Read this: China's AI win, transparency in family courts, refugee life close up

Hello, I'm Greg Jenner I'm the host of your dad's me where the best names in comedy and history join me to learn about and laugh at the past.

You are a traitor in the new series will mean I think about dinner time travel someone who's like almost a glitch into the causes of the civil wars in the 1600s in England at this period as people can't get on the housing ladder Sounds Familiar for the arts and crafts music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week, the wrong is of Chinese tag and how it fits into Western media in the lives of people here in the UK and elsewhere reporting rules for family courts are changing will hear from the UK's only full-time family courts reporter the producer behind a provocative new Channel 4 series on.

Is also here the show challenges participants to take on the journey from Somalia and Syria all the way to the UK also we talked about the growth of esports a number of times on the pier show no not quite sure this fit that description but the Excel world championships are available to watch on YouTube that happened last week.

Yes, that's Excel as in spreadsheet and one journalist who attended one of these events will tell us how this kind of niche content is actually finding an Audience with a detailed look at China technology.

There are a number of dimensions to this including the high-impact arrival of a Chinese made artificial intelligence app called deep sea and the story of significant for a rafter reasons deep sequenced the top of downloads in the US with told that we can't confirm.

It's cost a lot less developed than other AI chatbots including those coming from the US so it's a challenge to the USD

It also up the possibility of a proliferation of different chatbots.

There are other things to its open-source meaning we can all see and use the code.

That's behind it.

It's also editing sponsors.

Such as about events like cannon square, which the Chinese authorities don't want people reading about and there are other aspects besides.

Will that start with sharing a farm E-I-E-I-O reporter at Bloomberg welcome shireen.

Thanks for having me you're very welcome and what happened the Chinese AI startup that until recently had a pretty low profile especially to those in the west and released a new AI model earlier this month that was surprisingly good says it is with some of the leading US and European and I companies so we're talking about you know model.

Perform as well or better on evaluations and things like math and general knowledge compared to the technology of companies like open AI so this was a game changer set up a frenzy both excited for a panic about how this could challenge Western technology as it had this huge impact this week people listening and watching will probably be aware of that but what did you make of the way? It was covered in the media? I think that you know it for me and you're in San Francisco is it I report her.

I'm paying very close attention to products from all over the world start with a little bit less surprising maybe something right inside you I had heard about tipsy.

I knew that the models were getting better and better and it was I think I have an aha moment for the rest of the world of how quickly Chinese tag is catching up and I think we sort of sore and this be the first time that it was like a reality check for major Media in the US in Europe in the UK to say yes.

Serious competition here but has there been doing enough scepticism? What deep sea claims? It's done.

I'm in Tech founder pull my lucky told Fox News useful idiots in the US Media have the Chinese propaganda about this story.

Yes, because obviously we're dealing with a very different Media landscape in China there.

Still lot of mystery about gypsy people are basically it's course how it was trained how much or whether it has taken materials from us tech companies and western tech companies in challenge me and my colleagues recently reported that we know pursources that Microsoft and I are investigating if improperly accessed ibapi of opening hours technology meaning to deep sea Explorer trait data that could be against opening hours terms of service and they have

Ok, so you said that has been getting his nose reporting about about deep sea in that way.

What about the anxiety around it.

Does it stem or how much does it stand from an AI bubble that has always been growing for some time in supporters the dominating question about AI is are we in a bubble and I think that people are sorting office for waiting for this moment when we might see the eyeball first and some people left to think that the deep-sea could be that.

I don't know if if I think it is too soon to say we did see a stock prices fall in the tack market.

We saw a drastic decreases in the NASDAQ etc.

But already someone that's rebounding and I think the question will be is gypsy.

Truly as good as it claims to be or is it costing more than they say to

Technology R&D meaning more than they're letting on US technology, please do stay with us, but I want to bring in Catherine hello who's ft greater China correspondent who is also going to hear about the impact chinese takeout be having on Taiwan in the moment and we talked about reporting on this story in the UK and Europe but when it comes to deepseeker welcome to the media show how is it being talked about in China this week?

Hi yeah, thanks for having me so in China I think this happened a moment of Pride and joy and vindication I hear from friends in China that travelling for the lunar New Year holiday that everyone around them is talking about this and that information to the media storage and drop and the Chinese Media have jumped on the story and the half of the stress that this success shows that trying to be stopped this connection has been made to the US efforts to to restrain China's modernisation effort and competition with us, so a lot of people are picking that up and seeing this as proof that the effort will fail.

