Read this: TV's "culture problem", origins of Trump's pet eating allegations, the race for AI supremacy

My name is Annie MacManus and my name is Nick Grimshaw how long have we known each other probably 20 years now worked in and around music.

I love so it's not Avatar 4 podcast but it is good so we put the world to write a little regards to music.

It's all the stuff.

Do you want to chat to your mate over pipe sidetracked with me and Nick listen BBC sounds music Radio podcasts and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week Donald Trump's migrants eat pets claim is the US elections most viral meme so far.

We talk to the journalist track down the source of that story David Rennie is here.

Just returned from a six-year posting The Economist man in Beijing also looking at the race and personal rivalries.

Heart of the artificial intelligence industry with a authority Tommy Olsen and Lara O'Reilly senior correspondent Business Insider is with me to talk through some of the other media stories this Alara hello many of us was surprised yesterday.

I certainly was at the news that tortoise media are in talks to buy the Observer it's not the company many people will know just just give us a brief outline of you, so it's a media startup about five or six years old with your former colleagues James Harding who is the BBC director of news and its positioning is Sony's so in-depth investigations analysis podcasts to make sense of the news with really well reported journalism rather than of phonetically trying to break NewsDay today sounds good.

I'm don't think we're going to be slow today.

We've got a lot to get into this program, and I will definitely come back to that story later, but we're going to start with Mondays news that Hugh Edwards has been given a 6-month prison sentence.

suspended for two years after he admitted charges of making indecent images of children covering the story myself this week after say the court proceedings brought home once again both the cooling criminality and the suffering of there's children involved in those images and it is really important to distinguish that with Edwards described by the BBC chair as the villain in all this wider questions about how the BBC and not just the BBC treats the big stars of news and entertainment, but his is just one of a series of claims about inappropriate behaviour by Talent from using this case to Strictly Come Dancing and The One Show and joining me to talk about whether the British TV industry has a culture problem Jonathan shalit OBE chair and fear of entertainment rights group welcome, Jonathan Baroness Helena Kennedy who is chair of the creative Industries independent standards authority which

The hopes to tackle harassment and bullying in the creative Industries welcome to both of you at welcome Baroness Helena Kennedy management.

I'm not picking you up.

It's true even say the word Talent caused this problem because it suggests that people behind the camera on Talent it up the status of those in on-screen.

Do you think in the end power imbalances exist and they're simply effect of showbiz imbalances of the fact of any Industrial Estate think about the creative and television.

I think I look at banking.

I look at footballer.

Look at sport people have passed them famous.

They have power and people look up to them and reveal them.

That's not an excuse but I think it's wrong to say television people talented people in the public eye worse than people not the people who get paid a lot like in the BBC's new director-general and then people who get paid as much if not more.

In the boss because their Talent and I suppose you're right that football is like that the pancakes not like that, but I disagree with I think a lot of industries have got a lot of people have powerful get treated.

I think it's important to separate the weather's some other people who is a convicted self admitted criminal and that is a lot of people been accused of things at the moment, but not convicted self missing criminals.

They've done things out of inappropriate in the workplace, but the very big difference in inappropriate and doing what you shouldn't do it in a day today workplace than being a criminal layout the distinction that there isn't one of us was criminality but there was a whole lot but will come back to swirling around what the BBC if I had a BBC treated him through other bits of my TV when you have retreated not employed people if someone arrested you can't Father stop paying.

I'm sorry whatever kind of company you are you are innocent till proven guilty evening lots of people think.

Until a call goes you are guilty and employer have a legal obligation hadomae correct me if I'm wrong but I can't not pay employees because they get arrested for him.

I've done come back to that because I do a bit more of a distinction between the criminal criminal side and other side but will come back to you, but just a wider problem it out as you see it when it comes to TV do you think this industry has a famous faces listen Jonathan's absolutely right.

This is not just about television on the 76 has the problem of sexual harassment and bullying relating meaning relating to power imbalances as you've already described is particularly exacerbated in in those Industries are those sectors where where the power is relating to sell celebrity and therefore.

It makes it even even more visible and less able to challenge and so young people often do in nose.

Fuel silence about raising inappropriate behaviour whether it's whether it's playing at speaking like people in grace of ways or sexual and and they feel that they can't do that when someone is of such a value to the interview for which they work until they know that you go up against that person is going to really probably win that career so that the power imbalances existing problems in education.

I did a report Oxford heading a college and I recently children really interested Union weather with and problems of the sexual harassment and bullying and there isn't Jonathan right.

It's not confined to the area, but they're gonna problems in the creative Industries television film in orchestras in here and in places where young particularly young people basically waiting for there for that.

