Read this: Future-proofing media

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We have some of the biggest hitters of UK media Channel 4.

See you and it's my own it's here after issuing a warning that the business model of the technology Giants is at odds with the safety.

Societies were here what she means by that and what she wants to do about it.

David Rhodes executive chair of Sky News group is also here after announcing a new plan Sky News saying it's approach needs a fundamental rethinking to flourish in the digital age and Jodie editor-in-chief of The Independent is also here are these been heralding it digital assessor will get into the numbers and the strategy and as well as that I've been speaking to Bill Gates about the relationship between government and big tech Microsoft I had this place that we didn't need to have an office in Washington DC and I can't listen this amazing.

We have a country where you can have a company that isn't involved in politics at all.

I did that longer than shut up and came to regret it will be more of that interview and Kate is going to tell us about the practicalities of conducting it Saturday and we're sitting here with as I said these three big hitters welcome to you.

Of course got a lot to get through from Media business models to media regulation to changing audience habits and how tech and media interact but before that some of you listening may have seen the early early announce live on Sky News that today would be her last day after 36 years as a presenter there David Rose from Sky newses with David people tend not to finish on a Wednesday what happened was she chose today because actually today is our anniversary of sorts today is 36 years of service and play was one of our original presenters and so in that way.

It was feeling because she was here the start 1989.

When did you find out today would be the day you know can I have dialog over recent months since this past or them as I mentioned been here for 36 years only about the last 5 of those.

Turn the breakfast programme so the natural time to talk about right.

What's the next assignment and I think just coming back from a holiday period which now was and December that conversation changed and she just said you know actually more been thinking about this discussion.

I really think it's time for me to retire from Sky News and adapt point it became a bit about what's right time to tell that story this anniversary presented and then is the story she told us this morning which encompasses mean on the air during the moment that was became the death of Diana Princess of Wales are being on the air in the moment that was 911.

I'm in history of service history of history or that period of those more than three decades and I wonder and I don't mean this with specific reference to Kay Burley weather news.

Is such as you at Sky News are having to navigate some of your most high-profile journalists and presenters through changes and responsibility changes in the ambition of organisations and perhaps that I never to cause some Tension conversations like that.

Just come with the territory of these jobs and I feel like you're always having a conversation with creators with salad with correspondence about right.

What's what's the next challenge with things that they want to do and so it is a news organizations and actually coming in talking with you and Katy here before we talk about the experiences.

You know it's it's just the natural order of things.

You're always talking about what did David feel quite sudden.

I mean in my experience of people leaving you tend to plan ahead and have a new note 8, but you know by the previous Prime Ministers talk about them as happened with Jon Snow

Paxman this is having issues off and at the same time there was also I mean KK broke this new end in that discussion we really felt like that the most appropriate way to do this given that like I've been privileged to be here for the last almost 2 years many colleagues.

I have therefore one two decades, she's been there for more than 3 so I think when you get to the point that we got to where this is going to be her news her retirement from Sky News a lot to have they want to do it and I think he saw that this morning and she is making headlines tonight for some beers and Sundays are covering the news.

There are those occasional days.

You are the news.

I think you know today.

She's the news she's the news in the best way to stay weather, please.

Did Alex Mahon a few days ago Alex I arrived at the venue in Central London to listen to give a speech that featured new research on to them into the lives of gen z and it was a rallying cry for the government and the media to do more to help young people access reliable truthful information as the CEO of Channel 4.

Why just why you're so focused on gen Z well.

We've always had a rolls and broadcaster to focus on younger people not kids but adolescence young are not being part of our little broadcaster, and we've been doing research about them for about 5 years which actually is not long time but even in 5-years things have changed dramatically for particularly exacerbated by the impact of the pandemic which was a big interruption in their lives and the whole kind of back to work.

What does that mean the changing economic circumstances for them?

Our Generation are so really it was about what does it feel like for them in Britain today.

We know enough about how it feels and and what are the impacts that some of their ways of consuming are having on their lives and one of the things that your report says is that it sounds like it shows a generation grappling with the idea of Truth itself and it goes on the way in which gen Atlanta judge fact fiction and fantasy as they grow older may become the defining issue of our age and yours a play clips of some of those people you spoken to and that's have a listen to some of them is increasingly difficult to find news especially online that is impartial and unbiased I think it's not it's around a lot of information are completely Faithless and name that's meant to look for a father figure and there's a lot of detail in this report some of its findings include 58% of gen Z

Say they considered social media posts from Friends to be as and sometimes more trusted and established journalism.

