Read this: In the room with Trump and Musk, BBC Media Action answers its critics, what makes tech bros tick?

11 climbers appear to have died on the world's second highest mountain, K2 any was Gone Fishing BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 this week.

We speak to one of the journalist who was inside the Oval Office last night at Elon musk's surprise press conference with the president of the owner of ex is accused of a hostile takeover of US government will launching.

Series unpacking the stories behind the Silicon Valley Media elite and with so many of us almost permanently glued to our phones will look at how we can arrest back control the Tech Titan grabbing and monetizing our attention, but will start with the trump administrations relationship with the media and we're going to look at this from several different angles first that catching press conference the president hosted last night at the White House alongside Elon Musk the owner of x and Tesla it was too Mum Donald Trump signing a new executive Order giving must department of government efficiency more power.

Let's hear some of it.

Require play The orchestrating A hostile takeover government and doing it and not transparent way, what's your response to that criticism Astros romantic from the public running for President Trump won the house who won the Senate do people voted for major cover that about that well, it was an unusual press conference for a number of reasons.

He might be able to hear one of them for much of it Elon Musk stood next to a seated on with his 4-year old son who is named x on his shoulders well Jeff Mason White House correspondent for reuters was in the room and it was him asking the first question you just heard.

Welcome to the media show me you're so welcome in this relationship between Donald Trump and Elon Musk is one we've been watching closely on the media show because of course of what it means about the role of big tag in the administration.

This is there first press conference together in the White House what was it like? What was the surprise when we didn't realise that you might mask is going to be there to certainly not that he was going to be there to take questions so that was interesting and it was interesting as well to see President Trump kind of see the stage 2 his advisor and Donna and someone to home he is giving quite an extraordinary hour to reset government can't wait to go for Friday but also just Bradley to take on his shoulder is along with his team.

Process of restoring the US government in a way that many trump supporters are delighted to see and many of its detractors as I mentioned in my question or horrified to see I need a mustard do most of the talking.

How unprecedented was that do you think unusual and yet? You know everything was President Trump is sometimes kind of you.

I can tell you from during his first time.

I was in The Oval Office whites when he was on the phone with prime minister of Israel and I was asking present a question.

Why don't you ask the prime minister and the prime minister question over the phone from your eyesight that just to say there is always something on with this present but had to go back to the original topic and answer your question.

It is also unusual for him to see the stage and he did.

Adam take a whole bunch of questions he interactive few times and we have questions for the president as well, but it was it was definitely mister masks show and we're going into a bit more about what was sad but I'm just wash bizarre, wasn't it? Not least because of course it's unusual to see a child in the Oval Office in that kind of situation.

He was very sweet little boy definitely distracting and at one point even apparently.

He said I could see him then shut your mouth to someone what was all that like in the room.

Where is unusual this child to be part of a engagement like that? I don't know what else to tell you get a kick out of taking a lot of the charts with masks on at one point later on if he was sort of directed out of the the limelight, but he stayed either on his dad's shoulders are outside for a good chunk of their back and forth with the price and when it comes to you you aren't you ask the first question in terms of what did you make of Elon Musk response to your question and added to the questions about the journalist question answer to the questions that came as follow-ups about accountability and he said that he has largely because of President Trump's very solid electoral.

So that was this sort of the shoulders on which she was standing in terms of the work that used to think he didn't give a really robust on the other than to say that everything that they're doing is public.

That's not entirely true a lot of what they're doing has been quite secretive.

So they have been posting some of them about some of the things that he and his team have done but to say that it is apparent.

That is not really a line with the experienced workers had so far the last 3-weeks and government workers of course has been the target of a lot of the action that is not department department of government of fish is targeting and I just was struck by the fact that you got the first question and you asked it to Elon Musk would you in normal time? Would you normally Direct your first question all the first question in the past?

That would go to the president.

What was the room telling you you guys are being fired and that's not an accusation that I take lightly which means if you given an opportunity to jump in with a question, then you take it and I did and he was the one speaking as I said before the president of giving him the stage were giving him before so it was clear that this was HS2 ask him some questions also and it's unusual for me as a white house reported to say this but we've had so many opportunities as President Trump questions over the last 3 weeks.

We've had none no opportunities to ask questions.

He was there and speaking that he's been given that opportunity.