And they just feel that they can't enough now self-employed there often free laugh, so it there particular problems in the creative Industries and that's why I'm sending created spell show independent later what you want to change just in terms of making it isn't just the BBC assuming when it comes to the TV and broadcasting wide-field left this morning after he admitted lying to bosses about an affair with a younger male colleague ITV updated its policies after claims there been a failure to manage top Talent Jonathan as a talent Supremo how do you advise dealing with stars who threw their wait around or indeed? I just giving a different status well.

I think when you say, how do I deal with stars who are the ways around it different status implies a lot of stars and Talent still do it.

I think you don't but I think what happened in the last couple of years has changed the paradyne.

I think people are now held accountable.

I think all staff.

Team members however Jr has been in power to go and Report there, but anyone who treats an appropriately so absolutely I'm not saying the system was fixing is perfect but I think people listen to this program should know that by huge improvements and television and I'm talking to the BBC I know personally led by Tim Davie at the top the culture has changed the BBC and people just wouldn't get away with that kind of behaviour.

I think again hear you didn't is private.

I'm at home away from work.

It's something at work and it gets reported is much more easy to pick up and identify, but if someone's doing something on their private computer the prisoner home.

I'm not sure how much the workplace can know what's going on.

I think the bigger picture is Talent and well-known people across all areas of the workplace.

No, they're going to be accountable and it helps accounting misbehaves.

I think they know you fall much further if you if you misbehaves look at Jay blades this week.

I will tell if he's been convicted on offer of guilty but just the fact he has now been arrested.

The innocent we don't know but he's not had his career in tatters because of possible behaviour let's look at how changing the industry might happen Baroness Kennedy your new body the creative independent standards authority wants to improve things but I suppose people if media companies on companies doing their jobs.

Probably wouldn't need to exist at all the and Jonathan has picked painted the picture of change and it's it's indeed right since Harvey Weinstein and the me too movement and gone and we discovered that any agency work for and talented people and performers and they're not just the famous.

There are young talented people who still waiting for the break and at what we discovered is that there's a there's a lower tolerance among young people they want to make complaints but the ferry have is it is going to have consequences for the rest of the career and so I

I've been changes.

I don't think the cultures have changed how to quickly and that's why what about you? Do you have to do one of the things you have to do is you start creating benchmark? Can you actually start feeding this into what we would like to see if that is part of a contract when you go to do a piece of work particularly the feelings person when you go to to go to work and that you know that they were going to be safe and that you know that you have redress and see if that is going to provide an independent place to go to an early stages.

Where somebody is feeling that someone is behaving in ways to die.

They don't want to end up for it.

I don't want it to turn into some great and stayed trial after me.

Just wanted to stop and it's possible for an independent entity to do that.

What happened is the organization's whether it's at the BBC or an educational institution or whatever they fear reputational loss in for the always want to sort of them.

Some things and I'm on it quite often helpful to a person to be able to go to an independent external to the to the the film company to the television company to the orchestra music industry as well is in modelling.

What do you think should be the process to police all this is there a danger that there could be a malicious allegations made about stars switchboard the television station has anyone in the public I get calls and newspapers get calls all day long from people making malicious accusations that aren't true something the first thing you have to do is an organisation and individual works you predict the whole profile.

It is check out the base of the activation with Toby unfair and wrong just because I'm makes an accusation to believe it because a lot of people I hear rumours about the daily basis, but I totally not true.

Strict as a good example that lot of accusations have been swirling around the media all summer lots of things have been said about people doing bad things but actually no one has been proven to be bad now in maybe the report when it comes out might give us a favour.

Don't know about it waiting for an investigation by the BBC and allegations made by the actress and about her professional dance partner Giovanni panichi.

He denies misconduct the people might go the new season started last week and people might have watched it what they did indeed watch it.

There was no mention of the furore over the past months, but they made changes to the show including putting in chaperones and the rehearsal rooms police the talent too much you maybe lose the magic what you think about the competition show at the thing about strictly in athletic competition show and those people that WhatsApp want to win have to push themselves beyond their natural abilities and park the way you do that.

Cos you have coaches push.

Go to the gym listen to this program and you have a teacher for a coach and front of 30 people gym shouting to cycle faster and faster and I think you have to because you don't win gold medals of the bowl trophy if your average so I think there's a balance between pushing people in unaccept away.

I have no problems by the way with the saffron the room particularly for the power imbalance if it's a young person and an older person that's got nothing to hide and not going to worry if you've got something to hide that they're going to worry but I do think particularly with when there's a power imbalance.

I'm leaving me for example.

I would I'm a 62 year old man.

I would never meet a girl in her 20s on my own.

I don't know in a room where I can't be seen through glass.

I just think you have to be sensible and you have to set up on him casting send shows movies in the old days Harvey Weinstein you go to hotel Suite for a casting now.

You guys professional casting room with professional casting people in it and we have an accident it's very successful and

Actors get caught a proper casting situation if we get a weird call to wear plays we know it's not right we said alright.

