Read this: BBC News cuts, Isis Prisons Museum, the perils of press junkets

Was Anne Boleyn really a wicked Queen people feed women who were smart die-hard deviant Legends under scrutiny BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome in a minute the BBC Stevenson on his show hard took being act a development.

He says is depressing news for the BBC and archive documents in the Islamic state group horrific treatment of captives has gone online.

Created by a group of journalists and the director of the project will explain the years of work that has gone into it the former channel 4 TV executive David Abraham will join us on white auction companies should think about making programs and adverts as well.

We're also going to talk about press junkets not something I would say I've done a lot.

I did a couple many moons ago including interviewing Emma Thompson when for various reasons.

I don't know if it's never happened to Katie I wasn't able to see the film in question and didn't feel great to start that whole process by admitting that I hadn't seen the subject of the interview went ok.

You've done more than me though.

I haven't have said you always watch the film that is for sure but I hate to junk it and if I do one I insist and I'm looking up because I'm the editor I suppose I offer my way if I tried and sit on a separate interview not doing in front of the queue.

Junk-it background that people get and also getting a decent chunk of time with someone by which I mean 15 to 20 minutes because really you can't do much in.

4 minutes 5 minutes 6 minutes is an art form and I'm not sure I haven't asked that well.

We're going to explore how to do them perhaps.

I'm not to do them a bit later with a journalist to describe a junket interview with Anne Hathaway years back as top-notch cringe.

It's gone viral since you posted it recently and the journalist and questions says she's now receiving apology well.

We're going to talk to her about how to approach junk-it.

Why they do sometimes work and why sometimes they don't but we're going to begin with this week's announcements by BBC news of a range of cuts and restructuring in total will be a net loss of 155 jobs with 130 journalism roles at risk and 25 technical roles including camera operators Deborah Turness chief executive of BBC News called it a tough day does the designed to save 24 million per year that part of wider BBC efforts to say 700 Million by 2028 and as part of this some programs are going.

The long form interview programme hard talk with broadcast in the UK and around the world on BBC News and also broadcast on BBC World Service radio talkSPORT enter is Steven Steven is here with us Steven thank you so much for coming into the media show industrial particular must be a very very very very difficult time for you and your team you have said that it's depressing for the BBC and all who believe in the importance of independent rigorous deeply research journalism.

Just explain what you mean well.

Thanks.

Rose to inviting me on it.

It's a difficult day to be discussing this because things are very raw.

You know we only learnt it yesterday and it came out of a frankly a clear blue sky we did not have a clue that hard to close down and my wonderful team is very sharp sand and very sad, so I should say that the road beginning I should also say but everything I

Want to say is with a great love for the BBC because this has been my life.

You know I've been a journalist at the BBC is a foreign correspondent presenter of hard.

Talk out for the best part of four decades, so this is difficult for me, but why did I bleed out what I tweeted well because while I'm very sad for my Dolphin for the team and concern for the team my greatest sadness and this isn't this isn't in anyway being disingenuous.

My Grace is sadness and concern is what this says about the BBC's commitment to the kind of journalism that I believed in all of my professional life.

I think the BBC is making a grave mistake by closing.

We can talk more about that if you like absolutely and just before we do that depressing quote that you mentioned that you put onto a sore xx you've also been retweeting.

I know quite a lot really critical stuff about the

Somebody saying you how hard it could be seen as expendable is beyond me someone else saying that BBC senior management have a death wish sometimes.

We'll talk about this is nuts the BBC is in cells.

Do you need to talk about how long you been at the BBC do feel this loyal reposting comments lots of decision going to have a debate about this.

You know the official line.

Is that having made the announcement of a closure of hard.

Talk there.

Is there a period of consultation so I'm going to actively engage and that period of consultation.

I think it's my duty to do so not just for myself in the team but for the literally millions and millions of people around the world who have cherished and valued hard took an exemplar of rigorous properly researched holding to account journalism for decades and I can't tell you in the last 24-hours the reaction time.

Tweet has been extraordinary you know I've had the odd viral tweet before this is something else.

You know we've had haven't got my phone with me right now, but I think it the last count I saw it was almost 3/2 million views of my little tweed.

We've had like the run into the finger and 14000 at the moment, but the messages all have one thing in common.

They come from around the world often from people who live in countries where the journalist are not able to ask the questions that those people would like to see asked of their politicians we get to those questions and Stephen imagine we ask the BBC to come on and take part in the programme.