We saw that much more likely to trust influencers than Generations maybe and 52% this generated a lot of headlines said they thought the UK would be better off if a strong leader was in charge who does not have to bother with parliament and elections eyebrows and and headlines, but I suppose more widely should we be surprised by some of these findings as I suppose Every Generation faces technological disruptions and you said yourself young have never been particularly high consumers of serious news.

I think we should be surprising concerns about the impacts having so if we just think the average British person is what's 5 hours of video a day are on top of listening to this fabulous show and for older people that is skewed towards more traditional Media but for Gen Z in the UK about 60.

That consumption is on a tick tock or meta platforms or YouTube it's really different skew in terms of where they're getting their information from their hyper-connected and I've been the whole lives are getting hundreds of a lyrics a day so they're really used to that.

They're really used to being able to search out and seek all available information however there aren't simple way is to differentiate fact from fiction and one of the impacts of far is that the concept of trust as we would not vertical hierarchical Trust is collapsing the definition of what truth is his quite hard for them to grapple with and it's having impacts on society and that's where I think we should be concerned having impact on democracy.

Is you democratic disengagement, let's go to Tesco for a dictator.

I think that's probably understandable given what they've seen from the last 10 years of different governments and they haven't seen great success of democracy.

That's understandable for everything.

Is having an increasing gender divide so what were seeing is over 40% of young men saying I think Debenhams gone fire on fire and off.

I think it's impacting me and it must be negatively impacting me even if there's no evidence of that and that's where we see people like and Jordan Peterson kind of playing to that emotion now.

That's understandable.

If you haven't seen an increase in positive pathways for young men and we're seeing that was content viewed alone particularly social content view.

It does have an impact as you tend to discuss left with other people what the perspectives are and that leads to increasing radicalisation across the board and when it comes to news one of his interesting it.

Obviously we know that all models are people sit down at 6 or 10 and 9 or whatever time it might be to watch a programme that gives you the news life is very different from many people are particularly gen Z

Way getting uses becoming individualised just explain what's happening what you mean by that I mean obviously best news at 19.

Cos that's 7 many years of age 9-10 BBC time if you are on social there's kind of four different impacts.

It's not that social wrong is that is quite difficult to differentiate there.

What is from what we might call a professional source of news, but because it's short but tends to be less detail understandable because it's a speed there tends to be less context that's quite hard for difficult or complicated things but it will be seeing the same person use as well, but what also happens is two other factors that you need to think about which is because salacious or exciting or radical or noisy or confrontational things.

Because they're exciting that means they're up the algorithm faster and that's not necessarily in line with fact.

It's more in line with fiction and fantasy then when you've you on your own do not discussing with anyone from the Independent news on our website last year.

We have 25 uses 45% of them are of the gen z and millennials that cost of of the country that young on honest on quantity of people with a different way of thinking we've all got absolutely into and think what they want.

Yes.

There is a changing in habit.

We talk about the hours, but there's up but there's also still a Hunger for that just trust and truth, they want and what are the complicated topic?

Gender sexuality politics views news reassurance mental health all these things we have found since the dependant we became a wider media company bought BuzzFeed huffpost the absolute interaction.

We have with what the youth of today.

I thinking and want under the umbrella of a brand which says what everyone wants to be which is independent we found Drive Wantage and we've seen growth.

We seen gauge moment and we've seen a real Brits being successful.

Genetically message wise and commercially and I won't get further into the strategy that underpins the success that you outline, but on your point that this genus is motivated by trusting by authenticity and by truth as I understand it Alex the Channel 4 research.

Also found the People's relationship with what they consider to be true is.

Is evolving not the same necessarily is what all the Generations may consider how they decide what is true or not true many small information hungry young people who who want to find out more that's what we see long podcasts engaging people.

That's why we see people read in conspiracy theories more than they have but we also find that having grown up in an information saturated environment young people have what we would call a flattening of trust in sauces, so where as all the people would like the BBC or newspaper differently to how they might rank and advertiser post or what friends posted on social younger people trust those things more like to eat.

So there's less differentiation of what a truly trusted sources, so that the research now.

Let's get into what you're suggesting maybe could be a response to it and Georgie and David we would like to hear your perspectives.