Cos you can't go there and we will question it so the people like me who have you like other day.

Make sure that all our Talent are protected both mothers but also from being attacked as well anyway protection and the last word from you say look some exceptional people perhaps needs to be treated in an exceptional way that people underlay audiences for example with extraordinary Talent should be given some leeway.

What do you say that no the standards have to be the same across the piece and we should expect from stars as well as anyone else and respect for people and understanding boundaries and an understanding of how power is different and that you can't abuse it and that's what it's really about famous.

You are the hi, you are with being.

Camera behind the camera the big are your responsibility the session example the evening the cat Donald Trump falsely claimed in the prime Time TV debate the common Harris that Haitian immigrants are eating household pets the story has made headlines and generated and literally of memes song remixes that was the kiffness there one journalist set out to find the source of this debunked rumour.

I'm going now bye Jack Brewster Enterprise editor at newsguard the US station setup to counter misinformation hello Jack thanks for coming on the programme.

Just tell me first.

How did you go about tracking this town?

Yes, I'm finding the source of this claim is almost as interesting as the climate so we went to the screenshot.

Everyone was sharing online before independent person who originally the claim and it was posted first thing as private Facebook group and when it was a shared on Acts which is where I went by somebody had a redacted the name of the top secret who was the original poster of this claim my colleague and I noticed that a couple of the letters were exposed the top and so is zoomed in and after about a few minutes of searching we cast of the name might Erica just by the way the tops the letters were exposed and then we went sleuthing we went searching across Facebook groups for pet lovers and other kinds of people in Ohio the match with this profile and eventually I found her in this Springfield pet group and was able to do contactor and when you contacted her, what what did she tell you about? Why she

Who was she? She wasn't ready longtime residents Springfield Ohio who was she was just concerned about what she had heard from her neighbour and she said that she wanted to go to town about what she thought might be happening to pets and 1 people and she posted it again this private Facebook group.

She was so she was shot put up on the presidential debate stage about a week later, but that's City managers City officials have told her that the claim was false and she put back on and said that she didn't believe those those claims and she said again if you heard the saying her name and so she said she trusted her neighbour as a source and said that patients had indeed causing problems in the town and she thought it was right and I think you you won't.

Facebook why you also found her by cross-referencing, what was it the public divorce records or something and then she can do her neighbour that she did not see this first out again.

It's like a game of telephone the person that we were able to speak to even one down the line said she heard it's third hand so this was a raw spread from one person to the next person the next person eventually ending up on the presidential debate stage since deleted the post and they now regret writing it, but how did it blow up on the internet and how did it make its way into the presidential debate?

Somebody conservative commentator with a priest small fine, but I grow I don't even we were even able to find out who that person actually was Jasmine 2000 followers you screenshot, put a highlight over the name and posted on accent tagged another conservative commentator with a large following and it took so it shows how in a fragmented are news ecosystem.

Is it shows in the problems with not having a robust local news source in Italian Springfield Ohio that people are relying on this group to get their news information and you never know what can go viral you can put something in a private Facebook group can end up in a prisoner stage impact you think it's had this rumour Springfield I hire a massive effect has been banned.

You know those people who are in a town to report on it.

The tower is becoming you know this focal point of this the spiral false narrative distracted from A Seller really she's going on you know with immigration in the United States you know that's part of why does this claim went viral.

There's been so much talk about immigration in the selection and this is got a distraction right it does not there's no evidence of immigrants eating People's Park in fact no verified report about this happening any at its dominated are beautiful discourse United States and it has taken all the life of his own as I was saying bye mean by all sides of the political spectrum and I want to talk more about that and their impacts with a j Bower Who's assistant professor at the Department of journalism at the University of Alabama hello, how did it go then from debunk rumor to mean? Just talk me through that.

Yeah, so one of the benefits of the kind of proliferation of AI and other sorts of technology is means that now it is going to democratise the access to me making right before you used to have to be able to use Photoshop or something like that in order to put together images that generally exist nowadays you can type it into you no charger PTA I search Q-Park on Twitter I'm in get images right there in so I think that I want someone that Donald Trump said something before you know tens of millions of people wanted to beat stage then you're off to the races and for those you haven't seen them.

We might be watching.

How do you describe the memes from trump all his supporters? How would you characterise them so trump himself has been showing images of himself with AI generated and ducks does asthma the claims around the these racist comments about immigrants eating animals typically Focuses on dachshund and cats images of trump with them.

There is one.

A cat holding a sign that says save me from komola or I hate Kamala something along those lines does a cat pulling a gun to defend itself can a cartoon images and are they being used memes and videos on the other side to debunk the claim that see what happens.