They said they didn't feel it was appropriate given.

There is a live HR process underway, but they did send a statement so let me that it says hard talk has done great work across the last 25 years, but we've had to make some tough decisions given the level of savings required and changing audience habits people are coming to a News Channel 4 live and breaking news what?

The whole of BBC News we have hard-hitting long form interviews and discussion on many or more platforms than ever for instance via are on global on their editors and our Debate and discussion programmes no longer afford to run so many bespoke programme teams and has the BBC heads in a digital Direction isn't that final point about individual program teams won the needs to be acknowledged.

We can pick that bit-by-bit if we have time we can start maps with some numbers and and some mathematics the BBC News operation has save 24 million understand savings after come.

There is a squeeze on the licence fee.

We yoomi all of us.

We know that Financial Times are very difficult at the BBC but hard talk is an extraordinarily cost-efficient program this isn't just defending my turf.

This is just fact that it is also true though that long form interviews do occur.

Areas of BBC out but weather is in the morning on the Today programme on Radio 4 whether it's one off with Jeremy Bowen interviewing senior figure from her mouth whether it's on 5 live on used.cars.for Newsnight was extraordinary work done by my colleagues all over the BBC but there is not there is not one single other program is only mission is to do the forensic research to focus on these hold to account interviews in the international Arena I asked the boss is when they announced they told me that they're closing the show is there going to be another long form interview so devoted to just this kind of journalism which is so valued not just in this country but around the world the simple answer is no no the I was your pudding the BBC's argument for that.

You know what John Lewis gather all sorts of interviews all the time and if they're big enough and good enough will run them across the live and continuous network and I understand that then there's nothing planned mentally wrong with that argument.

That there is something different about a team that is trained and has The Resource and the intellect to prepare these interviews to work for months on process for example and then on the deep research necessary to do the interview in the way that I feel it should be done that if you don't have a team that is devoted to that if you're simply say news journalist.

You're on a big Story by the way if you get a grade interview will drop that into the network.

That is not the same and I don't have to say that in the BBC's coverage in recent days weeks months sometimes.

They have been interview with figures big figures sometimes which haven't been done in the way.

I would have done them.

I'll be very honest about it you thinking me and then is a tough question is a horrible question to ask somebody when they're in a job.

Do you think hard talk just didn't generate enough headlines.

I didn't have enough impact outside hard talk and that's why in the end of us is made this month.

All about how content is used content is King and content needs now to be really properly spread across the BBC forms.

We do it for television.

We do it for radio.

We have a podcast we tried and succeeded for a while, but I content on YouTube it had a fantastic fantastic audience on you then for various complicated strategic reasons the babies BBC decided that our YouTube channel had to be taken off there are things that we need to think about how we audiences in different ways across different platforms, but hardtop was absolutely in that discussion.

I feel if I'm honest that sometimes mistakes to teach it mistake about how to use the hard talk content but that's a complicated debate that I hope to having the coming weeks with some of the bosses we talked about this before and the media show about where BBC

Send goes whether it needs to go primarily on BBC platforms or whether we can go on third party platforms such as YouTubers is one the continues to play out and the BBC as I'm sure you know at the moment size is putting content on its own platforms, but I just want to dig further into this argument that your team has a a set of specialist skills are not for a moment suggesting that they don't but surely swearing BBC News there are also those specialist skills to be found if we take for it and I both Steve Rosenberg extraordinary interview with president lukashenko or whatever the example might be because I think you're your sort of setting up to be antagonistic within the BBC which I have no intention of doing I want to make it plain throughout this interview.

I love the BBC I do not come to this with personal and Ms or Mrs when he has read something saying the BBC is in self-destruct.

I think I have every right to reflect the feelings of the people who listen and watch on tour.

Around world these on my feelings but the feelings of people who are reaching out to me who are feeling a huge sense of what's right now and I will just want you to this what I feel.

Is it someone awkward in the BBC has found itself in the very day that it was announced our talk with closing and don't forget can't talk is the only branded surveys both independent and BBC surveys show that hard talk is the only journalistic program that cuts through right around the world that everybody associated with core BBC values of rigorous challenge of impartiality of fairness.

It's the program with an identity around the world that cuts through in that way at the very tiny Tim Davie was saying that the BBC World Service is such an important expression of democratic soft power the taxpayer should take over the funding of BBC World Service on the very same day the BBC announces that it is acting it's most important flags.

