Read this: Reporting Gaza, expert women on the news, publishing's big week

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I love the whole process of making podcasts from the Spar good idea to hearing the final edit There's Nothing Like It What Makes BBC podcast special is that we're working for you, so whatever we commission has to reflect the things that you care about and love wherever you in the UK if you like this BBC podcast there's so much more to discover have a listen on BBC sounds music Radio podcasts by Ros Atkins this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week brought the anniversary of her bosses October 7th of tack will speak to an Israeli journalist about covering that day.

This followed will also hurt from the BBC's rusty Avenue who covered Israel's response to October 7th from inside Gaza and we'll talk to the editor and chief of The Economist about the challenges of reporting the conflict 11 years ago professor Liz how came on the media show to tell us about a new initiative she was launching to increase the number of female experts in the news this week the initiative came to an end not before it is released its latest data will hear from professor.

How what progress has been made and it is a very important publishers super Thursday is coming the day when many of the books aimed at the Christmas market.

Released will take you inside one of the biggest days in a publishers calendar on today's program is Danny Minton beddoes editor and chief of The Economist very good.

Have you back on the media? Show? Thank you very much for your time later on in the programme we're going to be hearing about how the economist.

Find to get your journalism to reach more and more students, but we must start with the Middle East I wonder as an editor of a very high profile publication that covers global affairs.

What have you learnt about the challenges of covering the Middle East in the last year? Thank you very much for having me.

It's great to be joining you again.

Look this is being a very very tough conflict to cover it's been a tough year.

It's one that's difficult on so many levels and so much tragedy on both sides so much emotion on both sides so difficult full in clear information.

It's one is a subject when you answer is really important.

It's been very hard to get new ones so what I tried to do it.

I've had a crash course on the Middle East in the last year.

I would certainly wouldn't pretend to be a global Express on that subject, but I've been there for a might have got a lot of time on it.

I'm very lucky.

You're lucky to have a really crack team of

Team is unbelievably expert we've got some of people have some some of the best books biographies Yahoo history of Israel adventure of real expertise and I really really expertise from Jerusalem to Dubai to Washington DC handful of people really really know their stuff and so you you turn to that expertise, but I wonder if you'll be well aware that many Media organisations including the BBC have been accused of bias by one side or the other as an editor as you are overseeing the work of those experts you would need to do you approach the challenge of impartiality, so what is authority expertise and fair-minded but of course we've we've been criticising and the most controversial element of our coverages are editorialize which in the end.

I'm responsible for and I've been criticised a lot as you can both sides, but you can.

Look through Twitter and you'll see and are you a fair amount of vitriol on the nature of our coverage areas have taken some some quite controversial stances.

They are the subject of a lot of internal discussion and debate not everyone inside The Economist agrees with everything.

We said we have a wide variety of views, but I think we have a lot of internal discussion internal Debate and I hope that our editorials are the stronger for that and the evil people who disagree with them will find them well-argued and fair-minded and a contribution to the Debate I think this is a year in which you are the extremes are unwilling to countenance anything from the other side and when I tried to do is to ensure that our analysis is as thorough as expert lead and possibly can be and from that we draw conclusions based on you know are liberal principles and bass.

Our well you not everyone will agree with them, but I hope they will take them for what they are which is a valid contribution to the Debate before we moved to our guest at who is in Israel at the moment and we'll be going to hear from Palestinian journalist the BBC Scottish correspondent you visited in June of this year, did how did you get access and how much did that impact your opponent as what you could actually see and say and do three times for the region this year.

I was in as it happened in the golf in Qatar on October 1st the day after and there a couple of days later did an interview with a senior Hamas leader a podcast interview with Mr Abu marzouk, which was only if you listen to it difficult to do ever flatly denied that come my side as a committed any atrocities whatsoever, so that was sort of one extreme of it, then I went to Israel for a few days and I decide when I was there that I really wanted to do a podcast a long Vodka

What next in Gaza and so I went back spend a week with my colleagues two of my colleagues with me and we were in The West Bank we talk to pretty much everybody has anybody in Israel and then I felt it was really important to go together.

I couldn't do a podcast on the future goals and yes, I've been in guys and as you know.

It's impossible for journalist independently to get into God that he won't let you go in the only way you can get in is what's called an embed with the Israeli army with the idf you go in with the meeting in a military vehicle can I'm usually I was accompanied by Daniel who is the spokesman of the idf for kind of head spokesman, and we spent a morning in guys.