Yeah, so I think it's the way it's been used on the other side extension Mark trump and some ways and make fun of Republicans for the claim that migrants would be eating pets and I think there's no problem with that is a response.

Yes, it's making fun of trump and dance etc.

Also amplifying this issue of immigration which ends up in the long run benefiting from advanced the reason why the advertising this is because they were trying to make immigration the top issue as you're going into the auction month so I think even that attempts to counteract it with funny memes or can it not doing the work? I think they're doing.

These memes can sway political opinion in that regard and then be convinced about something about immigrants that they don't already believe I'm the goal here is to basically prime voters to put immigration on the top of the list of issues are going to be putting this year.

I'm in in Donald Trump makes immigration is primary issue and so he wants to find photos to think about that issue and JD vans.

Are you know how people respond about the JD Vance look like this?

Yeah, I think that was pretty shocking for those of you that don't know United States on Sunday mornings.

We have local television programming that allows people to tune into I'm in JD and sign on at the NEC show and basically admitted.

It was a fake story and said he will continue to make up fix stories.

I miss long as it helped him.

I think that this was a pretty big ass in actually made the story more about the lies that trump invent are telling in order to get elected as opposed to actually about anything that immigrants are doing or any issues relating to immigrants and so they can develop receptive little they said they were going to be clever amplify this issue of immigration.

I'm in instead what they did is kind of made the issue about that the immigration is an issue that many people feel very strong about thank you for ages age of our and also Jack booster for coming on the programme now.

We could be deprived of one of the platforms providing some of these memes because tiktok fake currently have.

The balance in the United States you might remember Joe Biden signed a law stating that unless it's Chinese parent company sells it tiktok will be banned that concerned fears of foreign manipulate.

Well this week, the company has been fighting the ban in a Washington appeals cold and Lara O'Reilly from Business Insider is is here largest just explain what are tiktok arguing in the appeal to try and battle this to convince this panel of three judges that a band would essentially violate uses first amendment rights free speech rights in other words and that outweighs any national security concerns that people might have about the app and the overriding concern is that tiktok spare Chinese in the Warriors that the act be used to spread misinformation or so discord in the US as part of a Government influence or operation and there's also a concern that tiktok be used.

Lots of personal data about Americans including high-profile ones banned from lots of government devices already probably not advised to use if you're a spy either influences have joined forces with tiktok.

I think to challenge the van.

Who are then what's there argument so yeah this happened early this year actually a group of inferences to Capitol Hill approach the possible ban and what they're saying is there any such band could affect their businesses they feel huge followings on this platform.

Maybe make money through tiktok through doing brandels our share of ad revenue selling things and tiktoks arguing.

It's got to have 5 million businesses in the US on the app and that would severely affect them to just go away tomorrow and does the Chinese parents.

Does it look like it would be will be willing to sell if it has to.

Well, absolutely, that's why there are there in the appeals Court it's a big money maker for them and it's an incredible Chinese import to the US obviously that's one of the arguments is that it's having an outside some culture tiktok song called to generate somewhere around 6 to 7 billion in revenue in the US next year lots of people get their news from tiktok increasing the people on there a dance desperately wants to hold onto this app and what's the deadline for the sale for you which is the January should this band go through but tiktok has a right to appeal again and take this to the Supreme Court should it not going at favour? So this could roll on for a number of months.

Ok? Will David Rennie is with us to we're going to talk about your time covering China for The Economist at the moment day but

Watch from Beijing imagine is the US plans to ban tiktok progressed? What's your take on this move is a sign that you've never tried before which is to have a child is clearly now seen as an adversary and someone is certainly in America and yet.

It's absolutely intimately in the lives of half of the American population have tiktok accounts including lots of kids.

You know if you think the cold war the 60s and 70s Union wasn't in your kids bedroom colour of entertain them in the middle of America and so don't know that was on the other side of the world, but had no role in life in your own home and one of the reasons is so hard politically is that would try and something never tried before which is the economically completely interdependent bound up with the country China just has a completely different little system and is not afraid to admit and tiktok is particularly scary because if the kind of the question on the exam paper is could you construct a short video app that does the building?

Chinese Communist Party hoovers up data and has it to the secret police and Spencer's news about things like xinjiang that the Chinese government does not out there with the answer on the exam papers.

Yes, there's a thing called boy in which does all of that one of the most popular social Media apps in China and it's owned by the same company that owns tiktok.

It's the sister.

So whether tiktok are telling the truth or not about that.

It says it doesn't was terrible nefarious things in America the very same company does all those things as a condition of doing business in China cos that's the way the Chinese Media business works and will be paying in China how about this fine in the US over tiktok and how is it being perceived from a Chinese perspective in China it's that once again the evil prejudiced indeed list Americans can't handle competition from China and so there crashing a wonderful company and doilies in normally popular in China so kind of things are champion.