Current affairs interview programme I think that I suppose doesn't see it as it's as those things otherwise it wouldn't be talking about what the BBC TV audience filled.

It is and I probably travel as much as any journalist in the BBC and I've been doing it for the last 20 years and I do have to tell you the reaction I get from people around the world is extraordinary, but you don't take it from me take it from many different Media commentators around the world who in last 24-hours frankly completely gobsmacked.

They are just asking they're asking on social media and elsewhere.

How and why can this be happening talk about how much time you spend your giving her working life to the BBC hard.

Talk if you can and thinking more widely about the future of the BBC where you think we are at this point clear.

The company's having to make huge cock CNN all sorts of people have already announced big cuts to the news.

How do you reflect the moment at the BBC is that right now? It's difficult I didn't quite get to finish my bit of Mathematics earlier, but I can tell you the of the BBC News savings that are are necessary right now the percentage of savings that will come from closing hard talk represent the very low single digits in percentage terms, so we're not I don't want you to go away thinking you know what if they are going to see the shedload of money because they're absolutely not then don't forget that every single week are output includes three fresh hard talking to use that go across radio division podcast.

Can I also asked you been at the BBC as you said an awfully long time? Are you leaving you know? This is what I said and it's only happened in the last 24-hours but again this sounds cliched and I hope it comes across in the right way.

This is not about me.

I've been so fortunate.

It has been my privilege to work for the receiver.

So long and if I leave next year because the idea is that hard work will continue to broadcast until the end of March next year leave next year.

I will feel blessed to have had the BBC career.

I've had but this isn't driven by personal despair anger resentment any of that it is me caring enormously about the BBC's reputation about it's journalism about the way it's audiences respond to it around the world.

I I I hope I'm

That message across I certainly do care deeply about the future of my staff my stuff of the hard talk team around me but in the end.

I think it's a it's a bigger issue than that Steven thank you for making time to speak to us such a difficult time.

Thank you very much for the BBC Stephen sackur protection.org, thank you now to agree with Janice seeking to hold the Islamic state group to account for attractions this year marks 10 years since I asked the glad it's caliphate many people were held in captivity by the the document what happened to them a project was established in 2017 that was when a group of journalists filmmakers and active is began.

Going into deserted Aires prisons to collect evidence since they have documented more than 100 prison sites across Iraq and Syria Gathering photos videos as documents and witness testimonies there archive the Isis prisoners Museum has launched this month.

Is now publicly accessible is director is a matter.

I talked to him earlier about his personal reason for starting the project in 2013.

Isis kidnapped my is Madonna not have he was a cameraman filming the city and like the fight between the society and gender differences a group in the city when he was doing that Isis kidnapped him the first time in the summer and we didn't have information about him since then until now and restart many different things to catch any like to have any information any news about him, but we didn't like it was so hard but in 2017 when the war against Isis start they start.

The cities where they take and we had this possibility to go to each Building and check if there is any information about him in the process when we was doing that we start to phone thousands of document information information about missing people and so you were searching for your brother who been taken by Isis you then start looking in arriving in these prisons the execution centres these torture centres.

What did you find? Can you describe what you saw that sound like thousands of papers in the floor torture tools names and stories in the walls describe that what do you mean by names on walls most of the

Try to write the names in the world because when you are in this type of the presents you want to write your name in the world.

Just too to leave a message for your family or anyone maybe can enter this present after you and they will know you was there myself and I was in the cinemas in 2011.

I did that in each neurone and me and all the prison and other prisoners because I didn't know when this time if I Will Survive and that sticking people do a lot when they are ready close to be killed and they didn't know if they will return to their families and that's something like I think a lot of and what stories did you learn about from going into the prisons are there particular stories you remember about?

Dido people who survived the name of a median in a prison in area next to Anchor who was stories for his little fun.

I think you was few years old basin and many emotional like messages.

They were searching for this family because you write his details his address and other information and then I saw the firm and they don't know any information about him until now.

We just know the messages.

He left in the walls that you don't know what happened to that man know exactly like I don't know what happens with my brother and what do you hope this project the Isis Prison Museum what do you hope? It will achieve.

How houses of families to find information about the last ones but we try honestly to understand what happens and also to understand who was the leading this presence which systems a bald and explain this to the world.

