Read this: Mehdi Hasan, BBC Gaza doc controversy, Peter Thiel profile

I'm radio for the more you listen the more you see after all of that we're talking about your advice listened on Radio 4 on BBC sounds music Radio podcasts, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 the BBC is facing questions and criticism after its recent documentary on Gaza was pulled from iPlayer it emerged that the boy who narrates the film is the son of a hammer so I will talk to the former head of news and current affairs at Channel 4 Dorothy Byrne about the commissioning process for a film like this and we'll talk to the TV executive Leo pearlman, who was 1 of a number.

How many Jewish figures who signed a letter calling for an independent investigation into what happened but we're going to begin in Westminster wear on Tuesday MPs on the House of Commons science and technology committee quiz senior tech leaders from matter tiktok x and Google this is all part of an enquiry into miss information and algorithms on social media and that was set up in the wake of the Southport riots last year well cheat on where MP is the Labour chair of the committee and she's with us.

She thanks so much for coming on the programme thanks.

It is pretty rare to hear from senior figures in tech and you did what what did you make of the responses you got the first thing which I think in some ways the positive thing that came out of this was to get tiktok meta Google and x 2.

Talking to us because I think that the the the sense of the not accountable the Tech companies billionaires are owned by billionaires are not accountable destructed towards for democracy and also for technology into account the knowledge that they were account at that they felt they were countable to park now.

It was very important what we did hold them to account in terms of their what they said.

They had been doing particularly to address what happened during the terrible at following the Southport attacks and the top of the table riots that followed it and they did say it to them told us about a crisis team.

They said how many posts they took down but it was also clear to beat you to be frank that.

They couldn't give us.

They can give us exact figures for.

How many posts they left up that were missing information? They couldn't say how quickly their processes work to take down this information, so it may be aware is a false name for the Southport attacker circulating and that was and also the the rumour that he was a Muslim migrant and that was on tiktok and social media.

They didn't take it down and did tiktoks and recommended that information as part of its other search for BA that tiktok can tell us how they were changed that content groups Facebook groups.

They were moderated are moderated by racing.

You know by local members Facebook couldn't tell us.

How they were supported in terms of making difficult decisions about what messages do captive carry on and particularly Facebook

Download to post Facebook have also changed their content moderation to follow the X model which is community notes while than face rather than fat Chequers really concerned that in future indeed.

They would be actually less content moderation in the wake of a terrible event you know what happened in Southport with their answers in terms of their in terms of their answers to the particular questions that we our concern is to make sure that this doesn't happen again and to understand how this information is spread and put through social media and what also was clear Katie was the tsar multi-billion and in some cases multi, trillion-dollar companies that are driven by Advertiser

The business model reflects the level of Engagement the level of users is huge incentives to drive the spread of information.

They're not they're not the same level of incentives to Curate or stop the spread of misinformation and when you look at the models that these companies have they have they have the million pieces of data on each other that's all tuned to driving the spread of information.

They haven't got the same kind of technology or incentive to to model that when it comes to something together the riot the rights which was driven by misinformation.

We do want to hear a little bit from them and I think it you know side from horrendous events in Southport one of the things we talked about a lot is abuse on social media and what to do about it and then your session the labour MP Emily Darlington had this exchange with access representative.

Play-Doh Fernandez I posted a tweet about my petition to save my local post office this from one person.

You are a traitor to the British people and you will swing oh, so slowly on a gift.

I had to look up what it is.

It's not a pleasant thing.

I was supported at harmful and violence speech and in violation of your rules of expressing Desire for violence is not allowed.

That's that you're right.

What Emily Darlington went on to quote other highly offensive and abusive comments posted by the account not all aimed at her butt including anti-semitism islamophobia racist conspiracy theories and misogyny and she continued in that pretty acceptable.

The guys are free speech on x these days can make any insurances I can assure that our team will review under the terms of service and I'm sorry that you had to experience that tomorrow.

There's an apology that would do you make event that should never have happened.

I'm so sorry that Emily atack experience that but the fact that you needed to your account has been taken done.

It was taken during a session, but you didn't need to be an MP to an order to get a tax of that kind of level addressed and whilst the ex representatives and say that it was unacceptable and the account was taking down that gives no guarantee that there are not billions of attacks of a similar level are happening again.

Fortunate to have this up platform that MPs have but also what was noticeable that the Facebook representative couldn't say that some of the things that we said to him such as now all my your own migrants are dirty and anti-semitism and that they would not be allowed under the new rules that has brought in as he moves closer to the ex model of moderation in the whole thing there was a kind of you know we are doing very very best but we are not going to be held to be held to account to enforce that or to right the wrongs which are happening in the harm.

Which is being which has been can I think for me the most concerning point was when they all said that nothing differently would have happened.

I'm not going to happen differently had the online safety bill being fully in place as it is.