Alex is ideas the first point that you made was around prominence or to use the phrase that you put in your speech algorithmic problems the idea that if in the traditional TV world public service Media is giving advantage by the prominent it gets on electronic programming Guides and so on you're looking for a digital equivalent.

Just help us understand.

What that would mean in practise, so I think Britain is in a really good place.

I know that's rare thing to say but we had like strong regulation here we have off gone.

We have a government who done a lot with things like that online harms bill so when a man situation to other countries and have a very strong public service media and newspapers, so that's important to bear in mind when you think of these things but I'm saying that you know with the television which was the other technical interventions controls on it.

We put like public house in first position.

We made them put news on at a certain time.

We made sure that there was a healthy diet.

We've done nothing like that with the phone so I'm

Why don't you consider trusted news giving it some algorithmic prominent so it's easy for people to find people on when I watch it.

That's a different thing, but let's make it really easy for them to find and make sure it's in the food processors about print and Legacy newspaper companies who seen the Telegraph of you.

I were there was a huge battle over who should I not who should not on it also with levison to where they should be looking at newspaper want me all the social media social media is the future digital is the beach let's just deals specifically and another guess who's going to help us with this at the moment, but David Rhodes you are American you've had your career primarily in the American media market does the idea of the kind of intervention that Alex advocate algorithmic prominence helping certain types of content get higher prevalence than others is it something that fits easily with you or Genix right? Maybe we should just back up to 21.

Describe the ages and there are 16 and 1813 to 27 and there about 3032 percent of the UK population Genetics is people who own a Pearl Jam CD fighting physical for government or a regulator to intervene and say certain types of content deserves a different type of treatment in terms of How It's presented to the population.

I think Roger asking this question cos I think you know that I don't think so I might just asking the question ok, but yeah, I I mean I think there has been in discussion in our industry in now having an industry that industry description of the table about should we invite government to try to provide regulatory prescription for some of the trends.

Are in the work that can I have you got to keep it is part of our Sky News 20:30 p.m.

That never people watch more video just never has a lower percentage of the video viewing been to when your television and that's a industry situation that we need to address by what we do in our business and we need to go and get out of bed.

I think though so inviting in government which is news or we're supposed to be sceptical of and asking them to resolve this issue for us create some unintended consequences and I think there's also a confirmation bias problem of if we try catch some seal of approval to the things that we do and just before we can pick more of this with Alex let me just bringing all the words is professor of Internet law at the University of Essex he's also with her idea.

Central to several pieces of UK legislation governing the media Lorna welcome to the program.

I know you've been studying this question of prominence for decades originally on TV sets but now online.

How could the platforms be forced into it will there is a mechanism which dates back to the 90s and when we first started getting cable and country and out that points rules for introduced to require the providers of EPG electronic programme guide to give you prominence that that's the phrase to the BBC in public service broadcasters.

This has recently been updated in last year's m act and what we have is a framework that allows the Secretary of State to designate services which

Give prominence to Public Service Broadcasting content on a Mustafa must carry sort of basis, so it's fitted fees analysis nodding with heard from both David from Sky and Julie from the Independent why they don't want government regulation in this area, but what are the pros then as you see at Lorna are giving certain types of content greater prominence I suppose the question is if we expand what we've got a ready which is linked to the old tv environment and therefore points at Public Service Broadcasting the question is what is good about Public Service Broadcasting and do any other forms of Media have it because you don't want to be just an institutional preference.

So you can either 0.2 accuracy or impartiality or perhaps even diversity of views as

Advantages in terms of what's at the top of the feed even if people don't look at it then at least they can see it's there and at least it's maybe opening and you from quarry, but we really have to be clear about what those values are that we want to promote and in way reward with common ways to respond.

How do we decide if we would have follow your plan through who is deserving of the prom that you're advocating for Sky News at this rate.

I think is right.

There are provisions are ready for this in the media act right.

So that is about prominence in modern and new distribution environment so it's not really that we have to come up with this from scratch because the regulators already got the bottom come up within an error were public service.

How much more dominant it is now in the sources that comedian actors from 2024 and in being inactive this year, so that's been modernised thing is not from 2024 prominent for Public Service Broadcasting on new distribution methodologies whether it be smart TVs or how that would play out on YouTube is new so that's been modernised.