That is being bullied overseas.

By The Selfish jealous Americans are allegedly being covertly funded by Russia in the US and there's a new development on my subject because yesterday metal band Russia today and other media state networks so Russian Media networks from the part for my own Facebook Instagram WhatsApp is alleging the these outlets were using club deceptive Tactics to conduct operations across its apps and kind of avoid detection and social media platforms in a wide range of options for suspicious uses, what are and how far to use have to go to get banned.

Account from making money through advertising then it took steps to cover limit is reached at the algorithm doesn't have automatically recommends their content and then ultimately you move them to do a bounce on the platform all together and it's a kind of move that YouTube has taken in the past with some creators before 2 ok.

We'll stay with us to talk about media news later, but I do want to turn to David m.

Who as I said it's just finished a six-year posting as The Economist man in Beijing at a time when David you say I've said that being a Western journalists.

There is becoming increasingly lonely.

What do you mean by that is the numbers of pretty shocking you're not I came in 2018 section my second place in the 90s as well.

If you just look at the number for tickly American jealous, because there's been is long-running tit-for-tat a visa war between the American government which really started under Donald Trump's administration and the Chinese authorities and the number of the three biggest papers in York Times the Wall Street Journal the Washington Post

When I arrived this time in 2018, they had 27 foreign correspondence between them in China as you'd expect China is the world's second-largest economy.

It's an absolutely gigantic important story of course big Western news organisations need to be down on the ground as I leave those same newspapers.

Don't have 27 cars once they have five and a moment.

It was lower than that the UK media economic reasons partly for you know people having trouble getting visas to go in the BBC is had a unbelievable be tired right the last 4 years in China the press corps in Beijing as I left a couple of weeks was basically around the same size as it was there in the 1990s November 2nd in the sun like 15 times smaller back then so it's dangerous.

I think and just totally bizarre.

Have you done is the covering? It's absolutely enormous country what it's like to work as a journalist in China you've been covering as you say that.

We prevent what we prevented from doing as a journalist, how difficult was it operate but it was too real pressures that have become worse.

What is James from the moment you board the plane in Beijing there's a secret police and sitting next to you on the plane when you land in the capital of xinjiang there armed police to come trumping down the aisle of the plane take you off photographing people listening xinjiang is the finals West province where we live and are being brutalised as we speak presumably because they're very concerned about Islam separatism and and we was in particular and Tibet the other giant separatist regions the other giant ethnic minority region in the west is completely closed chance.

We can't even go that you need a special to go there in my 10 years in China and I've also permits.

I've never been allowed to go to bed.

So that's one precious physically stopping you doing things people saying that to you on a plane.

A dozen people so every interview you try and conduct people are listening in people of filming.

It's people the photograph.

It's that is he goes somewhere lights inject where we know that we got another man will end up in real trouble if not in a can of re-education camp for being in the Western media essentially I'm one of the journalist subscribe to that you shouldn't interview any Riga in it's just not responsible.

I need to get into bed.

That's one is you the other big thing that we have to worry about is the safety of the people we speak to even in less sensitive.

You know villagers Farm Business is getting story back youth unemployment or pollution or in a drought climate change things that others the normal Business of Being a foreign correspondent the pressure and the threats of the day for people who interview and their sensitivity that has gone up and up and up and it's not an accident to deliberate policy.

You know when I was in a village recently you know within minutes the local party secretary comes can a panther?

Says that the villages of all reported immediately they'd seen a foreigner in the village and he's very proud of this he said in a weird train to look for foreign spies with train to look to think about national Security as soon as they see a foreigner then then they report is the authorities and no one is going to speak to you.

He's very proud of this and that in my kind of you know 10 years in total over a quarter century.

That has got worse and is it always like that everywhere why you sometimes free had to go about your business a lot worse and there was a time back in the 1990s where the best person was being a really talented Chinese investigative reporters some of them working for state and party controlled newspapers, but they had more freedom to report lot to say the Communist party was a bad party but to say you know factory pumping pollution into a river and giving people cancer that kind of really important public service journalism was possible in the 1990s in a way that is really almost completely impossible now.

The you are still asking questions difficult questions of Chinese officials however, they responded to you were they surprised that you were talking to them in a way that presumably people jealous because the Chinese Media have been so controlled and they don't even to get their annual prescod renewed now.

They have the parcel political can of obedience test and are they studied using thought the thought of the Chinese leader example.

I very rarely went to press conferences with Chinese stage and it's closed on a trip to a poverty alleviation project where the only way of getting there was on a trip the first question from the main Chinese state news agency to these party said she's in a village square was this appears to be a tremendous success, could you tell us some stories so you see that you know what fraction did they choose to live here of a happy about being relocated? It's just as a culture shock to Chinese official so don't understand why we're so aggressive and is that how your scene.