It was sort of a no-brainer to start with them and you talk about reading the room what actually just set the scene for us.

What was the room light?

How many Germans were in there? How does it work in terms of who was able to be there so many people that includes Wyre Forest newspaper reporters TV reporters in photojournalists and radio shows that group with the mixture of significance in which we can talk about later.

So it was it was kind of different people were part of the pool but more or less the same organisation or Media

Ok, and what is your in the room? You saw the dynamic Donald Trump sitting Elon Musk standing the little boy sometimes standing sometimes on his father shoulder, what was the dynamic between the president and Elon Musk like close close up.

I would say it was very they were both giving giving preference to each other Donald Trump President Trump times now send to you.

I must to take over and to take the questions that he did was deferential the President Trump made a point of saying at one point that is work in this in this department of government efficiency role that he would speak to the president almost everyday and would ask him if there were things that to me.

Never mind with the president and President Trump also one of the questions about accountability 1.2 when he was you I was asked about potential conflicts of Interest giving his major businesses that he needs have some of them government contracts and President Trump in a bit Broadway if there are conflicts of interest and the one we won't let him do that again.

No doubt questions that there was no answer generator Darwen but that was released for the most most of the time that you are speaking but but it is important to say that he was he was certainly deferential to his boss on a body language perspective though.

I think it's interesting also the President Trump

At his desk is pretty tall and he remains wearing a hat and t-shirt.

I think was a t-shirt with a suit jacket over it don't work as well, but also by the way you was President Trump said at the resolute desk which of course is also recommending pasture in in a state like the office absolutely reuters annual mentioning absence there has been reported another newsagency associated AP will not allowed access to that press event because recording they haven't changed their naming convention for the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America which is Donald Trump's now.

Can you shed any light on map?

I just a little bit.

Yes my colleague my report from the AP with us not allowed to go into your office because of a dispute between the White House AP style and mexico.vs golf America and and universe their access should not have been denied and that trying to edit a news organisations style standards over something like this and like that is it's not ok, so that's that's my position and disposition and that's what happened.

No, I will leave that to my water tower up to Cancer but that was the that was the dispute with the white house yesterday.

Whether you would companion it was interesting that you were saying you had a lot of access to ask in the president questions there were no complaints during president biden's time.

There was always no access to ask in the present.

I wonder if you compare the price access that you've seen between the two of the middle, so I'm always stuck and I don't mean this is a criticism at all by how much more deferential the White House report is R&B generally are two people they're asking you called Elon Musk sir, which isn't very polite nice form of address.

I just can't imagine British reporters doing the same thing and I repeat that is not a criticism.

Why don't take that I think it's important to be polite you can be polite and also ask questions which I did yesterday and I think we do general as to why.

But I think as part of that process is is not a bad thing your ear question about President Trump vs.

Biden press access I can objectively stages almost no comparison.

I mean we've just we've had so many opportunities to speak with President Trump going to ask you questions and the first 3 weeks.

He's been an office.

I would guess they're already out number of the number of times.

We had to do the same number for years and office.

There's a choice that both of them and they're stabs made, but it is it is objectively not even in the same ballpark.

Really interesting job.

So we're very grateful to you for coming on the media show that's Jeff Mason White House correspondent prices.

Thank you.

The US Media because he's currently suing CBS news for 20 billion this relates to his claims that the US network deceptively edited and interview with Conor Harris on its flagship few minutes programme ahead of the election last year.

It's been reported CVs is parent company paramount is in settlement talks with the president and I'm joined by regular Media show contributed the tiny Media editor at some of his back Max welcome.

Just explain why trump Donald Trump is suing CBS news, what happened actually in that 60 minutes into yeah, so right before the election Donald Trump announced that he would be suing CBS over it's editing of an interview on 60 its flagship news show 60 minutes basically because one of the promos for the interview that ran earlier had a different answer on it in it then.

Aired on it, so he filed what many people in the UK to be there was not a defamation suit it was essentially Zuma fraud lawsuit in Texas saying that Americans and himself and then defrosted because CD has had a different answer to the question and now I've just just just can't we just been outside and drop it.

Just pinned down.

What was the difference how significant was the difference between what she said in one and what she said she said in one of the answer in the answer that aired on the promo.

She gave a bit more of a non winding answer the question was basically something along the lines.