Play still April online safety act is not actually going to change things for the better at the question.

You know is it fit for purpose at is it doing enough? Is it going to be do we want this kind of miss information driven criminality and harm to be a part of a society in the future and no doubt no doubt we were much more about that.

Thank you so much for coming on the programme two or more MP labour chair of the common science innovation and technology committee.

No I've been talking at length with the journalist Mehdi Hassan who published a big profile in the US is known for his left of centre politics for challenging interviews for strong opinions and a big presence on social media much earlier in his career at various points television for ITV4 channel for BBC event took his focus on politics further with rolls at the New Statesman and having to post before shifting to a presenting role at.

The remaining in the 2010 to move to the us as well there he landed his own show on MSNBC one of the biggest news networks in the US that came to an end early last year and when it was announced.

I was curious what Mehdi Hassan might do next then the answer was that he created his own Media business called the Teo bills itself as a movement Media accountability unfiltered news and bold opinions and we want to hear about it and about how is different Media experiences in the US and the UK compare if we recorded this I worked on the Jonathan Dimbleby programme which around for several years it was a success of the weekend world which was a world and show and all that the tradition of long-form Sunday People interviews in the UK which kind of lost now.

I know but I was very lucky to work with Jonathan Dimbleby as a researcher producer on that team.

We used to do was called the document was so we would literally.

The entire interview and it came from the PJ day even pretty brown mould and where the guests says.

X you say why the guesses why use a z or Z as We Know saying my new also saw you giving an interview when you are launching your new media business when you said I like to fight on social media and that's a direct quote is all of journalism have to be framed in winning argue and fighting no not at all of you think there's a component of political journalism that doesn't need to be combative and adversarial and you know it sometimes take no prisoners.

I think we will add Polish especially where I am Wrath of the United States to get away with softball interview for far too long as a reason for having a populist moment and anti-establishment moment people are frustrated with the powers that B and the media is completed in that do you think there is a component especially to put interviewing where you are asking tough questions you are asking hardboard.

You are asking follow-ups and you're not just reading as a casual friendly chat because the person in front of me.

Power over millions of people and you mentioned your approach to all of this was shaped in part by working for ITV on Jonathan Dimbleby programme but just wondered if someone has become associated with strongly expressed as I think that's fair to say did you find out the time working in broadcast environments in the UK were due impartiality was required in some ways constrained the type of work.

He wants to do with impartiality requirements have their role.

There are pros and cons to everything that I'm in the US where they got rid of the fairness doctrine in 1980s as you know which led to the explosion in conservative.

Talk radio and opinionated shock jocks and there's a big debate about you know the media in this country neutrality requirement helped me as a journalist for sure I'm working on well at Channel 4 on a dispatches the amount of editorial Debate and discussion and rigour that goes into making a show that the amount of legal advice that you take them out of thought you put into getting things right.

Checking that help me as a journalist to grow because I have a very opinionated person on the type of television journalist that you became in the notes in the 2010s and then it's the 29th wouldn't really be possible in the UK would it not under the English right now called head-to-head which we film in the UK it is on our to the English in the UK used to be filmed at the Oxford uni now filming at Conway Hall in London and actually know we still have the same.

I don't accept this false binary that if your opinion journalist, you can't also do fair and balanced journalism.

I value very much facts and furnished what I don't do if I don't accept that furnace means that you take two points of view or two positions.

Can you just call about the middle and you say what I'm equidistant from left and right.

I'm equidistant from Conservatives and labour equidistant from Republicans I'm doing it right.

Around both sides and both sides types of coverage, but I'm going to come back to my point which is the if you were a presenter on BBC News Channel 4 news or ITV News you wouldn't be able to do the types of models that you were able to do an MSNBC so in some ways the American broadcast news environment allows how you communicate how you address the issues of the day in a quite different way to what you would have been able to do in the UK I agree so I take two things on that one is don't forget the US also has no network news nightly news with Lester Holt on MBC David Newell on ABC good.

Don't do opinionated on the way to say we're like BBC anchors right with neutral.

We're Playing It Straight my slight issue with that is of course whether you're a BBC anchor or ABC news anchor everyone has their biases and I do think it's a little bit little bit silly to pretend that people are not coming with their own biases.

Honesty to opinion journalism that I think is valuable.

I'm putting my views out.

They're not pretending.

I'm something that I'm not and I think a lot of our quote unquote neutral news anchors.

Do you have any work for the lot of these people? I know they're very very opinion people with a lot of the minute.

I don't think anyone I'm certainly not pretending that is someone on BBC News I haven't got opinions what I'm saying is that when I'm into the BBC news on my leave those opinions behind and do my best to come and I'm calling bullshit on that that's not personal against you.

I'm just saying human beings can't just switch off the range of opinions insights biases experiences with conscious and unconscious at just because there a camera rolls and they say the BBC news anchor that's not I'm not saying that means that you're like a lay studio a conservative of course you can switch that I do too.

