Read this: Investigating abuse in the Church of England, Tyson vs Paul, NYT Games, Leaving X for Bluesky

You are about to listen to a BBC podcast and I'd like to tell you a bit about what goes into making I'm Sardar susesi and assistant commissioner of podcast for BBC sounds.

I pull a leavers to support a diverse range of podcast on all sorts of subjects relationships identity comedy even one that makes poetry music and Inner City Life so one day.

I'll be posted develop their ideas the next back checking a feature and the next looking at how a podcast connect with it's audience and maybe that's you so if you like this podcast from others on BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 now if you play wordle more connections or indeed other brain teasing games were gonna want to hear one of our guests later the executive producer of games of the New York Times will be with us later.

We're going to hear how they set the game.

And how games are crucial to the New York Times business model to talk about the boxing match between Mike Tyson and Jake Paul won, US analyst says it showed us the Creator economy is now more powerful than the old school Media industrial complex that was Evan Shapiro he'll explain what he means and why he sees the fight pivotal moment for the media and even if you don't use eggs or Twitter as it used to be called you may well as seen reports in the last few days that significant numbers of people are switching to an app bluesky there be millions of new signups.

We're going to get into why this matters to the media birthday.

We're going to hear about the reporting that led to the resignation of the Archbishop of Canterbury last week.

We're going first by the Channel 4 news presenter.

Cathy Newman back in 2017 her investigation revealed for the first time the violent abuse of children and young men by the serial abuser.

John Smyth the Channel 4 News team went on to produce a series of exclusive stories about a cover up within the Church of England welcome Cathy to the media show take us back to the beginning if you will how did you first discover the story of John Smyth and actually because someone original source write me a letter and it went the wrong building so I didn't get it for several weeks afterwards and you don't often get a tip-off through the post.

So I can't say it was an urgent priority but I did open the letter of course as soon as I received it and it was just a bit was quite vague, but it was someone haven't seen a report.

I did previously on site Harris who was a British sex offender has gone to offending Kenya and he'd actually ended up getting serious jail time as a result of our investigation then and so this Informant said to me I think you.

Story of got that's not unrelated to your previous reporting shall we meet for coffee so I m coffee in the hilariously media village location of gales in Exmouth market and sat down there this source produced from his bag and envelope and in the envelope was absolutely horrific 1982 secret report known as the rest and Report was done by a Cambridge vicar rev Mark Ruston which detail in horrific terms John Smyth beatings, but we now familiar with but this was completely out of the blue.

I just sat down to coffee.

I'd look down awful.

You know savagery brutality sadistic really and I have a red I got more and more angry and you know my source then said to me well the church new about this in 1982 and covered it up.

Are you interested in the story and

Yes, you knew as soon as he read the documents.

I imagine that you had a story.

How did you then go about standing up the evidence trying to find people to speak to you at the office and we have an amazing investigations team their head at that point by Joe Bracken we pulled in all sorts of freelancers as well Tom stoned in the amazing job try and get in with the victims of this brutality guy bassinet as well.

I mean it was a real team effort.

We then went about getting in touch with the victims and I remember I mean I think we're going to talk in a minute to to one of those Smyths survivors Mark's TV and I remember going to meet him.

I've emailed him and asked if you would have been off the record and we met at the st.

Albans Starbucks on off the M25 and we have that meeting I think the day before Donald Trump was elected so.

86 Leighton 2016 and that was we had a real uphill struggle to be honest because as you can imagine a lot of survivors.

Didn't want to go on camera and you'll know from all your reporting on this though.

There are so many legal hurdles in this story, so we we didn't need people to be comfortable with going on camera so Marks to be that time was one of several breakthroughs.

We had because by the end of the coffee.

We have there in Starbucks he'd agreed to do an interview and we went and film the interview in an extraordinarily powerful interview so that was many twists and Turns along the way but but that was a key breakthrough and I'm interested in how you approached that clearly there are people talking people who don't I know it.

I've done quite a lot of investigations into sensitive subjects with contributors have suffered you no experience deep trauma.

I think back to the Granville time if you like when.

I had a lot of conversations with people very soon after the fire where I felt that I want to just lay out to them some people find it's really cathartic to go into the media it helps them with their recovery but other people find it doesn't help at all.

It makes it worse at we triggers it and I always said to people only you know what is going to be best for you and I would never want to push you into doing something that was best for you that felt honest and obviously decided not to and Viking stories, but it felt like the right thing to do and I wondered if that's how you approach it to yeah absolutely you know everybody we spoke to it was interesting because I say virtually all of the victims we approached.