Have you had been able to exert any influence over president Netanyahu you know as it applies to the war in Gaza in the promo.

She basically says that I

She said someone able to push him you know to advocate for him to take as radical of steps as violent of you know and in the end that actually you're done CBS on 60 Minutes for the actual broadcast she says something along the lines of you know we are we are advocating for a ceasefire in both of the answers day or she is essentially dodging the question and as we later learnt because of the release CDs and at the FCC as it's released today.

Oh, yes, basically these were part of the exact same as she said these things kind of back-to-back so in both cases, she was answering the question that was supposed to her by 60 minutes and everywhere that CBS is defence then that they haven't done any altering of the

Their defences to fold one of those events is basically you know the First Amendment they are broadly allowed to introduce generally and the second one is also I think someone compelling Folkestone in the media and legal experts is that Donald Trump was nice has not really suffered damages from this particular the tune of 20 billion first of all he won the election.

So that's a pretty big pretty big win clearly did not dissuade enough people that he lost and second of all I was CBS is argued that in order to defraud someone you have to follow them essentially and that Donald Trump was not he understood the answers that comment was given in units of the question, so it doesn't really need the standard for for for being fooled listening to that many people perhaps will think ok well.

That's a good defence will see this in co-operative you around the First Amendment that right to.

Speech but there are now rumours, aren't there as I was saying that paramount will settle and also to their the company that owns CBS just explain why they might do that.

Yeah, so paramount is currently in in in the middle of a merger with audience which is another entertainment company which began last year and is set to close this year as part of that is part of that measure basically.

They are subject to regulatory approval by by the FCC which regulates a lot of the local television stations are a part of this dealing would be and would be holding in America so the FCC does have some regulatory power over this and according to people I've talked to paramount CBS spirit company believe in this is about what this is true or not.

They believe that if they settle this lawsuit that they will have a better chance of getting regulatory approval that essentially that the trump administration and Trump's FCC was actually back off of scrutinising this transaction.

The actual proof that that's the case particularly given some of the other actions that the FCC is taking over the last month but that's really not thinking ok.

I'm what is the feeling within CBS news about I know the executive producer of 60 minutes has reportedly said he won't apologise as part of any potential settlement, but you've been speaking to people inside that company CBS news.

I think or put it mildly.

I think they are they feel terrible about it, they feel that this is that a settlement is an acknowledgement that they did something wrong with that are According according to the most journalistic standards, you know the answer to this question and in so I think a particular all the way up and down the chain feel that this is that this would be a sign of weakness that it would encourage other folks are particularly those allied with the president.

To go after other reporting that they don't like so I think that they believe that it threatens CBS is editorial integrity and I think that I particularly at the moment where news.org many news organizations and broadcasters are also think that you know what is it actually physically get a Costa people gonna lose their job because they have to pay 20 year 30 million to the president to settle a suit.

You know they think they can actually when in court must legal experts agree, so I think the mood within the ranks of CBS all the way from the bottom to the top of this is terrible and notably of course this is a decision that is being made by the parent company of CBS news at necessarily by CVs itself which continues to fight it in in a Texas ok well next time you do please stay with us, but I want to bring in Katie Fowler who is Deputy director at the night first amendment Institute at Columbia University Katie welcome to the media show just explain I was Max was talking about the First Amendment just give us a bit more.

On it and how its unique to American culture.

Thanks for having me so the First Amendment has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to give very strong and broad protection against government censorship and particularly as it applies in this case to the editorial decisions made by letter other authors or speakers and the Supreme Court just this past summer reiterated that the government may not restrict or try to impose penalties based on the editorial decision-making in that instance social media platforms, but it is also been held to say that you can kind of enquiry into or seek to change the editorial Decisions of newspapers and news outlets and in this case the central allegation is Max already know.

Is essentially entrance lost who is that CBS editorial decision about how it was editing a particular answer isn't either of the promo play longer interview that somehow violates a Consumer Protection law and you know this case on its face should fail under decades of supreme president it violates the first amendment and I think what you you can absolutely see here is that trump filed the lawsuit under the Consumer Protection law as a way to try to avoid the strong protections for non-commercial speech what likelihood then do you think Donald Trump would have of winning on that argument about consumer fraud? What would you have of winning if you went to court? Do you think?

I think almost zero with one caviar.