I mean does he presumably the president he wants Chinese story to get out there does he does that mean that they are combative with you when you speak to people because they are pushing the Chinese message order has been given by the very top leaders supreme Xi Jinping he said you know I want to I want people to join how to tell China story well so that translates in the real world to the kind of people who call you in for a bola King as a foreign correspondent on our Force to be stricter and more severe at the bowling is longer.

There's also tremendous pressure Media like The Economist or the BBC or the New York Times who did they who are they decide? What is right and wrong where he going to democratise our coverage and so they're very proud of having influences from places like the UK or other Western countries coming on trips sometimes paid by the Chinese to go to places exactly like xinjiang to stand next to the one mosque.

That is open under in.

Surveillance a mosque you know the Westmead is lying to say there's no freedom for Muslims in this place.

You know there's a must if you know any detail at all.

You know has strictly controlled have my newly survey that mosque is this you know this push to say you know we're going to try and reach out to the sincere people who mean well.

We're not trying to attack China and hold her darling.

So that's been used as a weapon against those Western media who is still in the Country Living through the pandemic that was the controversial zero covid policy that saw millions of people in China quarantined.

What impact did that have what was used fully cynically during the pandemic.

You know we would still try and go out and do reporting out sometimes go to villagers.

You know early on during the pandemic and as soon please for The Propaganda Bureau turned up then the new weapon to use against you was to say will you can either leave immediately and go back to Beijing in stop reporting or we might just have to quarantine you in this Village for the next two weeks.

Is potentially you're a danger and you been infected with the time they set up a bogus roadblock police roadblock just to stop a colleague and I going to the border with North Korea and said it was for the pandemic control measures although traffic with pouring classes.

No other car was being stopped.

So they were very cynically using that additional control mechanism to try and limit annoying foreign reporter and what when you look back and think about your time there and the reporting you able to do it as obviously very powerful.

How do you reflect on it? Do you feel that you the stories as well as you could but you would have wanted to do more or how do you think about it? Of course? You don't you want to do more I mean that the task I tried to set myself because I have the tremendous privilege of being in China on the ground was to try and explain how Chinese people see the world through their eyes rather than just good looking from the outside is not a completely closed country.

It's not North Korea

Actually, you know you can talk to Chinese people about pretty sensitive subjects if you don't directly ask them what they think about the Communist party or Xi Jinping they're incredibly open in some ways to talking to foreigners like me to light all of the torrent of propaganda, which you know has been affected people have people say if you're from the BBC you're going to say bad things about China Garden from BBC Good never seen a single minute of BBC coverage, but state media has told them that the BBC can have his means China wants to see the damage China but generally you know you can ride a crowded sleeper train talk to other until late in the night.

You can go to talk to parents about whether they feel their children are going to have a better life than them as long as it's not explicitly political one of the great joys that likes the things.

I miss most about is that chance to get out and talk to real people and it's an incredible credit to them but despite all of the propaganda and even the risks that they sometimes running to talk to a foreign journalist.

There's still will.

To to say what they feel absolutely when we have you that you may have seen the Australian planning to ban children from using social media and yesterday EU rules.

I thought you had prompted matter is the owner of Facebook and Instagram to introduce age restriction as well the Chinese equivalent of tiktok already does restrict use are there is China leading the way on this is partly political.

It's partly that the Communist Party is also in some ways with a small see very Conservative Party it's very fetalis the top leader and he worries about things like children being unfit or over so not you know wanting to join the army or in a not wanting to work.

I didn't say he worries at their spending too much time on their screens on their phones and he's kind of Grouse your grandad in some ways despite being Communist Party top leader and before you go I mean you've already left China now.

You were talking earlier about the decrease in the number of jealousy is The Economist another column is Joanna sending out there to replace you.

So we have x and colleagues on the ground in China still staff correspondent fewer than we would like and the one really sad thing at the moment is that I launched in this column about China every week for the past 6 years old child 120 of those I just write the last time.

We had to put a note to the bottom saying that because the whole point of this problem is it's written from the ground in China until we get my replacement in to write the common from Wandsworth suspending the common that breaks our hearts.

You know there's been a big thing for us to have a weekly China column and until we can get a columnist resident in China again, and it is about a very much that and I don't you for trying to say course.

I write things for the noise them but I'm also I I hope Catrin how China sees the world and the voices of Chinese people and not around about things but not at all.

You know you know Alzheimer's being a new issue the way that China is trying to solve in Oporto sideman, Chinese kids divorce rates rising and actually going to remarriage for the first time.

What does that mean in?

Chinese about the Communist Party I think you don't have in China you're not going to bring to life and make people understand.

It's 1.4 billion human beings with human-like so I think the Chinese that are doing themselves a massive disservice to North landlord journalists in on the ground front.