There's also people talking about how this shows how smart the Chinese are and that China has loads and loads of really really capable engineers and and all sorts of different sentiment data for the moment.

Thank you very much, but do stay with us because all of the issues that you're describing a happening in the context of the current uncertainty around tiktok in particular in the US tiktok has links to China is parent company bytedance is Chinese and as we discussed before on the media show a ban in the EU has been temporarily halted and it's not clear.

What will happen next but the reason for the band which had bipartisan support in Washington was really to fault security concerns about how my personal data might be used and then concerns around the influence that picked up my hair on shaping discourse around certain subjects.

Let's understand that further with Kieran Martin

Adults with university's school of government and former head of cyber Security UK intelligence agency GCHQ professor Martin thank you very much for joining us that start with a broad question to what degree do you think the Chinese technology that we've reference so far in the program does pose a security threat to Western democracies Chinese knowledge as we've been hearing from the experts is a vast array of different activities hardware software different products and services and strategically what's been going on indeed a new model from a much better known Chinese from Alibaba of this come out today too much fun fair in the Chinese New Year is much more strategically significant for the future of you have the balance between us and china than tiktok which at the end of the day however important that may be however popular is a social media app and not really on a par with the balance.

I was going to hearing from Catherine I think one of the big implications from tiktok is what it means us has realised it's been a tech resource China for some time and broadly speaking is trying to speed itself up and slow down with sanctions and one of the big uncertainties about deepseeker.

Is is this because they got rang the sanctions had stopped now.

They bought chips in some way or do they develop themselves? We don't really know the answer to that and it's profoundly important as there an effective cheated or they've done at themselves that really matters and just explain why chips actually have those chips is so important to both countries and other countries as they compete to create the most effective and accessible AI advanced chips.

Essentially like the blood of a I know the ones that will be able to process them.

They are the thing that AI will depend on for the effectiveness.

You could not build something like deep sleep without.

Very advanced chips.

You can't move onto the next models you can't do any of this stuff without access to chips so the US have used the awesome power of its legal system and export controls for at least 5 years now most notably not under President Trump under president Biden in a systematic way to the Knight Rider access to an effective.

I think Catherine was saying I'm staying in effect to stop everything we've seen this week and made your demonstration of Chinese power, but that's what we seen this week however Mercury the details of how I can't ask so however, they got the chips.

They do have the chips.

They're creating a variety of products and what about the argument that we heard in Washington and number of times that American consumers by using these different Chinese tech offerings are in some way compromising compromising America because of the amount of data that China may be able to access a lot in that and it's a legitimate concern of the Americans and all the West and again.

Slightly different in deepseeker if you put in sensitive information into an AI model if you live with into the device it will get a lot of data and it seems that the six terms of service are very permissive and what it well collecting that blowback to we wanna seems to the Chinese state 11 developer.

Very significant intelligence picture tick tock.

I think there are weak arguments for and stronger arguments for banning the week argument is data security the data security model for social Media apps is so broken everywhere in the world that if your banned tiktok or forward to having it is the digital want to see a wash with Western personal data if the Chinese wanted.

I'll get it some other way.

There is identity in Washington particular to ban Chinese call Jane go home not do anything else that doesn't work for data security the stronger argument and is about the way in which tiktok influencers discourse and influences public attitude.

Tassimo want to come in and isskyros superb piece to the Times about perhaps and suspicions of subtle influencing of Taiwanese particularly useful opinion and I think if you look at the Broad sweep of history and you think about the questions that won't be asking 100 years time at the time of great tension and rivalry between the US LED western China is it really a good idea 407 Americans have one of the primary sources of news and entertainment controlled by an algorithm that you don't really know how it how it works.

That's not going to perpetrate a massive deception.

It's not going to persuade them about the American people to become pro Chinese when you think about how users curated information is created it.

Really is something that I think is of concern much more so than data security which is a much problem.

I won't go away whatever happens to tick tock OK when you're absolutely right.

I do want to bring in Catherine Helen out from the ft.

Because you're in terms of a case study of how the influence of China via tiktok.

Your genius in Taiwan where as Karen said you been looking at the potential impact of tiktok on young people's views just explain first.

What made you want to do that? Yes, so I just started discovering or I came back to Taiwan 6 years ago and I had been away for about 10 years and I discovered that young some people started speaking in ways that I had only previously heard in the Chinese mainland some pronunciations use of terms for those who are not familiar with with what I want is people here.