I mean the court of long-held mentioned or we talk earlier about defamation cases, we know that the First Amendment provides very strong action against any claim of defamation and the court of help that if you know plaintiffs are essentially trying to impose financial liability on a speaker but they call it a Consumer Protection claim or some other kind of tort claim.

They are trying to make it not seem like a defamation claim that they still is going to be fall to it first amendment defence so we would have no chance of succeeding the one thing is that trump filed this last in a specific Court district in Texas before in order to get a judge who is well known to be quite receptive to novel conservative legal theories so it's possible that he might have some success in this case at least the trial Court level the first level by

I think it this we're almost certainly a fall under the first name of the of the ippoliti before the supreme court and it's worth pointing out.

This is only one of President Trumps lawsuits against the media social media back in December ABC News agreed to pay the president 15000000000 15 million to settle a defamation lawsuit after it start anchor falsely said he had been found liable for the context of jury in a civil case last yet found Donald Trump liable for sexual abuse which has a specific definition under New York law then last month meta agreed to pay him £25 Donald Trump sued it and Mark Zuckerberg over the suspension of his accounts after the January 6th capitol riots next time if I just bring you back in now.

What impact do you think this your seats has has had on news organisations across the United States Donald Trump is that?

It's not the first time that use suit news with your organization's enough oftentimes.

He's he's been unsuccessful, but I think that many news organizations feel your frightened by somebody suits, they know that it is meant to be intimidating and and discourage many of them and you know of course when it when it comes through a lot of his bigger than a corporate media companies in particular the broadcasters a lot of them believe that they will have business in front of trump government over the next 4 years business that will be subject to regulatory approval whether that means and mostly I believe and N18 white Trumps governments have done in the past to try to stop certain murders Trump's Department of Justice tried to slow down the radio at during his first term they were unsuccessful in an attempt, but not there as part of the day slowed it down by by monster or years and quite remember the timeline.

And that was time that the company had wanted to to modernise itself that I couldn't because I was stuck in this kind of regulatory limbo, so I think a lot of the major major broadcasters the major corporate media companies are watching this with a lot of concern and I think that's why you you've seen them consider selling what they believe to be winnable cases, is it for a student to see Media organisations in this way, I think the depressed most of the president and I'm not I'm not familiar with your going back to the street.

I buy but in the garden you're right.

It's quite unusual Joe Biden obviously I did not do this during his time in office Barack Obama but of course Donald Trump has used legal means to try to sell some of the scores in the media, but I'm sure there was a little bit more than I am certainly this is something that is unique to

In terms of its in terms of scale that I think it's fair to say that it's unprecedented for the president to media companies in it's also impressive and extremely dangerous to have media companies are there parent corporations settle these cases that they could win and that they use to establish greater protections for the Press And instead to bend the knee which is you know better for everybody but we are now going to turn to the impact on the media of President Trump dismantling of the United States agency for International Development which oversaw the distribution of tens of billions of dollars worth of overseas aid every year Donald Trump as usaid of fraudulent and wasting taxpayers money and it came Under Fire In The Oval Office president we were talking about earlier in the program, but Max tiny from Saffron Walden the sum of all people might.

Surprised to hear that the huge cuts to usaid are impacting media organisations around the world just took us through it.

Yeah usaid and what about one of its functions is to obviously fund non-government organizations all over the world and that is not insignificant amount of money every year for four energias that find independent Media particularly in places where a free press that might not be able to survive where advertisers might be scared of reporting patients might not be able to support themselves, but in areas where they benefit from central free press that otherwise wouldn't be able to exist exist there in so usaid 4 years has funded many organizations that train journalists around world and in some cases organisations that provide some funding for Full Coverage particularly in places.

Where did win otherwise be economically feasible and so that's around that's to the tune of something around.

250 million a year in that Donald Trump is pledge to spend any particular organisations that people might have heard of them there a number of engineers, but you know the one of course which is Which is slightly may be applicable to the show I am the one that was actually singled out by the trump administration is the BBC media action which believe if I'm honest and correctly in a fun size trainers.

There is one of the organization's are trains journalists around the club, but there are a number of organizations and dad fun journalism in Eastern and central Europe and Russia Iran and other countries that have us believe that there is adequate and oppress ok, and we going to talk indeed about the BBC's charity BBC media action and the money but it got from usaid because according to a 2024 report.