I think that's so bored and and so to save this important because it's part of our dark history and we have to know what happens and to learn from that.

Do you think one day you will find out what happened to your brother.

I am so I'm working all the time and fighting the situation reality just to try to find any information like my mother all the time ask me if if there is any news about my brother if we have any information or

H A Matter talking to me earlier today and tell us more about this project.

We joined Now by Robin you seen kassab.

It's chief English editor Robin thanks for joining us on the media show first of all help us understand.

I just said you're at your job title but help us understand what your role involves English editor, which involves sometimes.

I write investigation reports myself a lot of the time.

I'm editing investigations and reports and 3D tours of prisons and subtitles of witness testimony at cetera et cetera.

That's been produced in Arabic so I'm editing and preparing it for the English language audience sometimes it needs a little bit more context dualization then it needs for the Arabic audience and we just heard they're about my brother presumably the Islamic state group relentlessly targeted journal.

As often as it could it did you know I was asked earlier.

How many journalists were taken by Isis and we don't have a precise figure that we can certainly dozens of course.

We've all heard about the Western journalists that were taken and negotiated for but there were many Syrian and Iraqi journalist to distinguish between an official journalist citizen journalist somebody who was uploading something to a Facebook page people who just taking photographs and I'm even people who you no access the internet from home rather than going through an Isis controlled internet cafe all of these people they put them on the bracket of spies and treated them very badly and many were taken into as prisons office ilities of some form when you and your colleagues have.

Those prisons to try and documented what happened there help us understand the work that that is involved.

Well one thing but firstly is Gathering any evidence that we find so as I'm upset with come up with a found over 70000 documents some of them on paper some of them type a lot of them on a hard drive.

Also one on phones that were left behind and they include internal correspondence directives arrest reports invest interrogation report audio recordings of interrogations.

I'm all kinds of documents plus clothing objects torture tools and then what the team did was there they filmed every 360° so that if you go to our website you can you can go on you know virtual tours of these buildings and you can zoom in.

the names written on the walls and other bits of forensic evidence and your mentioning there some technology you've used involved in the 360-degree filming in the way that you're putting on that I have used technology and other ways to to find ways of documenting all of the different types of material that you've just describe huge all of all of this documentation and other stuff to photographs and and and and and and so on of mass graves for example all of this information is being added you are archive and we've used a software called Curious Curious with a K which is the same software that was actually used for the Panama papers in the graph system a visual representation of data which shows the connections between entities so and it's fully searchable SO40

Type into the system and name like Muhammad Abdullah you will see you a visual representation of everywhere this guy's name has come up every documents that he's been mentioned in every prison or base or other sites that he's been associated with any administrative parcel devices that he's been connected to and finally let me ask you about 1 investigation that you've been particularly involved in with relation to the stadium prison in raka in Syria tell us about the particular work.

You did there well the stadium and rough as the name suggests that was a sports stadium, which was then taken over by various people in the Syrian Revolution progressed the first attempt after the Assad regime has been kicked out of the first attempt was actually Media civil Society Media people tried to set.

Media sensor Bosch that only lasted for a couple of months and they were evicted by islamists and malicious who made a sheriff court there then Isis kicked out those just took over the whole of rapper and it used as it's largest security prison as it called it in Syria and there were 46 rooms in the basement stadium where they detained people we with relied there specifically on the documents and the forensic evidence that we found in the stadium OL11 witness testimonies ex-prisoners plus interviews with civil engineers.

You knew about the building and its construction and the civil activist and a former jailer and out of that we put and of course you got hours and hours of witness testimony which is usually ex-prisoners standing in the rooms in which they were detained and tortured talking about what happened to them and we.

Four different investigations based on that one prison is an extraordinary undertaking Robin thank you very much indeed for describing it as robin Yaseen English editor of this project and has mentioned one of the aims of the Isis prisoners museum is to preserve evidence for future prosecutions prosecutions to understand this Dimension of the projects work.

I'm joined by Val McDermid Rhys professor of Law at Swansea University hello Yvonne thanks for coming on the programme just how useful are materials gathered by journalists in intern prosecutions for say war crimes and crimes Against Humanity because they've been pretty high profile examples of journalists actually giving evidence in the BBC's Jeremy Bowen testified at The Hague at the trial of War criminal for example.