Are we went from what's a song? What's called the nursery rhyme corridor, which biceps guys are the place where the Israeli created this road, and we went to the Mediterranean Sea and the reason I didn't even though it was obviously constrained because I can only go where they took me is that it gave me a very powerful sense of.

Scale of destruction I literally didn't see a building that wasn't either flattened or heavily damaged and I went with my colleague great costume who have been together many many times.

I hadn't and he could give me after he could describe to me what it looks like where we were on the beach wanted to look like the last time.

He was there and even though they were clearly constraints on our report it because we could only go when I took us.

I felt that was worth it.

It was important because I got a sense of what the place was like and I think the podcast was more will sort of better as a result we also got a lot of Voices from Palestinians in Gaza voice note which is the only way you can do it really you get what you ask people to send you voice notes, so we can find that but for me it was it was really important to have been there until I've seen it for myself well in a few minutes.

We're going to be a conversation Casey is hard with one of our BBC colleagues who reported from Gaza for several months, but first of all here on the media show we're joined by Noah tarnopolsky freelance Israel

Journalist no good, thank you for being with us on the media show I wonder how your experience was on Monday of covering the anniversary of October 7th while of course I'm sure how many personal connections to those affected.

Thank you very much for inviting me on this programme first of all Monday was a bit of a whirlwind here.

I think for it almost anybody here also in terms of covered in part because there is so much contacts needed in order to provide accuracy which I think is what we were talking about I'm striving for and in the current mediaworld.

We don't normally have enough time or space to provide the context and more like this one with so many competing complex factors.

I think we're facing a real clash of current Media culture with the real needs intellectual needs for transmission of accurate information and how did you observe? How Israel's Media covered the anniversary?

I have very few things about it on the one hand it was blanket coverage, which I think was appropriate given the magnitude of this event and worse even worse given the fact that he is really government which should have been leading israelis in a day.

This is life in a day of commemoration and morning Israeli government was all the absent and so what you had four different Media outlets making it is great efforts to provide guidance and a framework for the entire nation to observe day.

I think that I think it was important and at the same time I felt that there was an enormous amount missing from the coverage both in terms of the Israeli experience and an assessment of what is a has been through the last year a cold.

And of course in terms of coverage of what has actually been happening in Gaza during this whole year 1 know that you're going to be staying with us for the next few minutes of the media.

Show me want to hear more of your experience is not just covering this week, but of covering the past year that's no good time.

Opolskie.

We're also going to go back to zanny Minton beddoes the editor-in-chief of The Economist the committee to protect journalists as one year on from October 7th at least 128 journalists have been killed in the war 123 were Palestinian all killed by Israeli forces the idf says it doesn't have a policy to target Media personnel.

We're going to here now from the BBC correspondent Abergele has been in the war first from inside Gaza and since November when he left goes with his family from the wider region he came into the media show studio yesterday while he was on a short visit to London

Play asked him to take us back to the start of the war as it was always trying to keep my family away from my job for privacy reasons, but I really is very quickly that there is no way this time your family has to be part of this process because simply you need to protect them and then you say you how many people these prices? What do you mean means when you have evacuation order in the middle of the night you start to hit the family that you waiting the apartment for filming them in the same time because they live the story for the first time your family's living the story with you.

So I remember that night when you got a warning from our neighbours that they want to come back left near our house and straight away.

I just took the phone started to film The my wife and my kids while they were taking up their stuff and living in together very annoying for them.

I had to explain to him that an order to take care of you.

Continue doing my job.

I have to do both in the same time at this is really something very difficult but then it's became more dangerous because I was in the hospital we set up our in the second biggest hospital in Communist where we believe it's a safe, please and I put my family the shave their room in a house just opposite to the hospital and they were coming to see me because I wasn't home for about 2 days, so the kids when taking you want to see all that and they hit the roof of the building underneath it so my work was engine but they said was just literally like 2 minutes before going on here and I know that in this building is my family and how quickly did you find out then when I saw them because when they had them they were like quickly running towards the hospital and I saw them.

Hope you are not going back to the you have to stay with.

Hospital so I build a tent for them.

Just to stay here we either survive together or kill together and I couldn't do any job.

I told my look I just can't do anything today and we saw you do that job certainly until you left in November we saw you very regularly on the BBC at that time in really difficult.

What was that experience like to be reporting their leaving girls always the most difficult decision in my life.

I was almost about to say to my wife, please.

Just go I can't leave this because I know that it's a big story and is ready alone for a journalist in and people feel that you are their eyes.

You know the feeling that you're telling their daily suffering and in the same time I lift my father in Gaza I decided not to see him that night I said I don't want to say goodbye.