Yeah, I think the question for me is and the loan is point about values is what is professionally produced by people who have a street address that you can look up who are regulated in some way, what's the expansion of that past Public Service Broadcasting I would consider that newspapers and other broadcasters are in that too.

They are regulated by Ofcom and if you think of simplistically as before Twitter what it is now.

There was a blue tick system everyone recognise that my kids recognise that your kids recognise that it was simple to create a system like that.

You've got a Mark that this is from a legitimate Trust

I'm final regulatory organisation and then ensure that that's in the feed 10 people can read or not.

It's totally up to them but give the public and easy way to find out fact vs.

Fiction, so that's your second answer isn't that your second solution if you like is this trust me? It's quite Mark I suppose these days you can buy authority as a blue tick on x now.

It doesn't mean much yes, that is a reducing usage platform.

Isn't it? But I think you have to think about on the platforms that are really growing like YouTube what would like to talk or whatever the next one is what would that mean to consumers have an easy way to differentiate.

They don't right now.

I mean I can only going because I think Alex is one of the most compelling things in your survey and you just mentioned it is the degree to which this audience go forward Trust

An Advertiser ladder influencer opinion as it does what we might call Elite opinion or establishment opinion and there is bars on that page is high and so I think it begs the question.

I mean we feel that our own brand is basically R-Type mark we feel framework turning into that we want to be this premium video for a snooze room.

We want to be built the digital future here's what I think is the unintended consequence that they might be concerned about 4, maybe they should be concerned if that's the trust environment if that's how they feel about trust is the government entering in in the way the we just discussed and saying right these ones over here.

We know what it is.

When I can give us a permanent is not going to have a consequence of them.

Just thinking or you just keeping things from me.

Colette springlawn in first and then of course will give us chance to respond otherwise, what do you think about this idea trustmark? Well, I wonder how much difference it is from a form of Media self-regulation actually that has been contentious in this country the extent to which you have external bodies updating the journalistic practises of of news outlets so I wonder about that and the reason I say external bodies is that I think to be in a way believable convincing you can't have people mocking their own homework or you can't have a situation.

We've now got with with blue ticks where you can just by the status to be convincing it has to be externally verifiable so I wonder if we end up.

Back in the debate about journalistic standards, I don't think you won't government to determine who's a valid source or not.

We don't want to spend your time having use Force to spell the government but you do want to think about her regulation works with it and clearly.

I'm not suggesting that you could buy a blue tick but I do think we have to recognise that for the audience particularly for young audience Trust institutions is collapsing from the Edelman Trust barometer you no trust in the media in government and in business is a 10-year low so one has to also take into account that the audience doesn't trust all of these organisations anymore and give them the tools for quality journalism and fact-checked things so they can make up their own minds about what they choose to believe you can't ignore that that's how the Assumption of stamp which says the Independent qualifies very very happy.

Thank you very much and I think we have shown trusted.

Amazon congro numbers in traffic in reputation newsguard give us the top rating if you want someone to to mark homework or in the end of independent body in the BBC get credit card online ticket and 90% as well We Stand by our reputation and I think we have shown that quality is a grow one of the problems and there's a lot of research to back this up that when people consume content on platforms.

They are often primarily associated content with the platform rather than they will the content creators they might watch on a David colleague David videos and I saw a great video on tiktok not as for a great video from Sky and so devices that help people realise where things are coming from might not be unhealthy.

It's a fragmented complicated landscape ever think the public of stupid.

You know that when they see something with from Sky you are a big competitive as offering independent that in itself.

No, they know that's been through a process.

Of editing of choice of deliberation and trying to do a projection of other news about and I think the success is around with Widnes as we seen with some of the numbers which come from people hungry for news and clinging to brands with a trust with us, but I would just like to thank you on the word internet law at the University of Essex for giving us our insights which works at eliminating.

Thank you Lorna it was joining us here in the Studio thank you very much Andy loader here in the Studio with me and Katie see your channel for David Rhodes executive chairman of the Sky News group and Geordie Greig editor-in-chief of The Independent we can talk about Sky News as planned at the moment and if she wants to come in one final point independence great and everything and we do really well one tick tock to but I think one has to take into account that are younger audiences overwhelmed with fact not that bass content.

Action and fantasy content and that is leading to negative impacts on society the number of young man investigated for terrorism has gone up 3-fold in the last period 13% of people that are my father getting in this country are young teenagers at home alone? We have to think about making easier to distinguish programme about Alex Maiden speech and the research that channel 4 is conducted we also want to talk about what Sky News has got planned or to be more precise what David road has got planned with Sky and he's got the big new strategy.

