Read this: CNN Syria video, Health Misinformation, Time Person of the Year

You're about to listen to BBC podcast but this is about something else you might enjoy my name is Katie lucky, and I'm an assistant commissioner for on demand music on BBC sounds the BBC has credible musical heritage and culture and has a music lover.

I love being part of that with music on sounds we offer collections and mixers for everything from workouts to helping you nod off the kitchen or even just a moment of calm and they all put together by people who know their stuff so if you want some expertly curated music in your life checkout BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome in a minute.

Will talk about the CNN report from a prison in Syria at is coming under intense scrutiny in the BBC News investigation into health misinformation on Steven Bartlett diary of a CEO podcast.

Look at where the podcast need further regulation and will look at the media boom in health-related content the winners of video of the year at the first UK and Ireland tiktok awards and they've turned Maps into huge viewing numbers on tell us how they done it going to discuss news paying Donald Trump 15 million in a settlement which is raised questions about how the Us press will approach Trump's second term and we're going to speak to the editor and chief of Time Magazine about how they choose their person of the year which this time around Donald Trump been out to a video which has been making headlines in the past few days CNN chief international correspondent is Clarissa Ward she's been on the media show a number of times the last week she released a report which we were told showed Assyrian prisoner being freed by Rebels in a Damascus Prison this is some of it says I'm a civilian.

He's from the city been in the sale for 3-months with both hands.

Produced in the video that you can hear we see a man being discovered in a cell under a blanket then LED outside by Rebels and Chris award Witnesses it all.

It's a remarkable sequencing this report had a huge impact.

It's been shared widely watched millions of times Hale incredible piece of TV journalism from the start of questions were being asked if there were lots of suggestions online and it looks stage that the man in question look too well.

Spent much time in one of the regime's brutal prisons the whole think felt off wooden emphasise these concerns were not established, but the video was drawing a lot of attention both positive and negative and then in fact checking organisation called verifies.

I said they identify the man in question that is served in a sad Air Force intelligence directorate and is accused of Human Rights abuses.

And then confirmed that it had been misled by the man that use facial recognition technology to compare its photos with a picture of the man from the Intelligence directorate and that there was a very strong match man.

He said portrayed as a victim of a sad was also identified by Holmes residence as one of his henchmen well.

Let's talk to do with media correspondent for NPR in the USA regular on the media show David your time as ever what were your first impressions when you watch this video look I don't want to claim any credit for scepticism, but I must say I look sideways edit a little I felt that this was a gentleman who you know it wasn't quite possible for me to figure out how the sky and merged with a very clean pair of jeans are very nice looking over coat.

Perhaps and degree of surprise.

That is what I experienced that you know that I want to say just no evidence or believe that I had then.

How did she know when we fabricated anything here, but you know it seemed to me as though the drama which was both literally and figuratively gripping for her was less so for me as if you're and it's about the reasons for that that hasn't fully crystallised in my mind is what it might be that that this guy might have actually been part of the regime that was being overthrown in these days and what do we know about the editorial processes that may been followed inside CNN once this has been filmed and before it was put into the public domain we don't know a lot seeing has not for example told us how they got this exclusive access to the liberation of this element of that notorious prison or somebody torches.

You know horrible lichens of pain head then said you have been executed by the by the Assad regime.

You know they were there with one of the rebel Fighters in and we learnt that.

So they had to turn off the camera northern should have to walk there is no reason to believe that transpire the way it was described but we don't know enough really about the circumstances in about the decisions to me.

What's an exclusive and so they could have turned around quickly as they did you share this with the world get the acclaim and get the attention on that's my gosh and liberation of Man where they could have taken it by now.

That's use the kinds of technology the leader used to identify would do they say 99% certain to you using face symmetry of digital pictures right figure out more about this was where he was from practical back to his village and really develop a full story as opposed to a moment and I think that was sort of the journalistic and editorial Labs there on on the part.

Not just of people over seeing your team and directing the coverage more broadly and I'm not passing judgement at all on Clarissa Ward when I note that in this particular report she shows emotion you can see.

Shock at the discovery you can see that she's moved by what she seeing is that usual within American TV news coverage.

I think you tend to see more ladder for that in more dramatic moment so for example the coverage of the devastation of hurricane season in countering victims during words are famines.

There is a way in which the Firm course.

I think you've seen is the British tradition as well at times, but you know is allowed to acknowledge their own humanity and the community of those Day in Canada as a way of being a standing for those who aren't there for their listeners and readers and I must say I think it was also this may be presented with me but in some ways I felt as though I was informed by the fact that she's very explicitly like many journalist has been hoping to find out what happened to Tyson American journalist who's been there over a decade help believed to be held in captivity by the Assad regime and therefore you know had hoped that this person underneath the blankets to be.

Might be this journal is the chain others had been hoping to find out the Fate of an opening to reveal was was alive and well then so I think you're some inclusion of Dad rap the motion wrapped up in that one.

