Read this: Welfare reform coverage, Michael Jackson documentary, cuts to US-backed overseas media

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It's welfare reforms will assess the media strategy an important political moment 6 years ago documentary about Michael Jackson game global attention after a detailed claims of sexual abuse now.

They made a film about what happened next will talk to him our latest tech leader profile looks at Leanne when Fung the man behind the Chinese AI chatbot.

What is the trump administration makes cuts to America state-funded broadcasters we're joined by the head of one of them from Radio free Asia one of the big story has been labour's welfare reforms including savings that will take 5 billion lb out of the welfare budget is a policy that Keir starmer new would come in for criticism including from some of his ranks and so it has part of the equation when introducing high profile and potentially controversial reforms such as this is the media strategy.

Let's look at how labour approached this time with the help of times Radio breakfast presenter Kate McCann who knows the brief very well having covered politics talk to you by Sky News and the Daily Telegraph before x radio ok.

Thank you for joining us on the media show I wonder how do you think the government would prepare for a moment such as this any major policy change of a relatively new?

When is a big moment but for a Labour government changing welfare, it's even bigger than for most other things and especially since the Keir starmer knows that this wasn't one of the main points in Parties manifesto, so it's not something that voters have really very much awareness of when it comes to how they were casting their ballot last time around I think the problem for Keir starmer is that it's all set context of the spending review and crucially an increase in defence spending.

So how would they have gone about preparing for it? Well, they have to really tried a fine line between making it look like this is all about saving money and you know values essentially and that's what's been really difficult for Labour and I think that's why they maybe not quite got this right and as they prepare for that moment.

Would they start calling around particular journalist to give the different points of emphasis that they hope will come through in the coverage of something called kite-flying governments.

Do this no matter what the policy is and by the

May be leaking a bit of the policy out suggesting it to a couple of different publications essentially to see how it lands and that's his much for the reaction from your own side as it is from the general public take the example of freezing Pip which didn't come off in the end, but there's a suggestion that maybe that was part of the original plans has been around two weeks of conversation about that policy and a lot of blood from the left wing of the Labour Party and actually many in the centre ground of Labour and say the party would have known the centre number 10 would have known that was not going to go down well and then you can make a decision a kiss and his team decided not to go ahead with that and that's how much bigger question I think for the prime minister and his cabinet about what kind of story are you trying to tell her because labour majority.

You are a brand new government at the start of a parliament if you want to make a big change in labour is arguing that this is a reorganisation of the welfare state now would be the time.

And many people are looking at this and saying well 5 billion in the context of this building 100 billion by 2030.

It's not really that big of a change in a minute ok.

We're going to look at how labour is approached The Dimension of its media strategy, but in terms of the biggest tablet institutions of the British Media in particular the newspapers will there be a particular emphasis on certain newspapers according to the subject according to the policy you can see how it's Play-Doh after the announcement can't you just divided the the right-wing press are not happy because these changes for them.

Don't go far enough only have to look at some of the front pages today to see that.

It's really it's upset those newspapers you feel that this is not really a Labour government at all.

It's not what they expect from a Labour government in terms of how it's gone down.

I wouldn't say I mean it's probably not some of the front pages that they would have wanted although they will have to wait and see for the full numbers in the spending review but in terms of preparing often governments will speak.

Sutton journalist at certain publications because they know those journalism more likely to give whichever element the government is selling a fair hearing so they can try and get the conversation going with the people argue that this is exactly how you should make policy incidentally you should talk about it publicly so that everybody knows what's coming.

I think what's different in this case is at the Labour government.

It's a Wi-Fi policy and really nobody at the moment knows exactly where these cuts are going to fall so what you're left with is a lot of people feeling very uneasy both inside the Labour Party and around the country saying will am I going to be cut and I don't think that's a very comfortable position for labour right now ok? You're describing how the media coverage has gone after the details of this policy shift were announced help us understand style of this particular Labour government when it comes to the media every government has its own way of dealing with the main reporters the main outlets that it likes to focus on.

How does this government operated a on the phone?

You know influence in one Way Or Another your coverage and lots of other coverage.

That is how governments operate in terms of negotiating with and talking to and discussing with physical report is certainly I think this government being a Labour government recognised early on that it wanted to what it wants to work with a Daily Mail and the Sun newspaper and so you started to see articles appearing from play Starman others and the Home Secretary to Yvette Cooper stories that maybe people wouldn't have expected from this labour governments.

I think they've tried to ensure that the coverage from those sections of the media was favourable.

I think there has been some questions of late.

The promise.