I just texted him and I said sorry that if we see each other again the mood see each other if not, that's it.

Bye.

I have to leave.

What was it when you realise you had to leave what was the moment where you thought however much.

It's important for me to continue as a journalist reporting this story.

I need to get myself my family out when my wife was injured decided to go to one nearby village and this is the first time I feel I'm close to this at that village because 5-l strikes where within less than hundred pizza will debris and the Glasgow flying over us and the second Air Strike them strike.

I was like saying that's it.

It's over I was my friend.

I told him it's over the first one will be here.

You're going to die.

It was like day today trying to survive day today and you sleep you are.

You will wake up when you wake up.

You are not sure you're going to sleep again.

So this level of danger was there for all the journalist in in that place is your name is all about being able to talk to people feel the story and talk to people and in order to talk to the people you have to travel and there is a rest because you don't know the car driving near you has a wanted person or the building you are going to do the interview is next Israeli song it so it's all risk.

I was not worried about myself because I decided to work as a journalist in this world soon.

I had many chances to leave Gaza and I decided to to work because I am from that place.

I belong to it and journalism is in my DNA and I want to continue do it but

Not my family I mean the what was like really make a TV over My Shoulder is my family.

Can you reflect on the experience of seeing people that you know people who works alongside dying it's very hard.

I win the first truck for me was The Killing of Georgie sirage like 3rd the 4th day of the of the war is the cameraman a freelancer and I saw him in tennis, because you were evacuated together to come and I tell him we are the only two rotis and I said we are the only two wrote to be will carrying this name all the joints to be careful about yourself that was the last time.

I saw him in next day.

He went back to Gaza city to collect something or something and then the house was destroyed and he was was kill.

I could was the first chuck for me very quickly while in the elderly.

Is my Close Friend we grew up together Elaine in the same university we lived in the same building for a long time and suddenly.

He lost his wife is kid and I can't do anything about him.

I have to drive now to see him and to be with him the last one.

I saw a lift together that morning 6 in the morning was leaving my Tintin nursery hospital iso30 cameraman, pleased to see him everyday used to have us together almost twice a week and he was the last one.

I saw singers with the last face when I took the bus and then and I left and I was like driving in the Haywain in Turkey and good able to message you that he was he was injured not tired and I couldn't continue.

I'm so sorry.

Oh, so sorry Christy how to stop by the road in a petrol station just to follow the news talk to people there and you know how difficult communication.

I couldn't continue my way and I couldn't come back.

I was stuck in this spot petrol station for 2-3 hours and talking about this year more than 100 102 128gb anybody can remind me conflict or War experience or witness this number of journalist killed many injured.

What is the sum of the video saying that they are only doing journalism, but they are doing another another job all of this needs to be investigated.

We need to know exactly why they killed.

Number of journalist in Gaza and most of the offices for journalists for destroyed local production company will destroy and journalist work from hospitals, because the only when you have any Felicity and internet so in order to do their job.

They have to be operating from the hospital.

We have journalist killed in the hospital so no place is safe.

I think it's the most dangerous job that any journalist in the world do now is Gaza and when you left last November how did you get out? How are you able to get out was the cruising was closed and then the open it to allow the people who got injured and the people who have nationals and since my wife is Turkish have a Turkish passport so far to the evacuation process.

Is that the whole family so I was evacuated by the Turkish authority and since then you've been based on esperanto use.

Been working for the BBC and working on the coverage getting information out of Gaza Jeremy Bowen who you work with a lot you probably an interview with the senior member of her mouth last week.

He told me that you were very involved in that.

Can you explain how those kind of interviews come about will use to be used when we used to be in Gaza and and list risky, but in order to get this interview took me to 3 months of organiser kit and initially it was supposed to be done with hernia, and then when they killed any I went to his funeral to do this decided about how famous choosing his successor to all of them including and I've told him we need an interview with him and he doesn't agree in the beginning because he was not happy with the BBC coverage and we were not 100% sure about it, so I give the confirmation about 18 hours before and I drove straight away to the airport at.

Fly to Doha today and sisters do you have to be there and I went with Jeremy and we did the just minutes before Iran for rockets at Israel at the gate like leaving the interview before October 7th and before this war how easy was it to operate inside Gaza Liberty section in the coverage and the restriction in the places where we can go and where we can't go under the context that this is a security issue for us as a senior journalist for the BBC I was the office manager as well.

So my job was I spend half of my life applying for permissions, so you have to apply for a permission to film in the gas supply for permission to hit the film in the Hopper and I have been questioned or any time by especially when you go out and in of Gaza part of my job is

Launch to Jerusalem to do meetings in tourism and sometimes to cover from those so everytime I go out or in together.