I don't try and you don't even know your MSNBC the democratic party channel.

I didn't see myself as a democratic party representing grilled a lot of democratic.

My show but I think that's different but I suppose the the defence of impartiality and due impartiality was that as an institution and use organisation collectively is endeavour fair as it can be as accurate to the subject as it can operations but even when you look at the print press in the US which are trying to do what the BBC is trying to do then you at times.

It's ok to give you the new straight and then we give you a little opinion off editorial pages even there of course that news is filtered through someone's biases chases world experiences.

We see that Israel for example of the coverage of Israel and the bias is very clear.

We see that the whole range of issues.

I would say on the economy for example.

So I think it's good to aspire towards it but also think there's an important role for opinion as there is in the UK and you are very much making the case for I'm interested in the route that you've taken to the profile you have in the US you mention columns in the Guardian New York time so really established Legacy

Brands you mentioned becoming a regular face on broadcast news essential in the US what if not essential and very helpful to building profile, but the third dimension would be your digital footprint which three of the 2010s got bigger and bigger.

You are very well known for treating strong opinions sometimes you get in the middle of her a pylon or people will share an opinion if you was a lot of the approve of it, how is that changed? How you approach? Your work that that centrality of your digital output is really an existential question right now given the US Media landscape where you have social media companies repress and suppress contact you a big tech company bosses now basically rolling over the Donald Trump you have one of them that the owner of perhaps the most influential figure messaging platform Twitter is now basically a government employee and some would argue shadow.

There's a lot of issues going on here and a lot of having debates about how long do you stay on Twitter how do we best use social media as we cover this stuff? It's a real problem especially for people on little bro left and for me look like.

Very naked and proudly built up a profile on social media.

I have a knack Some Might Say I'm people finding the right barrel clips from interview we were very small show MSNBC but we had almost the biggest social footprint and some of the primetime shows on MSNBC so we did that strategically because sometimes I'll be watching a program and I think I can see what they're doing here.

They're shooting for the viral moment and sometimes I can feel that it just sorting the quality of the output because I do so did you not do that no in any way and undermine? Don't gone now.

I would say I think it depends on the situation clearly there's but you know there are hosts at Some Might Say Piers Morgan for example.

Jerry Springer play the television.

I've been on it so many time clearly.

He's trying to go for a certain angle in a certain moment.

I think you can over do it but for example.

I do I didn't turn out to be.

My last interview MSNBC do as you know is a very prominent spokesman for the very has been 4 years most people don't like a dog when he's very Smooth Operator we prepared a lot for that interview and I think most would argue I got the better of them, but there was a moment that interview where he denied that they killed my kids like I said to you soon.

Haven't got no I don't think so and they know where I went wow.

I knew in my head.

We were going to cut this is it and I knew and get millions of views.

I don't need anything wrong with that.

It was a natural reaction and I know that one else in that question I was waiting for his response.

It was a provocative question now.

I don't so I'm not going to apologise for one thing to create moments of television that are compelling and engaging but also but also valuable Comics and I'm not suggesting that you should apologise it's definitely interesting that you are aware of that in the moment.

Not just like all of them, but I'm curious though on a personal level of doing stuff that doesn't get seen it maybe you.

The tree falls on the word there's no one around here.

It didn't really make a noise that's my approach to play with when you wake up in the morning though.

Do you feel a pressure an expectation that you are going to open up social media would have been Twitter almost all the time that we want to see all diversified in that year, but do you feel a pressure to come up with that take to to come up with something that's going to get people's Fires Burning without it.

The new businesses.

You know branding I can see behind you in the new video that you've got that new business relies on you doing that Chris has my phone got a message when you book the attention economy important about the attention economy.

We do live in an environment.

Where people are trying to break through all of the noise get attention get noticed make noise.

It's a pressure on all of us is a pressure as much on the BBC as it is on me as a tailor.

When everyone is feeling.

This is a very crowded space a lot of loud voices the democratisation of the media means a lot of people some of whom should be listened to and some.

You know the BBC still trying to maintain relevant today or more reliable and factual and the rest will trust there's no point me a media company getting great big name that Naomi Klein and bass music from Crediton Owen Jones and then putting their content out there and no one reads us animation process those people listen as we listening.

We interviewed Chris Hayes on the media show a week or two backs.

You can find that on.

I just wondered before we talk about your new business in more detail addicted to the hits of going viral.

Have a friend with family my wife feel very strongly they spend too much time on social media.

I'm actually in the middle of re-evaluating.

I don't know if you know but last week.

I got into a back in for the vice-president my reply, but the and then I had a bit of a pylon right made a stupid joke that went badly.

Don't joke on social.

I don't know people like the Daily Mail suggest you have a terrorist so I was thinking to go back to your question as much as we like getting traffic from content and viral hits and you know that you know the dopamine hit and all that stuff.