Usaid donated 3.23 million that's 2.6 million lb making at the charities second largest donor that financial year and it's boss is Simon Bishop with me now hello Simon just explain to be with you might not have heard of it.

What is BBC media Action first of all she also BBC media action is the BBC's international I will say we're just like the rest of BBC whereabouts sharing trustworthy Media at scale to audiences around the world, but the crucial differences we working in places of need so right now.

There will be journalists on the Frontline of Ukraine wearing flat jackets and helmets that we supplied and reporting back to you a radio and TV station that we help the national Ukrainian national broadcaster to build another example for you in humanitarian settings.

That's a typhoon is coming obviously need.

You also need to know where the shelter is that bit of information can be the difference between life and death and so that's the kind of stuff we work on doing journalism then it I do see yourself as providing journalism, so we support during this I say we're not journalists ourselves, but we are out there supporting journalists and we doing 100 million people a year across 30 countries in 50 languages, and I'm delighted to say where 25 years old today and critically and this comes to the point that usaid we can only do our work the generous support of our donors and I mean you are providing Media on you that would be right.

Yeah.

Why do you believe that? It's the BBC's job to do that to build stronger democracies for example which I think is one of the descriptions.

So if you look at what we do.

Are supporting journalists and media all over the world? It's a fantastic privilege actually to be able to share the best to the BBC world leading with organisations around the world who aren't fortunate enough to have the breadth and depth of the BBC and there's a kind of moral case for doing this you know if you see journalists around the world going about their business trying to hold the powerful to account trying to take they are there a cornerstone of democracy along with rule.of.law along with they are they're providing the trusted information that is countering disinformation that we see so much of nowadays, so they're going about their business in many other countries 75% of countries are well.

Don't have a free press in many other countries.

They are being followed.

They're being beaten up in the worst case they being sent to hard labour camps for just doing their jobs their families are being

Answer it's right to support those journalists individually as a moral case for that, but it's also writes to recognise that without journalists you cannot have freedom and cannot have democracy you cannot have human rights and so these are universal values and therefore things that it is worth supporting BBC media action.

I think that you're editorially completely separate from BBC News but you follow the editorial values and standards of the BBC just unpacked part of it and he wants it is that's absolutely right so we have parts of the the BBC family we have to operate under the BBC's editorial values and guidelines that means everything we do has independent the content we produce that we create is is created independently and therefore completely and very clear.

After the BBC family and we are very proud to be passed the BBC family and I hope the visa family of are proud of us and what we do but critically we are editorial independence more dangerous, so they can't influence what we do what we create and critically we have no impact whatsoever on BBC news for a completely separate from us, but it sounds like you are participants in politics and Culture abroad in a places that you're working in.

How is it possible to remain impartial in that way because any impartial assessment of climate change is happening and it's affecting the world's poorest people and we see that around the world so then what we do is we work on content that helps people adapt to change so it might be might be farmers in Kenya who are experiencing changing in the weather pattern and that is affecting their lives at the livestock a Dying will produce.

Sent around how they can harvest more rain water so they can and keep their animals alive that keep their livelihoods and we've been talking a lot today.

He reposted the claim on ex usaid funds the BBC and he wrote BBC is literally state-funded media.

Are you describe his remarks as misinformation explain why and also how you work with usaid because it is off BBC media action the charity that receives the money from usaid not the BBC show the BBC is not funded by usaid he was actually spreading misinformation when he said that I am terms of how we are funded from usaid we have six projects currently in five countries give you an example the storm we support 50 radio station bear including 10 run by and led by women journalists still delivering for women information that they need lifesaving information.

In a very very difficult context in terms of if I can talk about the bigger usaid support to journalists and picking up and what match was saying so you studying 2023 Ford 6000 CD around the world 700 Media outlets and 307 Society organisations that support journalism Media like BBC media action and most of those will be struggling now many well have to close and then we have a termination letters for two or three of the programs so that the money over and they gone like what so like like for example the Afghan program.

I talk to about my talking about programming in Bangladesh supporting refugees that finished the money from the USA and scrubbing now.

Brian back feel that money from other other donors and always have anyone to do that will be absolutely fantastic and but I'm in the important point here is not about us or BBC media action.

It's about who are the winners here and the winners are autocrats the winners of those who want to so disinformation division and conflict and undermine democracy because they this to hold the powerful to account.