What we've seen from a report in heard from her colleagues and it's quite careful language language as she put out and I believe social media posts and the network did put out early late on Monday Night full of Pisa allergy verify size reservations and invite contradiction of the report and ultimately folding into their own thing we have done her own additional reporting.

I do think that good thing is a good way to try to cure bad reporting and I think it's important to be transparent and share things as things are right.

I am surprised not to see more on the television network you know on.

Component where the story was first presented circle matter clear.

I'd like this would be something that you would think they would walk through in explaining a broader wave at the viewers more likely be the people who saw it on there on the television networks as well as online but you know I think it's this sort of a moderate degree of transparency here rather than the fungus that one might think the whole thing raises ethical questions about this kind of reporting about reporting this sort of moment when you come across it and how fast you put that out as a journalist.

I think they're there is more important than speed or ability technologically to convey things across the globe instantaneously, is you know most unconfined now.

It's impressive and it allows us to connect on a human level from events that might seem very different from American to me not have a personal and family stay got some understanding the strategic sticks of that part of the world at the time.

I think dukeries is as I say must be paramount that really it in this age wearing trust in Media in our country as well as yours is really an adverb that must be seen to be taking every effort to be accurate and fair and contextualized rather than immediate than first even though that's not always the way in which we are commercially rewarding and I think he's cbsn allowed the drama of the moment the human Element of it, which I must say I didn't find as compelling as they did I think the imbued with the meaning that would be.

Had a victim with been in in their prison for many years would have afforded but in fact you know turns out to be a very different story and I think it's you know in some ways a recall of the way.

It's hard to tell immediately what's actually happening in moments of chaos as well as liberation David for the moment.

Thank you very much indeed.

That's David folkenflik from NPR as spokesperson has told the BBC no one other than the CNN team was aware of our plans to visit the prison building featured in our report that day the events transpired as they appear in our film the decision to release the prison featured in our report was taken by the Garda Syrian rebel we reported the seen as it unfolded including what the prisoners told us with clear attribution.

We have subsequently been investigating his background and said he may have given us a false identity.

We are continuing our reporting into this and the wider story.

I'm going to stay in the US because ABC News has reached a settlement.

Donald Trump and this is caused quite a Ferrari yes this really has drawn a huge amount of attention.

This is ABC News agreed to pay 15 million to President-elect Donald Trump to settle a defamation lawsuit.

Did he brought after a man and a PC presenter falsely said he been found liable for rape George stephanopoulos by the star anchors on ABC made the statement repeatedly during interview earlier this year with a congresswoman nancy mace in a civil case determine trump was liable for sexual abuse well usually settlement came through on Saturday the network will pay that 15 million hours mentioning that it will reportedly go towards trump future presidential library ABC is also paying 1 million towards legal fees and this has caused a lot of upset in some quarters with democratic attorney Mark Elias ring kissed another Legacy news outlet uses.

Washington Post journalist Eric Wimborne Road ABC News will never live down this capitulation never meanwhile on Fox Jesse what has said the Legacy Media is finally facing justice will take a look at all this from a legal point of view first with Katie fallowden litigation director at night first amendment Institute at Columbia University welcome to the medium.

Thank you.

Just explain first with you why the statement liable for rape was false yeah, well, it was in the lawsuit brought by Jean Carroll against trump for both rape and sexual abuse and for defamation when trump denied her charge is a her claim that she had been raised and the jury in that is found that Trump is liable for conduct that did not qualify under the definition of rape under New York law but that he was like.

For first penetration by his fingers which is sexual abuse under New York law about it, so when George stephanopoulos said your trump argues, that is factually inaccurate on the other hand the standard for proving defamation is extremely high under and because Trump is a public figure.

He would have had to demonstrate that the statement was factually false and that stephanopoulos knew that it was for he made it and where are you saying? Are you suggesting then? Sorry to interrupt but if ABC had chosen to defend it would have had a case that would have been quite hard for Donald Trump to win the yeah.

I think that ABC had a number of very strong defences especially given this high standard.

I mean one big fat was that the judge in this case held.

Trump in considering the justification for the damage of word the judge held that the common use of the term rape and in fact the definition of rape under of jurisdictions including under federal law would cover the conduct that trump has found liable for engaging in I think they would also be the question of whether he was additionally define by saying rape vs.

Sexual abuse but more importantly than that for defamation law heat.

They would have had a show that stephanopoulos knew that it was factually accurate and falls to say that he was found liable for Raven the new it at the time and particularly given the judges comments in the case and holding in the case and the ambiguity I think they would have a strong defence and so I think some of the reaction was that this was done so early in the case and the concern is that you're having a major Media outlet.

Referring to the social media posts seen it has given to a piece of the president and it's all very public we know the facts of it.

It's public domain and some commentators have noted you know that there isn't to cause an nda.

