Read this: The end-of-life influencer, Christmas adverts, Mishal Husain leaves the BBC

On A Winter's night in 1974 a crime to place that would have c'est the nation extraordinary news story the story of an aristocrat Lord Lucan kill the family nanny miss taking her for his wife then somehow just disappeared one of the great mysteries in English criminal history stories of my lifetime BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this afternoon is leaving the BBC and going to Bloomberg we'll talk about all that in a moment to Paul Webster the outgoing editor of The Observer as the battle of the proposed sale of the paper continues and you may remember the Feud between Drake and Kendrick Lamar last year 2 of the big.

Artists in the world now a lawsuit filed by Drake makes accusations about how the media is used to promote certain tracks over others are also going to learn about the approach to the media taken by the two sides of the assisted dying debate which goes to a vote in The Commons later this week at 1 this afternoon.

I got an email from the BBC press office can feel the Michelle was leaving the BBC minutes later blumberg, put out a press release saying that she was joining to launch a new global Interview series 4 Bloomberg weekend edition sitting next to each other in The Newsroom when this came through and it wasn't completely out of the blue.

Will it wasn't because there was a report in the papers only I think last week on Friday in the time escape by Alex father father.

We're going to have him in a minute which said that Michelle Hussain was going to be leaving the Today programme sooner rather than later, but it wasn't confirmed at that point that should be leaving the BBC

That is what's happening after 11 years on the day programme 26 years at the BBC in this is an important moment of course Michelle saying is one of the faces and voices of the BBC Today programme presents some of the highest spell TV bulletin she hosted the election debate in the summer and Katie were mentioning Alex father from the time that bring you in Alex thank you very much indeed for your time.

Tell us about the Scoop that you last Friday you got towards the story of not the entire story that's right.

So it's a story that I've been following the sometime over the summer Michelle had made some comments the Sunday Times in which year did alluded to the fact that she was thinking about what might come next to her when her time on the Today programme came to an end and really a head of that and as a result of that.

I have been looking into how long you have left on the programme fundamentally and I got to a position where it was clear that.

Getting to the sharp end of those conversations and Andy as you point out on a story that set out the expectation that she was going to be stepping down from the Today programme had some noises that she was concerned that she well be leaving the BBC wholesale I was also aware that there was a lot of work underway to try and get her to stay and so wasn't confident enough to run a story.

I know you're not going to reveal your sources, but when I read your story on Friday it reminded me that one of the key decisions the BBC's taking is who's going to replace huw Edwards on the flagship 10 and since that scandal the bees have been thinking about what it wants to do about the high-profile Evening News Bulletin Michelle Hussain as presented it.

She would have been considered a contender and

If I'm honest, I mean it could have been read as a throwing down The Gauntlet of sort this out and you said talk to underwear at that point to find a new role for my shower.

Just a few years few days later.

We find out that she's leaving.

Yeah, that's right.

I mean you know Michelle has presented The flagship bulletin of the 6 and the 10 she's been a number of individual has done so I mean it feels really is as it's Clive myrie, has been the defaqto and a default replacement following Hughes resignation and have been underway for some time which doesn't necessarily and 18 months or so, I understand potentially with Tim Davie BBC director-general involved as well well in safaris them being able to find a place From a Shell which has you know upset some star because I think she is very very highly charged within the corporation and I've had lots of messages this afternoon from from people within the BBC Who consider her departure to be quite a lost.

Lyrics I'm interested.

Who do they blame for that laws? Well, you know I think there is a said they would have liked greater effort to have been put into attempting to keep Michelle to stay now.

We don't know the kind of offers that were made and what was put on the table for her ultimately she obviously decided that whatever being off the white right for her.

There is the issue after such a prominent show ASDA Today programme as to where do you go next she died for 10-years more than 10 years which is a long time previous hosts of the Today programme presenters have gone onto 2 Newsnight into the world at One or like Martha Kearney we just heard back from step back a little bit from day-to-day muse and while you know Michelle has done a bit of TV work.

She hasn't necessarily one could argue been offered you know the general election.

She maybe could have done.

Building replaced Andrew Marr on a Sunday morning, you know she could have done in first choice for the leaders debates, so there is some question marks as to whether perhaps she could have been offered a higher profile opportunities that may well have existed something argue Alex thank you in case I'm listening to Alex I'm thinking about the broader strategic situation that BBC recently there were cuts announced also we know there's a shift in emphasis away from programs towards digital in the middle of this is very high profile presenters.