That's been reported as you haven't seen any of the reporting.

What's the plan? Are we talked about working at Sky News 2030 and what it is is to be a premium video first Newsround it's really big for a digital future and there's aspects.of I mean premium isn't going to sound like an unusual.

For anybody in the business and I know the listeners the meteor shower not confined just two people that just another word for contact.

You can have to pay for now if you can find anywhere else you probably are more inclined to pay for that if you couldn't find it anywhere else but a lot of the Dynamics of a talking about in the information marketplace today mean and a I especially means that you can no longer.

Just move around bits of information that are already pretty much in the public domain so some of the old staple food decades girl.

You know here.

It's like the temperature.

Is it expected here's the scores in last night's fixtures like that kind of thing we needed as an industry.

I think and certainly have to turn out there as fast as we can and we need to turn into more of what we do that.

You can't find anywhere else and look some weeks.

That's our national reports and weeks.

That's of

Different it's different but just to get into the details here in terms of the type of content that people listening now might get from Sky News at the moment though primarily look at text articles on your web site or then turn on your 24-hour News Network in 5-years time.

What is the primary forms of content that your journalist will be offering people listening just stand there and then we could we try to video long form video on demand live stream of the understand what you're offering you something interesting is that just this month on the US inauguration is not completely like-for-like the statistics against linear television and digital live streaming, but you can look at the about 3 million live streams.

We had on that day.

You can look at the average minute UK television audience and you could find that in fact in the swearing-in.

We probably had we believe that we actually had more like being biased.

Lightforms then we did all over the television.

Just your freely available.

That's a moment for us most of our operation is optimised for when your television but as most of the commercial outcomes and indeed were saying even the audience on certain occasions is in these new places and not even a live case we need to start thank you.

How are serving ideas, but David just busy at the moment Sky News is free for all the answers in 5-years or whenever it might be 20 30.

Are they paying for all of Sky News or are you saying you're offering bit they have to pay for like MailOnline doors like the sun's just announced.

It's doing they will always be better what you do and I will always be a free aspect to what we do.

It's got social importance is an important part of our offering.

It's important part of our lord and Company there will be paid for experiences and the experiences that open up new ways of modernization for

A little bit less than a direct paid relationship regret relatively recently building a what you might call a prime time schedule a series of our long programmes in the evening at some cast photos teams high-profile presenters when you look at the decision to build that schedule in the context of this strategy does that feel like a that was a step in the wrong direction in fact given your viewing figures and the fact that GB news by some measures easing past Sky News so yes in the last year there were a couple of swear on an average minute audience vibrated bases on UK when your television yes, they beat us and what we welcome competition and I think it makes you better not judged.

Just on one network and not controlling for 1-minute recommend strongly pointed out the third biggest news app in the country.

We've got all these.

Digital metrics that we look out with plug into a wardrobe organisation on those programs, if you don't think about them is programs, but more and they were talking about his Hobbs I mean we've got a political report that second and then we've got a World Report we've got a money report.

We've got a UK report programmes is an expression of those reported, but these reports manifest in a variety of ways and this is about making sure that reaches digital audiences.

Not just now but well and in the future and as you're listening to this Alex from for in Geordie from the Independent this would be sky entering a paid content arena in some form and that Arena has got very very busy for news on news adjacent content.

Do you have come Wednesday they're simply isn't an overall pool of subscription money or paid-for content money that that people have got to spread around we're going to Primark

Will always be at the forefront why we just reached his landmark, but there's a large digital used for the first time and we've done that how we would you do with it and we deal with competition by being daft by looking for surprises by leaning into the future abandoning the parcel traditionalism and being flexible acrobatic in what we do to make news ask you about that point is the Independent monthly audience of 19.6 million in November 2024 mail Online audience as I understand it was 21 in December 2024, so it was a 1-year 1-month is 19.4 the same as 18.8 in America is it in my book.

Geordie let me just bring me back though and Alex as well for the question.

I was asking which was a simpler point which is the more and more businesses compared with where we were even 10 years ago are looking for people who are willing to pay for news content or news related.

I don't want to I want to be flexible and acrobatic is Geordie clearly is that channel 4 pretty flexible and acrobatic can take you on but I think there's people want free right so I would say yes absolutely there's a place for subscription for what we see is people are not keeping up all this too.