It was almost like they were expecting I call you know this let's face it this has been covered up for decades since 1982 and we're approaching people at the end of 2016 so to be honest most of the there was an element of relief in finally being able to speak to someone and someone wanting.

But yet as you say I'm in every single one we approach for an Off the Record conversation first author was no way we're going to find bounce people into doing an interview on such a sensitive subject.

So yeah, you are incredibly gently but I did find my nose with Marks Debbie you know Richard Gittins also my colleague Tom Stone went to see him initially you know Andy Moss Who originally spoke off camera to us, but then decided that he did want to do an on-camera interview he the all of them in the decided that they were keen to speak and I think obviously that there's a lot of trauma that we we had two clearly a very sensitive along the way and keep all the survive in the when we were doing things who we heard from how we were approaching the report but I hope I'm right in saying that at the end of it.

I mean they all every single one of them has said to me how you

We did the report and did the investigation and I feel the frustration was the after we did a report in 2017 that you know really nothing changed for them.

Didn't at that point when John Smyth was still alive.

There was the police started investigating which they could do much earlier.

I did start to investigate but unfortunately John's my died and 28 without the victims getting any Justice and the church continued the approach of trying to brush it under the carpet which ultimately that was the approach very much for the Welby interview 10 years not 2019 after my report and it was incorrect assertions to quote the recent making review in the interview which actually have contributed to him resigning in this month after making love you was made public several times Marks TV who was the first?

Fibre to agree to go on camera for your investigation and Mark is joining us on the media show Mark welcome to the programme.

Why did you make the decision to to speak to Kathy and to Channel 4 news on the record reasons for that Angela complexity, but I think the main reason was that I was worried for my friend anymore.

I was really concerned that his story never be told because for me there were two traumas wrapped up in 1976 to 82 the first trauma was the Grooming and the waltz by John Smyth me personally but the second trauma which is harder for me to talk about even then my own assault was seeing my best friend.

Schooldays going into the hospital and seeing him in a dreadful state unrecognisable.

I've been driven there by his father Jeremy Moss who's the inspiration for Inspector Morse I gather you're doing crosswords in this program.

So nice to link for you but Jeremy an I went on this journey to see him and we neither of us could recognise him.

He had bandages and the around his wrists and is completely shaving and he's asked for me and I knew white hair done.

What he had done.

I knew that it was because of Smyths abuses but I couldn't is father and that whole that whole sort of episode is still something that haunts me massively you can probably hear it in my voice.

I find it very hard to keep on telling the story time and time again because every time I tell if I'm reliving something of The Horror of that moment so I was concerned the Andes voice would never be heard and his story would never be told and that we no chance of justice for him so my initial motor and it was very strong was I thought you wouldn't tell his story.

I thought he could tell his story so I thought I would do it on my friends behalf and made that decision and you spoke to Channel 4 News but as you were loaded to after that initial interview the media has come to you and made other request to share your experiences has that felt like a pressure is that felt something like something you felt obliged to do it's not felt like a Prayer

Because I built up a very good relationship with Channel 4 particularly with Cathy so when there is my wife and I met Kathy and Starbucks in 2016 with very quickly trusted her my wife so brilliant judge of character and she basically gave me the green light.

I'm not such a great Georgia character.

Just probably why I use cherries basically said you can trust this woman she's amazing and so I did and I have and I think because of that every time.

He has needed me to tell a story or two giving interview.

I've said yes, it's not felt like a pressure to do that because of the existing relationship of trust been built up over the years but obviously in the telling of the story you find yourself unexpectedly emotional and so when Kathy

Interviewed me the first time back in 2017 February the run-up to February when she broke the story and I had to pause during filming because when I talk about Andy's suicide attempt on completely against all kind of anticipation of my past.

I just I lost it and had to recover and Cathy was really good and so was the camera person that came with her it would just brilliant and managing that and so I thought that I can trust Channel 4 and a roley found working with Cathy to be a very very constructive experience.

Sorry if I could just cause it's so kind of you to say that because you know we we do put a lot of effort into these kind of stories, but it's just the most rewarding thing has been winning your trust.

Henry mattress don't actually now to see finally the victims being listened to and you know some action being taken feels like an incredible thing and cut you use the word finally and Mark if I could bring you back in did you experience any frustration having taken the the big and trusting staff of giving an interview to the into Channel 4 News did you feel any frustration about what followed or didn't frustration with the media? I've said all along to my friends into my family and especially a religious faith that I'm still in touch with who tend to have a kind of somewhat.

Fundamentalist pavlovian reflex against the media.

They actually have all the institutions and organisations that I've dealt with since 2017 the media has been the most past or which is really bizarre.