Is it worth it when the site itself Twitter in particular is such a toxic play socially in general is not great for your health Twitter in particular has become a place filled with Nazis and crazy bigoton conspiracy theories.

It's not what it was.

I've been on there for just wanted to this a bit though the joke that you deleted was make American planes crash again and you deleted it was a tweet rose by the way of a story about another plane crash you explain what you deleted it and you said it was thought it was import a stand I just wonder as you look back at the moment that you posted it.

Whether you feel that expectation that pressure to land of punt to go viral in those moments risk.

Affecting your judgement.

Yes, you're right.

I think there's no debate about that other people before you post them.

I don't know maybe I should but when I was MSNBC was great pressure to have your tweets run past people because they're very careful as you know the BBC at all these big corporations and very worried about their staff social media posts a lot of pressure onto can I get it sometimes we can go wrong in that context I would point out that many people have been making sarcastic comment joke gigs at the trump administration for the number of plane crashes federal aviation authority staff.

I would point out that and the Muslim guy who did it immediately does islamophobic Ben which is so he's a terrorist 9/11 wants to the Daily Mail Ransom Ludacris headline suggesting that as did others on the right you know that's part of you know the outside and I will always feel is that I won't be able to say things that other people say simply because of the colour of my screen.

What sort of a joke that you regret making because it was important, but I would still also point out that if a White Guy made that joke the reaction would be very different you wouldn't got the races pylon that I got we've mentioned MSNBC very well.

No network of course in the US people outside the us know very well you had a show phone number of years that show was cancelled a few months after October 8th of War beginning.

Why do you think the show was cancelled you would have to ask MSNBC what they haven't commented but I'm asking you on a business.

I agree with but you know I left I was happy that we were able to negotiate eggs it for me because normally quite hard to get out of cable news contract.

They were very gracious and when I said they said stay on be a guest house being on a panda.

That's not really for me is 2024 the biggest fear of Our Lives news wise genocide in Gaza election in the US fascist at the door, so I wanted to go my own way and do my own thing which is what I do with it as I'm just glad.

Enjoyed my three and a half years my from someone who normally gets more directly than that.

You are very good contacts within the network and around the media industry.

I'm just on this particular issue.

You haven't said out loud what lots of people suspect is the case.

Is it just because you don't think that's true that the Israel Gaza war and your opinions on it on connected to the fact.

You're so got canceled.

I'll be very honest when I left MSNBC MSNBC both agree to look forward not back as that for a different account.

It's automatic.

I don't know whether it's the full answer but I suspect it's all you're going to give me in the time that we've got let's talk about the company that you've created since you left MSNBC it's called zeteo and fair to say that this is a business model resting on substack.

Is that to oversimplify or and its initial conception substack subscription business was The Foundations on which you were building?

This is one of the restaurant subscriptions not necessarily subs that we having to be on Saturday because it's the platform we chose to launch on and they've given us great support as we approach our first anniversary, but does that mean will always be not necessarily will say right now.

We're enjoying our relationship with them and it's beneficial to both sides, but the technology that allows people to go independent and build a relationship with consumers with subscribers is Fanta those other want to build up independent journalism non corporate Media so it's based on subscriptions and I love it because I don't have to worry about advertising I have to worry about corporate sponsored.

I don't have to worry about the c-suite have to look over My Shoulder from an Advertiser a financial interest, how much is funded by my readers and viewers and I am I being lazy if I was to say and all of those perspectives which are gathering are coming from the left of the political spectrum, and why are you deciding that those are the perspectives not just that you want a major on that you are solely that for me 3.

Number one I'm on the left, so I'm going to push what I believe in Mary Sibley number to the voices that have been marginalised by mainstream Media for far too long and they are big names.

You just don't get look at Great grandson to that gardener in capitalism Sunday she wasn't welcome in order the mainstream TV series around the world when she was talking about climate change media after I think that's a very important for me to give them.

We just ran a piece for young Palestinians in Gaza an open letter to Donald Trump a lot of girls and boys have been excluded from mainstream.

Especially American media which on a platform the mass number 2 and number 3 people get never get one of those on here over represented in the media at the media is a safe space for right-wing voice of work everywhere the BBC Sky News I worked at my work for the new multiple places over the years there are right wing voices in all of those places in Batman places are run by right-wing people so I don't think I need to do any kind of affirmative action or Dei for right.

I'm listening to describe the editorial office.

I'm listening to you describing the subscription model which is underpinning your business and I'm thinking about a debate you'll be very familiar with which is where act stops and journalism starts or whether there is even the distinction that is worth making do you think that when people are paying a subscription to say? Oh it is a classic content subscription.

I'm going to the money.

I get some content or are they really signing up for a caused the great question I think it's a mix.

We don't hide the fact that we are very mission-driven.

I don't know that means you're an activist.