Speak Mandarin to but they speak differently a bit like the two germanies before I read efficacia a long history of Separation has just lead to two different use of language, so I started discovering that and then I became aware of that especially the Young

becoming heavy users of Chinese social Media apps, so I was wondering if that was connected so I started doing some round at and what was quite striking was that the the young generation here who are Under-20 I'm very very different from the youth previous generations in in Taiwan over the past 30 or 40 years in that much more open to view in China positive lights so Tower democratized or in the early 1990s after several decades of a one-party dictatorship by the Chinese nationalist party that had come over here in 1949 after lost the Chinese

It was a party that have come from China and that are imposed an ideology of Chinese nationalism in Taiwan so patient people were allowed again to have their own identity whatever they wanted and you would have young Generations that were becoming more and more and less and less Chinese identity and are you staying now what you're finding.

Are you putting his down to the shift in views by the Young in terms of the latitude to China and having a more positive attitude.

Are you saying are you putting that down to tiktok all of it, but very strong science.

I think that heavy tiktok use a huge so the school age population a primary school Junior High senior high on average half of them uses tiktok.

The signs that is even increasing and they're starting at a very young age and they watch Chinese soap opera something to Chinese TV shows that that something nobody previously in Taiwan had any interest so it's soft power if you like has it gone down then? This is concerned around Chinese influence has it gone down in Taiwan it's a partisan issue, because the former ruling party is still here.

It's now apart from the democracy is there is a part of the political that believes is still in a kind of Chinese identity.

They don't want to be part of the People's Republic of China but they still believe some kind of Chinese nation of those people think it's over done to to panic about tiktok, but then the ruling party people who want.

Time of independence are very very worried about their same.

They are the ruling party basically fear that they are using that they are losing the young generation and that could change the entire political landscape.

Yeah, it could basically mean that people are no longer will no longer be wary about China and and keep in mind that the people Republic of China has a standing threat to invade Taiwan if Taiwan doesn't at some point agree to unify with it.

So is this conspiracy or is it just more likely to be around the fact that people like watching those shows there out there.

It's cosmopolitan cosmopolitanism in Action if you like well.

It's not in a sense that these young people because of the Shared language and up consuming almost only Chinese content of course they can they can watch?

They want on tiktok in theory, but the way this app works is also that the user's preferences do not shape of the timeline and the content flow as much as on on some other social media apps on the the tiktok algorithm quite strong push function, so you will end up maybe if your 14-year old Chinese girl you went you like learning dances and and like listening to some songs but after a few days.

You start receiving content about how he is inferior to Chinese Democracy for example and a wee in our research for this piece.

We have lots of examples like that researchers started setting up.

After just a few days.

They discovered that some soft political content was being pushed to them so I think it's a little more than just conspiracy and if we can bring Kieran back in here as you listen to that example that Katherine is outlining and the work that's been done to understand.

What is being pushed towards users by tiktok algorithm? How can you measure the next stage the influence that content coming through tiktok maid of honour consumer because while it may feel logical to say it out loud that well if we watch things on social media.

It will influences.

How is a in an academic environment you go around actually measuring.

I think it's profoundly difficult borderline impossible.

We've been struggling with this type of thing for a decade now even though even with different forms of cyber operations you go back to.

Next presidential election of 2016 were the Russian States and established fact hacked into Hillary Clinton's emails and some of those of her staff and the democratic party the Easter more and and that caused a huge source of stirring the us, but it's impossible to determine whether or not that influenced that was decisive in individual vouchers to break for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton back in back in in in 2016 but I think the very sort of the sowing of The Seeds of doubt it is important and the disruptive effect is important enough to achieve an impact now.

There has been some work and then we talked about castles work on Taiwan there has been some analysis, but I'm not sure how robust it is about some of the creation and gems of the israeli-palestinian conflict on tiktok which is enough to arouse suspicion, but the one thing that you can't I mean there two things are really difficult one is.

How do you actually prove y at the end consumer of the social media output has been made as they did does all sorts of things going on their life and then the thing that's completely unknowable at the moment.

Just leave it actually works because he don't tell you and is were saying in terms of accusations about tiktok corporate links to China Theo Bertram tiktok head of public policy for Europe the Middle East and Africa said it refuse any request from China to Handover data it all the BBC the suggestion that we are in any way under the thumb of the Chinese government is completely and utterly false conversation back to where we started the Deep seek this AI app AI chatbot which has become very popular very quickly sharing fry from Bloomberg was helping us understand this and Sharon in terms of the user experience of deep seek for people who haven't used a chatbot of this nature.