Yes exactly I mean this the use of journalistic content isn't isn't really anything new as he said we had some very high profile examples of

Turn the testifying before the international criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and the international criminal tribunal for Rwanda and more recently than with a journalist testify before the international criminal Court in The Hague in the number of cases the use of journalistic content in this way is nothing new but I do think it's something that's going to Hayston with the advent off evidence and around the world are recognising how this kind of evidence basically stuff that freely available on the Internet can be used in the prosecution and proven international crimes and during the list a big role in that because often it's journalist who were at the forefront of this univera find this content reporting on it checking that it is standards with things like interview journalist interviews or photos or videos not standards need to be met in order for them to be used in court.

The verification so I'm in evidence law professor and I often train investigators a lawyer in different systems and one question.

What does the International criminal Court require probs unhelpful? It's not like there's a checklist that says if you want your evidence be admissible.

You have to do it so it's difficult lawyers answer, but it depends basically the international criminal courts has quite a liberal approach to the admission of evidence that admit evidence so long as it seems to be relevant, but also importantly reliable and that it's not a prejudicial to the rights of the accused to admitted.

So how do we show that something is really well that will come down to things like the chain of custody of the evidence so that Robin was mentioning there.

You know making sure that it's very clearly documented.

This is where we found this is how we poop.

That's all going to be relevant in determining the reliability of piece of evidence by today.

They're actually dedicated camera phone smartphone.

Apps that are designed specifically to help people who are documenting videos and images if they want them to be admitted in court so that the things I capture the metadata store is it security to ensure that it's dinner custody can be preserved and using up Robin I'm in the Isis present Museum when I first heard about it.

I found it so fascinating and so interesting but also very optimistic Innocence cos you think you know this is jealous and being used for the good with this in the sense of not just helping families, but also potentially helping future prosecutions, but are there other examples are there archives like that have successfully lead to prosecutions.

Photographs from prisons in in Syria out and they've been used for example.

There is a case in Koblenz in Germany a couple of years ago with used evidence from the Caesar files like a rich theme of archiving projects in the last decade or so perhaps on the most well known as the Syrian archive it's preserve something like 3.5 million videos from the interior online and they're archival material has been used and prosecutions in Germany and France is it common for Janice to testify in international criminal courts? I just showing the Leicester basically arrived and timber to and found a filing cabinets for the documents that were passed to the prosecution and that journalist was Ben called to testify.

An example of potential conflicts of interest for a journalist in this position and potentially for example and one of them to John Lewis does not want to do is reveal their sources, but how does that work when it in case of thinking about the role of the journalist are they and objective impartial Observer or are they someone who's the bear witness and those two things out of difference that their husbands and really interesting caseload again from the UK after being aware Witnesses journalist and tested play sometimes not wanted to come and test to buy the cord basically in that tribunal found that they can be compared to come only wear it directly relevant and recent and there's no other way of getting the international criminal court because it doesn't have the same Paris to compare, but you really interesting issue, which is sore.

So of course the confidentiality of sources is really important to join this and most legal systems do recognise a form of can a privilege can't be confidential sources I suppose the other side of that is how much weight can a court give to Everton swear it's an individual say something.

I will tell you who told me this and then you know the tensile they would we can pass exam that we don't know the original source doesn't sound like it was stand up in court as it really anyway.

Thank you so much McDermott Reid professor of Law at Swansea University thank you and you can see the Isis prisoners Museum online now know who was in the movie show studio is David Abraham former boss Channel 4 now CEO of wonderhood Studios I David thanks for coming in a new documentary that you've got out in a moment, but first of all I'm sure you've seen there be more reports in the press that.

Service broadcasters are going to need to find new ways to join forces.

They already do work together in some ways, but new ways to join forces to take on the streamers one suggestion being perhaps even a single stream products from all the public service broadcasters rather than iPlayer ITV X and so on there's no suggestion that this is happening, but do you agree with the the fact that these questions are being asked so I think there's probably two ways in which we could look at how the story will unfold in the in the months ahead one is that these stories are very consistent with many years of collaboration between the broadcasters on distribution on the things like selling advertising which Channel 4 began to do under my watch it on behalf of UKTV and the sensible ways of which the public service broadcasters compete with each other.

Now the other way of course whether that sufficient or whether me at 8 exactly any other way of looking at this is are there people in central government projections around Public Service Broadcasting over the next 5 to 10 years looking at the crossover between the amount of content is now streamed vs.