I think that's that is a little bit lazy any jealous strong opinions or takes a position is an I wasn't saying that I was just asking the question in general this debate.

Would you identify can get very lazy and stale and activities and thrown around Rose as a pejorative right? You're not a journalist.

You're an activist and I just think you're a good start of our interview all Germans have opinions on just open enough to tell you mine for the outside.

But look we do have my lunch this.

I talk very loudly about how to me it doesn't say the r word racist about 7 people in public life.

It doesn't say the f-word fascist about something probably go what's happening in Gaza to get very upset when guests A genocide and I think look for me.

I want to provide a platform we can speak freely and we can actually have a calls.

Yeah.

Let's be independent.

Let's not worry about advertisers or government pressure or corporate pressure or lazy political consensus.

Oh, yes, I do believe people are turning up because they support the mission and believe in what year was trying to do what I'm trying to do rather than just going to get another new the criticism that you had some news organisations around the language.

They using with reference to some politicians and also with what happened in Gaza as you'll be aware Israel's repeatedly rejected any accusation of genocide it says it's respected international law that has a right to defend itself in particular after what happened on.

The 7th I appreciate it you're view the genocide has been committed but presumably you also understand that news organisations around the world are going to have their own processes and criteria for when to use certain words on 100% I agree with that is what I would say number one.

It is my view that just my view view of Malta International it's the view of amnesty International human Rights Watch and leading Israeli scholars of the Holocaust like oh my god.

I love and I must Goldberg age being investigated the International Court of Justice the plausible way, I mean there's a lot of people saying it's genocide but you won't find the same balance in our Media is it interesting roles that if we were doing it and kind of Fairway you have half the media organisations recorder none of them which tells me that the censorship of the word because there's enough scholars and enough human rights group saying this and one day.

I would say Rosie special about the BBC's and she brought it up.

Conflict going on in Ukraine and the BBC especially online as you know uses language about Ukraine that would never use about Israel and Gaza and I thought about anybody question the user's language about Russian airstrikes and Russian targeting hospitals and masochism all sorts of language users about Ukraine that would never day using guys and you know this road.

You do this for a living lol very upset with the BBC both in the UK and globally that it uses one set of terms and language for Ukraine and one set of terms of language for God and as you well know where is a BBC journalist not a BBC spokesperson, but coming back to my original point you list of the number of people who would argue that what's happening in Gaza is genocide, but you are well aware.

There is a difference between report those organisations or individuals view it that way and calling it that way yourself as a news organisation those are two different things that they are two different things but it's interesting that the way.

Another way to report on the number of people saying how much coverage do the amnesty International report saying genocide get it said about Ukraine would have got more covered if the double standards was that people cannot stand anymore? That's why they come into place like the Tail on the BBC says, it's neutral but it's coverage of Ukraine vs.

Gaza isn't neutral.

I just wondered one last question for you.

You are by most definitions hugely successful, when you were setting out in your journalism career surely the point that you have reached in terms of your profile both in the UK and the US would at least meet your expectations.

Maybe exceed your expectations.

What advice would you give to a 20-year old now thinking about stepping into the arena when you know how abrasive it is where you know how competitive is it is for attention where you know how contentious even basic facts can be what advice? Would you give the great questions when I thought long and

I wonder what I would say to myself.

I've said and I certainly did imagine myself here in the US having the vice president of United States come after me for a take on social media.

I would say three things number one if you become a journalist now do it for the right reasons because you believe in that cause you believe in the mission you actually want to make a difference to the world whether you're behind the camera in front of the camera while you're riding a piece of editing and peas at number to get some skills I graduated in 2012 when you can just be a jack of all trades master of none.

I don't have any skills even today.

I edit a package if my life depended on it, but I think these days young people do really need to have certain basic skills especially given the way that girl has done online so get some skill specialised and the number 3 I would say work on that thick skin of yours but to be a journalist a successful girl especially the time when Bad Faith actors have taken over public squares and multiple countries including yours and mine.

I think the thick skin cos they're going to come for you if you're doing it.

I need to be ready for that.

I have the thickest of Dixons that's Mehdi Hassan speaking to me a few days ago his media company is satay and on its coverage of the Middle East by the BBC has said careful consideration is being given to all aspects of our coverage to ensure that we report on development accurately and with due impartiality in line with the BBC editorial guidelines which are available but of course media coverage of the Israel Gaza conflict is back in the news because of the BBC documentary Gazza houses survival warzone which are on BBC 2 on Monday the 17th of February and is narrated by 13-year old Abdullah Al jazari who describe life in Gaza during the conflict between Israel and Hamas it later on the 13-year Old narrator is the son of a Hamas official Hamas is prescribed as a terrorist organization by Israel the US UK and other countries well on Wednesday last week.