Otherwise we wouldn't know about it.

Is that something that ABC good of ask for you know any again can ask for an nda and a settlement of a case.

I mean my and my sort of Reading of the apology the public apology in this case in addition to the significant settlement is that are ABC was agreeing to essentially vindicate transposition and that was a major goal of trump in seeking the settlement David Falcon flight from mpi.

You're listening to our conversation here.

Let's bring you back in how do you read the consequences of this decision by ABC for the broadcast Media more broadly.

Will look we don't know what kind of embarrassing or or damning material made of candlelight had the case gone for this week stephanopoulos and trump both scheduled to sit for questioning under oath as part of the process leading towards a trial so Disney wanted to say that and then some reporting from the New York Times Disney also the parent company BBC news.

That was very concerned that if they were to lose particularly a bed the Supreme Court level on a chord dominated by trump appointees conservative allies that it might wipe away a 60-year a president that you are protecting the president of these kinds of suits from Public officials that said I think it means the press people are really strict industry this weekend as this music in the way that the fact that it was public the fact that it was such a big dollar figure.

Relative to usual size of such things in the fact that it was settled money did as we just have a number of strong legal defences.

It means that it happens in a context where you see number news organisations position themselves to essentially a comedy or to appease trump.

It's very hard for you than any other way these at the Kildare editorial endorsements in the Los Angeles time in the Washington Post vice president Harris against trump.

Just days before the November elections these papers proud papers owned by billionaires with significant business centres that stand before federal you know there's a number of actions done by me organizations and social media organizations.

Just before trump take office once again this evening to get on it right side and I just want to play that also this week.

He says press conference of marahlago that he's going to be doing work that she just sued a poster in Iowa for getting it wrong and see me the should come my house with the lead a couple of days before the election explain the selection.

It's as though he's saying he has to hold the press accountable which is an invasion of what we think of this country with the thresholds powerful government officials to account but there's a counter to this on the endorsements in fact I discuss this with you when I was in Washington a few weeks back.

There's an argument that endorsements buy newspapers are out of date and the Washington Post was correct and on the issue of what happened with ABC former Fox News host now very successful podcast and making Kelly said of what ABC is said on here this was just so egregious and they did it over and over again and she is glad and trump supporters are glad that he's taking a more muscular approach, when they feel they've been in accurately represented the Great Totham of are polarised age that this is being viewed through highly highly ideological lenses.

I think we are also grown up enough to be able hold two ideas or head at the same time.

I wouldn't defend with George stephanopoulos said I think.

Clean it up and done so quickly you know what he said needed to accommodate the fact that the jury in that civil case was offered the opportunity to find Donald Trump liable for Carolyn did not do so it did not find that my about it did find my ball of this other account of sexual abuse which is like sexual assault and as the judge said you know in Israel explicitly this would be seen by many people and defined another jurisdictions as rape if she said simply said that it's enough characterisation of what went wrong.

Then you could have been Justified doing it.

He didn't that needed be clean up that's different from saying that ABC News defend the president has been accused by multiple people with sexual assault another sexual improprieties years the idea that this is a brand new kind of allegation against them isn't the case you know I just want to bring David I just want to fly back in from Columbia

Talking about the areas where other media outlets were Trump is suing do we have a sense of his success rate? Yes is success rate is very low.

I'm not aware of any other case where he is filed a defamation claim or another claim against the media that letter journalist work He has either prevailed in court 1 a settlement and you know he has been an extremely rude person as an individual and as a president and as a president and now future president you know I agree with David that there.

Was you know an argument hear that what stephanopoulos said was factually inaccurate and should be cleaned up by must all the other cases that he is Fylde including This recent case against the poster including his case against cbs4.

How it ended its interview with Kamala Harris you know in my mind.

It as a lawyer border on frivolous and appear to be part of a strategy in fact.

I think you know Trump is essentially said it to intimidate critics shutdown criticism of trump and his policies and you know as soon David mention your there's a polarisation and how this case has been seen but this protection for critical coverage of our public officials applies across the political spectrum and will protect the speech of people like megyn Kelly so I think what he is doing here by finding all these litigation all these lawsuits is to stifle public discourse and that's really dangerous from the night first amendment Institute at Columbia University thank you very much indeed.

Thank you.

David Pocock from NPR we should add an ABC spokesperson said in a statement the company was pleased that the parties have reached an agreement to dismiss the lawsuit on the terms in the court filing now.

Last month Steven Bartlett podcast diary of a CEO announced than 1 billion streams across apple spot apple Spotify and YouTube that stood 8.1 million subscribers to YouTube we can add into the equation and over 300 million views on YouTube in 2024 Alone by any measure a huge success is the 21 episode from earlier this year from milk is not crazy.