Should be a pastoral organisation past the mean shepherd and people are all day into a shepherd ministry, and yeah, I have found Tom phone Cathy the people that have always visited me or I'm interacted with on channel 42 in Farmoor pastoral and caring than any of the other organisations and so yeah, it's been it's been in that sense.

It's being a frustration to see and a grave disappointment for me as what I call a recovering vicar.

I used to be a vicar for 22 years.

I'm now recovering from that experience as well, but I was very disappointing 27th the lack of response the kind of conspiracy of Silence from the church and I was also disappointed that the judicial process.

Was not expedited after kathy's story was broken because I expected smile to be extradited brought home interviewed at the very least I was a trial and have some sort of legal closure two are now.

It's a pillow that hasn't happened and so that that's been frustrating you well that we appreciate you sharing your experiences with us on the media.

So thank you very much for your time today and let me bring you back.

Are we going to hear in a minute the moment you can frontage on smile but at what point did you guys you had enough material to do that it was early New Year in 2017 so by this point.

We've been working on this since start of autumn September 2016.

So you know we had several months have really bringing everything.

We had a bit the whole team working on it and yeah.

I'm we went to doorstep then we discovered.

Joe Bracken who's originally from South Africa and obviously that's where John Smyth was living in the last years of his life.

He found out from a journalist in South Africa that John Smyth was going to be back in the UK opportunity to them going Dorset pin, and I got to say we didn't expect him to say a word to us, so we start it to sort of stakeout where we knew he was going to get the coffees in and then cake and coffee and cake seems to be a bit of a running theme of this investigation can't buy that but anyway just gone to get them in the car and suddenly got the emerging from the flat so we can a chocolate coffee and cake up in the air and and obviously went to run off to try and doorstep him up, because I have a listen to that.

This is my cat in human from Channel 4 news with told that you beat young man until they blood why did you do that?

I'm not talking about Dad what did you do it?

Who won Britain told us that you drove into attempt suicide? Do you have any regrets for that? I'm not talking about this.

Turn the victims deserve to hear why you did it how did you know I was here take the victims deserve to know why you did I'm not talking about what we did at all that was John Smyth talking to you when your doorstep Tim fast forward to well last week and the Archbishop of Canterbury resigned as resource even first revealed.

Will you shocked by his resignation alluded to we were all slightly frustrated that everything seemed to move very slowly after that you know that was an opportunity for John Smith's be brought to Justice and you know that is I feel very sad that never happen.

If you're very sad for the survivors, but it never happened in 2019 with the Archbishop of Canterbury and he was quite adamant.

They had no suspicions at all was the quote about John Smyth and we now know to quote.

He's making hoover church brought into in.

Ok after my reports.

You know that that was incorrect that he had no suspicious at all and fast forward as he say to an interview I did with the Archbishop after the making report was published report.

I was I read it.

You know I found it absolutely jaw-dropping.

I knew it was going to be serious for Justin Welby I didn't think when I am prepared incredible incredible rigorously but I suppose I thought was possible that he might announced his resignation in the interview because you know he speaks from the heart and I thought it was possible that you might do that, but I thought most likely he wouldn't and he's you know he would refuse to go and which other interviewing a few weeks ago.

You did say I'm not resigning for this and that angle of the victims who then we doubled their calls for him to quit so when he actually did go.

Such a pressure building not just from the survivors, but also an interview BBC did with the bishop of Newcastle calling him to resign.

I think it just felt then but there was such a momentum, but it was impossible for him to stay so yeah, I was I was surprised that it comes that given how many years the church had covered up this candle is surprised that in the end the most senior person in the church did take responsibility and waiting for that.

Thank you very much for coming on the media.

We really appreciate it was a joint by the BBC investigative journalist Colin Campbell and Colin you spent the 2010s reporting on abuse within the Church of England including the churches cover-up of the convicted sex offender Bishop Peter ball ball with in 2015 and the former Archbishop of Canterbury George Carey resign doesn't Henry Bishop after independent enquiries criticises Handling of the case and Colin reporting was praised by a lawyer.

Painting survivors of being instrumental in exposing the sea of Thieves cover up culture, thank you for joining us in the media show studio I wonder what your memories are beginning work on these occasions.

I was a newbie to it.

So I was home affairs correspondent.

I was working in the regions.

I went to a court case and it was a riffic court case about a young man who heard killed a vicar called on Facebook you dismembered him.

I covered that story and then it transpires that this young man was abused by the vicar after that I started investigating the safeguarding failings in there and then I got a call from Anne call Phil Johnson and the next day.