Can you describe what they would see if they download this app and how it compares with other AI products that are out there?

Yeah, it's similar to you if you ever use chat GPT or similar products from companies like Google which has a Gemini order and drop it has Claus it's all over the place.

Where are you typing a prompt? You can ask a question and a chat, but will give you an answer.

You know people have found that they say just in a daughter Lisa newest.

I talk to that has a personality than some of the kind of more neutral sounding Western chatbots, but more or less.

It is very similar to the experience that you have using a something like chat with you too and because the user experience and understand the significance of it being open-source.

Just explain what that means and why that makes it different to some other AI products that are out there because it's open source you can basically take the cold and you know just sent you can recreate that you can even try to host and deepseeker locally some people.

Trying to do that us tech companies and one thing I do want to play but the user experience it may be a little different.

I forgot to mention is that deep sea does show how it's thinking out loud meaning gypsy kind of tells us logic and its stock price if you know method called chain of reasoning that very similar to at leading companies in the west or doing some people like to see how deep sea Explorer showing at work or showings logic and that way Kieran as you're listening to all the details of deepsea.

Can you anticipating Americans coming up with a response either a regulatory response Ora technological development response to to what has happened this week? I think you're is number of issues the open source points.

I think with all the other research that publicly available on a I I don't think that will be regarded as the big security risk in terms of privacy issues is shireen has implied.

Download it themselves of the rainbow see if they can do that technically or actually then using a in a localised ways of the data won't go back and this is lucky person perspective.

This is a large language model is comic bomb so I don't need to worry about the sort of proliferation at risk, but I think already I mean the US Navy has already instructed.

It's at staff and officers and personnel not to use it.

I think I would imagine that most corporations already have strict rules about not installing on licence.

I chat bot already and that perfectly good business practise.

I think the data export your find in the next two weeks in months is more more government Agency saying don't use it.

Thank you very much indeed and just finally clear and I must ask you about being released by channel for this week which is found that 52% of 13 to 27 year olds in the UK that was spoken to for this survey said they would be better off.

If and this is a

Strong leader was in charge.

He does not have to bother with parliament and elections that was based on a sample of 3000 adults of all ages.

I wonder when you hear those kind of findings if you were drawn connection between that and the social media experience that particular generation is having well.

That's very profound question for it towards the end of a discussion, but I think look I think we will have to have discussions about the impact of social media on the way we conduct public discussion until that much bigger issues know the one thing that I'm really should a passionate and getting across.

We've all sorts of social tensions and western technology right now a lot of work to do with economics about the lack of opportunities for young people don't blame it.

All.

Thank you very much indeed for joiners indeed.

Thanks to all three of you that was your finger far from Bloomberg Kieran Martin formula of GCHQ and Catherine killer of DFT with us from Taiwan

Now on Friday three judges involved in the Saira Sharif case whose Names Have Been withheld to protect them will be named Janice and media organisations including the BBC had challenge Court ruling anonymising them a judge claim that naming them would risk them harm from a virtual lynch mob 10-year old Sarah was brutally tortured and murdered by father and step mother in 2023 4 years after judges in family court proceedings gave him custody despite accusations of abuse rejoin Now by Hannah Summers from the bureau of investigative journalism one of those who challenge the decision to keep the judges identity secret welcome, Hannah to the media.

So why did you bring this appeal? Just lay out? Why do you think it's important judges named so I brought this appeal at the wrong with the during this Louise Tickle and together.

We were represented by the bars to Chris Barnes and we made this challenge to the band because

Listen extraordinary order to make and it was unprecedented and we felt if it had been able to remain then it could set a dangerous precedent going forward for the cases.

It wasn't about the naming and shaming of individual judges.

It was about the principle of open Justice names of Judges are known to the public and family courts are not exempt from this humans made taking place and private.

This is to protect the identities of children not judges.

They would you have any sympathy with the claim made by the judge? But these judges these free from the family called that may be subject to a virtual lynch mob.

Yes, I have sympathy for anyone who receives abuse on social media for doing their job and I think the issue was that it was it's important to stress that the way that order came about was also problematic because what happened was this judges hadn't requested anonymity.