Thank you so much baby bunny for all of that now some other media news has been servicing here in the UK about the proposed sale of one of the world's oldest Sunday papers Lara O'Reilly from Business Insider is still here Laura this is the news we talked about the top of tortoise wants to buy the Observer splitting it from its sister paper the Guardian what do we know about? What are the plans essentially? It's no secret sadly that the the news businesses can a dolly challenge right now and the Guardians no exception while it's managed to.

The revenue that it derives come directly from readers from that free membership for donations.

That's unfortunately been outpaced by the the slow down and Ab Revenue and prints sales and it reported a loss last year, so yeah incomes tortoise, so what do we know about tortoise? I told you a little bit of the start the show it specialises in what it cause slow news and it's a female wasn't looking to sell the Observer but tortoise approached the company and they've said that we plan to can invest 25 million pounds in the Observer over the next 5 years that money is coming from because it sounds like an awful lot.

It is and there hasn't been much detail about that.

I mean we know that the Tortoise itself is his raise and roughly about 16 million in its history is a lot more than that over the next 5 years presumably they're going to have to find some from somewhere because they are another lost making me outlet according to their the most recently published accounts.

It's going to be interesting they say that they're gonna continue to publish the Observer print products and print it is very much and branding exercise and it's your visibility on the new standpipes possibility of a new ad revenue stream for them.

It will be interested of continues over the time whether the Observer stays will see you Sunday to tortoise you know.

Over the years but you can see from an outside perspective.

That's the Observer name is such an important brand in Britain in British media and yet with falling stars and all of that throwing the fat the Tortoise is trying to do something different and there's a lot of stuff digitally but doesn't have the same name recognition that it could actually be a great pairing for the Guardian it means a more refined focus on the Guardian products and particularly the digital products and it's looking to build.

Yes, we've tortoise you know they say that they're going to play some of the continue the internationally renowned the genus and the observers can have found four and move that into it audio products where it's really can you show us a podcast and things you don't really know about yet is the price you're asking about where the money coming from we're not sure how much they all need and it is unclear whether it's going to be a fire sell for the Guardian to finish.

Costs and then also I think that means for the product going forward again.

We don't know a lot about the Guardian circulation anymore because they decided to keep that private they used to sit at the last time.

I did was about 3 years ago and it's something like 136000 properly dropped off a lot more since then the Guardians even lower at 60000 as minutes.

So yeah, it's going to be interesting to see what what change this means for the Guardian itself to ok well Laura from Business Insider thank you so much and one of the problems with a dislike the Guardian in the Observer is the decline in traffic and advertising revenue because of decisions made by search engines and social media to deprioritized news content well those twins.

Got potentially a lot stronger in the UK in the last few weeks some of you may have noticed a change in Google search engine instead of bringing up a list of links to sites to visit.

Information you want you maybe now seeing an AI generated answer to your query first.

This is just one example of the way.

I is changing the way we live and work and just to discuss the development and how the product of a fierce waste in Silicon Valley I'm joined by Palmer awesome.

Hello pommy pommy Bloomberg opinion columnist covering technology and also have any book called supremacy AI chat GPT and the race double change the world so big big types of let us start with Google's AI mentioning their what impact did this have on papers like the door again.

So I think it's already having an impact.

I was just looking at a report on the press Gazette recently which I think showed that some content generated content creators of notice to decline in traffic already even though it's only been a short while but these a overview supper now.

I think they're taking up something like 16% of searches.

In the UK are now being given a overviews and so you're not lead to the Guardian website all the Times website wouldn't know when you look at the overuse.

They do have links and I was actually talking to people at Google a couple of weeks ago people who work on the search team and they were saying you actually the quality of clicks of people who are into the links is higher than previous searches from Google Now I think that's like maybe a clever way of them.

Just trying to justify what's going on here because just explain people how it does work.

Just don't quite know is this the end of the internet as we know I went quite like some people have it can certainly feel that way because why would you explore the links on page one if the answer is right there synthesised at the very top in this lovely summarise the answer by a I only trust it and maybe you shouldn't but one of the way that this works essentially.

The new type of AI model that's really taken hold in the last 2 years sparked by a chat CBT Google Now got its own version and that's same underlying technology is worth synthesizers all the data that it hurts it's great to cross the web into this answer that it gives for your searches now think the thing that's an interesting is that Google you know it makes a lot of money from different types of searches transactional searches and informational searches so if I search for Nike shoes or headphones Google is going to make more money when I click on the resulting links if I put in a question about you know cooking or something about what's going on in the war in Ukraine I'm going to get information or response Google doesn't make as much money from that content that's generated from a site.

So anyway, what's happening here? Is I think Google's not losing out quite as much as publishers are losing out.