You may also have seen a BBC World Service investigation found the Steven Bartlett diary of a CEO podcast is amplifying harmful health misinformation with little or no challenge no small matter of course when you cancel that last month apple confirm the diary of a CEO is the UK's most downloaded podcast for a third year running a spokesperson for

Video that Steven bartletts production company said the diary of a CEO or doac is an open minded long-form conversation with individuals identified for their distinguished and careers Orlando consequential life experience they said each guest is thoroughly researched offered freedom of expression and they hear a range of Voices not just those Stephen and a doac necessarily agree with that said the BBC review a limited proportion of guests out of nearly 400 broadcast to date for BBC News reporter did Annalise 15 episodes and an average of 14 harmful claims per episode that like to bring into Simmons whose investigative researcher at the Institute for Strategic dialogue also features in the BBC's hello Cecile hello.

We've just mentioned the BBC story about Steve Allen podcast but your research Focuses on health and wellness information on a range of online platforms, what is the

With this information in this context.

What's the risk? I think I think the pandemic has really been a Turning Point for the circulation of health information and helpful has been around for a long time, but what the Legacy of the pandemic is is basically mistrust of institutions and we have also seen that the lot of content creators have moved to health and wellness and distrust of institutions to monetize unverified claims and this content performs really well online so I'm missing formative health claims are amplified the algorithms once people start clicking on them that take him to more extreme versions of it and it says and what's your sense of how responsible for content creators or podcast is art that audiences.

I mean.

I think that especially if you have a big platform.

Platform and significant research is becoming difficult to say that you shouldn't be held accountable through the potential harms that my derived from people in your listening to what's on your podcast or what's on your social media channels and actually acting on some of the health and devices provided.

I'm thinking of people giving medical treatment going against medical recommendations, which potentially life-threatening and is that happening? I think it is absolutely yes, I have been there has been reporting of such cases health.

I'm inside be multiple reports about the prevalence of health information online that have been selfie tragic cases of people not following health advice.

We also saw it during covid how much misinformation impacted vaccine uptake so we absolutely seeing the offline consequences of help us information, so what you're telling us.

Is it is popular we we know.

Popular this kind of contact list of health and wellness content just laid out.

It's big business.

It is absolutely big business.

I'm in the world Industries a trillion-dollar industry and it has been around for the best part of 15 years that isn't really knew the what is new is really this otherwise the political context where creasing Lee health misinformation connect with other forms of political discourse, so we're seeing intersections between wellness and you know broader political conspiracy theory is we're seeing intersections with misogynistic discourse online and so there has been a shift towards a greater politicisation of wellness content that we didn't see before the so much where it was your wellness individual listing of why why why is it so I think because

Wellness influencers have the wellness world is really can focus on ideas of self-realization bodily autonomy which were connected with the fear of vaccine during the pandemic if you've got the community.

That's built around the idea of sovereignty and autonomy you can really latch on easily lead to widespread fears about taxes you would you know might be Justified and I also think that the wellness world is fundamentally anti-establishment and auntie institutions which in today's gold gun dreams that you are you've got a receptive audiences stay with us.

Of course is a whole range of wellness content that's available to consumers the perspective of someone who makes her own Dr Megan Rossi is a dietitian nutritionist and author on top of that her research is based at King's College London she's also known as the gut health doctor.

Slime with over half a million followers on Instagram thank you very much indeed for joining us on the media, show am why do you think that there is such an appetite for content around gut health around nutrition around the type of editorial areas that you get into who doesn't want to live longer happier healthier write the self is so interesting and I think as we just had I think ovid met people maybe appreciate the health of the more know that it can be really fragile.

So they went empower themselves with the latest information.

So they can get live longer feel better.

I think that's really entitlement of it and some of your videos of builders MythBusters your mythbusting and you're focused on health fads and trends.

I wonder if you see that is a role that you're trying to perform to counter wellness content out there that perhaps is not rooted in evidence.

He look absolutely I mean I don't do social media for fun.

Play workers at Kings Head as you mentioned and I'm also a practising clinician, so I'm a registered dietitian and I think it's really the damage of this misinformation.

I've seen in clinical practice, but me to do more science communication that led me to social media to help combat out there because I really can be so damaging and I'm really intelligent people go on the craziest diet because they heard that it was really good for the gut health which you know he knows the scientific Discovery that's changing you know what it means to be human and a natural flag is the opposite of what will running in the world about what's good for the gas.

They coming out things like whole grains and legumes because you know some podcast hold on that's the best thing for that house and it really goes against and all of the front of the evidence so it's kind of that passion made me to be like you know I can't just do my roots have a research and going to create the research.

I need help that translation but this sometimes attention between your work as a scientist within academia, where I'm at.

You have more space to unpack the nuances of these subjects than you do creating short form content for social media other video platforms do sometimes when you're making your content, thank goodness.

I don't get the detail in that.

I need to yeah absolutely there's always that pull then as we've heard.

It's the the clickbait really attract that algorithm.