They are no longer going to be there and in some of the most autocratic difficult settings around the world and I don't think that's good for any of us and how do you ensure that your work isn't exploited by corrupt regime by the financially all your in your editorial output everything we are editorially independent.

So there is no way that we can be influenced by corrupt regimes or by the donors themselves and we will not apply it will take funding from donors who want to influence we have to stick by.

And we do stick by the BBC editorial policies and standards and as you know very high.

I know that have been done as he would refuse to take money from and why would you refuse? Why might get a Valleys another line 2 hours or because they are basically trying to implement data or content and that is totally unacceptable and you won't get their money and that usaid money but they gave about 8% of your total income misunderstand it.

Have you ever receive money from the US state department and what would that be for I don't know to be honest with you on top of my head removed in a wonderful 25 years existence, but I'm afraid I don't know right now as far as I know not but again.

I need to check and then I suppose my last question really is just right for governments to try to influence the political landscapes of recipient Nations using media could this is a source of power isn't it? So I meant to points on that.

When is going back that moral case to support those journalists around the world if they are being beaten up if their newsrooms a regular being raided in Aviemore cases, do you walk on by an outside the road when you can see someone in distress or do you do something about it and it's important to remember in all of this usaid debate the world is half screen poverty over the last 25 years the number of under-five deaths children under 5 who died from 12 million years to 6 million years in still 6 million to many but it's hard aid has played a role in that and it's important to remember that and so there's no you're not saving lives in that way.

You're not providing a vaccine.

You are providing.

How do you measure whether it's working so it's harder you actually right compared to a job in the arm.

You're not going to die from a particular disease, but I think we all recognise that.

Indications is a critical part of effective change, that's why we have the media at the end of the day.

We are out there inspiring people getting people to change their behaviour so if you go back to let's a bowler 2015 and we can remember that West Africa that horrible horrible disease and we reach two out of every three of the population of Sierra Leone with what was saving information in if they touch the body they were contract ebola to just providing basic information about that do not touch the body make sure you wash your hands all that kind of person with covid there an absolute role2play without the communications value to that it is harder for us to say this is saved that many lives we are able to do that sometimes, but it is hard but nevertheless there is an enormous value in what we do and Bishop see you at BBC media action.

Thank you so much for coming on the media show an earlier we heard from Katie hollow Knight first amendment Institute

Representatives from Columbia University and awesome axed from Simon thank you both as well now.

We were talking at the start of the programme about that unusual Oval Office press conference any claims denied by Elon Musk that he's leading a hostile takeover of the US government mask in the other techpros many of whom were at the inauguration of course very familiar to me, but was changed is the relationship these men and they are all men seem to have to the US presidency and to power we're starting a new series this week to get inside the head of the so-called profiling some of silicon Valley's most influential thinkers some of the mill know Sammy won't but will explore the biggest and most influential people in media.

What's their worldview? What do they hope to achieve and we're going to start with Marc andreessen the chief ideologist of the Silicon Valley elite no less well.

That is how the New York Times of

Anyway, let's hear from him fast.

This is how Marc andreessen feels now Donald Trump's taken office but I just had that used to your under the sea level pressure for the song when is relieved it takes you a little bit of time to realise you know my god, I can actually do all the things that we are things to do that that was Marc andreessen and to tell us more about him.

We're joined by Lauren good senior writer wired and co-host of The uncanny valley welcome Lauren if you had the summer what Mark Andrews and stands for in just a few sentences, what would you say? I would say he is a capitalist in case the phrasing venture capitalist in giving away.

He is very much about a free market economy.

He's very protec he's very pro crypto.

I would say part of a group of people who describe themselves as that would be described as anti-woke ok and and how did he first make his money and indeed his name in Silicon Valley he isn't one of the best-known, but he's clearly influential incredibly influential an incredibly powerful figure in Silicon Valley he started at himself as before he became an investor he was one of the co-creators of the Mosaic web browser in the 1990s and the web browser something that we all used and take for granted today, but time at the idea of a user-friendly graphical web browser was kind of a novelty was incredibly innovative and he eventually commercialised Netscape sword navigate to AOL at the end of the 1990s and became incredibly wealthy man, but really I would say he became start using more famous and when he became an investor and

Eddie most notably he wasn't early investor on Facebook and also became a member of Facebook's board in the early days to the resume that makes his venture capital firm which is called andreessen Horowitz that that that firm very influential in the tech World companies that we've all heard of the different has invested in Facebook Twitter airbnb left get coinbase on and anything with venture capital you know which is kind of silicon Valleys equivalent of banking but the way it works and has worked for decades.