I found someone was she and how are you in terms of who you can talk to and could you and your reports feature people who criticise to mass for example? There was a lot of restriction and a lot of pressure.

I think 2 years ago.

I've done a story about a young man was leading protest against Hamas and then you committed suicide.

I think they went mad about it.

It took like to 3 months to just released all of these restrictions are put around me one time to send a message to my wife, what kind of message somebody claim that you've also hummus and they said tell your husband to stay silent when I send in the message should know this is a joke was not with won't have anybody under.

I remember to somebody called me and he said look we are from the intelligence and I said yes my my home is in this building.

I'm in the 7th of May and my flat number is there and I haven't done anything wrong with that is doing our true if you give me the permission to work I have to do my job properly and what is the pain like for you somebody from Gaza who loves Gaza not being there.

It's alright.

We are physically outside but our minds our heart or so lol there father is 75 and he live in a tent.

He lives in a tent and sometimes hear that there is a strike in the area where he lives and you can do anything for the next 2-3 hours until you hear back from him, and I lost many people got recently my wife lost her aunt and you.

You can do anything for them you try you try to talk to people like give them some hope but it is really hard to ask you.

How do you assess the international coverage of the Conflict how the Western media has reported at the send me messages saying you should resign you should have shouldn't work for an international media anymore because they are price.

They are Israel and the people always compare Russia Ukraine war.

What about this girl was killed in Ukraine BBC will do more about it, so was that feeling among Palestinians that the BBC is doing more about Ukrainian Russian work because it's in Europe is different from the Middle East in the West

Could get into Gaza what have we missed it sounds and what you are saying before that actually we've missed of course being able to check the fact more swiftly it take such a long time for you to check what's happening latest more than the Palestinians my Twitter account for what they call it now every time you write anything because you are Palestinians between you have somebody who is not part of the story.

Didn't leave the story you will feel it in a different way.

Well.

I tried my best.

I tried my best to out my car from day one to go in line with BBC Victoria policy in covering this story and I received a tremendous amount of criticism.

Dylan Gaza when I when I used to do my two ways in the hospital some of the people used to listen to my two ways you shout at me by the end of it because why you use it Israeli army.

That's really cool patient.

You are Palestinians you have to say that no, sorry to buy why you say killed not mastered.

We are busy with exactly the story we don't use any language that can be seen as bias to this side or the other side of the Alice and you can watch a longer version of our interview on the BBC news channel this weekend or iPlayer just search for the media show all so you can watch the new BBC storyville documentary surviving October 7th.

We will dance again.

I'll BBC College Christian belief describe.

To convey the experience of Gardens to people consuming BBC journalism around the world, how do you assess the efforts of international media to report on and convey the expense of israelis in the last year first one to say few words about routine.

Who is I think a model for any and really an astonishing professional and honest honest understanding witness not only to the suffering in Gaza but also to what it is like to work as a journalist when your entire life is converted into a war zone and that's what he was describing so I just want to said that Rusty's level of work is very very rarely met and I think that in the course of the last year we've seen some exceptional journalism on the

International media, but I also think we've seen a lot of mistakes the interface between Israel and international media and Israeli media and social media has not been good been filled with superficiality and misunderstandings.

I think it's important to mention that the Israeli government has no professional comes team as difficult as that may be to understand.

It's the truth there's no spokesperson for the prime minister.

No 10 press conferences hear the Israeli government years ago led by the same Prime Minister decided on an attitude towards the media was completely absent of any professional Handling of the media.

There are a number of israelis who speak on behalf of either military or the government who are free.

Featured in the media both Israeli media and international media, but before we continue with that subject.

I'm interested in what you said about misunderstandings.

What do you think are the misunderstandings that perhaps are making their way into reporting of Israel that helps us misunderstand the Israeli experience has contributed to the understanding by not having actual professional teams handling international media, so the people you describing or individuals many volunteers in the past year, but I think that the level of the trauma experienced by israelis in last year was covered basic on the first few days of the war and then again in the last week, but because of the magnitude of the Israeli retaliation against.

Itself against all of guys and the suffering of individual guys and their helplessness.

I think that the Israeli story to a certain extent was lost israelis.

I think don't understand is international news coverage at all and have more or less and shrunken coverage of the experience of dozens as they see it.

Just a really covered which is another part of this tragedy and can I have to bring back in please? Stay there no, but I'd love to bring zanny Minton beddoes back in editor and chief of The Economist salary festival just for your reflections on what Christian and did not know they have been saying to say that was done and ordinary Dobbies in unbelievable journalist and your you're very lucky the BBC to have him.