So if you want the biggest range then obviously going headlines, but you know it as a as a scientist and as a registered dietitian.

I had this personal responsibility write that even if I know I'm going to get more engagement on post if there isn't any evidence behind this new claim if it's just as one small studying and mouth you know model or if it's a really small human study and it hasn't been translated or replicated then as a responsible.

I'm not going to go and do a social media post on that I'm going to wait to make sure she got a body of Evidence and then make sure that's translated you.

No time-waster.

It still feels really new and cutting Edge

But not jumping on these clickbait sort of our content and you'll have heard Cecile describing the the wellness content Arena I wonder if you recognise what who is describing that there are elements of it's certainly where there is overlap with other areas of misinformation.

Look absolutely all feeds in together and you know you do it's the soffit performs the best and I heard that all you know people who are online really do look at who's giving the information because just because they're professor doesn't mean I know any food or nutrition right.

They could be a professor in geography or religious the really looking at the credentials and making sure that they are accountable for what they're saying and I think that's the risk lot of conditions.

Sorry.

I influences that are not accountable you know it like if I said something that was correct.

I lose my licence to practise as a clinician so I think we really need to investigate who we getting this.

Even if they sound really convincing I had do my research for thanks Megan I'd like to talk about the checks and balances in place.

It would not Hilton who's I've now remember.

I thought I know it's product.

I know it is apologies.

I did know that I suddenly had a little moment of being scared anyway.

What do you see as the issue here Stephen Barlow isn't really an outlet in the sense that there are loads of people on podcast on YouTube tiktok etc.

Who are pushing this order of Miss information if you want to find covid vaccine misinformation.

You will find it and there are a cause of internet users are very susceptible to but they will look it out pro symbolic is just the most mainstream manifestation of this and someone whose reputation has been built up.

I think by organisations like the BBC who had a dragon.

Who published dover.to on iPlayer on BBC sounds an agreement with him? So he's been offered this sort of sense of reputation by big corporations that I think most is people who are the fringes of this discourse.

Don't get I think that the real issue.

Here is about the fact that in the past.

It was journalist to would do these sorts of programs and now it's a much wider are much more open to all sorts of different people is it about that kind of reggae? What is it? I think it's very talented III you must be on face but he's not his podcasts are incredibly credulous about a lot of the claims that amazing allows people to talk at my doesn't push back and he has said subscribe to this BBC World Service investigation that he he wants me an open forum Friday as he doesn't want to you know by didacticas listeners about what they shouldn't what's wrong with that then you have to hold the ideas Pinterest

Because that's the end of the journalistic.

You know necessity in and I think that the project has been understaffed in terms of researchers and the producers in terms of having support Steven Bartlett who is not bi training quite strongly in two areas where you have to be really on your brief you can't just do it interview about science or medicine without really knowing the material and that's where you get into this thing where you allow people so box you can sometimes the people who consume wellness content for entertainment rather Street Medical John Lennon is there a line there or what how do you perceive something I see the stuff has been put out on Instagram and tiktok.

Lot of that sort of stuff as well vs.

Is basically Gloucester body dysmorphia, and you know a lot of stuff that's really damaged and I think we've already had conversations about the impact the Instagram house on Body Image nor that's awesome.

Lot as well.

Just concerned.

It's just another it's

This Body Image and people listening.

I don't necessarily need or want every single piece of audio content that I can see you might want it in some parts of the content.

They consume since when does journalistic reggae have an automatic place in any discussion on anything factual that people listen to when it's when it's published on BBC iPlayer when it's on BBC sounds, then it should be held to the same standards that any content been put out by the BBC as help to buy do you think that the UK's number one podcast podcast it's getting a billion views should Aspire have some sort of journalistic integrity.

I would think that would be coming and what kind of regulation is there then you mention the BBC they had a 12-month deal to distribute diary of a CEO on iPlayer which lasted until May 2020 Pat form.

Would it be regulated by Ofcom like the rest of the museums that as a result I would imagine that the video content being published on iPlayer would it be subject to Ofcom

Podcasting generally is very lightly regulated mainly self-regulation through you know initiatives like this this investigation through the fact that other forms of advertisers will be a bit nervous about about taking on a podcast with such exactly.

Do you want to happen? Do you want all podcast to fall under a regulator like I've gone crazy to suggest that podcast which have now moved right into the mainstream of the media and we're talking about podcast that are getting bigger listener ships active listenership.

The many radio stations are should be subject to some sort of Ofcom or if not commit self-regulation.

I don't think it's particularly realistic and I don't think that a regulator with necessarily have the teeth to tackle this come on to talk about YouTube and tiktok with jd.

Sport your next.

There.

Are there are bigger issues in the in the multimedia digital landscape then.

And listening to this Cecile Simmons from the Institute for Strategic dialogue with focused at the moment in our conversation with near gone podcast but of course wellness content appears in many podcast a in lots of other platforms to where do you see it thriving being most successful.