It's a very high risk high reward type of investing in a muscle instances won't be successful in venture capitalism know this but they're making beds that occasionally they will be that.

Company that makes it worse it gets them.

They're returning that they are seeking and so Anthony Horowitz has been incredibly good at making his dad's well done, then.

We want to understand more about his worldview and usually that you've been quite outspoken about this and has published a lot of manifestos to sum it up first what he is.

What he calls the video right so jealous something that he is spoking about recently basically the side.

Do you use to be this kind of understanding and Society that if you were a text founder who became incredibly successful and yes incredibly rich, but you were also creating jobs.

You were paying taxes and that you're also giving away some of your right you were involved in philanthropy that for a while.

We sort of held up these texts founders rock stars in early 2000s in particularly in the 2010s.

Dangerous and that deal with a pretty great deal and I think in recent years as there is something of a text lash or more critique of the Tech industry and incredible amount of power and Influence has Deal history of falling apart mate.

We are taking your much more scrutinising however tech industry, and he doesn't like you would like to go back to the deal with text and evil ok and in 2023.

He published the techno optimist manifesto.

What was that this was indeed a minute faster and over the years the American Jason has published a blog post a comment that I would say it really sort of Ryan tedder.

Can a strap-on urban Society this was a full-on manifesto in a sense that it sorted was working for a caravan mobilisation or like a political movement it has chapter and it's quite like the and he was sort of underscoring his beliefs in a free.

Economy technology should be allowed to just grow and he sees it as an incredibly important driver of economic growth.

He sees it as benefiting society kinds of positive ways and that is one of the ways that people can technology is one of the ways that people can make material change in the world but also what was interesting about this manifests a fair amount of attention is because he had dinner 5E enemies of progress enemies of technological growth and it's some of these are actually in quotations were here trust and safety or tech ethics or esg which stands for Environmental social governance we enemies why I think we'll be enemy we got a clip about that Lawrence I just hold on for a sec and let's have a listen to what he says about his detractors.

You know the recognition of course is if you start out with a pessimistic frame.

In a matter position is what I is what I am serve that the person is sauce wide integrated rate law with customers and quickly and you know the end up very angry and bitter and hostile vacating for extremely in a while and it's hard to say exactly what he means but I think regulation is certainly a part of this mindset that particularly the most recent common ministration has been bad for technology.

I think it also applies to policies internally within companies where kind of Progressive policy.

It's been introduced recently people with insult and Elliston keyboard in Silicon Valley will see is a hindrance to their growth as someone like Mark interesting isn't this is interested in.

N Scale at all costs and if you have policies in place, I can do that anyway then those are the only to him and key question what influence do you think he has in the trump administration of any Catalan of influence over the trump administration and he himself said in a time period between the election and the inauguration that he was spending about half of his time and more logo.

He doesn't have any kind of tonight the best of my knowledge and official role within the trump administration has referred to himself as an unpaid intern which makes me quite concerned as to how you see if he's unpaid but somewhere else but we also know that a couple of the Hampton place within the trump administration one is never director of the office of personnel managements another is working as an AI advisor and so.

That's just two examples.

I believe that the influence Terence pretty deep ok.

Well, Laura good.

Thank you so much for coming on longer from wild that was illuminating for sure.

Thank you so much.

Thanks.

Can you only concentrate for a short period of time? Are you always looking at your phone? I'm next yes believe I'm the big tech attention has become a commodified resources extracted from us and this is an idea.

Xxx close in his new book Chris Hayes us network MSNBC Sol in program and he's with me he's here with me Chris welcome to the programme The Book Sirens call describes itself as an urgent call to reassess our understanding of the attention economy, what does that turn actually mean to you? I think what happened is that attention which is a personal subjective experience basically the substance of life? It's it's all you have a moment to moment.

It's what your life is really has become a resource a resource that is.

An aggregated in pooled and drive the prophets in Fortunes of some of the companies were just talking about in the most powerful corporations worldwide one of the billions of users in the pub mean because of the competition for attention the stage.