Who's still have these very important connections with millions of people and also paid an awful lot of money and I suppose I don't think I don't imagine that the decisions taken here for the BBC Spectre about money and if Alex is right Michelle Hussain we don't know why she chose to leave and we don't know what she was offered, but it looks as if perhaps.

He was offering something that she

There is this question as well isn't there about the plants that need to be made the BBC News BBC News in the process of making these big cats looking to say a huge amount of money and I know I don't know where that Alex the next thing he'll be writing as you know the questions about the replacement for Michelle obviously but also you know.

What are the big question does the day programme need another presenter or do you move somebody in he's already paid a lot of money.

So you can close their post somewhere else and and thereby save some money cos the BBC is certainly looking to make some cats is highest profile highest paid presenters in the lock-up in over the recent period huw Edwards Zoe Ball Gary Lineker a variety of reasons Michelle I think she was paid up £250000.

Are there about last year so look there may well be some savings to be made there, but I don't think they will be seeing that as a win because she is such a great a great Talent

In terms of replacements you know there is a Katya Adler is the Europeans European editor understand that she's been lined up to fill in From a Shell while she was away.

Rachel Burden is another name this potentially been mentioned and a new start a start-up for my TV is another person that people have been talking about a potential candidate as lots of people or agents.

There was one of the people talk about it, or is it just the agents Roman Reigns around would like to do it and it does need to be it will be a woman because I think following the departure of Martha Kearney who was replaced by Emma Barnett she joined the Tree of men and Roger Robinson Justin Webb they do need to have another presenter because I don't think that those that for that Corby before can carry.

What is a very intense show so they will be looking to.

Set my alarm for Saturday miss her voice on the radio.

I I very much enjoy listening to myself a sign on the Today programme vagina.

Is that Alex and you can read Alex is reporting on this issue and lots of other media issues on the Times website now on Friday as I'm sure many of you listening or no MPs vote Peking letters private members bill on assisted dying if it becomes the bill would give some terminally ill people in England and Wales the right to die at a time of their choosing and listening will know this is kicked off a national conversation and both sides are looking to use the media to shake that conversation let's understand.

How and hear how the media is going about reporting the story Eastham who social and religious affairs editor at the Telegraph welcome to the media show Janet just first of all.

How do you approach report?

On an issue like this which really is an issue of conscience in the end.

I'm going to have to say it's not dissimilar to High with a brooch pretty much any other you know quite complicated.

You've I didn't know anything about this really when I was asked to start looking into it about a month ago now and you just you could have contact everyone who is an expert in the field you often start off with campaigners because they're the ones who are most available to you and you start to ask people what their concerns are so I know the MPs is a very it's quite extraordinary right because it is a 3rd is it an issue of conscience, but as a journalist everything requires us to kind of his own moral compass in to find out what's right? So it's not too dissimilar to other kinds of reporting ready and does the Telegraph as a

As an entity does it take a stance on this and has that influence your position of so yeah? I think it has taken a stance on it.

I know that we wrote a leader piece about a week or so ago.

Maybe a little more than that essentially saving.the this kind of a chain shouldn't really be rushed and I know that obviously we have lots of it is somebody I think that you know our concerns are the concerns of uniform a High Court judges and coronets raised raised alarm about this and you have that in the back of your mind when you're reporting yeah for sure because you know if you have people who are so I would have no more crimes, but I haven't and I have mine because it is how I feel as well because I think you know your job as a done this is fine.

What the problem is able to make public the things that aren't necessarily public to be given with and about looking for case studies for example jealous that we always need a studies people who can type of iron one story the wider issue.

What are the challenges around assisted dying of finding those kind of people for you.

If you haven't really included I suppose what I would call a case study in my covered so far partly because we don't have his diet and UK right now.

So there aren't necessarily you know for the family that you could speak to you on that families who was saying we like to have it my father whoever went through the most snow sure and those are also quite easily available when you contact.

Dying they are really ready in a kind of contact with families pain group that you've been reporting on and and you been particularly reporting.

I think all their work with soaps.

What did you find that? Yeah, so basically the leading campaign with the fishing for legalising assisted dying in the UK and what they campaign for quite important is what Kim Leadbeater is Bill do so it's that particular quite restricted bill for the terminally ill by 6 months left the lyrics and with her so irrelevant.

I was going through the annual accounts to see whether I could see where their money was coming from and I couldn't but I did I did see that every year there was.

Going and things like consultancy work provided to Emmerdale Coronation Street and casualty and I not getting my mind as being an interesting fact is that common? I mean you're obviously hear about all sorts of campaign groups influencing in influencing.