I mean this is particularly successful on platforms that usual platforms that rely on video images where you can also I suppose it's better signs your content so Instagram and tiktok which we have multiple studies have shown I think that that's contender works well on podcast as well.

Especially your sudden type of copper of Diary of a CEO as a manifestation of which is these top podcast they combine no advice on business a little bit of politics but also a lot health.

Examples like you know the Joe Rogan podcast in the US and that's a bit of a winning formula for engagement and success because you're touching on a range of topics and reaching wider audiences and just found this subject Dr Megan Rossi we were speaking to a little while ago.

Would you like your videos to be regulated in some way do you think that the kind of content you produce doesn't just need your figure but requires someone else checking that saying stands on actually.

Do it when it comes to health advice.

I think because we know it can be so damaging and you know you're gonna people.

See you and Dr you know professor and nutritional advice then actually they really do by into that's why I feel like that.

Need to be some sort of regulation and because I am a you know register edition.

I do have that out online that was an accurate then.

I would lose my licence to practise as a dietitian so I do have that regulation both feel like everyone who is giving or who is giving any sun Telford

Really it does need to be nice because I can do damage and I and I feel like it's not just about entertainment when it comes to help I get to talk about people's lives.

Thanks so much talk to Megan Rossi also Cecile Simmons that Hilton you're staying with us at Nick Hilton from Porto forward to our next item because we can talk further about videos but this time particularly about stop because if you think about how many videos are posted on tiktok winning video of the year for the UK and Ireland is no mean feat but that is what our next guest has done comedians woman and Mark cooper-jones also known on YouTube and tiktok as a madman as the name suggests they make videos about maps and they are very popular hear some of the video that won the award don't know how to say something properly simply because they're from a different country could never reasonably be expected to predict the local pronunciation that contradicts the basic rules of language created the perfect travel agents itinerary for Mexico

Humiliation across the country Gotham Gorton followed by stopping cuan Mor Comber before finishing up in Elswick Newcastle University most doors that we didn't know until we started doing the research for that video the interesting thing was we put that video out on YouTube and of course because it's YouTube there are loads of comments appearing underneath in the comment section and thankfully, nobody said that we got any of the plants and pick you up.

No, but worse than that there were loads of people saying this one.

You shouldn't talk about haisbro.

You should have talked about it all the other ones that we missed two follow-up video waiting to be made right.

Yeah, it's the paradox of releasing a video on YouTube is the best way to do research for a topic.

Make a video about it put on YouTube and then wait for all the corrections to come in the comment section underneath.

So you are one half of the mat, then I guess the place.

We should start is where did the two of you come across the idea or decide to get behind the idea that you were going to make viral videos about Maps search Mark cooper-jones on the Comedy Circus be both comedians as a background and we both an interesting geography and Maths and we thought let's do something together and we were wondering whether it should be a maybe a live show and then we decided let's make it a video series and you know we can put it on this video sharing website youtube.com and maybe if you are lucky it could lead to a job in so-called proper TV now that didn't happen, but instead very slowly gradually the videos that we were making on YouTube Just for ourselves our own entertainment started doing really well, and they've now become a means to an end and a lot of people in the comment section saying why don't you put this on TV when you rather be on TV and the answer is these days especially with TV being whatever?

We're quite happy.

We are we've got a very dedicated audience and steady stream of income Mendoza does about things that you don't really get guaranteed with TV anymore and how do you settle on what to focus on do you get a large atlas out you open up Google Maps at anything? Where do we go next it depends sometimes we'll find another come across the map in.

I just by scrolling through this is looking on Google Maps and sometimes.

We'll see the map and that looks interesting that looks like something we could turn into a funny story and then sometimes it's the other way round sometimes we come up with a story that we know we could fill with funny sketches and make it entertaining and a map that fits the story because in many ways you can tell almost any story using a map of nappies.

Just like a one-dimensional through which you can see almost any story and anyone have seen them know there's a decent of action that goes in there quite long as a lot happening.

I wonder how many of you are involved in making them and how long they take it's mostly just the two of us and sometimes my wife out with the filming but because it's YouTube and not TV

This amazing luxury that we can take as long as we decide to make an episode so we can decide that you know this episode of this one deserves our attention that spent a good 3 months making sure that we edit let's do loads of revisions on the Script until I happy with it and that something that I think makes us a little bit unusual on YouTube is that we tend to upload maybe 4 or 5 times a year maximum and a lot of people especially on you on we now as well people are uploading several times a week and we're not able to catch up with that that is quite tiring.

There is not let it burn out where you going to carry on forever YouTube obviously if he says your main platform and you prefer it is eating that you don't want to get into TV how does it compare to TV do you think in terms of your editorial freedom and buses on YouTube and because YouTube has like I know you can have a stable income you can have a large audience The Prestige of TV is gone and what you get with TV that you don't get on YouTube is many layers of management that have to approve everything and you're restricted also in.