He turned up in in my office with a box full of files.

He was sweating you look scruffy and I thought you looked a bit crazy, but he then told me that I should investigate safeguarding failings in the diocese of Chichester that's the Church of England in Sussex because there was a paedophile ring that.

Seen by a bishop colour long story short pretty much all that came true, but it took a long time to get to that and what obstacles did you encounter in trying to get to that a lot of obstacles? I was in the trenches.

It was a battle it was a battle against the church.

Yeah, they didn't want to give up the information.

I was being given brown envelopes.

I have people working in the church.

I had a team of everyday.

I did a story and you survival would come forward give me information and piecing together a massive jigsaw puzzle trying to work out who knew what and when and that Keith because if you can find out the dates when a bishop new for instance that that somebody had a conviction and when I was finding was all this information was not ending up in the files files were being filleted within the Church of England and it was down to me and Phil Johnson to try to get to the truth.

Did you have a sense the church was very aware of you personally and was very much invested in in preventing you making for.

Absolutely, I think behind the scenes they would terrified because they knew that I was onto something that was in the early stages because I worked on this phone for 10 years and it took me 10 years to get the story to a position.

Where are all of the truth started to come out and that was followed by independent church enquiries which provided miss information that we had to drill into and there was this information with the moments in those 10 years where you thought I don't know if I'm going to get this over the line.

I was lucky enough to have an driven editor at the time in you exactly what I was doing we didn't come up with any massive big bang stories.

It was slow drip drip of a story pretty much every week every other some longer-term investigations and you were reporting for BBC South East today, but your stories weren't getting picked up by the national Media is that right not always but as I said some of them weren't big.

Stories that would naturally end up on the national headlines there were some national newspapers though that really did show interest the times and the Guardian both will picking up the stories and the Daily Mail pick up stories that you can I ask Colin the impact on you because these stories are very upsetting and we have course you know this isn't the first person to worry about because they're people have gone to travel experiences, but what you know why I really hate to admit it and I I don't like saying it in front of survivors, and I know there are many listening, but you know I have absorbed vicarious trauma.

It's kind of obvious over the space of 10 years speaking to schools of survivors dealing with her horrific subject and her cafe Maggie anger anger.

I felt constant anger for 10-years anger at the way the church dealt with the survivors in not providing them support, but seemingly providing the Vickers

Paedophile priest support and I suppose I first realised that I had an issue.

I would be watching EastEnders for instance and I'd feel a tear come down my face or being my car not feel extreme that was the realisation that that was this trauma that I'd taken on manifesting itself so I realised after 10 years I had to pull back and I was kind of angry because I wanted to carry on but I realise that I done everything I could possibly do to help the survivors that I spoke to and that was the most important things really about my investigations are about exposing safeguarding was a mistake.

I was never speaking to see the Archbishop of Canterbury resign.

I was never trying to embarrass Bishops I just wanted to make the church a safer place and suppose give survivors of voice and one of the things.

I was really struck by what Cathy said was when she said she'd they knocked on doors and people were expecting your call.

I've had that I did a story Panorama about.

Abuse the army cadets and we had the same producer knocking doors and people say we thanks babe.

Been expecting somebody to come and ask us about this for 30 years or 40 years.

It's they've been waiting for it.

I wondered whether you have ever experienced.

I've had milk and it's similar experiences.

I've had different experiences to where I would do a regional report it will be on local TV I put the face of the abuser on the TV and the next day.

I have a phone call with somebody shouting and screaming down the phone at me saying you've put his face on TV you open up a can of worms like you can't imagine and by seeing your face on TV you for sorting that that survivor to confront what happened to them but since then that particular person.

I've become friends with him was invited to a 50th birthday and so you know the temperature with actually what you're doing is good.

Did the church change in their approach to you across the 10 years or was it the same on the last day as it was on the 1st so quick store.

When I first started I received an email from somebody and it said we need to choke Colin Campbell off with sufficient information that gave me a very quick idea.

How they were going to be deal and yes they soften that you didn't mean to send that to you know that was accidentally sent to me.

It was meant for another Colin within the church it came to me and I realised very quickly but over the years their approach to me softened and I was getting information, but that was only down to the fact that I had people on the inside like Cathy said I have people delivering brown envelopes and and information that gave me a very good understand.

What was going on.

Thank you so much calling camal thanks for coming on the program.

Also thanks huge.

Thanks to Cathy Newman and Mark's TV and there's more information on the stories that we've been considering in the last half an hour both on the Channel 4 website and on the BBC News website now on Friday as some of you listening may well have noted Mike Tyson former heavyweight boxing.