So did you have any concerns around transparency? Yeah? I thought that it didn't look yes.

I should have gone to sleep because when I went back and watch the programs.

I didn't know there was that partnership and dignity in dying.

They do have on their website don't know if it's all of them, but it's some cases press releases with the work done with soaps.

You know looking at scripts.

You know providing case studies etc, but on the app for the viewers of the TV

It wouldn't be wouldn't be closed today.

Thanks very much indeed.

We asked dignity for dying for a statement at the program it fighting they sent us a statement which we have more than half a ml bottles and Poland consistently shows an overwhelming majority of people in Britain support the change.

We are campaigning for like many organisations working on important health and social issues.

We are sometimes asked by television producers connecting with people who have first-hand experience of the issue.

They are researching Janet stay with us if you can get here in the Studio with me and Katie are Paul is Paul Webster former editor of The Observer the down very recently Paul we're going to talk a little bit later about the proposed sale of the Observer but before we do that.

I wonder how you approach covering this issue and whether you as editor of the observed on the receiving end of efforts to influence how you approach the issue.

Well.

Yes, I mean we've during my period working on the server.

We've covered the story classics.

Innova quite a long period of time because course is but the latest attempt to reform the law over the issue and we've I can recall running pieces with conversations with them Mary Warnock friends, and she was one of the great pioneers of the conversation about assisted dying is a very strong advocates of it and we've traditionally taken a very supportive position on reform Law Week you know we consider it to be possible if you like a little tradition that people should have the right to take very the very difficult decisions and when I was when I was younger.

It seems to be part of a source of Progressive move to challenge some of the the perhaps Wilkinson

Asset that surrounded DC shoes.

I think it's become much more complex this time.

I think there's been a real shift in the way that we generally talk about it and that includes the media so I think the idea of newspapers take particular positions on this in the way that they do on some of the other divisive issues is no longer really the case and did you have any concerns about the different players within the Debate who were attempting to influence media coverage of it.

Did you feel like you understood? Who they were and what was finding them and what their gender was well.

I mean my position is generally when campaigning groups.

We need as much transparency as we can so when campaigning groups from whatever side of the debates have it's clearly a very very well resourced debate in the sense that you go into the underground here in London and you'll see posters.

You'll see expensive campaigning.

Techniques being used and I think it's a great benefit to the conversation that but we know what the source of the resources to be used in campaigns are the observed features story about a letter had an influence on the auntie assisted dying side from religious groups and raised the issue of whether the connection with groups at night be involved in in finding them and generating those that cause the city were whether that relationship was completely clear that was as you say that was on the side of the Debate that is raising concerns about this sister died, but as your previous speaker has said you know this is a conversation that should be held in the open on all sides of the Debate and yes, yes we did.

I I think and clearly that's now begun to sort of coincide with the

Religious attitudes on the way that they've been brought to bear on the conversation and that came up for a Sharpie last weekend which above my moods remarks that the Observer featured and there is a sort of sense that in some way sort of a strong religious conviction needs to be one needs to consider the origin of people's views times their strong religious convictions.

I'm very uncertain about that.

I think it's quite legitimate for somebody in a position to declare Hurst View and I don't think it's a huge admired telephone.

I don't think it's a particularly legitimate of what she said to suggest that it's it comes from a religious stance so

So, yes, I mean I think for instance when you look at the way you covered in the past when you go back to see probably the greatest Anglican cleric in my of my lifetime will send you one of them up to two who was a very very strong advocate of reform of the law last time it came up in this country and so you can see there's no direct read off between religious views and and attitudes on this subject.

Are you staying with us to get further perspective on this issue, and how the media has been covering it.

We contacted doctor near me Richards is director of the end of life studies group at the University of Glasgow research.

How these debates around issues such as this evolved and Dr Richards sent us this voice note surprise me most about the coverage.

Is that we haven't had a lot of exposure to the actual evidence from jurisdictions where it's lawful.

I find that the media often gives the impression that this is a proposal which is.

Being considered by the UK that we are inventing something from scratch and the most bizarre aspect so the last was proposed almost a decade ago and a lot of happened internationally since then in terms of the number of jurisdictions, which have legalised so we can honestly find out the answer to most of the questions that we might have for the specific law that we are proposing which makes me question why aren't the public being informed about this and my own view is that there's a perception to even cover assisted dying as a phenomenon which already exists in the world would be perceived to be an implicit endorsement of that phenomenon that was Dr Naomi Richards from the University of Glasgow and let's follow her advise, if you like I can talk to someone close to this issue in an American state, where assisted dying is legal.

