do you didn't get what your journalism you know we'd spend the lawyer obviously but that's slightly different.

Do you have any sense by the weather was wondering who was paying for that lawyer.

I'm assuming.

It's you Edwards young person that has had no money or do you think about that one? So it's pretty speaker but we expected him to do something like that although to be fair.

I thought around the story.

I thought he would resign immediately and he didn't in today.

Show we're also talking about the riots and violent disorder that have been playing out in the past week or so on your front page today your editorial Attax Facebook and other social media giants for a huge profits while allowing their sites to be used to incite violence and pedal lies and it looks like for the front page of the Sun you very much putting them in the dark absolutely why don't you?

The newspaper or broadcast BBC is regulated the sun has self-regulation newspaper self-regulation we could not produce that sort of material and incite riots and not be shut down to me that they can get away with this.

I've been getting away with it for years and was with her the prime minister and the government took strong and robustly condemning them.

It doesn't seem to be stopping and does it clearly there's been a lot of conversation about what's driving this why it's happening.

What do you say to people who are tracing a direct line from material you and other media published to where we are now so in 2015 when Katie in the Sun she like in migrants to cockroaches in 2017 Trevor Kavanagh used to be your political editor use the phrase the Muslim problem in your paper.

Would you allow such comments to be published now in the Sun that looks be clear I been added to since 2020.

So that's before my time.

You will not find anything like that like those things in the newspapers.

I have edited however.

I don't think it's fair to say.

What was seeing playing out on the streets now is a result of the mainstream media coverage.

I think you took to social media and disgusting characters like Tommy Robinson and the sun I suppose was always there always said the person on the street.

That's how we saw it.

I wonder if you feel you still are I'm in the critique of the Legacy Media I suppose applies to you as much as anybody else that the big section of society get their information from social media not from the likes of you.

Will the BBC absolutely the BBC can't quite decide whether we really powerful or not helpful at all anymore as we talked about case in the selection, but I still think newspapers are at the heart of much of a conversation in the UK you've seen that during election times often TV take their lead from newspapers.

So they certainly still have a role to play and online reaches of ice huge as well.

So but do you think you've lost touch the group of people that you might have been more had more influence over in the past.

I don't think so.

If I'm with a political coverage around the election in the Sun readers debate, we would any news brands to get a some leaders debate with the prime minister in the Prime Minister in waiting now got that because I wanted to talk to our group of leaders because they swing voters so I do think there's some suede air and I remember when we I was talking when I did a story about the sun endorsing Keir starmer and labour just the election.

I'm always interested in that behind the scenes stuff.

Is it a straightforward as a murder whether it's a refund or a lot and coming to you and saying we want the sun to support his domino that were clearly.

It's not always decide and many many discussions going back and then we probably talking about it for the last 2 years wondering when the elections going to be in.

It's always exciting when it actually happened.

Isn't it? And then the other winnings well the reality with this one is that we thought we wait to get our own leaders debate we get both leaders in front of our readers and see how that went and and and

How many months before not true 100% not true and the overwhelming message? I was getting from sun readers from the letters and front from everything but they wanted change stories couldn't deliver that they've been in power for 14 years which had arrived at a very difficult time when they become a rabble themselves.

They couldn't organise themselves.

They couldn't Govern the country because you're too busy fighting within themselves, so it became much more clear that if people wanted change and that's what they did want then labour should be given a chance, but thank you very much.

Just before you go I do want to ask the sun as part of news news group newspapers in the middle of an ongoing story of allegations of hacking and unlawful information Gathering so I wanted to ask in your career.

Have you personally have Active phone or gathered information on lovely? No I have not I'm not going to talk about an ongoing court case fits your needs and thank you very much.

Well.

Lots of you over there with Jake kanter.

Who is investigations editor a deadline and someone who is covered the huw Edwards

Throughout at welcome hello Jake I wondered what you made of all that when it comes to what Victorian he was saying about the Redwood situation great to get their side of this story after the events of last week.

I think the rights and wrongs of them publishing were discussed in detail last year, but I think it's clear the paper vindicated and I think that is a reasonable position given the event of taking place in the sun did not know and Victoria made that clear that about these allegations and subsequent charge is around child abuse images, but what they did do very clearly was with a darker side to hear out with his character and I think that has been at the core of all of the stories that we have seen subsequently and yeah.