None of the parties had made an application for the judges to be anonymized and this happened at a hearing on the 9th of December with a high court judge, Mr Justice William to his credit made an expensive order allowing the disclosure of and permission to publish a large set of documents and these documents related to the three of historic family court proceedings relating to Sarah Sharif transparency.

This was a big win but then without warning it was just slipped at the end of the hearing that the media should not be able to name the judges and he said the Professionals such as social workers in children's guardian should remain anonymous everyone surprised he lumped in judges with that and we weren't given the chance to make submissions at that hearing or so he permitted us to make written submissions the following day.

And that's the issue of transparency with reference to that particular case but you were also here to help us understand the issue of transparency big change that's coming to the family courts in England and Wales wear during this will now be allowed to report what they see and hearing Court those changes came into effect this week following a two-year pilot.

I wonder how does changes will affect the work that you're able to do the last two years, so it's not necessarily that something it's just happened straight away, but it's been gradually creeping into the courts across England and Wales and as you mentioned.

It is the success of reporting pilot which was introduced in January 2023 to 3 quarts and then extended a year later to 19.

Probably should mention that but there's been this big change in the family courts in England and Wales this week are jealous and now allowed to report what they see and hear in court came in on Monday didn't it following a two-year transparency pilot? How will that affect you if you are as I understand it? You're the only full-time Family Court reporter in England in England how will this change impact your work well, what it means it makes it a lot easier for journalists to go and report and what the family courts and it means that judges will be able to order a transparency order.

So there's already a template setup which tells Jonas what they're entitled to receiving zinwave documents and also really crucially under these new rules and parents or members of the public involved in cases.

To speak to join lists, where is before they could have been found in contempt of court? What's been your experience of pushing for Greater transparency in family courts we know that not everyone agrees with idea, but how is that being contested? How is people push back at the things that you're asking for? I think I've been over the last 2 years when the pilot him and actually I had seen a cultural shift and it has been encouraging that after the start of the pilot that there were some judges out with the pilot area he were prepared to make transparent photos because they can see that was the direction of travel and that the president of the family division was working towards transparency across the board, but there were issues with from time to time when I went to court.

He might be treated with suspicion.

They were judges that were resistant to change and it would you know they were not part of the pilot, so we don't need to give you.

And sometimes hostility even from barristers ok, and we've got a barrister sitting out so you're not hostile introduced Emily Verity family barrister 1gc.

No because it caused this change in the family courts and how they covered it's not just affecting journalist, but everyone involved.

What are the potential concerns for your client? Just let them out and thank you for having me thanks for coming on just to to remind us the law has not changed that stays the same but the pilots are changing towards getting for used to Moor open Justice and clearly this this recent decision of the court of Appeal and the rolling out of the playlist across the whole of England and Wales which is happening this week is more of a culture shift so clients are often dealing with the most.

For moment of their lives when they come to court and the thought that those proceedings might be reported in the Press add to that anxiety and stress, so that's often what the clients are thinking about also if professionals are going to be publicised name in judgements.

That would cause them concern and that can potentially have repercussions in terms of recruitment in very difficult jobs that people doing on the ground very difficult situation that anybody who finds himself in the family called themselves and cold is it it's difficult but I mean in my experience and covering family court trying to I've had lots of people who would protect your clients Esme we want this reported.

We want this to be covered, but you can't cover it because back.

And I was doing you weren't allowed to report these cases, so there's do you see the positive so certainly and as the president has said in his guidance from August 2024 this should be the new culture of open Justice essentially they must be compelling reasons why there should be prohibitions on reporting so as we as practitioners get used to that on the ground of knowing what advice to give to clients for a feeling exceeding me anxious my way or who are keen to speak to reporters but need to know what they can and can't stay and remembering of course that these cases are dealing with children that their identity needs to be protected and that one day they may in due course be reading that judgement or reading those reports and so practitioners are trying to take great care to balance.

How long do we have? Why do we had reporting of courts for a very long time but there's a barrister looking at that and now thinking that's coming our way to probably not just what have you observed? What are your fears? What are you thinking in terms of the focus of the reporting so I practise in criminal law as well as family also I've seen that side, but of course there are reporting restrictions in Criminal proceedings as well particularly before the jury.

Have made their decision in case that could influence the carrying out of Justice but of course more publicity and it's right that members of the public should increase in confidence and understanding of what's taking place in the family courts and then they have a you know them.

They are able to engage with the issues.

And members of the public who wish to understand more of what goes on in the family courts.