I would agree with know that there is a lack of understanding.

Israel of the trauma that Israel is going through it's one of the things that struck me most when I went Thursday May and then again in June this is a fractured shocked society that is his really love living as I was still October 8th it is it I was stunned at the degree to which israelis were had not come to what happened the political system is dysfunctional in many ways, it's a it's a society that is really still in shock and that I think helps to explain why isn't international lack of understanding about is an important element of this and I think it was it was one example.

Why it was so powerful that she go there before or after I went into guy that I went to one of the pazzini Ros which is one of the committee very close to the fence that was attacked and I mean that it's

Horrific Arsene even months later and I got a very powerful sense of the lack of the insecurity that is really feel and that permeates the centre what's going on in Israel and you just supposed that with the with the terrible suffering that the Palestinian people are suffering and explain so well, because I was going to ask as it does the media also have an understanding the trauma Palestinians this offering is in both side.

There is there is tremendous tremendous shark on the Israeli side that the worst atrocities in the Holocaust and extraordinary suffering of the Palestinians and I think that leads me and of course.

What what you gonna miss ultimate is in the business of this analysis in joining a try to make sense of the world and where it's going it.

I have a greater understanding that I did before of the political.

Racing in Israel and look at it for me outside you think how can Israel possibly not understand is really not understand that the only solution to this is a two-state solution at some point if you actually look at the pin poles israelis in a bit.

I think it's a country and shocked at the same time.

It's blindingly obvious that the military only approach of this current government cannot possibly lead to lasting peace and and you stand from the outside and you think it is difficult in such a polarising and emotion field topic or people to understand the nuances bedside you need to understand both sides to see how you are and is part of your efforts to understand the situation in the Middle East The Economist has interviewed people from Hamas the by Jeremy Bowen recently in the last few days interviewed senior figure within her mother know guitar Polski I wonder if you agree with that decision by the BBC and also.

When is decision on behalf of The Economist to speak directly on the record with people in senior roles within Hamas to speak with these people? I don't think speaking into the interviewing a senior member from ass is a massive public service to the world really the heart of our job.

I I think it's also part of our job to provide context for that to provide back checking for that not to allow and islamists Melissa to speak freely in a propagandistic way, but absolutely I think it's crucial for leaders in the world to be able to hear those kind of interviews remember even some of the most important leaders don't have access to speaking a man seeing your Hamas officials.

And if I could just bring you in just to ask you in terms of that interview the parameters the restrictions the thoughts around it just talking about the bigger public service.

I'm sure you've in similar terms.

Did you so there were no restrictions? It was a podcast interview can listen to it.

You can find it on the Intelligence I think we probably on October 9th October 10th last year the way we did it was whether the whole show and we provided context for every we should have took took the most important clips of what he had said and then we provided context and explanation for them because I was very very aware of not wanting to have us unchallenged beyond although I did tell him you're here we pay for the first 5 minutes without any clips taken at all and and you can you can hear my voice.

I'm afraid be disbelief bordering on on close to anger as I was listening to him.

Deny that any atrocities have been committed he denied any children have been killed and it was it was.

To take we then we've been into space back with analysis and context from Great costume Middle East correspondent precisely in order to give our listeners.

I hope the contacts to this interview and it's interesting you using the word context know there was also using that word contacts then perhaps sometimes.

There's always a also can be a tension between the way that use works and the space that sometimes context requires podcast certainly from The Economist BBC and many others creates that space for context while you're still with us.

Let me also ask you about wanting The Economist his has done recently you have an app called espresso which is now going to be free for students.

This is understand it a distilled version of some of The Economist work including work.

I'm reporting on the Middle East why you decided to make this free.

I'm glad you are happy and having tough subject for the rest of the show.

Why are we doing it we are.

Bite-sized app which provides concise daily briefing on the most important stories in business politics and Culture we are making it free to students because we think it's extremely important to accessible to a broader audience.

We want younger people who think of this time given where the world is it's very important to have our kind of analysis of joining analysis in Bitesize for your also hoping that having experienced this for 4 no fee that as those students Babs going to the workplace.

They made then we willing to pay for the full version of vehicle will be thrilled if any of these to become subscribers, but we hope meanwhile that they will have their interest peaked in the horizon's broadened in a way that is accessible with video with quizzes with cartoons.

It's a cool.

I'll check it out on on Android or iOS economist espresso alright.

We'll have a look.

Thank you very much indeed.