Something you might have to fit into a slot which means it has to be a certain length of time it has to take a certain number of boxes and almost none of the applies on YouTube apart from you're not allowed to say things but might put off your sponsors and in general.

There's very little that we could put in a video that might put people off so if I could be the best thing about YouTube and also no TiK ToK is that where our own buses? Are you able to make a lot of money out of it out of it? Is it a good live tennis four ways that you can make money on YouTube video so one of them? Is you know when you click on a YouTube video on yourself an advert that says you may skip this in 5 seconds for each one of those we make 0.0401 times, but we're also able to do sponsorship so halfway through a video will cut to a funny sketch that advertising your products such as a VPN on educational course we also have patreon the if people like what we do.

They can subscribe on a monthly basis and is also a match still we can buy t-shirts and mugs and badges and someone but we were just talking about the lack of oversight podcast term do you work?

That do you think there should be more oversight over you a little I mean when we started in the olden days.

We didn't have as many of you as we weren't so concerned as we are now about fact-checking but we discovered that people are just watching that men for entertainment there also we heard there's a lot of geography teacher showing in their schools, so well under more pressure than usual to make sure they're not only do we check out but that we show where we got a fax from the jacket, but I think that doesn't apply to everything on YouTube because there are some people making comedy sketches that necessarily about education and they like really one-half of the match man.

Thank you very much and Nicholson still with us co-founder of the brush and Company Padova but also the Independence chief tv critic and some of what we hearing from J ring reminds me of any number of conversations.

We had on the media show about Alpha some social media video platforms on a route onto the TV there a destination fully first destination in their own right now.

Yeah absolutely I've been reviewing all of their Christmas schedule and I

Confidently say there's nothing better than that men on this Christmas like gather your children around the computer this ago.

Thank you very much and and so there are individuals or duo doing very well content creators on YouTube and other video platforms to but the last few days.

We've seen ITV say it's also going to start putting more of its programming on YouTube how do you assess that in terms of its significance? I think it's absolutely make sense.

I mean I mean Channel 4 already done a similar arrangement with YouTube to partnerships arrangement ITV's following in their footsteps.

I think ITV if you look at the Christmas schedule.

They have to submit applicated the kind of contesting.

There is gonna prime-time slot on Christmas Eve that sort of thing I believe on Christmas Eve they're showing at TV show about tiktok videos which shows going to walk there what they think is the core audience littlest so I think it makes sense for them and it makes sense the YouTube who would like to get more long form content on their sites of a people stay on it for longer.

Thank you very much indeed.

Turn quickly data development on a story with covered on the media show in recent weeks because the observer Newspaper has have been sold to tortoise Media yes, we are James Harding the form of times over and BBC head of news.

You found a tortoise on the media show explain his plans to keep the print edition and put a digital Observer behind a paywall as we also discussed on the media show server and Guardian journalist went on these plans the outgoing editor Paul Webster also join us on the media show to discuss the opposition to this plan, but that has not been successful because the Scott trust and Guardian Media Group have signed this deal with tortoise in the garden.

It's putting in 5 million and it now has a 9% stake in tortoise Media but there are still outstanding questions not least this move guarantee the survival of the world's oldest Sunday newspaper opponents Fiat the Investment isn't enough but other said they've never was being run down inside the Guardian so there was a

I hope they have changed James Harden clearly thinks he can just putting the paper on a better fitting but we don't yet know how many journalists how many of the star column is will move to the new venture Philippa Perry was on the picket line with her husband Grayson Perry restaurant critic Jay Rayner has already gone to the Financial Times but said he was against the plans of service of will transfer automatically unless they take redundancy, but it is interesting is it was because we now in a situation potentially wave with a 7-day guardian digital operation that will be potentially competing will be competing with daughter is Observer with the Scott Trust involving both.

It is very interesting but I think as you just rung us through there are still even though this deal has gone through now.

There are still so many questions about what is Harding and Tortoise are actually going to do with the Observer what's it going to look like on a Sunday what's it going to look like every day for the people who are subscribing digitally in until we see in front of us the time.

Journalism the type of branding and positioning in the market that James Harding and his colleagues plan for the Observer it's quite hard to judge the degree to which it will be a direct competitor with the Guardian but there's no concerns.

That's what it could be absolutely right and I think he would probably argue that this is you know another opportunity for Liverpool John Lennon to flourish, so let's see we will see now those of you listening may have been the Donald Trump has been named Time Magazine person of the year for a second time time has been doing this since 1927 and whenever it makes its announcement it gets more attention so we want the dig into how exactly the person of the year works and we're going to do that with Sam Jacobs the perfect person because he is editor-in-chief of Time Magazine welcome sounds the media show thank you for having us publication many people will have heard of you, but some of our audiences might not have just introduced time to people who might be unfamiliar with it.