The message to the start of the documentary on iPlayer it said that I've done his father has worked as a deputy agriculture minister for the Hammers run government in Gaza the production team had full control filming with abdallah the films production company is higher the films.co directors and producers are Jamie Roberts and use of how much they haven't commented since the film was put in a separate statement last Wednesday the BBC said we apologise for the emission of that detail from the original film the film remains a powerful child's eye view of the devastating consequences which we believe is an invaluable Testament to their experiences and we must meet our commitment to transparency then last Friday took the film down from iPlayer so we are conducting further due diligence with the production company and now here.

We are 9 Days on from the programs broadcasting the BBC has stated its commitment to transparency, but no.

BBC executive has given an interview and it's hardly surprising if I tell you we did ask the BBC for an interview it declined at we also send a number of questions for the BBC they were did the team at BBC to ask about the identity of the child narrator or how the child narrator came to be cost is the BBC satisfied with what it was told we also asked.

What was the relationship between the documentary makers and the Hammers in Gaza and did the director-general of the BBC Tim Davie or the BBC chief content officer Charlotte Moore see the documentary before it was broadcast well the BBC didn't answer our questions.

I am delighted to have someone who might help us answer some of these questions.

Please give insights Dorothy Byrne former head of news and current affairs at Channel 4 welcome to the programme.

Thank you Dorothy you got a lot of experience in commissioning and exacting documentaries of this nature.

Just lay it out for people listening.

What kinds of processes should happen under.

Before something like this is broadcast this film was a very good film made by a brilliant young filmmaker.

It was not pro hammers indeed the most striking statement in the film is when one of the camera operator says to a boy, what do you think of hammers and he says I hate hammers they started the war and caused all this misery having said how good is a film it also I choose significant problems with a one of which has been identified in the media actually the first is that the boy was the son of an official and we were not told this know if I was making this film.

I want just ask who the boy.

Who is father was who is mother was I would ask for the entire family tree.

I want to know who is Brothers uncle's you don't need to worry perhaps so much about auntie's and granny is because hammers is a totally sexist organisation.

I would have wanted to know absolutely everything that this bloke's even on LinkedIn and they could easily have found out about him shoes that due diligence was not done and I would actually the minute came out with the boys father was have withdrawn the film.

I don't know why they delayed that I think it is perfectly possible that the people making the film would have received this man.

I mean he was the deputy agriculture.

Went to Huddersfield University they may well have received him to be a harmless agricultural expert because it is a woman there for everybody who works for that.

Government is part of the hammers.

That was their mistake and it was for the BBC to ask the right questions.

They could have avoided that ok, so I can interrupt you, but I just take you up on that point just to say on that front BBC said we followed our usual compliance procedures in the making the film but we have not been informed of this information by The Independent producers when we can blind and then broadcast finish film so they are saying they weren't in for but what is your reaction to that? When are there a joke? That's like a joke and the BBC dumping on these filmmakers is really not nice to see.

Clean you just read it out that the filmmakers had full control of the filming that could give the impression to the audience that the BBC were this team had editorial control ultimately the broadcaster has editorial control I ran Channel 4 news and current affairs years.

I didn't wait for people to inform me of things I asked him the right questions and as I say I would have said I want to see the entire family tree of this boy, but the other thing is I would never have the Boy in the rating the film anyway.

Why was he narrating the film that was ridiculous so the boy reads things about his own my fine, but he's the narrator of the whole film no under Ofcom regulations and I'm not saying they were in.

This regulation you should only asked children to do something which is within their Ken this boy was reading out commentary clearly written by the filmmakers or the BBC about the history and geography of and current political events that you should not have a had a child reading commentary written by somebody else as if it was their own commentary that was wrong those work 2 hours and I'll a both of them at the door of the BBC on you might ask people often ask me.

Why does the BBC keep making so many mistakes it just keeps happening and there are two reasons for it.

Put that there is some huge conspiracy.

The first is that their lines of command and control on programs or to V people who work for them see there are too many cooks you never quite know who is in charge the sponsor bility is 2 and the second is that they have a culture of blame and where you have a culture of blame you will have a mistake and what have we seen here the BBC immediately denying responsibility and trying to blame other people.

Thank you very much indeed for speaking to her just to reiterate.

What Katie and I was saying earlier.

We invited the BBC to contribute to this program.

It kind.

We also send a number of questions and didn't receive specific responses to those questions.

Speak to Leo pearlman Fulwell entertainment and major British production company which made the Late Late Show with James Corden in the US for many years and continues to make a raft of hypro chosen series for the UK and around the world at the moment.

Thank you for joining us on the media.

Show we know that you're a signatory to a letter expressing serious concerns about what has happened with this documentary for people who have not seen the letter.

What are those concerns sorry? Thank you for having me I really appreciate it.

Let me just say a huge respect for Dorothy but here for all of her but her last point that you made around the rationale for why they make these mistakes reporting lines and blame culture.