I did quite a big speech at the end of last week where he announced all week or so ago when he announced the end of NHS England on that particular not all of the median all of the press gallery the political process when Fighters and I think that's caused some people to ask why is it right for announcing that big tree made without a full press pack in attendance and was.

Does an explanation offered by the government felt that they had given a fair answers to questions of those who were in the room and had given an opportunity for people who were there to ask but I think it's done this week.

We say we would want more people in the room and more questions when we go on forever if we could so I think we would have wanted my accent you know we can laugh about it, but it is an important point governments can't and shouldn't of speech is it shouldn't be something that happens and I think you know for Political journalists especially that something that that many of us to keep an eye on the sun and the male and the fact that the government is sorted greengage jam on some of the recent stories that we're discussing you used to work at the Daily Telegraph of paper which normally aligns with the Conservatives how do papers who don't normally support the Labour Party how do you think they react when the Labour Party calls up and says look you're interested in running an article by one of our most senior Cabinet ministers or even by the Prime Minister or would like to talk to you about.

Get a story and give you a scoop is there an actual reticence to do that orders the male the Sunday Telegraph SIA SIA benefit they're to newspapers will always welcome an article by a prime minister know what government that Prime Minister put is leading at the time.

I think what's interesting at the moment is the balance of power is shifting.

Isn't it? And so you might expect that our Prime Minister in the position kissed Amazon you know very strong brand new government is not going to be election for quite some time then maybe he wouldn't be as well.

We don't have to be as worried about some of those sections of the press as maybe prime ministers have been in the past, but I think was close to me.

Is that number 10 very much is they do care quite a lot about the headlines.

They care about how these stories play out and so they do want to work with those papers where perhaps you wouldn't think they were naturally aligned anything for this government.

Look at some of the things.

It's been doing on immigration for example talking tough on deporting foreign criminals and with the numbers match up.

That's another thing but you know they are they are working that operating in an environment where there.

Attractive to the Telegraph the Daily Mail to the sun and other papers where maybe other labour Jeremy Corbyn government for example wouldn't have naturally work, so well.

I think the bigger bigger when you step back is this is a very powerful Prime Minister does he really need the Press in the same way that others have potentially no, but it'll be able to sell a story and when I said at the Beginning that's why I think there's been a welfare reforms.

I'm not sure labour has a convincing story apps on whether they're doing this to cut money or they're doing it because they believe in the Reform and when you don't have that story and there's a gap that's when you get people I left of your party or from the right saying hang on a minute.

We're not sure about this.

We don't think it's the right choice Kate McCann from times radio.

Please do stay with us, but we were talking there about the so-called Legacy outlets many look at how this is also playing out on social media with Sophia Smith galer is a writer and social media expert hello severe hello.

Hi, how do you think labour?

Indicated this policy these welfare changes these plans on social media.

The social media strategy that we have been seen from the Labour Party for some time out not only post-election but before the election as well.

We're not really seeing content being posted on labour social media accounts or individual politicians social media accounts that are particularly native organic the platforms because it's so different trying to Lance and tell and create discourse around something like policy change on social you just been describing what I buy knowing in public relations.

They talk about speaking to friendlies and making dropping a story here or there with a newspaper that you know you've got your homework best of the algorithm on tiktok or Instagram certainly not a friendly environment and definitely not for a politician.

These are platforms when not only.

Do audiences take very seriously but it's video presented in a certain way speaking directly to you feeling with you and we're not seen that kind of video of being crafted by crafted really quite any major labour politician Downing Street have recently set up a new digital unit to work with influencers and creators in an attempt to promote the government on tiktok and Instagram is that thing is it too early to judge that and other policy rollouts in terms of whether that's helping or are you saying it isn't helping yet because it's not working don't forget helping you really fascinated by this conversation.

I would invite them along with me to open up for example the Labour Party's Instagram account and look at it with me.

You will notice there is currently.

It's of alleged influences that labour has a baby working read it doesn't mean they haven't worked with them all in another way and perhaps the contact might be on those accounts.

I have not seen her to be perfectly honest with you if I'm looking at the page right now.

I'm not seeing any I'm not seeing anyone that back at me.

It's a French encounters.

I'm looking at these images on it and it doesn't look anything like the kind of organic content we naturally turn to when we use the platform where personalities position about pretty much and politicians have I can't time with this important to acknowledge that a political party basically a brand on social media.

Just like a news publication with B&B challenging to engage with users on a platform for it's not brand people want it's people.

It's other human beings politician isn't presenting them.