I'm is a global publication based in the United States were founded in 1924 to celebrate 100th birthday 120000000 around the world ok and trump Donald Trump why have you chosen him as your person of the year this year of selecting the one person of the year is no easy task of this year.

I had it was easier than others American politics Theory ordered.

The American presidency marshal historical that very few of the quote smart people would have expected say 3 years ago after the direction of the United States capitol when he was building new coalitions and really re-ordering American politics that I said who else was on the list.

Do you everyone we look at lots of people we have been the base inside the company the news from get-together out every September and we fight and we argue we set up different teams people go out and Report different.

Ultimately we have a small conversation on a small group that tries to make this decision and did everyone agree.

What's the criteria to be person of the year because I suppose you might assume.

It's about someone who's popular that they're doing good things is it an endorsement? It's not an endorsement nor is it in honour or in a war despite with those who received it may concern Henry Lucy started Time Magazine over 100 years ago said he didn't want the person of the year or as it was called then of course man of the year to go to someone for a good this was not meant to be a heroic was not meant to say you know well done this meant to focus on the person who had the greatest impact on the news for better or for worse in the previous 12-months and I don't think is a controversial thing to say Donald Trump is a divisive figure many politicians are how heated was the discussion about whether to name him your purse.

Have to be honest we had more difficult to this last year.

We name Taylor Swift personally, I think that difficult because she said outside of I think what many people see as influence looks like in that case picking her was really an argument about what influenced looks like in the 21st Century personal Trump is something like the 10th United States president to be recognised person squirrelly in our historical introduction to understanding about power and Influence look like and tell us about the image that you used on the cover for the Donald Trump Edition how did you choose? What is the photograph taken by the photographer born in Greece from the United Kingdom works at in York today? What time is photographed and he would say more than anyone else in the world is taking pictures of the covers of time more than 20 times he photographed Latimer Putin for person of the year in 2007 for time.

I think we took this image.

November 27th thanks giving week in the United States at Donald Trump's miralago club and private home.

I think it speaks to his power to influence a really strong photograph.

That's the the photograph in the Studio with Katie but you also interviewed Donald Trump in connection doing being named person of because of the number of things that he says which aren't true on a regular basis.

How do you approach an interview with that nature? What is interesting Donald Trump has spent more time on the record with time then I think any other publication in the world over the last year so familiar with speaking with him.

We talk to his team all the time and when we do an interview like this with a world leader we after an analysis that says what inside of the transcript and we publish the full transcript online so anyone can see what the conversation is what Struan what's not we going to be Justified in earlier this year did the

Playing as well as Benjamin and I'm interesting when we come back to the the choice of person of the year in terms of your business times business, how important is this moment it's of editorial decision, but I imagine there's a huge Dr dimension and sales dimensions this does it driver more interesting time than anything else you do one of probably one or the key moments when the world stops and pays attention to what time is doing and what the decisions are that we are making each year a mention Taylor Swift last year that magazine was the best selling magazine that I'm over 20-years.

This is not a hero in which we are selling more in your magazine.

So it speaks to the fact that people are incredibly interested in this decision.

We've seen sale spike across this issue, and then also use it to tell our stories.

We named Elton John sir Elton John the icon of the Year Caitlin Clark the American basketball player athlete of the year and we also ordered a CEO of the release of so it's a change for us.

Lots of stories and bring them inside the person of the year and a price is it always the biggest selling edition of time it's certainly the biggest news moment for us.

We had over 500 broadcast mentions of people talking about this and you turn on the television in the United States the week after renaming.

It's a constant source of conversation in the bed and the Amazing to see this project is nearly a century old still have such resonance in create such an emotional response and people this edition of the media shown in this interview.

Just give us a quick history lesson time come up with this in part as a as a device to generate interested at a slow time of the year but maybe Christmas when people aren't necessarily buying lots of things with lots of factual content in the story that this was a maked a mulligan that the Editors of time in 1927 did not manage to put the

Charles Lindbergh on the cover that year and said they got together and they said why don't we name him man of the year at the end of this year and that is how it all if I was born was an opportunity to take advantage of charismatic individual on the cover that they had overlooked in the previous 12-months.

Thanks for making time for telling us all about that Sam Jacobs editor-in-chief from Time Magazine in case you have you got 45 seconds and going to use some of those to ask Jay Foreman here, what your next match video is on what we don't know at the moment because we're busy working on some other projects in between and it might be the first time you do a match video with a little time to spare so I can't say for the moment, but stay tuned I will be my next week.

Not always British Maps know so we got most of us are in the UK but we do try it up and we're trying to get map some all different sorts of parts that will be have one recently all about the why the US why it's got the name America people watching I'm going to have done.

Thank you so much Jay Foreman

Well, time is up next Wednesday is Christmas day.

That's not a big surprise.

There's no Media show but we will be back on New Year's Day we will thank you very much for listening bye-bye.