I have to say I categorically disagree with the reason I say because this isn't just a one off This documentary.

Is is the latest in a long sequence people have been raising issues and concerns about the BBC about bias about mistakes about the journalist BBC

BBC news for the last 16 months and more the BBC have a nose they've just miss them.

They've gas that the Jewish community when they probably this you to the full and it be arrogance of this behaviour is compounded and led to this point West documentary is an utter failure on the part of the BBC and it's because of the last 16 months that we've got to this point.

I want to talk about the specifics of the documentary in the moment.

It is saying that the BBC has received criticism of its coverage of the Israel Gaza war from a number of perspectives and to reiterate the the statement that I read earlier after we heard from Mehdi Hassan at the BBC says careful consideration of all aspects of its coverage on this particular subject, but talk to me about the Gaza documentary was the issue for you the very idea of it or was in the way that the idea made.

No not in the slightest.

I think there are important films that should be made about this subject the normal Percy dock isn't shining example of good balanced.

Which as an aside made by the BBC pointed out that nothing happened in Gaza without Hamas approval and support there's been lots of documentaries made that the subject matter of Israel no other land the DVD files etc, but one doesn't criticise them for one good reason.

It's because there's documentaries don't abandon basic journalistic standards and ultimately simply parrot the propaganda or Hammer let me ask you about what you just said which is the you are certain that nothing can happen in Gaza without her glasses approval therefore.

How does video go about covering the consequences of Israel's actions in God's given the no journalist can access the territory.

I'm sorry.

I was saying that the documentary made by the BBC made a decision which was put out just this week.

That's what I was saying.

It's ok.

Let's talk about the fact the BBC make a huge deal of adding to almost every single news from Gaza by saying that is well doesn't allow.

Independent access for journalists, but it never says and maybe you should start doing it, but no Jen this can operate freely in Gaza and Hamas control because that's the truth of it, so if you're going to make a documentary like this and I think making documentaries about the conflict and in particular about the suffering the tragic suffering is going on in Gaza I completely legitimate to die.

So you have to be honest and transparent about where the information is coming for that is where the BBC have fallen down, but it's not just there they also fallen down and this point also hasn't been in the news very much.

Let's take the translation this you why would the BBC into translate yahudi as Israeli Jews why would they choose to take the word Jihad and mistranslated to hide the fact that their contributors are anti-semitic all of these are legitimate questions the documentary in itself is problematic the on the issue of the way that the documentary was translated the BBC hasn't commented on that are you allowed to a report which is in the Daily Telegraph on that subject.

I want to understand.

Position on making documentaries in Gaza is it your position that because Hamas has so much control across Gaza that it's simply not possible to do the opposition is that you can do it so long as you declare the conditions in which are working the latter absolutely the latter.

Can I ask you hello Leo thanks for coming on Friday Night Katy hear you clearly in my day job.

This is been a huge story because it is a huge story and there is a lot about cry out there.

There are people who don't agree people a monthly British Jewish community who don't agree and there's his letter including the likes of Alexei Sayle Miriam Margulies unlikely calling for the removal of what they call censorship and they claim those who call for S and X documentary intend to prevent people viewing an account of the effect of Israel's Assault on Gaza on the people trying to live in stay alive there.

They say I've done it earlier than articulate presenter.

Garda his father's job isn't relevant and they going in any case the objective of providing information that his father is a member of Hamas military wing northern if you were it would affect the standing of his son what what's your into that well? I am thirsty the name of the individuals who have signed that letter probably says quite a lot in Margolis Ken Loach Mike Leigh and obviously they can't even bring themselves in a letter to accept viewers should be informed if narrators and interviewees families are active members are proscribed terror group.

They can't even bring themselves to the comment on the keys and the documentary has been deceptively edited in contravention of BBC editorial guidelines the BBC itself, but they have been made and yet these experts have signed the letter r do nothing more than spreading dangerous Jewish conspiracy theories in the temperature down a very legitimate question.

BBC Exeter news Roger Mosey this week and used to determine an object's impartiality of the ex employer to the BBC but we are now going to take Miriam margolyes and Gary Lineker you should know better.

They should be embarrassed by that letter that they put out I've one more question for you Leo just before I ask it Katie we should make clear that the BBC's this is leading towards of BBC board meeting tomorrow where after which we may or may not may or may not get further details on the BBC be surprised if we didn't get something based on the fact that there going to be a board meeting tomorrow and trying to work out what happened and why and we are the last question I had for you is the earlier in the program.

We heard from the journalist Mehdi Hassan who made a point that he believes Western media coverage favours Israeli says it uses language about Russian airstrikes and Russian targeting of hospitals and massacres and all sorts of language that uses about you.

But it would never dare to use in gods of it will never die using Gaza to precisely quoting what's your response to that and I have nothing to say to me.

I said no question why you put on your show? Thank you very much indeed for coming.