Many we all do it with cancel that cancel that go into watch 1 Series then think there's nothing left there especially in a downtime and especially for young people.

It's a mixed economy people lots of things and they will pay for something so I think one should be careful of the belief that there is always more consumer money to pay a and that's why you see Netflix and Disney and others.

Creating an ad service as well because they realise many consumers want for all of us for all of us.

We could make is if we equate video even live video and long-form reporting with linear television and equate digital just with text based platforms a lot of provision was directed towards those ok when making when your TV over here with publishing words over here and I think what we're talking about today.

That's not precisely where people are consuming what we have to offer and we make the offer meet them where they live and Jodie in 2016 the Independent was the first the UK's first major title to abandon print.

Do you receive it looking did you just get ahead of a lot of these friends early, but it wasn't it was embracing digital.

The only time with ever made a profit.

I had growth is since 2016.

We had 15% growth in circulation in revenue and profit and we are one of the few media companies hiring new people we changed our revenue base as well.

We had 1 million purchases for Indy best site this year.

We have 6 million newsletters.

We just done a documentary on an sang su chi call cancel which led to the Foreign Secretary calling for the Burmese leader to be freed quality journalism can an argument have impact bring leaders in hold them and if you don't keep to that central truth.

That is quality journals much more about we get lost in the Weasel regulation and get lost in the weeds.

How we tried it money.

You've just got to do it if we don't make money we go bust we are not subsidised by government as you are.

Don't have the luxury of that.

We have to be earning money making money thinking about money as well as I've been at the progressive newspaper with all these different aspects of course the pursuit of earning money for all needy businesses, which operate in the commercial sector has been impacted by those businesses relationship technology big tech is it often referred to him? We're going to ask all three of you how you view that relationship in the moment, but one of the reasons I mention this because couple of weeks ago.

When was it 83 weeks ago? I was on my own in the studio because you were I was because I went off to interview Bill Gates because the Tech Titans got a book out its source codes my Beginnings and it's about his childhood and the factors that shaped him and you really reading you get a sense of the excitement and empowerment that he felt as a kid about technology and getting access to those early computers because these days so many people have concerns about tech not least.

We've been discussing them in the studio.

I asked him when I went to meet him.

I asked him.

Where did it all go wrong?

Well, you know everything that comes along can be used in excess.

I mean in other people think their kids read too much and I should get outside and play trance Nation get well.

I think that's the German sending video games you know they're overall they can be fine, but if you don't kind of monitor the time and get a kid to do a diverse set of things in a van that can be prominent so in a social networking even more than video gaming in time and make you worry about your other people have proven you such really want social networking comes along that we first start to see the it you have to be careful.

How get used up until then it's mostly a story of empowerment.

I can write a great document I can stay in touch with relatives that are far away.

I can find information.

But now in a 10-in as things before of the sub even more true we have to think a lot about the kids you super also even when adults do would you take a view on what age your grandchild for example could have access to social media holding kids back ST16 which in apparently Australia is going to try to do that.

It will be fascinating to see that beneficial.

I think there's a good chance that a smart thing when you 187 Seattle hosted the World Fair century, 21 and you say the message was technology was progress and in the right hands.

It would bring now for all your success at Microsoft and obviously sometimes government says you cross the line, but you never changed how people thought about the world in terms of the way social media stars.

Are you worry?

About the concentration of power when it comes to social platforms, but a handful of men have now I don't know our politics.

There's plenty Beacon about because people are more polarised trust in institutions has gone gone down someone at a time.

Where is a eyes becoming more powerful having the government on behalf of people think about how we container had effects of job market how we change our taxation policies so I worry about politics.

I don't think it to mistake for people to talk to politicians about technology in fact that you put on big on so when you think now that what's happening with the it looks like that of the soccer bags the Elon Musk obviously are courting Donald Trump if you like the new President

I think Donald Trump should learn about what's going on in technology.

You know I set timer Donald Trump because he'll be making decisions about global Health and how we help poor countries which is a big Focus am I now and I want to show them how it's December 27th in a long discussion parking to Donald Trump if you in a what the US government to be your partner and saving lives whatever you're probably wise to take that opportunity.

So you're not sending about their Motives you can resend it when I started Microsoft I had this crazy for you that we didn't need to have an office.

DC and listen this amazing.