Do you think you'll do anything differently as a barrister knowing that it now is all the portable so very practical issue is the time that it takes to deal with the issues of the transparency order so often the notice comes quite late the journalist might be attending even on the morning of a hearing where perhaps you've planned to deal with a few Witnesses that day it might take a couple of mornings to deal with the details of the currency order because it needs to be very carefully thought through instructions need to be taken from the client the judge needs to consider any competing issues and great can be taken in relation to identifying the child and avoiding that through Whatsapp jigsaw identification by certain factors that may lead to identification, although I think there was no evidence.

The national centre for social research evaluation that energetics identification happened as a result of the pilot that is 2 to avoid that in to raise any potential risks, so there is time that needs to be factored in potential expense because they may need to be written arguments on the issue that will have to follow if you like and if it's publicly-funded lawyers then that's probably a cost that they have to absorb themselves.

They are some of the practical practical knock-on effects of transparency orders.

Do you understand some of the concerns around them? Yeah absolutely and I've had experienced myself where it's taking time and effort an input from barristers going backwards and forwards trying to get those orders right and making sure they're done properly.

I do think so the it's

It's just part of but have to deal with if we want to make sure that this press scrutiny and accountability and that were able to cover important public interest issues, and I was going to ask you fundamental goal isn't transparency your goal is what transparency will deliver what is your hope that if this pilot is expanded and made permanent.

What do you hope? What are the benefits for Society from that happening? Well? I suppose like any journalism you hope that when you highlight failures in a system or issues or trends that it need to change an benefit the public and some of the issues that we've been looking after the bureau of investigative journalism include for example the issue of what kind of tact appearance should have with a child if they've been convicted of rape or sexual violence something else was the controversy surrounding the way the results of hair strand testing for.

Alcohol misuse presented to court and the fact that these results can you tell removal of children and another big issue that we've looked at is high judges and the courts approach domestic and that's a huge issue out of all the private law private law proceedings cases that go through the family courts each year 50 to 60% of those features of domestic abuse.

Thank you both of you for coming in and explaining the changes as their proposed that that's Hannah Summers family courts journalist with the bureau of investigative and Emily Verity barrister with 1gc and go back to where you come from go back to where you came from even is it for parts social experiment where a group of six presents? You hold your master key opposing views on immigration travel on migrant route through Africa

Is an Europe into the UK Let's Hear It for the immigration debate has become so polarised but I know that my views are just basic common sense in 10-years time is going to be full of people wearing burkas Islam will have taken over being manipulated by right-wing politicians and media.

I need to challenge these perceptions well my young from minnow films is the executive producer of the series thanks for coming in Emmett when you were picking this to Channel 4.

What was the premise at the heart of it that you were hoping they would go for already been made in Australia and many other territory is already so we were taking a format that already exist.

It was a champion by artemisia and Alice and and Madonna Benjamin or both Australian and the souls of the success of the series over there.

The chemist is essentially taking people who are anti and pro immigration out of what you would class pages of normal environment and take him to the root problem and showing them at the source so that they could have their views and challenges tested really and how did you settle on which six people to include the wrong and it carefully considered and we were looking for people who represented we saw as a cross-sectional views in the UK and I think of you think you've had the clip it.

Please use to some people may seem really extreme and until little but we spoke to a lot of people during this process and again the same coming up again and again so we were looking for people who represented that so you wouldn't agree with some people are saying it looks like you may have gone for people who have very strong opinions on one side of the

Because it might make for better television and someone who's got a more moderate position in the middle of the argument to look at these what people might as they say in certain places consider extreme views because if we don't challenge the views which obviously come from a place of maybe Fiore misunderstanding is it you push these people out the margins and you come online to axe and Twitter and you don't actually get to challenge them and this is a great way of doing that.

I didn't see it.

I don't see something that is if they are at the voice is represent a very vocal opinionated group in the UK but they also voices are shaping the political landscape.

So just don't think we can but it sounds like you're all of that last dance sounds like your referencing the people who have concerns about immigration rather than the people who are more comfortable with it, so was really the premise of the program to test their views rather than

Reviews of the other three who are more comfortable with the idea it was not just about taking my auntie and people your anti-immigration would definitely wanted of people who are promulgation mean something anything what I take away from the series.

I'm working on it was actually it's not what your communicating.

It's how you are communicating and certainly I think the people on our homework with immigration realise that maybe the way that they were speaking to or not listening to in some cases the views and opinions of people anti-immigration.