McFadden also known as Hospice nurse Julie is a palliative care nurse and influencer.

She regularly posts about her work to her 1.6 million followers on tiktok.

Do you need welcome to the media show your based in California where assisted? I was legalised in 2016.

When did you decide to start talking about it publicly? Hi everyone.

Thanks for having me I was 2021 when I first got on social media and the daffodil.

I was one of the topics.

I definitely want to make sure I covered because most people in America I didn't know it was legal in some States and I haven't been California was legal and I said witnessing a lot of people need to know about this people didn't know that it was even a thing and listening to us.

I think you been listening to us discussing this issue.

What do you think here in the UK we can learn from places where sis?

Time is already happening.

You know I think just from working in this area for so for so long.

I put in there for 16 years is so clear to me that this something that is that is needed now.

It's a personal choice of course is personal.

It's private not everyone has to do it, but I think it's so important that people have the right to autonomy they are getting towards the end of life.

They have a terminal illness.

They should be allowed to have the choice to do it however.

They were riding have the option in many many patients of mine.

Have a beautiful peaceful death and that they had control over because of this law will you did make an extraordinary video actually immediately after rising one of your sister death procedures.

You've been involved in it's worse.

Just ask hearing a little bit of that.

I just want someone to take the end of life medication which is legal in 11 states in the US

Play try and I work in California where is legal and I just want to know my patience drink medication and then die purposely they wanted to this what they were they were terminally ill and very very very elderly and they're like enough is enough.

I'm out here and they want to go and they were so happy to drink that drink.

It's so happy to fall asleep within a few minutes later.

I mean it's clearly a huge privilege to be with somebody when they die in terms of you posting that what reaction you get when you post something.

I know you must face some pretty serious ethical dilemmas in terms of exposing people to social media in the backlash.

Yeah, so I'm about dying in general so educated many topics surrounding death and dying but there's a couple topics that give me in a little bit of hot water.

Give me some heat in this is one of them for sure because people and

As far as privacy goes I changed many things you know I don't really give a lot of and details of who does person is right, but just generally speaking those videos usually go viral when anything goes viral.

There are many many opinion so it's definitely a topic that I get a lot of he4 in my comments for Cheryl people saying I'm going to help people saying the person who took the medication to going to hell and you know that doesn't stop me I feel like people need to know about this.

I'm glad you guys you're talking about talking about this topic despite.

You know people having very heated opinions about it here in the Studio with Casey we appreciate you coming on you talk about viral which is obviously connected to the algorithm of the site that your posting on as well as people choosing to share your videos I assume not every video goes viral.

Do you sometimes get for a

Said that you your chosen Media platform is one which you don't have complete control over in terms of what reaches your audience and what doesn't yeah? I mean definitely being I am still a nurse.

I still do nursing but creating content that one over you know one of my very big job that I do not know what I'm doing it.

So it can be frustrating knowing that there are certain topics that you know they just on as catchy as another top of grade so it can get fresh hurting but at the end of the day.

I always remember why I'm here.

Why I'm doing it.

It's purely for educational purposes and I want to change the way we look at that and dying I want to get the conversation started.

So you know it is I wonder I mean we're obviously in touch with you now.

Have you had a lot of interest from more traditional Media such as broadcasting radio and television wanted to understand what you're doing.

I've been really surprised you know I've been doing this for 3 years now and it's really it was it was unaware and this whole thing that people are even interested in talking about death and dying has prising to me.

You know because of my everyday life at dinner parties people ask what I do.

I say.

I'm a hospice and palliative care nurses and they don't want to talk about it right.

They shy away from a conversation but seems that the internet newspapers radio show TV shows in a people seem to be ready because they're interviewing me another you know other people in this area so I'm surprised from happy.

Well.

Thank you very much indeed for speaking to us.

That's Julie McFadden Hospice nurse as she also calls herself.

She's reading the book called nothing here which are is available.

That is a New York Times bestseller.

Thanks very much indeed Julie thanks.

Also Janet Eastham the Social and religious affairs editor at the Telegraph now.

The Observer is the world's oldest Sunday newspaper even if you don't read it.

You'll have heard of it and the Guardian we joined the internet is looking to sell it to the media startup Tortoise and the storage has been evolving and we have been a few developments to know recently the Guardian and observer staff of voted to go on strike to oppose this sale that's planned for next week also the Scott trust which oversees the Guardian earlier this week to discuss the matter.

It says talks continue to progress also 5 press freedom groups have written to the Scott Trust raising a range of questions and concerns about the propose sale, so still a lot of activity around the story and Paul Webster was the papers editor and tell very recently and Paul of course you're still here.