And 58 years old thought the YouTuber Jake Paul who's 27 the fight was funded and broadcast by Netflix it cost in tens of millions of dollars and reached 60 million households, globally according to them.

This is Jake Paul vs.

Mike Tyson whatever you think of the Sporting merits of this fight.

It was undoubtedly a moment for the media one that showed how much has changed in terms of coverage of Sport in terms of the future of TV and where the power in the media lies before we go any further we should remind ourselves of Hell Jake Paul came to be in the middle of this Media moment while it's a huge character and digital me do the YouTuber has over 20 million.

Post videos on a range of subjects has done for years those of you have followed him from the early days.

He first got a public profile really through the app Vine now many of you may not remember it Katie I do actually very short video 6 seconds was the limit I can remember trying to cover use a 6 seconds.

I don't think it was a huge success to be honest, but Jake Paul made a big success of buying the ended up with a huge audience vine close, but Jake Paul continued posting particularly on YouTube to Grace says she's also an actor example.

He was in a Disney Channel series in the 2010s and now remarkably in recent years.

He's made himself one of the world's highest paid athletes through a series of boxing tapped into this last online reach that he has an after the song generated in this fight against Tyson we can definitely expect more fights from him and a couple of days ago you was.

A post about all this but you've seen on LinkedIn about this fight in terms of the media call Devon Shapiro some of you listening me know him he in no uncertain terms on LinkedIn was saying this represented something bigger than the event itself so I got in touch with him in his argument if I can put it simply is the the US election first of all highlighted how the mainstream news media influence Has Fallen something that we discussed last week on the media show his following argument with this Jake Paul fight is also about the mainstream Media becoming less Central to me Jake Paul a YouTuber who is famous only for being famous on YouTube right and his entire life has been spent being famous on YouTube paid 40 million dance around ring and do absolutely nothing in a fight so many people to this mainstream television network that it broke the network.

Joe Rogan breaking the election on podcasting in on YouTube massive audience on YouTube and then Days Later Jake Paul breaks popular culture and then reverts back to his Homebase which is YouTube and what's demonstrated between those two ends of the Continuum is the the mainstream Media no longer is the Cultural relevance the Sun Centre cultural relevance is the creator of the Jake Paul's the Mr beast's the Emma Chamberlain's the Taylor Swift the Cristiano Ronaldo's when you look at the number of people who looked at this fight shortly by most measures that say Media success story the reason why so many people showed up was not Netflix nor Mike Tyson but mostly Jake Paul who is a massive internet personality for good or bad and depending on how you look at it and his audience showed up to

Then I don't think we're terribly pleased with the service or the entertainment value of the fight it set off and what's going to happen as they're going to revert back to YouTube channel where they're all gonna commiserate and complain about what happened so ultimately I think you're right.

It was a success story in that I hold onto people showed up people shut up and unhappy is that truly a successful? I think ultimately take Netflix to task for a lot of different things.

I think they will succeed the biggest and most successful television channel on the world but at the end of the day being a television channel was ultimate going to be the best business in the world.

I'm very interested in how you are driving Netflix you describe the old school Media industrial complex which might be interesting for some of our listeners, who's seen Netflix as the new arrival on the scene vs.

Some of the Legacy

Channels which they have a more long-term relationship with Brian and then streaming killed cable and this is mostly in American interview we are now in the era.

We're all streaming mainstream streaming is being and water we lose sharer voice by The Creator economy, and so yes Netflix in their contact is part of the Old Guard and there are struggling and the only one who is profitable.is.

They are the the most innovative of all of the Old Guard at television, but Mark my words.

They are the Old Guard at television acting like it there their programming more more like that on a daily basis.

They are now desperately trying to get into the advertising game and so suddenly they went from being.

On demand ad-free, you know innovative television streaming video products to be basically just the TV channel and open it legal to be good for them for awhile by ASDA the Jake Paul have it all demonstrates.

There is a massive shift happening towards the Creator economy.

We have you look at Netflix in your market alone in the UK is flat for 3 years for 3 years and going down with younger consumers, OK well.

That was Evan Shapiro talking to earlier.

I'm delighted to bring in Oliver Brown sporty sports writer at the Daily Telegraph who's here there's a lot to unpack repair.

I think I better start with you as she sportswriter.

What was your take on this match had any intrinsic sporting whatsoever really coming this was a and occasion which was.

12 Rounds 2 8 from 3-minute Rounds 2 to 27 year old fighting a 58 year-old.

I think some people caricatures does elder abuse and it was kind of ghoulish fascination which I thought I do feel do an awful lot of people in and so as a as a purist and there's somebody who loves Sports on its own terms.