They don't have a very hard time at doing anything on social media nevermind attempting to court a positive reaction for a massive policy change the only videos that have come across social media that are connected to the policy change this week have been created and activists and also see politics the social media first Newsround either explaining what has happened because the politicians have not published video explainers explaining what happens if they've left it to create a Xanax and people being extremely distressed worried that the second disabled will be left worse after that is all I can't say I've seen any any clearer ok more broadly I suppose what you're saying is if they can crack it and obviously isn't it social medias got to be a golden opportunity for politicians.

Only if they can crack it, is there anybody if you're doing that individuals are there individual politicians that you point to the are the smaller parties better at it for example do the main political parties tend to get wrong aside from your brand, but you can't sell your brand properly.

Is it just there aren't enough authentic politicians out there who can understand how to do this stuff.

I don't think it's not understanding how to do.

It is having a resourcing for it and the busiest politician may find that they don't really have much time in there.

Very busy schedules portion of let's say 7:40 for the vertical video explainer that should never be scripted by someone in their team when I skipped a minute and a Half Men explained it takes me so I think he and .6 minutes in a schedule.

If it means that not only going to reach.

Why don't you show?

This information being accessible Sophia I'm afraid of breaking up there Sophie will just see if we can get your line back because we can't hear you properly.

I'm afraid yeah.

Sorry so we'll just see if we can sort that out Kate McCann from times radio is listening and Kate I wonder if one of the challenges of social media for politicians is that generally the approach to the media has been one of control and really if you're on social media routinely in your individual politicians within your party a given free rein to say what they feel and to post what they like.

You are losing control to a degree that could be uncomfortable to the party.

Just a week or so ago now.

I think that not everybody needs to know all of your thoughts in real time on Donald Trump and I think you know social media platforms present a huge problem under Sophie

An opportunity for politicians, but you have to be very clear about your message and what you want to communicate and I think with a policy like the welfare reforms not only is the government not very clear the MPs are not entirely clear and we don't have the numbers.

I can't stress this enough.

We do not have at the moment and Impact Assessment all the phone numbers detailing where these cuts are going to fall and well and you know people might say well.

That's because of waiting for the spring statement, but if you are a labour MP speaking to your constituents all this week's hearing those stories about people potentially losing lots of money.

This is not going to be going to want to get on social media post about in a light-hearted or happy way because it just doesn't reflect the reality there is no attention isn't there Kate in that you're saying they need to get their message lined up.

They need to make they're all same similar things but we've seen situations in the US in particular.

Where clearly a message is gone out to a group of politicians who are largely on the same side on this year and they are all treated either.

Little words or something very similar and everyone online notices so there's a a slight tension between the message discipline that you say could be desirable for the political party and the fact that sometimes that can go down very well with people who are consuming all sorts of content in a very very authentic environments such as social media angry and I'm so Sophia would say doesn't work well.

I'm social media exactly as you say if you've got 25 MPs or treating after pmqs for example that was a great pmqs by my leader it just it doesn't work.

It's not genuine what I'm talking about.

It's something much bigger than that which is a direction of travel.

It's leadership.

It's a party that understands a government that understands the reason we doing this is this and this is going out come of it and I think at the moment with welfare.

That is not entirely clear and I think we've now got back brilliantly Sophia Smith galer artech commentator and general brilliant person who disappeared.

Just for a brief minute, but severe welcome back to the media.

I hope you can hear us just you were talking before we got cut off about politicians.

It takes time to do this stuff, but they need to time I suppose anybody listening or think about the American comparison will think about the fact that Donald Trump JD Vance they clearly make time for social media and that has stood them in very good stead over the last month's absolutely I've been sitting in one of those really long podcast recordings that President Trump make the time for when he was courting different voices and places to appear on he made it must have been an extremely hectic Media schedule to do these things that the great advantage with making the most engaging format on social media today which is the vertical 90-second format is it doesn't actually take that much time my goodness when you know the change your going to announce in advance better you can actually press.

You can even challenge some of the criticism or push back that frankly used to be anticipating before that before that announcement goes out.

We're not really seeing any kind of strategy on that front from the Labour Party Sophia Smith galer.

Thank you very much for that very interesting.

Thank you very much to you too.

I must ask you before you go spoken to your number of times and you're now not long into your new job is breakfast presenter on times radio.

How does being a presenter every morning compare with covering politics full time I'm still doing just about the amount of Reading I was doing before but I'm not getting up at 3 in the morning.

That's the main difference even more grateful that you've got made time for us now that we know you've been up since 3 in the morning.