I'm going to talk in a moment, but first the founder of tools James was on the media show a few weeks ago here's some of what he told us if you look at what happened in terms of circulation if you look at what happened to The Newsroom you know you know.

North of 60% you can see that without significant Investments without the ability to bring on the best journalists without a commercial team with an answer without an investment in a term digital proposition and digital subscription business and without a Clear Vision of the future the observers going to disappear just pull never heard that you're probably hate it when it was on at the time.

What's your reaction? What's your response to watch his arguing my responses that in fact having worked for the postcode for nearly three decades and as you say having edited it for 6 years.

It feels to me like a paper in a title in relatively rude health and that occupies its place on the Sunday newsstand with some figure is an important part of that mix on Sunday it brings her political dimension that would be sorely lacking where it's not there.

It's it's certainly the case that since the Observer join the Guardian family back in 1993.

It's it's relationship has been through certain phases, it's encountered difficulties because it's difficult to promote to Brands within one website for instance but actually my experience is that the relationship has grown stronger during the course of that period and when James who I admire enormously as a preparative tortoise and the editor of the time but when he talks about a reduction of in the news front that is partly because we share resources so well with the Guardian and that's particularly true for instance with foreign coverage where we are we are absolutely seamless in the way that we use this extraordinary range of Orange

Lay it out for us though.

We know that print newspaper certainly have seen declines over the years and the Observer is you know I think around 100000 or so people die every Sunday these days and was many hundreds of thousands more before why should people listening to this care who owns The Observer because because apparently going back to what I just said because the Scott Trust has provided us with a very with with a very stable basis from which we can express the values and concerns of the Observer the body that owns the Guardian and the Scott trust that purchase the when it was the brink of closure back in 1993 and has nourished and sustain the paper during the subsequent years so masses in honestly that we have that.

It's a very good relationship with because although we have a distinctive voice on the Observer nonetheless.

We come from broadly speaking a similar kind of ideological of Liberal side of the Liberal progressive side of journalism, which is a very vital voice when you look at the media landscape in Britain when you look at the you know the power of the newspaper groups the other newspaper groups and emergent broadcast Media you realise that that Voice is absolutely critical that away.

Is it because Paul does the saying we're going to create a brand that is the Observer and it's going to be a 7-day week corporation with the prince still on Sunday is your had a good relation to have a good relationship with staff because the staff voted to go on strike the relationship with The Bosses at the garden does not look good because and indeed perhaps the Scottish who knows because they're saying to you.

Status Quo can't remain you either being sold or all things are going to have to change the relationship with that level in the company has taken a sharp turn for the worse it has to be said in the past few weeks which is being has been dismaying for obviously for a large number of the staff and for me personally.

I mean the truth of the matter.

Is that we make a modest but nonetheless discernible contribution to the finances of the of the company if they do this order that panel do not have done and ordered the actually when you take into account everything from the cost the advertising and all that the Observer doesn't pay for but equally the cost of the business pages page of the international pages which aren't Observer journalist that they would say would they not that the finances don't look good.

That's true to a degree but even want to factor those in.

The losses that the Observer is projected to make in the next 5 years or so, I'm mini school compared to a company that sitting on a very very substantial cash part of 1.3 billion.

What's the Scott trust and it's absolutely clear that the function of the Scott Trust has been made clear again and again is to protect and nourish and sustain liberal journalism at home and Abroad that is that's the its purpose in life.

It's not to build up another larger.

Cache mountain.

It's to invest in journalism, and it has been a very good and actually not an expensive certainly not in the way it's been presented something that represents some kind of existential threat to the Guardian which is Which is you know that the observers continue with presents.

I think we bring breath to the paper to the website.

Think we're important voice in British politics.

I think that good though tortoise Media is it is not the sort of company.

I believe that is able to sustain a very expensive business of running a Sunday newspaper which is a couple of further questions on this first of all that if this strike goes ahead you think of the got the garden centre cafe cross the picket.

That's a difficult question would you ensure offer on on strike if I was on Sky coming? I I came guardian originally all those years ago back in 1986 because I didn't want to cross the picket line in popping.

I was on the Sunday Times and difficult question well.

I think probably she will probably see as the editor-in-chief so she is under a compulsion to try to continue you know to produce the journalism that goes.

The website that goes around the world.

I think it would be an extraordinary if she were to knock time cross the picket line about someone who you work with the many years Jay Rayner the Observer star food critic who's just announced that he's going to the fts.