Sherwoods, I think it's going to be possible to understate how untouchable he was he was a trusted national figure some wonder people brought into their living rooms and a respected enormously and felt safe in His Hands during major national moments and what date was chip away at that and we now you see a very different side if you Edwards is worth me saying that she did say she didn't feel vindicated.

Just more more more sharks, but I remember where I'm sitting in the studio last week when the story was breaking about Hugh Edwards and we were talking about it then and that then we didn't know quite whether the two events were related.

It's absolutely weren't in terms of and what the police were investigating came from a totally separate source, but do you think she would have come to Justice without the work of the sun?

She would of I suppose speculating it from what we know now.

He was obviously identified through the phone of another individual call Alex Williams who is distributing these images and I guess it's entirely possible that the police would have identified by Edwards regardless of what the sun have reported last year and we would be in a similar position, but I think what the sun did was they opened the Floodgates I think and they asked and their reporting also are some really important questions about not just you ever see his conduct in his private life but also his professional conduct it is clear.

There are serious questions about how he interacted with BBC employees who work perhaps a bit more junior than he was and it is interesting that.

Critical of the BBC's report also think the BBC News has supported the sun's reporting to its own stories on BBC employees who have raised questions about whether the conduct and the messages that they have received from him and he's clearly disgraced.

Obviously I'm your love him in Wales has been painted over has been stripped of his titles.

Do you think I mean you go to store about this? I think that you know they're asking you saying the trusted face of BBC he announced the death of the Queen Queen Elizabeth that footage now.

Will that it will we ever see that again on the BBC or anywhere else is doing a couple of things as far as it's archive is concerned the BBC has moved to remove him from I guess non-use content so we've seen an episode of Doctor Who come down in which he featured he's done.

Shows like the great British Menu which have also been taken down from iPlayer in recent days however things like what you just described him announcing the death of Queen Elizabeth II that remains on the BBC news YouTube channel it also remains on the BBC News website and those are bicycle moments.

I think they've you told you may be better place to to reveal the important moments in British history, and it may be a disservice licence repairs to scrub them from the archive mate.

Have you on about the latest developments around baby reindeer which is one of the most watched Netflix shows in recent months and another story that you covered in depth.

We talked about this Saga on the show before but just remind us will be.

Seen the programme what the hit dramas about in the background all this on Netflix attends millions of views.

It's one of the biggest shows ever and essentially it is written by a man called Richard Gadd and it is at his own experience.

He's a comedian who is allegedly stalked by by someone he knows and what you've seen a rock around the show is the blurring lines between art and reality we it was billed as a true story and very quickly after the series broadcast or head and sorry streamed on Netflix the individual that is accused of stalking Richard Gadd was.

As a woman called Fiona Harvey and Fiona Harvey has essentially taken Netflix Court she is 470 million one of the for defamation describing the series one of the biggest lies in British history Netflix told the UK Parliament in May that baby reindeer with a quote true story of the horrific abuse suffered by the writer Richard Gadd at the hands quotes of a convicted stalker, but they've now Road that's right.

Yeah, Benjamin king who is a policy director here in the UK for Netflix gave evidence to Poland and we revealed that line revealed last week that Netflix has since clarified that position and made clear that Fiona Harvey or Martha who is she is known in the series I was not convict.

And in fact, I was only subject to a court order that despite the show builders a true story and her being shown in court going down for a stalking conviction effectively and we will be seeing that you mentioned in he submitted recently a court statement supporting Netflix is there to get Fiona Harvey suit The Defamation suit struck out in America where it's is being heard.

What was in that? I'm not stuck out for you and that for the first time last week, but we got off first look at Netflix's legal Defence of baby reindeer as you say it failed this motion to dismiss the lawsuit and included statements from Richard garden, and some others speaking Netflix is trying to make two arguments here the first is that the character Martha is not Fiona Harvey it's a fictional character based on fictional.

Traits and the second is that that she cannot be defined already because she is already tarnished earring character through her actions in the past I disable from Richard Gadd and a former colleague of Harveys a woman called Laura Ray they detail the electrics meant that they've suffered at the hands of Fiona Harvey and they both describe having Court what does against her? So you can put this dual Crowland defence from Netflix meanwhile Fame is out for Glory also quite American I don't you get British law is saying that kind of thing yeah.