That's any Minton beddoes editor and chief of The Economist who is back with us here on the Mead

Now also, thank you to know who it was on earlier and thank you very much for joining us both of you, but now to a campaign that we first featured on the media back in 2013 expert women is a project which monitors the number of female authority figures across major UK news programs when it began over 10 years ago male spurts out number their female counterparts by 41 even 5 to 1 on some of these shows now and it's tent and final year.

How has the situation improved well with the media show studio by the founder of the project leasehold professor Emeritus of journalism City University of former managing editor of Sky News and the first female head of news ITV as well as you're very welcome.

Tell us what you started this the truth is it wasn't just me and it started rather before the 10 Years the academic project is 10 years old but we actually started this with broadcast magazine and it's wonderful editor.

Is the Campbell she started running articles in broadcast where we anecdotally really looked at the figures for how many expert women wear on various programs and they were really outrageous and looked at 1, which was 17 times as many men as women at one particular occasion, so we did that in the broadcast magazine once a month and it's got some traction and one of the reasons it worked with problems competitive with other because they don't be the one that's really doing down women in fact Harriet Harman was then the equalities minister and Lisa at 1.00 to her and she then spoke to Tim Davie who was not the director-general is acting director-general the time and they started these wonderful days at the BBC called expert women training days and over the years hundreds of women have gone through the first of all it was Donna taberer.

Who did it to the BBC Academy and later for NHS and didn't they run until 2018 and lots and lots of women when they went on to the programs?

City University looked at the data that we don't ask for a broadcast magazine and decided there was nothing to information to start a proper academic program and we did that by measuring the same six programme every year several months a year and comparing the data and programs being some of the most high-profile news programs in the country Channel 4 News Sky News originally at 5 and then a breakfast ITV News at Ten today on BBC Radio 4 BBC News at Ten and channel 5 news and we track them and when you're talking at experts Liz what how do you define? What is an expert because people always ask this in the sense of it quacks like a duck quacks like an x-rated is an expert, but I don't know when you send me surprise, but it's really to do with people speak because on the news their opinions of value not because they Witnesses

Vox pops or sufferers in some way because they're there for their opinions and we cover everybody who is in that Neath so for example.

We will cover politicians and PR anybody who's there, but the value of their opinion or because of their authority ok, and what are the results for 2024 what what can you tell us? What can you reveal a real that yesterday to a conference varesino media as and politicians but what did you do that? I can tell you now that we have actually halved the number of men to the number of women but it is more women are very twice as many with the exception of Channel 5 which is always an outlier and is rather better, but looking at this.

I've got the figures in front of me BBC News at Ten has an over 2 Men to every woman on the show back in 2014 it was for ITV News at Ten slightly worse.

Phone uses pretty good Sky News at 2.00 221 and the Today programme has been a very interesting historical is it to pt-141 as I say channel 5 news is the best because I mean I definitely know that somebody's watching news for long time.

I've been very aware of this and we do always try to find female experts to talk on it in pieces.

I've done and programs.

I've worked in I'm interested was wondering why you think we haven't reached parity and everybody is think about this but still not there.

I know it's strange.

I think with the big piece of the jungle.

That's BBC News at Ten ITV News at Ten there is a historical leaning towards male authority on this program is traditionally there at 10 at night and that was when men were home from work and free to talk and middle-class Men where is the news at 6? She might get more women that's good making the tea, so there is a historical thing that these big b statz.

It's a male-dominated program.

I think also it is quite difficult to make sure that you get women on the show and

Latest can make excuses a lot and one of the ones that always came up as well.

If only doing the popes a man so we've got to interview a man and that might be true in a tiny minority of roll.

I can't believe they will occasionally you do get that the other one you get in a woman.

Don't really want to come on this show women are a bit more trouble you have to spend a long time for Sweden me so now.

I've got I've got a dominant female editors and that attitude is changing with a confidence crisis with some women I think and the still more that we can do to make the programs try even harder to become equal with men and women let's give him the data that you just shared with us and some of the challenges that you're still outlining.

I'm sure some people will be thinking back to the introduction on this item thinking God and you've said this is initiative is finishing when clearly describe that there is a great day of work still to be done so what's the story there the academic project it's finishing because it's been 10 years and the university has put a lot of money in the effort into it.

I am the academic.

And I'm retired and I said I came back from retirement to do the 10-year conference, but I don't want to be always doing this.

It's extremely owners but I also have another another thing in my head here and we had a conference yesterday will be expected but 60 people in 90 people out of coffee which was a bad thing in a good way and there was such passion in the room about their some people were saying no you look twice as many men is not good.