Left the paper and he's retweeted your opposition to the sale of the Observer he also said they were anti-semites on the Guardians new staff are there well you do would have to ask Jay who I must have the same.

I don't recognise that definition of my colleagues, but his experience has clearly been different to mine.

I mean I know that the issue that the tensions around the issues of in throwing up by the conflicts in the Middle East have been very strong in in in in the company of very very stressful, but I don't recognise that definition.

I know that day was and is extremely unhappy about the sale at we've just been talking about the proposed fail.

He has I think on his private Facebook page has expressed the number of other concerns you raise one I can't I can't confirm what you just suggested and on those particular comics the Guardians said we take allegations of this nature extremely seriously the Guardian Media Group has a zero-tolerance approach to anti-semitism and Katie as we talk with with Paul here.

I'm thinking that we've had this conversation with relations and lots of different media companies as they try and transition from what was their core business once to what their new looking Digital Business has to be absolutely little brand of the Guardian does look like it is the Guardian it's difficult for the Observer in those circumstances because of vaginas and does Sit Under The Guardian banner, but he didn't.

Own separate Observer website and that this operation that the garden is apparently trying to create the many people trying to create the digital first brand to glowglobe on the world.

That's having some success doing that it just looks as if it wasn't for the Observer well.

It looks looks challenging but not impossible at all.

I mean Observer journalism thrives on website so for instance you talked about Jay Rayner I mean Jay Rayner gets enormous audiences for his his restaurant reviews on the line about branding.

It's something we talked about a lot with relation to lots of medium businesses.

No one disputes that Jay Rayner is an incredibly popular food critic no doubt that's why the Financial Times is has high demand.

Why you enjoyed having him on your door so many years but the question is does he need to be under 1 grand or another does it make sense for a digital media company to be offering to headline brands in a globalised world.

Consumers are not just in the country where the business is based, but elsewhere to it's it's it's a challenge, but it seems to be not an insurmountable challenge.

I don't see why not I mean you know the four J if you were to go behind the pay wallet at Orsett says that his audiences were dropped from quarter of the million to 30,000 whatever now he would take that very seriously.

I don't think play has had any difficulty in people recognising him as the observers food critic and I can't see why when you look at the way that for instance the New York Times incorporates different product bundles of products has universe successful athletic Strand of its offering I don't see why some kind of arrangement because it is time to think about how are you? Do that and Resources to think about it? What it doesn't need is for the observatory coloured bundled out of the door.

We talked about the bundles.

Just last week in fact on the media show with head of games of the new year.

Thank you very much for coming in are you enjoying Saturday night small and now you're not editor of The Observer I am enjoying Saturday and Liars although I shall I still open time to listen to today and I still miss Michelle enormously when she leaves but I'm enjoying my my new leisure here.

I am thank you now.

We're going to be promoted because the rap star Drake has launched a legal action against universal music accusing labour with the label of artificially boosting streams of Kendrick Lamar Diss track against him not like music using universal and the streaming giant Spotify of an illegal scheme to promote the song to find out more I spoke to the BBC's Mark Savage and began by asking him to explain what a Diss track is this track is a test of lyrical skillet is to MCs pitted against each other dying to see who can lobby the best insult to take their opponent down.

Is right back to the start of hip hop you know there's Tupac songs like him up and Jay Z takeover Eminem started off doing Rap Battles this is part of the metal of rap music and when it comes to the mercy of rap music there is a very particular this track at the centre of this lossing.

Yes, this is Kendrick Lamar song not like us this as the sort of coordination of two months of back-and-forth between Drake the biggest selling rapper in the world and Kendrick Lamar the most critically acclaimed rapper in the world and they had been missing each other for years but all blew up at the start of this year with a series of tracks where Drake first of all called Kendrick a midget and lots of other insults he said he had abused his wife something that is not proven and has been denied and Ken

Back with other tracks saying that Drake was not respected by the rat fraternity that he was an Imposter and then eventually I'm not like us some of the most serious insults saying that Drake was a sexual predator who had a preference for young girls of these are obviously things drink has denied since on record and in these legal papers that have been filed this week in New York and Texas and this finding it isn't a full lawsuit at the moment, but what what are they? Saying? Do it called a pro Action paper and it is essentially it's almost fact-finding Drake and his lawyer to sign that they want to sue universal Records that is the label that distribute music for also distribute to Kendrick Lamar's music.

He says that day artificially inflated the success of Kendrick song by paying radio stations to play it by ear.

Paying streaming services like Spotify to promote it and by paying influencers online to say how good the song was generating over 100 billion streams for Grammy nominations all sorts of success for Kendrick who up until that point had been left commercially successful and Drake wonder is this record industry works.