That's Leo pearlman.

Fulwell entertainment at John Lewis on the media show now in the programme week.

We're looking at one of the biggest players in the world is a leaders who are shaping the technology that makes and distributes much of the content.

We all consume this time.

We're going to learn about Peter Thiel is an entrepreneur adventure capitalist is known for co-founding PayPal and the data Analytics company palantir.

He's with the first outside investor in Facebook a board member until 2022 and he's also a vocal conservative is credited with the political rise of JD Vance I'm sure there were many Factors in that but he has donated millions to JD Vance his campaign or Max cast.

Is a tech reporter at Bloomberg businessweek and author of the biography of Peter Thiel entitled the contrarian Peter Thiel and silicon Valleys pursuit of power hello Max just laid out why is Peter Thiel such a significant figure in today's political and media landscape was a key investor in many of the companies that have been found it over the last 20-years anything about the rise of Silicon Valley from this very important, but Nana silly normous industry to the industry.

It is today where were most of the big companies in the world are tech companies that was a big part of that story his venture capital firm founded phone is probably the best-known VC firm in Silicon Valley at the moment and he is also as you said can of the pioneer in this right word drift of Silicon Valley like he was the first venture capitalist to embraced the trouble and write in it.

Ok, let me just go back in time first in terms of his biography.

He was a founder since his student days launching the Stamford review paper when he was at the university.

Did that shape his worldview thinking build his network most people think of tea, or he briefly appears in the movie The Social Network as this kind of nameless faceless investor on Facebook and then one of the guys who helped Mark Zuckerberg sort of his co-founders, but really this entrepreneurial career was in politics.

He started as you said a right-wing student newspaper the Stanford review and this was kind of I would argue a prototype for a lot of the Conservative activism and just online activism that we've seen grow.

Give me I said and around the world since then the Politics of the stand for review were conservative, but it was really this kind of Trolling provocative politics the idea of walking right.

Is the line on race or gender and then when someone calls you a racist or sexist using at your advantage you know that was about court and political correctness on you know that was the term that was being is an 80s and 90s of course we now recognise that as well.

You know wokeism or whatever so I think he was really and ideological Pioneer there and let's talk briefly about how can we don't believe her paper so significant about how did that the founding of that cement is influence on Silicon Valley I mean PayPal meteor rich.

It was sold on eBay for a between 1 and 2 billion dollars shortly after the.com bubble burst it also connected him with this incredible network.

I one of the early key stages in PayPal was you on my and many of the people who invented PayPal when I want to be involved with a bunch of other companies in this network became known and this is a eternity you've probably as

PayPal mafia the idea that this is a loyalty network is a network in which people are our trading favours in destiny Taylor companies and over the years it developed into a political network many of PayPal mafia figures are now involved in the White House Max thank you very much for this.

Don't go anywhere we want to hear from the man himself.

He is with a little bit more on his worldview making a couple of months back to Piers Morgan something has gone very wrong with your progressivism in in the science the tagline.

We came up with was your day of the swine cars.

Are we got was 140 characters downplay the importance of Twitter and maybe maybe had a free up Twitter and change it into x have any chance getting back to flying cars, but the worst is restored on all these areas and that itself felt like a very taboo question to ask for a long time because if he's institutions were not working that was a big deal.

Kind of perspective I have on the bus see the work issues the culture war issues and things like that when he says they promised us flying cars all week 140 characters.

What's that actually telling us about his view of the world is Corby of the world is that we have gone wrong and then another has been this technological stagnation that these kind of science fiction a vision of the future that he imagined in his youth are in growing up in the 70s and 80s.

I do not come about instead.

We got social media 140v limit on a character limit on Twitter of course his view is at the root of that stagnation has is a an array of forces that are essentially holding back innovators thinkers innovators, the technologists.

You know people like Mark Zuckerberg people like him have been held band by all these restrictions and ultimately by democracy itself.

And in the net for that worldview is essential that we need to get out of the way and let these Invaders do they're saying Max about 30 seconds, but as you're talking to me.

I'm looking at Elon Musk speaking to Donald first cabinet meeting with that beer and outcome that would please Peter Thiel absolutely I mean I think the big irony.

Here.

Is that it from us cannot heal, who is kind of getting over glory because you're very much created display book in a play, but he won Oscars using a he was an early back at the trump an hour saying mosque Duty basic thing but in the White House in on this much larger scale and thank you so much for coming on the programme sadly although we could keep talking about that.

We can't because our time is up.

That's it for this week.

Thank you so much for all our guests including maxitech reporter at Bloomberg you can listen back to this edition and indeed all editions of the media show via BBC sounds but for now from me and from Katie bye-bye.

From BBC Radio 4 exemplar Series 2 the return of the award-winning thriller set in the world of audio forensics investigates, the recording has been doctored telling you but I did not say those words exemplar series 2 listen on BBC sounds.