They like that actually they need to we need to figure out how we communicate better in the morning that they took out of this whole process as well and we wanted to just try and light on it and we wanted to be able to take these people out of their comfort zone in to see it in on the underground in order to be able to have these conversations because not often to be starch or rechecked people who have different views to ask you very much orphans day and night.

And it was really important that we bought the two sides together to learn from each other you actually get them to do because I know some of the weather in Somalia it feels a bit dangerous at points how much of that is constructed and how much was that just what happened explain what does happen the idea of the show was to take people on factions of the Refugee journey.

It was very very difficult simseker very simple idea.

You know but to put it into practice was very very difficult we had to figure out where we were actually able to see if we go to you can only ever be so so so fun we can have a guarantee and the people taking part cannot guarantee your safety, but we will do everything that we can they wearing bulletproof vests in a bit.

I saw it and then security weather in Somalia we were very very restricted.

You can get insurance without doing that.

I mean the insurance is also quite tricky to go places at we weren't insured to go and then.

Again work within those parameters and yes in Somalia we were bullet-proof vests.

We were armoured vehicles.

We had armoured guards for cars for 20-minutes, but it was it was actually quite tricky to be able to give I can't imagine that we wanted where is in Syria is actually a little bit less controlled than that we have they were able to be more time out the cars with people living in rocker.

They were able to just be a bit more free which I think probably gave them and much more most of experience in Somalia it was very much ok.

This is scary and dangerous and they did get to speak to you and I did get to meet people who live there but it was much more restricted.

Where's when that group then moved on to Kenya and we went to town refugee.

They were able to be even though again.

There are dangers and within refugee camps which again I think not many people realise actually that pieces of what is the postcode refugee actually quite scary places to be for these people.

Are they still the threats of oil Shabab be used as a recruitment brand so it's there are dangers there, but they were able to be a bit more and more rest and so we have mixtures of immersive experiences like that and then we have constructed slightly constructed sections, so obviously one of the big things that people talk about immigration is boat crossings, so we were we did have one group.

Did do a boat crossing which they thought they were actually going to be crossing from Lebanon obviously we can't do that.

We can pick the door.

We have safety rules and everything in place, but we wanted to give that we needed to give them as close to that experience as possible because it's the Old the impression they're doing something that they weren't.

Enjoyed it hats off to you great production values in that program, but you'll be aware that criticism around it the Steve Smith chief executive of care4calais, is he said you can't mimic the experience of water in a modern slavery to the sanitise lens of reality TV just explain why this is more than a gimmick? It's a very serious subject and I think what I want to watch attracted me to this evening was being able to look at it in a different way.

We have to engage with people with these issues.

We have to listen to the views are always going to connect with what they see as a Distance story of the Refugee or or people who they can't connect with it so important for us to humanize the people on the only way that we can do that is to take people who may have these through their Lands and then see what happens if they go on that journey for me.

Powerful if we taking someone who was already very supportive immigration doing the same thing that's what I saw the benefits that will be the views suggest you mean these as an anti immigration used was the whole point we were you thinking we're just going to take these people and we're gonna show me other side and then they going to go on the end.

They going to be pro-immigration was that was that what you were trying to do not although no, no, it's somewhat.

We wanted to do was obviously to show people what was happening on the ground.

They make their own decisions up.

Obviously want it to be it was important to have both sides.

I think like I said before I think it's really important that people understand that it's not as simple as they think the immigration debate is very very complex, so will you have anti-immigration not necessarily wrong? It's you know that's absolutely there valid with their opinions and also the experiences that they had it was really important for us to have people who have

Lived experience and had been affected by so it was that was really key for us and are you pleased with the cover so far of a Daily Mail vs.

Lent into it you've been talking about is and potentially will watch it is that is that what you wanted.

We definitely want people to watch it and like I say wee-wee the reason why we have a title like that is we want to draw people to the series and we need to be lied about and this is a way of bringing the subject.

So yes really really happy that people engage with their I think obviously the trailer it says it is quite cold and I think obviously we want that to attract bait and we want people there for them to come to the series of the back of that they still getting on yeah.

Yeah, I mean the end of the series with someone and still.

You know some members of people's bums, please play Be my own family might have extremely well.

I would consider extreme views, but you know I still get on with him and find a common ground with them and just tell us when it's 51 to watch it's on this Monday 3rd of February at 9 p.m.

On channel 4 film producer of the show.