Is this what happens to pay I mean to a certain extent.

Yes, there is part of Drake's first court paper in New York where he accuses universal of taking a 30% cut in royalties to have Kendrick Lamar song promoted on Spotify not actually that is a known thing.

There's something on Spotify called Discovery mode any are just whether there on a big label other independent can have a reduced rate of royalties in order to have their song seeded into people's playlists more frequently or to appear on artist mix is more frequently that is just part of the record industry work.

And of course this all ties back to the idea of payola that was a big big scandal in the early days of rock and roll radio.

It was a congressional hearing into it and 1959 were some DJs that they've been paid $22,000.

This is in the 50s.

Just to give a record one player on the station because it was so commercially important to get your music heard that is not illegal.

It was made illegal after the hearing you have to disclose if you have to disclose when does sponsored AirPlay if if you had paid to have the song promoted there are loopholes if the payment is made through a third party.

Then technically doesn't count but essentially the the practises.

I thought that as it's known is that relevant to this story that is certainly what breaking his lawyers are alleging that they were financial transactions made in order to get.

Just played on Radio One of the stations that he cites is iHeartRadio that is the biggest media company in America they have more than 800 stations and every market and not my gas was definitely a big hit on a lot of decisions however in the papers filed in Texas they say they don't actually have proof that any money changed hands and that's what these legal actually about because it's not litigation yet.

It's Discovery they want the court to order universal music iHeartRadio Spotify to retain any documents that might prove this and give oral evidence that might support the argument that Drake's team making what you seem to be saying is that the allegations is serious but actually they don't have the bedside whistleblowers people talking online about receiving money or paying money in order to have these songs played they cite a few things that we do need to be.

Fact such as and very strange situation, where not like us was whitelisted on YouTube which meant anybody who is making a video discussing the song could play it in Ireland without having a copyright notice that will take down the song they wouldn't have to pay any royal this word that is really unusual and it's certainly suggests that there is an effort Kendrick Lamar side or from universal music side to have his song dominate the conversation whether or not that illegal.to different question and I think what's really happening is receiving a huge breakdown in relations between brick and universal music which distributors records and has done for 14 years in the papers filed in New York he said that he had tried to have meetings with the company and they refused he said that Drake loyalist within universal music for fired these are all accusations of course that universal denies.

Cancel saying about this court case pencil case they issued a statement after the first legal papers were filed on Monday they said the suggestion that universal would do anything to under any of it artist is offensive and untrue we employed the highest ethical practises in our marketing and promotional campaigns and I think the real killer blue was they said the reason this song was popular is fans and you know I think there is a little touch of this story where it feels like there is some sour Grapes from grapes side because he lost the battle of the other way and then we'll see if he doesn't lose this bass all this cold legal battle what impact might it have on the music industry and especially regarding ethical practise marketing the future of streaming services Finglas an artist talk all the time about unfair streaming is not just in terms of royalties button.

Discoverability how you find a new r-design you are just breakthrough artist on smaller labels or who released their own music or sometimes put the disadvantage those are huge discussion to the name and I think this case does have the potential to blue that open but we will wait to see what the lawyers say and whether the judges side with Drake's lawyers on whether or not this can even will keep an eye on that.

Thank you very much indeed to Mark Savage from the BBC for helping us through that story now in the last 10 minutes of the movie show this week.

We are going to talk about what a very important season advertising the Super Bowl of marketing some people call it the Christmas ads there is as you'd imagine an awful.

Lot of money in this advertisers are expected to spend 10 1/2 billion.

This is one of the people charged with coming up with some of the most high-profile Christmas ads Frankie good when he was chief creative officer at Saatchi and Saatchi hello Frankie hello.

Made the John Lewis advert this year so before we talk.

I think we should hear a clip of it.

Let's just say that.

What you looking for Frankie TV adverts on so great on radio so I'm thinking perhaps you could describe a little bit just a bit confused.

I think I'm like a pretty much the form that hole and I've seen it so many times is the story of Sally who is left it a little bit too late to find a gift for her sister.

Who is who is difficult to buy and and then is attracted to a beautiful record dresses and Bell navigate through those dresses into her memories, too.

Find her sister age 7 and 1914 and then and its non-linear in that way the memories are and that's why it's kind of dream me and you have to go with the flow for a while to find out what she's doing.

It's basically trying to find inspiration to these guys and loads of memories with pencil sister and eventually she doesn't how did you get brainstorm something like that and when did you know that you found the idea? I'm really starting earlier and we get lots of people together on we brainstorm lots of ideas and themes on it.