We have a country where you can have a company that isn't involved in politics at all.

I did that longer than I should have came to regret it.

So it's not necessarily a virtue to hear and completely ignore what's going on in politics in the US they don't need fact-checkers any longer.

If someone was to post on Facebook complete on trees about a vaccine programme that you phoned.

What do you think Mark Zuckerberg should do about remove it or do you think free speech trump set?

Well, I'm truly sad that in the current pandemic.

They were that's that one of occurred if people had sort out vaccine and I think you're online information and bear some responsibility for those das how you divide between free speech and truth is sadly neither governments know private companies in my dad impressed at how you navigate that boundary and they both you can save examples where ok? It's great that free speech gets the question the common Wisdom and you can site examples like the Covered back scene where that was awful are human today people are not real life style and so I don't personally know how you draw that line, but I'm worried that.

Handling as well as we should try and not impressed necessarily without Mark Zuckerberg says I'm not impressed with anybody's policy proposals.

I mean in which the government decision and you have a lot of different governments that are facing this problem.

I wish I could tell you know country acts in our clearly has preserved, but they got rid of crazy xenophobic.

You know things and we should all benefit from that model and I'll be the first to say that issues are going to be more important in more difficult as the AI keep builders get even better.

Well.

That was Bill Gates talking to me and you can watch the full half out the making of Bill Gates on BBC iPlayer I do think we saw a different size and you got a sense of that from the interview but certainly in the in the programme we do with Alex

CEO channel for David Rhodes executive chairman at Sky News group and editor-in-chief at the Independent and Alex all David first of all in terms of your react do you see big tech as a threat and obstacle to what you want to achieve in your organization's I mean I would Focus much more on it in terms of societal impact are super popular of the fun.

They're exciting they take up a lot of the Day British children.

Spend more than tick tock on tick tock than any other Western European Nations so one has said that I think we've got a look about what are the negative impacts so you know our research shows that gen Z are the most connected generation, but the Loneliest that's a worry to me see an increasing ordering of group so we see although there is a lot of discussion on social media.

We see that it leaves kind of illiberal popular them.

There's a lack of.

Discourse there's an inability to pay to debate even though actions and speech is higher at the group don't come together.

So I think that atomisation is as I'm concerned has to think about what is that causing some of that is because you've got an automated algorithmic feed so you don't have discussion.

I don't believe that free speech is the Enemy of productive and responsible partly addressing the impact of big data and Society as a whole but what about your business the way that channel 4 generates income the way that is able to distribute the content you make big tech getting in the way of the things that you might have been over 20-years ago.

We published the whole network daily on YouTube relationship for us.

We it's extra reach is a whole group of consumers that are not coming to television streaming faster.

That's excellent product because they're watching on YouTube

Turn the evidence of cannibalisation these people who on YouTube ready.

We 58% of our news social clubs are silver on tiktok Super successful cross with hard news complicated topics actually I mean more than you might expect somebody who kind of architect in a good part of our technology environment like he really know it's going actually an emergency.

I can't text a little bit late again, but I wonder when I just now.

I'm just teasing had more about you know it sounds like it is really have all the answers to my son Oscar is autograph.

He said to my son AI is unpredictable is exciting but unpredictable love Bill Gates amazon.co.uk tea when you go into those kind of big interviews before you arrive in Seattle are the terms of Engagement very much lockdown in terms of how long you're going to get where is going to be filmed.

Going to be to what degree would Bill Gates his team manage that entire exchange manager? I would say we managed it a lot.

It was a conversation.

We weren't going to use you no licence.

Do I need to go on way to Seattle and less? We thought we were getting something exclusive an extra and different from what other people are getting because because you always want to have the only interview banana Chewits situation like this where a global it was launching a boat across the world.

You're not going to be the only ones so we negotiated that we were the only ones he went back with him to his childhood home.

The only one she got to interview his sister's with him exactly ended up doing all sorts of things because he was very relaxed and at home.

He been very open about how he thinks he probably now on the autism spectrum, so it's just as well happy talking about that in front of him with me and then the book about climbing out of the window to go and have access to a computer and as a kid and suddenly I found him jumping out the window just show me Asian ne70 can still do it you get all of this these exchanges.

Filmed and recorded to what degree after the event do the colleagues are Bill Gates want to know what you're going to including how you going to cut it? I'll leave you to it.