I mean that's one side of this role out of potential AI and consumer products but much of the recent progress in this technology has been driven by this intense battle between tectite tech Titans even to dominate the race and in your new book you details some of that rivalry between Google deepmind and open AI why did you want to investigate what I think there are so many different players in this in a I I really wanted to focus on these two men and when he came out almost 2 years ago now.

I remember thinking at the time like we have done nothing people really understand the story or know about the story behind all this and when you say to men it's well never mind.

What does the AA live here in London which was bought by Google in 2015 and Sam Hartman who's the founder of open AI focused on those two men is because they were the first to try and Bill

Companies or organisations that would create super intelligent ai human-level ai and they both had the humanitarian ambitions that once they built the say I could solve a problem that so this is about developing artificial general intelligence.

What it what is that people don't believe that it's even possible that these guys did it essentially a machine that can do the cartoon of Labour of our human brain as well as a human brain become human essentially come but won't be able to do the same tasks that we was chatting to take a few years ago.

Who would have thought that computer program could write a poem or synthesise budget details into an essay, and at least once even more smart intelligence that could solve bigger problems vague ambitions that both had around solving the climate crisis elevating everyone.

That was really interesting and the reason I wrote the book is that when I ended up happening is that those ambitions completely flipped in service of the business these larger tech companies before we get to that.

How did their personal rivalry affect the development of a I think it was really started because of dampness in London so in 2010.

He started this company deepmind to build a g i put his neck on the line as a scientist because that's right and scientific.

Rachel was a fringe Theory at the time and then 5 years later.

Just he was really kind of gaining steam hits old is company to Google because he was getting offers from lot of companies and you couldn't really maintain independence San Francisco also started an organisation that was going to build this Agi artificial general intelligence.

For the betterment of humanity secure you have two organisations have racing to build their powerful AI for the good of humanity and that was really interesting is that both new on both these men knew that they need to protect their technology from corporate interest because they they want it the the technology to benefit people as a sound try to build his profit organisation and what I found two researching my book is a Dennis after selling to Google spent years trying to break away trying to become an independent non-profit organisation and both Field In Those efforts in the end Microsoft to control open Google to complete control of deepmind and so then you and your book talk about an AI Arms when did it become that and is that did they lose sight of the original intentions you think I think there's always been a little bit of competition between companies on a I particularly since 2012.

But November 20-22 when charity came out I mean that was really the starting gone for a race between company as they were all trying to replicate 2PT because everybody potentially transformational this technology was going to be an absolutely 100 up happening is companies releasing software or AI models that make mistakes that are good with bias, because the day that they're training the models on is biased and that is a huge amount of energy through these data centres and you believe that is when is razors meant compromising the original principles and it's already happened.

If you just look at it now.

Just look at deepmind website for example that used to be all about the different ways they I'm going to do these humanitarian causes like you know just making scientific discoveries treating disease now all of that has gone from the website and it's all about.

Google's Gemini it's very that's the AI model that Google has it's very product-focused open AI is now reported reporting a strong that they are plan rid of their non-profit board next year or sometime soon in order to make it easier to get to attract investment that they can continue to cross's really about you know the end justifying the how to get to adi and in the end the colour forgot about the principles long way and how do you think they justify these compromises on those previous values? I think you investigate an idea popular in Silicon Valley called yeah.

That's part of it.

I think both visionaries were really bastard by all these different ideologies and they are each had their own and unusual personal motivations for building Agi and is powerful AI but in the end.

It doesn't really matter what was motivating you because they were both kind of Saturn to the centre of gravity which was these huge technology companies.

I really wanted to make clear in the book is that we've never in human history had companies or organisations that such as many people as the likes of Google and Facebook and Microsoft and apple and even more influential now because of the technology they effectively took over from these two visionaries and it is worth probably me saying that Google deep mine and open a I have maintained their commitment to developing AI that benefits the whole of society they say open I say I recently said in response to report it was changing its nonprofit skull structure.

We remain focused on building AI benefits everyone and we are working with our board to ensure that we're best position to succeed in our mission.

The non-profit is called to our mission and will continue to exist and Google Deep Web site maintains that it's mission is to build AI responsibly to benefit humanity and we will continue saying that to the end of time.

I'm sure thank you.

Yeah, and also interrogating it.

Thank you so much for me or something on the program and I can't wait to read your book a lot of people listen will feel the same way you can come back next week and B&M audience again, please for the media show but that's all we got time for thank you so much for joining us for joining me roses back next week.

I'm Gabriel Gatehouse and from BBC Radio 4.

This is series 2 of The Coming storm there's a divide in American politics between those who think democracy is in parallel, and if you think it's already been subverted hollowed out from the Inside understand the organisations within the repairs to elect its next president we go through the looking glass into a world where nothing is as it seems for the storming of the capital was a setup and the institutions of the State

It's all illusion listen on BBC sounds.