Thank you very much for coming on the programme know if you are you listening to the media show you know we'll talk about YouTube and how it fits into the media ecosystem an awful.

Lot we talked about esports quite a lot recently we also talked about The Rising niche content sometimes called casting where content is aimed at a relatively small but passionate crowd arguably this next item this next subject.

We're going to talk about fits into all of that and it definitely comes with a grey theme tune.

Yep, you heard that right Microsoft Excel world championships happened last week needless to say all the competitors of trying to the spreadsheet pain which I believe is what the singer of the theme tune was talking about that definitely trying to avoid the spreadsheet being and we are going to talk to someone who has witnessed the Excel world champion.

It's not these ones but the ones in 2023 Robert McMillan is report at the Wall Street Journal hi Robert hi there.

Just trying to get that song out of my head now.

No chance we start with this.

Why does it exist and why is it popular well? That's a good question Excel is one of those things to me.it kind of reminds me of like a call Werner stats powering radiators of the world financial system, you know a lot of people use it it's a little bit like magic too many people myself included it better can do all these things but like it's

Mysterious what I can do and I think that many many people in the world use it in the day today George and some people really use it like they use it to the point where the world champion material and when you show up to witness the world championship, what what do you see you walking through the doors? What grade are you in at Luxor hotel and casino so you walk in a carrot top is playing there and there's all the usual Las Vegas stuff people and cowboy hats.

Can you walk in and it say it it's a typical it's actually a bit in a minute in a very normal esports Arena so it's a dark room.

Sort of massive screens on the wall.

There's a place where the audience can sit there was maybe 150 people in the audience watching Big stage baby 7 compact.

Sitting on the stage and then up in a booth there were a colour commentator people talking about this event as if it was like world wrestling championship.

I was watching some of the commentary is excellent, but just just say it absolutely clear here.

What actually are the competitors doing.

What do the excess challenges or what I have to do well.

Ok? So they do a bunch of problem-solving right.

So they might be given a bunch of say it's when I watched it one of the challenges was your a wizard and you have to make a bunch of potions and these are all the ingredients and these are they putting a percentage of the ingredients you need to do when you have calculate how to make all the potions.

It's extremely geeky but when you're watching it.

It's actually cannot hard to figure out what the problems.

Are you serious big Excel spreadsheets up on the screen and the end.

Where is a cut and pasted with the problems are you can can a try and read them and then you just you just see numbers everywhere and eventually the numbers change is Casey here.

I'm actually intrigued you sound so enthusiastic about that you went in 2023.

I can't believe you didn't go back for 2024 but anyway just give us a bit of those called Microsoft Excel world championships did Microsoft found it actually involved at all.

There was a guy from Microsoft who was there and who spoke the Lonely of the Excel community, but it's actually founded by a company that I believe this training around Excel so they get I get the biggest sponsorships and they sell products around the competition but the focus did the dirty secret of the Excel condition is that there is a day of very kind of doll training that happens at a casino.

What do the training if you want to?

You got to do the training if you want to win the prize.

I think you yeah, I didn't show up for it again.

Just until the media quickly, is it is it broadcast it's dreaming our happy gonna watch it next year you can watch it on YouTube I mean DNA plus.

It's going on now.

They have qualifiers that run all year long so you can you can it's hard to go a long time without getting your xlxl fix it thank you very much for taking us through that that's Robert McMillan from the Wall Street Journal and I've got YouTube open here in here are the 2024 finals 187000 fuse for this is a popular form of of Sport at least popular and thinking about you wrap up you've been interviewing Bill Gates of Microsoft on the program to highlight something coming up next weekend.

We get to hear it next week because I've been to Seattle to interview Bill Gates co-founder obviously of Microsoft is launching A Memoir people might have read about it all.

And he's revealing for the first time that he thinks he grew up today you be diagnosed on the autism spectrum.

There's lots in my interview.

That's worth waiting for that first starts running out on Sunday and we will then talk about the media.

Shall we talk to me about tech Bros about this information about kids and tech lots more and also I think I get a side to a man.

I don't think we've seen often publicly before my even persuade him to jump out of a window that you talk about XL or do you know whether enjoyed those championships or not? Well, maybe he's watching them.

Thank you very much to all of you listening.

Thanks, although I guess we'll have Katie's interview with Bill Gates later.

Do you remember many the subject that we cover on the media show you can find out more information about them on the BBC News website but this edition that's a timer.

Thank you for listening.

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