This is playing playing out in the Hollywood chords.

Oh, we're going to get a bit of a bit hyperbole.

I think I would say this I would say this I think this is getting a bit lost.

I think in the legal noise around the show the baby reindeer.

British success success story I talked about the ratings that it was getting on Netflix I don't enjoy the other thing I should say it's got 11 which is significant breakthrough in this way since probably fleabag well that we go will see whether it's your Dad starts rising of the next Bond film or something anyway.

Thanks.

Jake can say really interesting but I got a question for us all now which is what qualities.

Do you need to be a general because the nctj the National Council for the training of journalists is developing a new course to develop resilience in people who want to become reporters.

They say the younger generation lacks confidence when it comes to tasks like cold calling and phone interviews so how widespread is the problem is it a problem well to discuss it all on joined by Laura Adams head of journalism Skills Academy at the NC

Welcome, just explain why you're offering these courses now.

Yes, thanks, so the nctj has been committed to working with industry and the schools at universities and colleges that deliver NCT NCT go training to discuss you know the important topic and safety and resilience as a broad topic 2023 we put together and Industry panel, so we can abroad and employees from across across the industry together to achieve discuss issues around so I'm one of the things that has come through during a savoury the last 9 to 12-months is that younger reporters or lease early career coming into the industry a finding that they're struggling with their confidence to carry out tasks that you know that.

We've always done.

You know I got you know that you know that things like as you say cold.

Have to go through that can be partly terrifying of surviving through it yeah absolutely but I think what's happening now is that because communication methods of changed so much over the years now.

That's a generation coming through you know what sort of finding some of those task a little bit more challenging you basically saying they don't pick up the phone in normal life.

So it makes it more difficult in real life.

Is that where the dance from that? What is it about could be I mean I would say that there's a variety of factors that contributed towards this you can't ignore the fact that communication has changed.

I've got 5 year old daughter if you never picked up the phone and she's just on social media and I think we still saying that comes through the different generations and it only picks up the phone if it's Dad calls he ignores my calls.

Dad's calling he knows that it's serious and it's got to pick up absolutely how do you teacher than how in your course? You gonna teach resilience and confidence? What are you doing practising making phone calls at work? Yeah, I mean it's two things that we doing we are just at the moment.

We developing a course around building confidence and this is provide practical tips on doing some of those tasks and we are also including contributions from industry.

So you know relatable journalist experienced it.

You can show how they've ever come out and you know office and chips as well.

I think it is important to say that we really want to support young John is coming in until do this ultimately you know this is the Next Generation these are the people that are going to stay in our industry and I think it's important that we provide training that supports them and we don't.

I give the impression that you know this is a generation that can't do things that's a lack of ability or lack of ones, but it just kind of shows that they do you need to call me wanting to succeed and I'm sure they will see them well by the Fabulous journalist of the future that we will need the Stephanie Stacey is still here from the FTSE I'm looking at you and I'm going to I'm going to cost you in the role of the young journalist is you look very old but is it when you listen to that is it a fair assessment do you think of language and less that you don't like to pick up the phone as much as taps other people used to it.

I don't know yeah.

I mean I'm 25 but I think so but definitely what you mentioned about the general culture around phone calls is probably true.

I would say from my personal life.

I wouldn't call school any of my they would think I was dying and needing help and I think it's a get a kind of thing that is not such a normal thing to do in personal life people mate plan a text send a text.

So in advance, so I think that is definitely something that people struggle with and in your journalism then do you tend to send messages voice notes rather than pick up the phone or I tend to call you can't get around about the cooling is still probably fundamentally the best way in especially if you need to read someone fast.

I think it's also sometimes.

Helpful especially if you are communicating with someone else you might not be so comfortable with with cold calling to send a text in advance check.

They're ok with you giving them a ring and I have to get on their level of communication.

I have also taken some people through voice when they've been more comfortable with that which has been helpful if it's what makes them be able to express themselves a bit and in terms of you realising calling with the way of them to do it as a journalist did that come up grantley, did you realise it from the beginning with anyone tell you that we following our people in The Newsroom who were making calls? What how do you think you learnt it? I think I kind of knew it I said anything but if you are interested in becoming a journey.

Read and see and but definitely I think and I'm sure this is true for everyone.