Thank you for having me please come back on the Times Radio breakfast presenter and Sophia

Gala the Tech commentator now one of the many cuts, but the Donald Trump administration is making to federal spending is falling on the US agency for Global Media this is the agency that oversees and funds numerous press outlets including the voice of America Radio free Europe and Radio free Asia more than 1000 employees voice of America been placed on leave funding for the Europe and radio liberty and Radio free Asia has been terminated Trump is called voice of America radical propaganda, and he's appointed a staunch loyalist Kari Lake special advisor, she posted a video this week talking about voice of America's offices here's a clip.

I can tell you that this building is a colossal waste of money in this building fancy conference rooms with all the windows 26 conference rooms at least that's what I'm counting in this building there are four Bridge

Mass of waterfalls Italian marble finishes everywhere leather Furnishings all of this being paid for by the American taxpayers well the details on that video are being contested the former a former chief financial officer to the US agency for Global Media told NPR that's a bunch of lies and misinformation coming out of her mouth in fact.

It's probably one of the best deal struck by a tenant in DC history is president of Radio free Asia and joins us from Washington welcome to the media shobe you thank you so much for having you're very welcome first of all just explain what radio free Asia is for those who never heard of it.

Just some up what you're trying to achieve sure so we were created after the time in maths and our mission is to give people inside China and other authoritarian countries in Asia access to the truth for an unbiased answer.

So beginning with acting as a counter to the lies propagated by the CCP so idea.

Yes, sorry that I do with a policy objectives of the US government not by propaganda rising to these foreign audiences about us policies, but rather just support the spread of the intrinsic democratic values of the US by giving them access to the truth of a what was happening inside their own countries and is it just China your broadcasting in a where do you broadcast on and on what platforms rebroadcast all over China in Mandarin Cantonese to Ben and we have the only uyghur service in the world that's that's not that's not day Chinese state media and then we broadcasts in in Southeast Asia so we broadcast in Cambodia Vietnam

Myanmar we also broadcast into North Korea and so therefore that's a lot of places your broadcasting as you say giving people access to the trees is your claim but what are for Donald Trump's cuts to begin with you know it's heartbreaking to me to think about you not being heard of this organisation that comprises of amazing journalist who come countries in Asia where free speech is muzzled and they know how important it is to China by into these dark places they continue to watch a do this reporting even in the face of great risk to them and their families, so it's heartbreaking to me that they may actually be silenced by our own government to fighting to the closest town and is that the situation can you call how much are losing? It is bad it how will it affect you? Are you shutting down from now now.

We are just heading to furlough about 75% of our staff.

We just info.

This morning they are you know the idea is that we are doing this as we launch a challenge 2020 the formation of our client and we are hoping that were able to bring you some if not most of them back on and if we if we get our our funding.

I'm just follow you mean continue to pay them.

We will not be able to continue to pay them or try to conserve the cash that we have in the face of not receiving any more funding we are not worth paying there.

You know there are there health insurance and benefits in the meantime by Joe but they are going without pay and what sort of challenge.

Are you considering to this? I saw that Radio free Europe my delivered yesterday, but it's suing the trump administration.

Will you follow so much? I won't go to the details of our legal strategy but

Many of the same details in the in our seas apart as well and are you looking as well at different funding models and could you make up the funds with philanthropy? I don't think so we are definitely looking into that OK and when it comes to your situation the fact that you are a 100% funded by the US government you talk about spreading us values people listening thing ok? Well.

Are you editorially independent? Yes, there is a strict firewall that exist between us and all the broadcast in the US government.

We were created that way exactly to prevent any any influence from the government into our editorial decision so we are.

To be completely editorial editorially independent and are you transparent about your funding is it clear where the money is going and how much yes indeed, how much do you get in the way does it go or we get 60 million years right now.

It's changes of the year and I would add that.

This is a drop in the back of the US the US budget and you know it certainly if you look at it compared to what is putting into its global Media influence strategy every year I mean it's billions of dollars used to drop in the budget the US budget and clearly in those terms.

It is but obviously 60 million dollars also sounds like a lot of money and one of the things that the executive Order is talking about is eliminating waste.

How do you measure your impact and the value to the taxpayer?

Quantify that many people in the US government and elsewhere that we are one of the most low-cost Instruments of soft power for the US I mean we are key to the national Security strategy one of the most expensive tools and pushing back against the CCP in the information space you know as you know.

It's is so important right now 22.

You know the global fight against our adversaries.

How do you know I just wonder how you measure that you say effective tools to push back, but how do you say that well, so so a number of different ways I mean so to begin with we look at how we break the story then become global a story so for example.

We were the first to expose what channel was doing in xinjiang onto the week or so back in 2017.

Reporters here who you know or sitting in DC thousands of miles away, but they're doing basically metro Report issue.