Going through people's aerials and coming to the conclusion that there's a there's a slide in existential question that needs to be asked and I think we don't know whether or not the conclusion of that might be the primary dislocation will be introduced by the government that will create more structural combinations of the broadcast there's so many people have talked about whether the BBC and Channel 4 could in some merge that comes up periodically a really big piece of legislation and I think the consequences in terms of what would the board of Channel 4 say about.

What would the responsibilities of the board of trustees of a complex idea and there's no suggestion? It's going to happen, but you're describing what would need to happen from the political side of this but I'm wondering what you think about the broadcaster side of this equation should they be actively seeking some of the scenarios that you're describing the Freeview was to the arrival of digital TV it came out of the crisis of the implosion of digital at the time.

So they've been several examples of how these things have happened in the past to the benefit of everyone.

I think what these conversations about now is what's the next stage of that? How does that affect streaming of critically everyone knows that channel 4 is an ad funded network and so immediately into some interesting questions about how to blend those two things together and indeed should the BBC take advertising itself you were chief executive of Channel 4?

Until 2017 the channel under your successes just posted as big as desert of all time 50 million lb 42023.

Are you worried about? It's future? Why did they also posted? I think before a significant surplus? I think they are always absent closing in the ad market which which are being managed carefully again, or is it the flow I never know which way round are the producers in and it's been well well discussed.

I think what we talking about here is really where where is viewing going over the next 5 to 10 years and the the PSPs of definitely benefited from a distribution system which is primarily linear and some of these ideas for the fact that also the kinds of content that being consumed is fundamentally different we know that short form and mood for video is growing exponentially.

Viewing is at best flat interestingly streaming services are not growing at the same place as they were here speed on a pretty good job in growing their viewing in what's will broadcast vod be better than many broadcasters around the world, so there's a lot to be encouraged by the question is where I might things be invited to 10 years time and he said that that channel 4 deficit is awesome Park connected immersion shifts in the advertising industry and I know that's the side of the business you follow closely because that's and company makes programs and adverts which is I think quite unusual not many producers.

Do this.

Why do you choose to help someone revenue stream certainly in the middle of covid and and and and the cost of living crisis is it has been tough for everyone but we also believe in in in ideas being generated in different shapes and sizes that sort of the philosophy of art.

Does it come compromise your approach to edit all your editorial approach? We are very clear so we do we have three types of content we have commission contents of the program were going to come on to discuss the nations program by BBC arts it has no brand Association at all then there a kind of programmes like super surgeons on Channel 4 that's been created in partnership with Macmillan for example where there is a an effective form of product placement where the brand is sponsoring the program but also appearing in it in an editorially Justified way, and then another part of my business produces adverts and that's you know commercial activity that some some to get involved with and that helps us of keep the machine moving forward in Clacton affect the money in well you mentioned this documentary like spend some some time talking about it's called the man who definitely didn't steal Hollywood it's on BBC 2 and

From this Friday here's a little bit video with all the Makings of a Hollywood script mysterious Italian movie Volvo and the world's largest media company in Hollywood with my past who is yet or can throw the money it's up to buy MGM so what was the pitch when you started talking to BBC in perhaps to others to about this idea and you thought write this down to 30 seconds 60 seconds to get their attention.

How did you put it? Well? You know this is a story about a larger than life character who should have let off at hand grenade in Hollywood in the early 1990s and it is extraordinary story and it's brilliantly told by the director John dower.

It's a really play full film that allows us to pick around the corner little.

Deals are done in Hollywood why is a track so much investment and thinking about this period was the students were being taken over by a large international companies in the case of Columbia Sony in Japan murder was taking over fox weight which cause that a lot of concentration and you can compare that to prove we're in now where an increasing number of students around by Tech companies and questions are asked about it.

What are the motive of ownership models and will they affect the editorial Decisions of the people who run the studios who controls the storytellers to use your phrase or revolves around one man just introduces two to him and there's and the story that you try and Trace out across the programme wonderful character was an orphan from the movie.

Here he works on on steam ships and was apparently a waiter in London serve, Winston Churchill but ended up becoming a very successful businessman, silly and through a series of deals ended up acquiring MGM Studios the trouble was the way in which you went about it attracted the attention of a character in a film called the public prosecutor who looked at the way in which the finance was raised and it turned out that he had a lot of money from credit Leone in a way that wasn't it was slightly opaque and with the subject to subsequent call cases you got him on board for your program and then I didn't the relationship ultimately break down just explain about another whether you have any qualms about platform.