It's not something that is the most comfortable thing in Italy so a lot of it for me that made it easy to get to grips with hearing other people in the office making those calls and also just doing it like you said that the practise.

I think some of it could just be once you've done it and people are generally pretty nice.

I so remember that as I see and listening to people on the phone and thank you know that's how you do it some copying them and then that's why people were saying during covid it was difficult because people weren't listening to me all the people or people who had more experience jobs in Learning Network there's a lot of unnecessary judgement around these anxieties and you thinking added to would respond kindly if a young German share their concerns around.

I don't feel comfortable calling people in Albir title.

No no I think they should I think it's still think you need to learn but that doesn't mean that it's wrong to be nervous.

I want some tips to get started with and

It is potentially important to note that might be a skill that seems obvious if you've been in the business for a while or just it was something you used to do it is people might need a bit of advice for well.

I think we should definitely bring him Maria Breslin how she's the perfect person from the horses mouth look like a horse manure but editor of the Liverpool Echo and therefore knows what is it something that you've noticed this for a start yeah, and I said I think you're right.

It's generational definitely and if we were talking about our children my daughter is never off her phone, but she would make a phone call on it.

So it is a generational thing we found reported for getting into her a private room to make a phone call because they don't necessarily want to make it other people in in there is being a relaxing vacation.

They are not always see them and then put yourself out there when I went out on the scene.

Do I do have sympathy? I think you know a lot of the young reporters in our Newsroom lockdown happened at capitol points in their life.

I think some of them had to had to do that training remotely and I think you've got to look at some parts of the industry where they may still be working from their bedrooms.

So it's you know it's not it.

Can't be easy or would you do we were just talking about you know would you feel comfortable you feel comfortable going to an editor and saying that do if someone of your joints.

Can I find it really hard to make phone calls? What would you do well? We really do support them that has happened that does happen definitely know people have different different skill sets we absolutely have to have to recognise with very much and office organisation so we encourage people to work in the office.

So 5-days week like you said you learn from your parents you learn from the people.

Next year we try to sort of Buddy people up, so they can listen to more experienced members of the team and if that really is the problem we focus on the skills that they do have no you wouldn't turn up to the job if they said I find it difficult to my phone calls or knock on doors and I don't think that's fair, but what we would really do with this support them to overcome those challenges so that they could you know babe good all-rounder well accepting that maybe just not if you wanted to but I'm going to ask Jake counter first bring you in on this.

I mean we all remember they said of hideous phone calls that we've had to make all you know predict Years Younger journalist knocking on doors wherever I just wondered when you when you listen to what we talking about here.

What do you think it? Is it is it sending a I don't know triggering you and lie be the first to admit that I used to get nervous before making phone calls when I was a slightly green eyed jealousy and I still do I think I think it would only be fair to to admit that.

Never been this or swashbuckling phone hand but I also recognise that it's really important to the job.

I think the thing I always say too young journalists is reporting in essence is about staff cross with people and and then hopefully they will impart information based on that trust and is much harder to gain someone's trust behind emails or DMS you have to speak to them either on the phone or in person and very often that will take your reporting in directions that you had not expected as well and I think both of those things are really important about the lock something that we will have had to do in the past is $1.

I think I've discussed this with you before but is the door not becoming something actually the jealous lead have to do much less these days people have digital footprints.

Don't they in and then it's much easier to find out information that we may need or or or seek to find out we might.

At the end of the day sometimes the information that we need to tell the stories we want to tell and is on the other side of the door and we have to knock on as it's much more mixed picture these let you know it's still is is part of the job and you know we do encourage people to to knock on doors when when did that that's what we need to do, but it's it's not not 40 many doors in my time and it's certainly not not as bigger part of the job today as it used to be the last word from you.

Hope to have you ever have never knocked on the door technology person anyway, but maybe you never know what do you think about next door? That would be good if you could knock on Elon Musk Dawn I mean, where would you find him somewhere one of his many houses would yet or jets as they must do so he has popped out of place well anyway.

Good luck with that going and going hunting out straight away.

Thank you so much, Stephanie

From the ft also to Maria Breslin from the Liverpool Echo Laura Adams from the nctj and of course Jake hunter from deadline.

Thank you all for listening for your company watching and listening you can catch up on BBC sounds and iPlayer we're going to be back at the same time next week, goodbye.