I suppose I'd love myself into thinking we make such huge strides and it's still great to have got to only twice as many men and it was a wake-up call for me at the conference the passion in the room trying to get this Tupac and you need someone else to take it over for you was listening.

Yeah, you know what about you guys.

I've been thinking about this and when we started this it was sort of grassroots pass.

It was Lisa Campbell at broadcast to put it out there and got the attention through these articles and she had several prominent attack we did the data.

We did the programs competing with each other and we were externally.

University we weren't involved in counting in the same way as the 50:50 project at BBC for the excellent monitoring a deity we were outside and therefore critical and people really talk noticed.

When did be wonderful if you went back to finger grassroots project again and one of the magazines out.

There.

Are you just selves started running these figures instrumentally started the 50/50 thing here at the BBC so he has been involved in this.

I just wondered are there from your 10 years of experience are there particular genres where women are on in 2015 and we found that the genre were women will least well exposed as expert what would domestic politics uneven fire in politics domestic politics was terrible male-dominated also we have some very interesting work during the pandemic in the March and April 2021.

We did it for Woman's Hour actually and we found that in the March there was an overwhelming number women expect it wasn't part of it was very nearly there and that's because the news story at the Times care homes in NHS and a lot of female managers Cena's expert a month later.

We have one of the worst ratio of men to women in our terms for a long time it went back to three times as many minutes does all of a sudden it was scientists and politicians that were being interviewed so the story and the nature of the story does dictate whether or not you have a predominance of men or women and that in itself is very shoulder to start thinking about the stories that they're using and just playing it explains my pushy or a princess something that you was a qualitative survey.

You did back in 2016.

What was about his ass around about the women don't want to repair all precisely because given the data the next thing you have to do academically is to find out why that data is existing and so we look fit squad.

Surveys at women themselves and we also looked at qualitative surveys with all the journalists and it was very very interesting because lots of journalists.

This is what 9 years ago was saying things like lol we don't want no because they say that you know they're going to look pushy and so we did a sort of search for the word pusheen all the qualitative research and we found them very high minority of the women that not all of the large number of women that answered I said I don't want to look for she and particularly with male colleagues academics particularly about that if they were on the the TV or the radio they look pushy and that this was and then the journal is Settle the other side of the coin is we do get these women and we have to spend hours persuading them and we really work on persuading them and then they say this could have my bum it's a total waste of the journalist time so it was the pushy or princess idea, so it is interesting to my mind there is still confidence and a problem with women not all women in all the time.

Will it still exist perhaps the expert women days which the BBC did could be taken on again because they really did make such a difference so that's the call out there anybody wants to take from thank you very much for coming on the media show and all the day to the Liz was just driving there can easily be found online now before we wrap up on the media show there is an important day in the UK publishing coming up because tomorrow is 2024 super Thursday this is the biggest publishing day in the year almost 1900 books that you to be published some big names on that list Boris Johnson Shirley Ballas Ian Rankin here to explain why this is such a big day for publishers.

We're joined by Maya Snow news editor at the bookseller.

Just give us I'm going to guess.

I think most people realise why is called super Thursday but just tell us where that come from? What does it mean so you put it pretty simply essential.

Is the biggest publishing date of the year 1900 books it was a phenomenon that was actually identified by the bookseller back in 2008 and although you name it then the books on Super Tuesday the American reference exactly exactly 1900 books 450 of them tomorrow or hardbacks either debuts all-new novels or memoirs or whatever so it's incredibly busy time, but it is I mean this whole period is very very busy for publishing in the run up to Christmas and it's at the moment.

We're all the money is made on the run up to Christmas the most important.

I mean you it sounds obvious to save I mean you can even look at the numbers.

I mean last year the biggest hits from Christmas 2023 were all published on onto the Thursday and they called it super Tuesday how's it going out all day today Tuesday right because books in the UK come out on Thursday do traditionally come out.

Say but most books you will see I mean as someone who looks at rightdeals almost every single day.

There are the days but generally they do tend to be Thursdays and this is the biggest one ok, then what's coming out this Thursday I mean you can't not mention Unleashed of course the biggest one is Bros Johnson's probably expected to be the best selling politics book of the Year competition.

I won't we work with I need to go down that route, but this year I mean streets post on the edges been for a long time.

I mean Boris Johnson is going to knock Rory Stewart off most likely what else is on that list.