We need to see that we wanted to focus on A real relationship that the real relationships that our customers have with their and their loved ones and friends that was then we also wanted to inject some magic as it's Christmas and I think that's where we got to this.

Sort of merging of a real story in real people rather than characters this year.

Bin bags for in the past but then taking it into her fantastical dreamy space is Rosie with Katie you.

Hi there to be really bothered about it.

You get an awful.

Lot of money from John Lewis for coming up with this out and making it.

What do they hope for in return? What are you supposed to be delivering with this advert? What are the outcomes? They want suicide is one of the most exciting and expect anticipated adverts of the whole year so ultimately I think the public are waiting to be moved and entertained and to feel like Christmas is kicking off and then be on Netflix the metrics are multiple and diverse in terms of Engagement sentiment tiktok competition this year.

Cos we want we want to get involved in a way that they never have done before and then ultimately of course it's about the performance of the store so that you got to the performance of the store at the end.

I was just wondering how central that is.

Are these adverts designed to dry big sales in the weeks after it comes out or is it more complex than that we are developing a real sense of love for the brand inner reinvigoration of how people feel about John Lewis but then definitely in expectation is that translate many other activation and activity that John Lewis a moment where you will sit down in a room and someone presses play and you wait to see if they're happy with it or not.

There is quite literally a bunker and you know which we gather it's very early in the morning to see how everyone to be acting in this sentiment is and it's it.

Is it is we're going to talk about more about the significance of Christmas as with Maisie McCabe is the UK as of the advertising magazine campaign hello mate.

You're in the Studio with us.

Just let.

Is it still a big media event the Christmas ad season definitely? I think there's no I think some of the views and maybe down on previous years.

We've had basically sort of 15 years of Christmas been such a part of cannabis culture people still get really excited.

I mean it's the only time that people whose they don't work in advertising think about advertising often John Lewis toddler skateboard and brilliant Super Bowl moment.

Obviously we don't actually have a game in which of these ads to play.

It's just kind of an invented thing and it started with that begin with the long way in 2011 and sort of over a decade.

I think the Christmas ads advertising there was a long long way was the little boy who was wrapping up a present and he thought about Christmas and you thought it was to get his presents and you know that to happen again.

Yes.

Airline of Ethos the Super Bowl has the actual game of the Superbowl in which we had to drop you know people are still really excited.

I think we've had the media landscape is becoming more fragmented, but these as really do dry the reason really pointless the reason retailers spend money on advertising spend money on things that they don't believe it going to deliver for them, but I'm interested are they still wanted to spend the big box on TV when you I was watching some earlier Christmas ads in the office and I was watching them all on YouTube because all the brands are putting those adverts there.

They could not spend all that money on TV ad just put them out in the digitally through and let me add do I think it's quite hard actually for something for a commercial film to go viral without lots of money being spent was it this week trying to get an estimate of how much people are spending?

The big retailers obviously Frankie probably wouldn't tell us can still spend in the region of your 750000 £2000000 introduction for these ads and then I'll spend maybe another 8 million also Media on TV and then you probably got another similar amount on digital and other platforms as well and is the Christmas ads for severely British or is it a tradition in other countries as well? Have you got any good examples? I imagine it is quite a bit sister Edition but it is so you do get Christmas cards.

Elsewhere.

There was a really great one from Australia this year.

It's actually a mobile platform telstra and then it's got donkey.

I'd like to watch is it the donkey saw all of the phone and then becomes famous for being a singing donkey and then and then eventually comes back to you.

It's heartwarming Christmas tale.

Are you saying in terms of our are there in the UK are you saying? How do you judge? This this year's because there's quite a lot of returning characters on that people that we've seen before.

I mean I think so as I say though because I've built sort of over a decade then we had the pandemic which obviously made you know just the production of these things really complicated the working around them really complicated and we had a couple of safety as an actually this year.

I think there's been quite a lot of bravery and some of the lads got as he mentioned earlier some quite complicated stories and some of them lots of posts.

You've got like big.

You know the big characters turning everything into a gingerbread.

That'll cost a lot of money.

Does are people working quite hard to make that looks special well amazing McCabe from campaign and also franki Goodwin from Saatchi and Saatchi both of you.

Thank you so much for coming on the programme alright.

Well.

That was all to get you back on.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much indeed for joining us that is our time up here at the media show as we always say at the end of the program if you want to listen to any.

Of the program you can find them all on BBC sounds, but thank you so much for your company good.

Bye.

Bye.