I found it all pretty sorted that you were getting your level.

Don't like boxing but it was getting a sports seen by millions of people wrong with that was quite instructive Eddie hearn's reaction I mean Eddie Hearn one of the promoters who was promoting Katie Taylor at the beforehand stars himself as a real hustler for promote anything and even he who was in Dallas in the stadium wasn't watching the fight because he said that he wanted to preserve the memory of Mike Tyson as he was.

Destructive best of the 80s and 90s and not this terribly diminished rather sad figure take on the streamers like Netflix moving into sport the fascinating development oversee you have you have Amazon getting heavily involved as well and I think Netflix are going to be showing some NFL football matches around Christmas time yeah, it's the is the rise of the influencer and Netflix clearly riding in on the back of that and it's something that we can't ignore I agree with a lot of the points that they ever made there.

I mean that the numbers the shear numbers of people tune into these things I mean I I have never heard of KSI and Logan Paul first came onto the scene a few years in the last few days Noah lyles the Olympic 100m champion has been racing somebody.

33 million subscribers on YouTube and apparently that did Hughes numbers as well, so we're not arguing are we that this is anything other than an extra is not a rival to what you might say as the more professional side of boxing for example wonder if it might cannibalise even that side of things to how many days will be interesting in December when Tyson Fury fight Alexandria sick again in December that is about as good as possibly made in the heavyweight division of the figures measure up against Mike Tyson Jake Paul a separate boxing story which is at the boxing magazine the ring is being sold to Saudi buyers, but you aren't boxing fans.

Just explained that the ring isn't a regular magazine.

This is a magazine that has a particular place in the sport is it's a magazine that actually.

Stoves championship belts is a revered part of the boxing landscape and it's been it's fallen someone on hard time to doesn't even have a print products as it stands at the moment, but it's been revised by the Saudis but is it still a journalistic Enterprise which you would respect that stands for something within the sport not particularly given.

What's happen now because it's got the backing of Turkey she can who is the member of the Saudi behind this complete annexation of boxing by the Saudis and he tweet few days ago from the ring magazine with fully independent and then I did that statement is just visible running given.

Where is Saudi Arabia stands on the world press freedom index to think that you could write a critical piece about his involvement in the ring magazine is just fanciful that feels like it's part of a broader media trend when creating sporting content will also have some degree of control or influence over the media that.

Sporting become one in the same almost something that happened to me a couple of months ago at Wembley Stadium I wrote something crystal Wembley being part of Riyadh season for the NCT Joshua fight the tail dprc didn't like it and low and behold my accreditation was withdrawn and say that that side of things does worry me and with a with a ring magazine case I mean are you going to get ring magazine only giving championship bills to two people who are two boxes are involved with a child is having a possibility will have to see on by the way the event at Wembley Eddie Hearn one of the Privett Road of that event said the time that the Telegraph had other journalists at the event and accreditation wasn't something the Saudi organisers were involved in one last question for you.

Whether you like it or not.

Presumably you accept that this type of crossover between sport and entertainment and media is not going anywhere.

No, I think it's very much here to stay in its proliferating everywhere you see and never mentioned Cristiano Ronaldo I mean what's 600 million Instagram followers.

He has influences following in the stand the major tournaments.

I think you're going to see it in every conceivable scored.

Thanks for coming.

I really appreciate it was over Brown chief sports writer at the Daily Telegraph in what must be a media show first I'm gonna give you a puzzle to solve during our next item.

We're about to talk about how games are Becoming Part of some Media organisations business model and part of that and the UK market at least I'll cross so we did that in mind how you go, this is a cryptic clue for you to ponder over the next few minutes has been set by one of our next guests John halpern.

You set lots of very well known crossword, so if you're ready the answer 4 letters and it sounds quite pertinent to our program actually the Cluedo is reports from all corners of the Globe 4-letters the clue is reports from all.

The globe and I should declare I'm terrible at any form of crossword particularly cryptic Crossword so I'm not going to be in contention to get there and I don't think it's bad as me, but we will give you the answer after we talk about we don't have it which we don't get to talk about puzzles and how important they can be for Media businesses and Zoe bell is executive producer of games at the New York Times famously the site for word connections spelling bee and many more very welcome to the media have to come up with these ideas for games.

I heard I've heard you want a game jam.

We run a Hall Green Light process on our game development and we try to start with the widest panel possible and one of the things we do to get as many ideas into the top of that funnel is we run again damn once a year for you take 2 days and everybody in the team pictures ideas of new games that we might want to make we try to find a little bit prompts.