This is the other delightful thing about the way the films have been made because it's past and observational documentary on we don't quite know what we're going to have before we start a film then, but it's really structured forensic story about a fraud as well that combines different aspects of documentary storytelling.

You're absolutely right the film actually playthrough plays with an argument that we had to the director John Deere hands with a drink.

I liberating about what the program should be called and as you guys will know the decision the title of a program or a film happens very late and it's usually the program control than the people at the top that will make that decision once they've seen a film.

So you don't start the process that the title is but lovely he wants to insist that he's going to influence the title is caused immediately creates a problem with the BBC cos he can't have it at what title did he want he well you'll have to watch.

I have the number of which followed his autobiography.

They were quite separate self-referential but the point being is that we John brilliantly the open up this argument all the way through the film and through doing that tells us something very interesting about and the subject of documentaries agreed to be in and what are their Motors what stories of trying to tell? What are the rights? I guess I'm one of their rights or other wonderfully we allow him to have his say he thought he talks very moving me about his life and and his experience at the same time we absolutely don't allow him to his statement to go on checked and that's passed the Entertainer because many other colourful characters come in and give their side of the story and why did the go ahead and seems that it was just too good to be true, but they brought into this and get them on face value going through.

Difficult time and and actually the chairman of the of the shareholders he sold the studio to karate is in the film is a fantastic character and and explain the interrelationship between the money and banking and an ownership in Hollywood how it works of course this is sort of large.

What's going on every day when people have kitchen so is trying to raise money for their projects but also how people are are taking over the institutions that make those project so it works on a number of levels.

It's very play for who's the Entertainer any drawers in the mythology.

What was going on in Holywell at the time Thelma and Louise was being made when all this was coming on never got released because they couldn't the prince in the marketing and promotion to the whole thing can almost employed around him.

Just as he was getting going is there a parallel documentary to be made about what's happening now with a new.

Keira of people wrestling for control of the of the storytellers you mentioned earlier that the Tech has more and more influence over who's making the the biggest parks in terms of the TV and film we'll have to see people will look back.

I'm sure on this with great interest.

I think it's certainly seems to be that this was a period with hugely colourful characters very very wonderful films being made and it sort of reflects.

I think of shift from Hollywood being run by people who were producers to being wrong by investors and the implications of that were David Abraham sounds brilliant.

Thank you so much for coming on the media.

Show that the program The Man Who definitely didn't steal Hollywood is on BBC 2 at 9 p.m.

On Friday in this edition of the media show you may have seen an entertainment journalist has gone fire offer a number of a celebrity interviews and for the fact that she's now received an apology from the Hollywood actor.

The journalist in question is the floor she interviewed and Hathaway as part of a press junket for the 2012 film Les Miserables so this is a while back and just to explain a junk it as a way to promote a film usually where the actors and directors are lined up to do a series of interviews offered in front of a background advertising the film with the journalist brought in one after the other in a long line to do a very short interview usually and hotel so as I said at the top I hate them, but let's have a listen to me and Anne Hathaway this compilation of the most uncomfortable moments the interview resurfaced and went viral last week so the first question and I will try so where there any awkward moments like this on the side.

People with sacrifice more fun than we do today.

Do you remember your first crush now on the floor? Thank you very much for your time.

I know you have seen this a few times, but when you hear it back.

Do you still win strange and the people thinking hold on this happened in 2012 while we talking about it on the media show in 2024? What's the what's the what's the reason? I'm actually in August said an interview with Blake Lively that I did in 2016 and the reason why I posted it Ben was because it was a very uncomfortable interview didn't go well at all and after I posted it went viral also for the reason that Blake Lively was being criticised for her promo tour.

Movie that was just released it ends with us, so that kind of added to the tension around her and then that kind of made me one explain what happened behind the scenes of that into because a lot of people on YouTube for taking my interview and having opinions about and they were all this like weird conspiracy theories around 8 so I have decided that I wanted to go out and explain what happened myself and that's when I started this new videos on YouTube showing things are going great and when things are not going so great and that's what happened with this and Hathaway to you and you've received an apology from Anne Hathaway recently but watching it back.

Did you think maybe I put her in a difficult situation by singing the questions and asking her to sing the answers back.

I reacted to it.