I mean you've got in rankings new one which would like to be given a booster given the limitation was on BBC recently Sophie Kinsella new one cake master difficult and the hearts mama's coming out tomorrow as well, so all the big names but interestingly it's the one of the three of the biggest books of the year already out Richard osman's Jacqueline Wilson's

Of course intermezzo by Sally Rooney they all came out last month would like we don't we don't need to be Thursday exactly bestseller list predictable.

Could you make a good guess who will have sold the most bye-bye January so I mean super Thursday the really good place to start because of historically they have all been on the bestseller list.

I have always been the best sellers up until the end of the year, so whether Johnson's become the biggest book of the Year who's to say, when was Men become the biggest book of the year but you don't get too many surprise hits.

I just want to book talk on tiktok for example gets reference to lot is that changing the dynamic around sales definitely and it is so interesting with adaptations as well.

Just put things back at the chats so Colleen hoovers.

All of hers are pretty much always in the charts.

Especially right now with her bad at the film come.

Just tell her so she is it ends with us it starts with us.

She hit big hits and think the song came out of the couple months ago Blake Lively in it and that pushed it right back to the the book charts a few a few weeks last month so she could be back in the top again.

How do they work bookseller will have its rankings the Sunday Times list which is a cost for a well-known Amazon has its rankings other booksellers have their rankings.

Is it all pure sales is pretty much.

I mean pretty much everyone uses what it's called Nielsen bookscan.

So we and they think you can put publishers complete purchase ISBN through them and then they collect all the point of sale data from physical book shops and online retailers is a separate this aside from the publishers or the booksellers which is in charge of number sales figures income that you get so they look at the number of sold and they look at the money that comes in from that and then.

Amazon will also have their own child so they will also have all the chats so these are the most sold books on our platform and that is why I think I've booked up probably do change things quite a lot because we have smaller books that it's online you might not find in Waterstones on display.

Will be there on Amazon bit more about Amazon how that one works quite house cynical a cold hard cash house cynical decision-making is around what do publishing WhatsApp rubbish on Super Thursday and we can have no idea air fryers do really well, what happens if you put Richard Osman book about an hour go through the roof or is it not specifically this is an interesting one because actually his new one we solve murders is slightly down sales from the first to write about the Thursday murder club mystery about an air fryer and maybe that's that maybe that's the key here.

But I'll publish this type of works really well, so could we get this type of all the right this type of Bergen and we'll put it on Super Thursday and it's going to be a Christmas you pretty much.

Just somebody I mean we see also seen a lot of kind of you know that kind of famous celebrity collaborations and Reese Witherspoon has been up with Harlan Coben the Iceland viola.

Davis is bringing out with somebody like that so that you do have that celeb name on it and that's probably a bit more likely to be published in that sense to and this has also published murder mysteries right.

No, I didn't like black Friday no no, that's not what I wanted.

We could just step back a bit in terms of books sales because he we are many many years after the internet and people still buying physical books in in huge numbers, but how do book sales around Christmas in 2024 compared with 2014 or 2004? What's the trend trend?

Going up I mean up I might hope it's really difficult is difficult to say I mean the there was a slump of publishing in the pandemic.

Obviously I mean you the number for actually printed so in that sense.

She is slightly skewed because obviously things with increased since then and I do think actually weirdly.

There was probably as I can people reading around the pandemic as well as a lot more time.

Maybe not so weird make sense what is going off.

It seems is AI generated Amazon being reportedly flooded with ai-generated books has the publishing world the Willows development we actually started really looking into this at the moment the main issues around that's including academic publishing at the moment.

Where some academic publishers selling authors work to pay a company to train their what they called large language models are essentially they eyes and there wasn't concerned about royalties and contracts.

And a lot of them are now kind of changing the way they do things and making sure all these are done properly and authors are getting it, but the question is of course you know if I can do this academic.

What's the stop them doing commercial books and then just getting an AI to write a bestseller.

I mean that who's to say? That's not going to be next time.

We have not been able to give you the very thorough briefing now.

I'm going to ask you one last question so you've got ebooks audiobooks and you've got the physical but yes which sell the most I mean it's got to be through pure numbers.

It's got to be either because you can self publish you've got Kindle people can sell for the must be just too short sheer numbers of books that are available.

It's going to be digital.

It's coming up super Thursday if you work in the publishing industry.

I hope it goes well for you.

I just very very keen reader.

There's a lot of new titles coming away in the next 24-48 hours.

We give me some good ideas for all combinations as well, but thank you so much both Myers

That is it for this week.

Thanks very much for listening and thank you to all guests remember you can listen to All editions of the media show on BBC sounds you can listen whenever you fancy you can watch ITV edition on BBC News at the weekend, but for me and Katie bye.

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