Business appropriate games but sometimes we get crazy Games 2 and it's really fun and that's really the first step in the process and design and develop prototypes and eventually beta test so what sort of wonderful and weird ideas.

Do you get then one of the things with you off and get some audio game yet you be at had a actually implement where maybe your rearranging little snippets of music into a complete song United ago and that's when we get a fair amount and then we go and visual puzzles, but sometimes evolved you know it's just is it sounds really fun have to say but how do you say you get these ideas and brainstorm? How do you then develop and test the game so I think you're in the final round now of testing in New York

X game called Zeus or is that how you pronounce it? Maybe not yes, it's a phrase match up and you have to guess what is that right now actually in Canada similar market to the US market to the overall global market and so we and it smaller and so we don't want to test a baby game in such a large market this time so we do we work out and I'm designing and refining after we have a concept game design documents and then we haven't texted him and I know that the prototype and start playing it was really nice and we just testing I'm just kind of with fibre stick people.

Side of the company and then and then we are out this fun and we are currently two other and we start looking at what we're doing now.

You people come back to the game is it fun and they will come back to you today, so it's Rosa rugosa the process that you're describing is a very very keen interest of the people at the top of the New York Times puzzles and games are really important part of the New York Times is subscription strategy.

Just explain the role that games playing their products of the New York Times we have our games we have our newsquest and then we have pudding and wirecutter the athletic so we have lots and lots of different products that you can subscribed subscribed again or just subscribed to cooking but you get a lot more about your back if you subscribe to the bundle of products and then you can use all of them and what we

Is that if you subscribe to you no games and use and you use both of those your much more likely to retain and if you just subscribed to one of them so really games just hope you know all of the engagement with and in terms of your overall popularity is the New York Times as It Gets games destination.

How crucial is wordle which you bought in 2022 which lots of people listening to this in the UK will play How central is that too everything is in it.

It's a big game.

It's our biggest game it brings in a huge an international audience and because it's only five letter word crossword clue American centre, so what does bring it bigger international audience it brings in a bowl of all Generations which is great you know you've got 10-year olds playing with their 9-year-old grandparents in the same tax change my children do it with their great grandmother.

This week, can you talk a bit later about x and blue sky and actually posted on blue sky earlier saying that Zoe was going to be coming on to talk about the New York Times dead and one person reply say make sure she took we asked her about us know this is something you want to get into 2 is that right.

I feel quite strongly about this chance to put it direct to the head of games at the New York Times of dark dark days, and I learn in the wrong spellings right of reply.

So what do you say to people listening in the UK who were frustrated with American spellings on on wordle?

She's great.

She picks the words every week.

She spends a couple of hours thinking about the the what where is there going to be in today and how the pattern goes throughout the week.

We have got in this be back before I definitely aware of it, but we also have to pick the weird so hopefully you'll have three the same week ok.

Well.

It's not just in the US where puzzles have been important for the media think of the Joker in the times and of course the crosswords that feature broadsheets, so let's bring in our crossword setter John halpern, and don't forget about his clue.

We said it earlier.

It's four letters.

It's reports from all corners of the Globe keep thinking about that one listens to because John sets cost crosswords for the Guardian the telly of the times and the Independent John how did you first get into crossword setting?

Love puns and jokes round table and both my mum and dad did cryptic Crossword and I have no idea what they were and I actually one day.

I looked at the finish times crossword on on the kitchen table and learnt all the answers and went and bought another copy of the times and then went to a football match in the afternoon listen and still the north stand and 5-minutes bowl kick-off.

I pulled out the times crossword and finished it and because I've learnt all the answers started something and starts to fall in love with wordplay, and how this how this works later on later on some music while I was there.

I kind of wish getting more interested in in in in words but also I just had a couple of trousers in the family my father died and my brother.

Unfortunately lost in the car accident and and I was getting more and more into puzzles and puzzle setters have pseudonyms and I thought I just want to be one of those and it occurred to me to call myself Paul in the Guardian really really hard and I'm really really until I get to mention his name right now long time ago, but I get to mention his name is really lovely guy and every time I get published in the Guardian think we will now we will think of him now to thank you are creating a crossword.

How do you select the words in first of all it said was that a fun actually every time I meet someone I'm kind of looking at their names and seeing if I can and things like that case you up you obviously it's like and I take.

Name a hard I think I know exactly how it however Ros Atkins seems to be quite nice and G on it and I thought to myself actually understand is your DJ and I thought that I'd probably got a nice DJ name for you.