You know you're in this situations and people sit there like you saying 4 hours and do this like 45-minute interview with back to back to back to do appreciate when you try to do something different, but she didn't and I totally respect that she didn't want to take bag but for me it was the tone of everything and I think that's why I wasn't very nice.

I think that you can always say you don't want to answer a question, but you can do it in that you know and not the rest of the interview because if you saw this but the journalist Simon Mills has been following the floor or around your your videos and has written In The Times newspaper Hathaways act of contrition the apology is a huge crossing the floor mo for show business media the content maker and content provider now on a similar billing and demanding equal respect it is the internet that has done this.

So he's saying that this is a big big Mo

How young kids work do you agree? I'm not sure that the thing is what's happening right now which is different from when I did this to use but then you use to get a hard copy or you used to get a card with the interview on now.

They will send you a link to the interview and if there's anything that interview that the studio or promises to someone doesn't like they will pop out before you even received the interview so the censorship is much stronger.

I think this probably won't happen is going to get cancer before it even before the the journalist gets it's just I want to talk to you more wine about restaurants in a minute because I've done a few myself, but just in terms of and have a holiday.

What did she say and how did you receive it? How did you get to you? So contacted me and forward an email from her and he said this is a message from and I appreciate if you don't.

Post this apology so I read it was a long very personal email explaining that she was not in a good place when they seem to be happened and she would appreciate if I kept the email private and then I reply to her and I said it wasn't really appreciate that you reaching out to me and I asked her if it was ok that I publish that she had her own interests as well and she said that yes, she would be happy for me to do that and then into your for next Tuesday I mean I've got colleagues are the BBC who are absolutely brilliant at them and I was talking to one of them today.

You were saying he really thinks about everything.

I had of it including what is going to where he said we didn't really successful interview years ago.

Would you like a robber?

Read that she like knitwear and so he deliberately put on a knitted jumper and felt that was really part of why she warmed him and liked him just how do you prepare for them? Because they're such that they can be a quick I mean for 5-minutes.

I think usually there 5-minutes they say but then they always make sure it's like a turn around 1 minutes or 4 minutes.

Yeah, you know I think they can be very flat and boring and repetitive is interview some always doing a lot of research before and I wanted interviews that wear the same Talent have been talking to other in their lives and I'm trying to make it a personal and does it feel like I've been working for a lot of different TV shows that are more like celebrity based than actually movie Focus I've always had the angle of a little more personal approach and that sometimes it's received well and sometimes I get cough and say you had to talk about the movie.

That I was going to say that I'm not really there to talk about the meeting.

There is a journalist and I'm not because they don't realise that they don't accept that we go there is John that's pretty I come in news.

I'm coming from a new perspective.

I'm not there just to promote a movie and yet quite often outside the pub as those that need it as well.

Don't expect that or accept that as I'm listening to the two of you.

I'm wondering if we see about the fact that some people and they organise junk.

It's essentially reserve the right to not necessarily pass on all of the interview if they don't feel that it's gone that way.

How does it work with the BBC or other other British journalist who said it was suit our own interview so we go and I insist I'm not going to do it that when I'm going to do it my own a different room.

We're going to get around interview and we're in charge of all of that and I would never do anything for minutes because that's not good enough is enough like to be able to get somebody out of somebody in 4 minutes.

24 minutes is too short for what we want.

It's fine, but I'm not saying you do this works the viral clips and that's

Opening times of wanting a longer interview if I'm going along to interview a big film director of the movie star I'm gonna run it on various outlets including some that might want 2530 minutes before you go who's next? What's the next will be rather anything right now and you maybe you know that could happen and you know it's ok.

It's ok for me, but I'm getting a lot of these in the future.

They have changed a lot.

You know it's not happening that much as it used to and but you know I'm happy to interview anyone that's nice and polite so to do with that happens in May please come back on and tell us speaking to us about a range of different interview and experiences many thanks to all of our guests that is our time up.

I'll quickly.

America the US this weekend's ok to you're on your own next week and then I'll be on the media show from Washington DC the week after I will definitely go forward to that that is it for this week.

You can listen back to this show and all the things on BBC sounds that from both of us Goodbye by cafe, Hope on BBC Radio 4 by the time.

I've finished is £150000 burden welcoming you into a virtual coffee shop where I chat to people looking to improve the lives of those around them.

It's about tackling isolation and loneliness engaging station with people let you know can make a massive difference in individuals trying to make the world a better place.