It's also become the chief resource were politics democratic and authoritarian politics and so we find ourselves constantly battling to maintain a sense of the meaning of a what is H our own attention against horses that are trying to with increasing sophistication extracted and compared it from us because you compare what we've gone through the way our attention is manipulated by corporations as you're talking about you compare that to the Industrial Revolution what do you mean well specifically the relationship of Labour mean labour is something that predates industrial revolution in the sense of humans and always told the boys put their effort toward project to produce things but the industrial revolution in the creation of industrial capitalism turn.

To this commodity that had a price called a wage and a set of institutions legal regimes technologies forms of production that standardised it and came together to take it from people for people that was a pretty bad deal feel great to spend all day stamping the sole of a shoe 12 hours a day 6 days a week and it created a sense of alienation that should be internal to you your effort and work outside of you for a price and I think it's a very similar happening with the tension right now.

I mean here in the UK to labour members of local councillors have been suspended over alleged derogatory remarks about various individuals including constituents are not going to ask you about the minute.

I have British politics but in the book you talk like the idea of social attention and how it can make people behave in Strangeways online and I was wondering whether they were paralysed what happened, but just explain what you mean by that.

But we don't watch people lose their minds online.

I mean I think you know but as you watching on masks descent here in the US is increasingly erratic behaviour the way that his conduct himself.

It seems impossible to disentangle it from his increasingly addictive behaviour on the platform to be honest we can decide how often is posting their 24-hours sometimes in possibly it well for yes of a matter.

How good it is for his store psychology, but I think the same moment said yesterday is not a happy man.

I think about I have a little bit but I think it what happens is one of the things that makes this error new is that the ability to get incoming feedback social attention from strangers has Scrambler wiring and we know this is a fact because there's a troop and cliche about how theme Drive people mad, but it's the scale of social media that has no democratize.

Agnes of Fame for basically everyone we've all watched people lose their minds in the public eye because our formations are not equipped to deal with enormous social attention from strangers because the social attention were used to with people we loved we have covalent bonds with people have relationships when you start to get it coming from strangers.

You take it for something.

It isn't and what these technologies have done is they have scale this for everyone and in so doing I think really sort of started to make with the deepest part of us which is our Desire for recognition from other people and all of this is something that lots of people are worried about it about we talked about earlier, but some help Chris can we finish with some advice from you as an expert.

How do you think we can all start to rest back control over 8?

Have you got any is it a how-to guide as well as a rallying cry your book there somehow to the one really important thing.

I think is everyone should discipline themselves.

Just 20 minutes a day with their own thoughts with nothing but their own thoughts.

I think black reacts to myself to being alone and I don't mind which is something that we've all lost the Habit of but the pub on the phone during the commute.

I think that's just a small important practise, but I actually think the how to ask to this Mrs the fact that we were going to have to regulate this attention going to have your regulated the Firm to be brought under sunset of of legal regime that does not allow the level of extraction expropriation.

It's happening now.

I just briefly is that what you do you said on the sub for the bus or whatever in the car and you're not on your phone.

Obviously not your driving but to me the most important things to go for a walk every day.

We're I'm not doing anything but thinking and

Experience reduced to be a common one we can remember reading the cereal box in childhood an American thing to do that and the feel being really acclimating yourself to comfort with your mind because of what we are chasing here and part of the reason these two technologies does so seductive is a fundamental part of the human condition which is weaker and outrunner on mind and sometimes are mine can be a scary place to be and we have to get more comfortable being in there.

Thank you so much Chris has your book the sirens call is out now publish-subscribe UK before we go you might be hearing the bulletin for MI5 has issued an unreserved apology to the BBC and II law courts over their Handling of the case that the BBC was reporting just to let you know very interesting piece by Daniel de Simone g on the BBC website right now worth a look.

Thank you so much for listening goodbye.

Hello Greg Jenner here.

I am the host of your dead to me from BBC Radio 4.

We are the comedy show that takes history seriously and then laughs at it and we're back for a brand new series series 9, what week of all sorts from Aristotle to the Legend of King Arthur to the history of coffee to the reign of Catherine de Medici of France we are looking at the arts and craft movement and the life of truth and how can I work in the Bronze Age loads of different stuff fantastic series it's funny we get great historian to get great comedians, so if you want to listen to you're dead to me BBC sounds.