So I think I'm an anagram of your name DJ snake in austral is quite nice and I'll see if I can get that on the players were naughty tonsils over to the answer because we've been given this clue truths to know because let me just remind people what they clearly was which was reports from all corners of the Globe four letters, what's the answer because I have no idea embarrassed so all four of the four corners of the Globe might be north and east west w.

South S news, you know what I thought I bet it's north east south west nesw what is the story of my life on a central part of the ft.

I'm really terrible at cryptic Crossword I just do not understand.

How they were and I just don't get it, but I mean people are really into them though, and I'm not desperate to find ways to connect with a reader on a somewhat deeper level make them a part of their everyday life, so they're all looking for ways to really two people through puzzles.

I think will it go to your hair actually talk about something else because we want to look just before we end at The Platform of platforms be making the news this week.

It's called Blue Sky was set up by jackdaw.

In 2019 he is the man behind Twitter originally and blue skies being seen as an alternative to Elon musk's x and this is part of a long-term trend right since Elon Musk has taken over x some people's new improved in other people's for you.

Not improved and in fact change quite markedly and battery on my said he wanted to change ex and he has that's not to everyone's taste over last couple of years in a lot of people than the median looking for somewhere to go that might offer an alternative experience.

You've got threads which is like a sister after Instagram blue skies actually been around for several years the number of people on it has been relatively small compared with the big platforms we discuss a lot on the media show but in the last couple of weeks and of course this is Katie this is connected to the US election there appears to have been a point where a lot of people have said because of the way that must use x in a political way and use his platform to support Donald Trump perhaps.

They wanted to go elsewhere and

Market shift now there's been a massive shift in the past few weeks.

I think the CEO was saying that they're adding about a million you use as a week at the moment.

I mean it's even be more rapid than that so I'm on it.

Yeah, I gave up with ex a long time ago because you know for me social media was supposed to be a bit of fun and it's supposed to be informative and a certain point in the summer of 2023.

I just thought I'm getting neither of these things anymore from x so it's just it's just not for me.

So you had 100000 followers on exciting yeah, and he spoke to 40.

Yeah and like it was didn't hurt if that's worrying people then I suggest you give it a go is there a risk that this story which has been covered by extensively.

They're up taking in users on blue skies being overstated because at the moment.

It has an estimated 20 million accounts which is of course the number but then we don't have confirm numbers for ex.

We think it's in the hundreds of millions and so

Still x is very much a big beast compared with blue sky no absolutely latex is much much bigger but again it it's it's what you're there for right if you are there of fun and if you're there to telescope information out of the internet then you got to decide where to do that you know it's it's a somewhat different equation for news organisations as such because they need and want too many people as they possibly can but for individuals.

It's a different version of think the Guardian made a smash by saying it wasn't going to be posting on ex anymore and it's on blue sky as well as other platforms 20-ft have turned all discussions about which of this plethora of options you use because I know on a personal basis.

You know I'm posting on LinkedIn on Instagram on threads on Facebook sometimes on Exxon blue.

You know quite a few options argue too many for individual journalists or Media professionals or organisations.

Yeah, you're doing a lot of posting their need to get out more.

Streamline your life a little bit different times has been on blue sky flash quite a long time since the summer of 2023.

I think there is a really good arguments to the extent that x has quite a lot of misinformation and disinformation.

It is worth some reliable news organisation staying on board, but it's up to them, but isn't there another ass bolt for the media at least which is the Twitter was about building networks off and of networks to help the media make things and that you feel that has been lost or can be replicated elsewhere easily for me.

It's definitely starting to be replicated on blue skies, so when I got there.

It was tumbleweed.

You know it was really crickets out there was doing and there's nothing coming back does banter that kind of back and forth as chat about the news in that kind of what I'm there for it's it's unless if I can look like I'm working when actually I'm just talking about online Elon Musk might say wow.

This is just a certain type of me.

National talking to themselves while the real world is on X or elsewhere ech0chamber argument, but my view on this is all media is an echo chamber.

You choose paper to read you choose what television to watch what podcast to listen to they're all broadly aligned with your worldview write.

Everything is an echo chamber.

So just pick your echo chamber.

I don't see what difference it makes.

Thank you very much.

That's Katie Martin ft.

You can find on the a website on blue sky and other platforms may be too and just before we go.

I want to say to talk about the interviews we did earlier.

We just want to save anyone affected by any of the issues discussed in our interview around John Smyth and the Church of England behaviour you can find information and support on the BBC Action Line website but this edition of the media show many thanks to Katie from the Financial Times thanks to all of our guests have joined us across the hour and Katie and I often say at the end of our program if you ever want to.

280 to previous Editions they're all available on BBC sounds, that's it for now.

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