Then leave you to it and then we working there are there are appropriate and inappropriate and I think everybody knows you.

Can't call up the German lessons.

I don't want you to use this and I don't I think you should use this evening we were contacted for clarification on certain things he said that I just wanted to clarify what exactly meant that still the Geordie Greig and chief of The Independent Geordie one area that bill and Melinda Gates Foundation investing is media organisations and as you recently at the Independent you are receiving hundreds of thousands of Dollars for the next 18 months from the gates Foundation how does that work with very lucky that this philanthropist chosen of zebra one he trusts me he wants us to cover it.

Give us the the general topics which are absolutely are in topics climate crisis child and maternal health.

National AIDS spending this allows us to fun that Jones and the high new people with total independent and in return we expect to cover the topics and they don't they don't mind if we are pro or against or what we do with long recover those topics they think those topics so Central to the health and wellbeing of the most important significant parts of the planet that any coverage helps that and it's saying they do not just obviously fundeu.

They do funny to sort of the Guardian the Telegraph el pais Lamont the BBC World Service as well as the BBC's independent international charity Media action has won the most conspiracy theories about ever if you heard this is what people who believe in conspiracy will be asking if you had a story as the editor about the card Bill Gates himself and bad light.

Would you run it or would?

Try to ignore it now that you've got that money from the foundation.

Why would the Independent brand is reputation not to be independent and they would have that which is why they come to us.

They came to her a news brown with strength and quality and independence and that's what they wanted to find phone number for new hires and which we wouldn't necessarily be able to actually that is subsidising journalism finding the difference between having a billion class with you get from government if I said to you if the government asked you to withdraw story.

I know the answer is the same with us funding from the gates foundation at Sky News or has been an option so sitting here listening for the week.

Millbrook are monetization is changing and I think we've got to be responsive to that.

I don't think that Solutions like this one.

I think it's an excellent solution for something for an hour.

I like the Independent work for a corporate Media entity like as I think our plan r2020 £30 is really bad that I should do when your audience is changing when your manifestation is changing really rapidly and digitalization is changing just as fast as that something I'm going to finish the program really wrestling with these because all of the discussions connect to the business was that you are all shaping for your respective organisations that issue of replacing linear income Alex with digital income is one that channel 4 and all broadcast as a very familiar with is not necessarily something any broadcast was completely cracked.

What's the question the question is are you not concerned that the think they're the shift that David describing from digital isn't a like-for-like swap and that ends of exerting pressure.

That is Victoria that's question.

I think what you're doing.

There is you're getting your eyeballs on digital that you used to have some dinner and the whole question for the business model is how do you grow fast digital video given the global competition giving a world of creator economy on tiktok giving a world of global player is night Netflix the Struggle for us all ways to get big enough there where you have so much more but we do have the advantage of the strong bands.

You've heard all banging on about and in very simple terms that may be in here with digital video.

Do you think people should be paying a subscription so they can simply watch all the video the three of creators as much as they like all they should be seeing adverts ahead of the head of the ass.

I'm all about the ads and finding people going to be all about that.

We're leaving had that one big opportunity.

Is that when people have an afternoon your watch something is supposed to read it will listen to it.

They're likely to watch people going to watch this programme as much as they

Into it and so we talked about video first that we're talking about as people turn to experiences were watching or we ready for that.

Are we gonna meet them that we have to wear to do that I'm for a free market with people can choose to have that advertising or not.

We had a think I said 1 billion views on video model where you can either see an advert or you can pay that subscription to not seeing it is up to the individual come to decide what works for them.

Are we going to charge people? It's all aspects of our report any of our news report for which people actually are not just willing to pay but if they can get a different kind of experience.

They want to pay the most important thing is of the heart and the same as one of the self we talked about the cell about getting the cash.

It's very important, but if you don't have those first two heartsoul in journalism.

You lose everything I feel like we can carry on talking for some.

How it is up? Thank you very much indeed to all three of our guests here and studio Alex Megan see you channel for David Rhodes executive chairman of Sky News group Geordie Greig editor-in-chief of The Independent and earlier.

We heard from Lorna Woods professor of Internet law at the University of Essex and in the last remaining s.

We should also mention watch Katy with Bill Gates on BBC iPlayer right now right absolutely right it up right now and I suppose we should also say thanks the one I guess he wasn't here Bill Gates mainly thank you all for your company.

Thank you so much for listening.

Thank you bye-bye.