Leather reporting their calling hundreds of police stations are they are they know how to connect because they come from these places so so in the case of the weakest story we were the ones who broke it was then he then it was by global media and it lead to to the US government actually the trump administration to begin with doing it a genocide.

So you know that is just one small where were the only independent Media that is still working on the ground in Myanmar after the cool.

We have brave journalist who are going there unnamed, but they're they're still recording for us there and many of them are actually in hiding doing that but you know they get stories like you know because we have the credibility.

One of the journalist was given the cell phone that soldier soldier had dropped and basically containing all these videos and images of committing war crimes along with his soldier body is taking selfies and and we verified that information that there had been in the village and we put it out and we're the only voices that are able to do that.

I'm both of those examples are incredibly important stories to break journalistic and ever as I wonder whether you feel comfortable being though at all of us soft power is that how you see yourself, but we but the reason we were created was to give this a this opportunity for prepress two countries in Asia that that that.

Have it you know we are the only you know people's are shining a light into these dark corners in these authoritarian countries and so I think that is the most important service that we do you know I think there was a reason that we are created by the US Congress as a tool of soft power, but that is not how we define you know most fundamentally ok babe.

Thank you so much present of Radio free Asia thank you will next speak to Jennifer riedel associate professor of Communications at Syracuse university in the USA professor goes been listening for the last few minutes.

What do you make of what you've just heard you think there is a justification for Global broadcast the nature of voice of America or radio free Asia

Here to really raise awareness about the risks of the funding behind US state Media evolution over time especially since it was modernising 20120 you and that we call this the US agency for Global Media is new used to be controlled by the broadcasting for a governors Wi-Fi Paris in panel today the president the United States trump today or buying in the last President Trump before that you can start to see you like when a president can appoint the CEO they have an incredible amount is influence over the media channels are a baby one of them so again.

You know one reason why she might even be here today is because you know again.

There is back and fresh for this influence and for me.

I just struggle when this is presented abroad as news as journalism.

I believe that the boundary between the

The Entity that we can see is collapsing so I know we have times China correspondent coming on soon.

I'm glad they're still private entities that are in other countries requiring so that we don't have the overall.

I am like RFA understand the fundamental idea of the state being in Alton this type of Media or is your issue with the way that it's currently being done by the US is there a model of this that would work for you.

I'll governments do public diplomacy.

This is the current manifestation and voice of America radio player radio Liberty they just coming under centralised control so there's just a lot of potential for the government to influence and you know any funding from the United States as you know it before this is Holy funded by commas.

This is essentially being funny.

Santa Cruz and deciding what they want to project out one reason why isn't my pressure is the first time using office heater control voice of America the Independent firewall is it just doesn't it doesn't exist but I can ask you about that because the agency for Global media says there's a protective to insulate their broadcasters their content and start of the little and other such a CD of the times of London know that also the the New York Times as well, but do not accept that there are some journalistic missions which are potentially difficult to fun especially given the pressure on a variety of Media business models at the moment in some cases the state could support that kind of Media status in the media.

Especially, when is this to record US state Media different flavour it's not independent news.

We have you holding power to account in the United States we think about us Watchdog to stay they have an agenda and I think that would be beneficial to people around the world if there was released more transparency, but also the change when it was modernised means a lot of this content is now available to American to be honest.

Just some of these entities like voice of America present.

It's very different it's very different.

I'm interested in your fuse on what channel is just said they were talking about a lot more potential for the government to influence and thank you for this.

Give me an example of a reporting that has been influenced by the government.

It's more than just the content little that's me where people Focuses this type of new story.

I'm finding out the there are there's influence that it goes beyond just the individual article about the fact that the president United States CEO of Us agency for Global media and it's influence on power.

So you should read the statute if you if you have actually actually have time.

I'm in an expert actually I'm glad the abuse Santa really.

Hope you're up in 2018 when using a legal Facebook ads in American legally under the water and I do know and I'm actually been exposed that well.

They're there a firewall is as well.

Strong right now in Portugal legal challenge is is to any US government attempt to to go and Jennifer can I ask you one further question which is you'll be aware that there are many of the most powerful countries in the world Russia and china being to pour a huge amounts of money into Media which they hope will their perspectives around the world is it your believe then that while that carries on by the Russians the Chinese and others the America and other Western countries should not anyway support media around the world.

I don't think I've just found over the years at what speed the does can be reformed and at the end of transparency for people around the world including Americans now who were getting exposed to this.

The really understand that this is the US government that is speaking to that might be that is really boring and every time a new ministration comes and they don't reform the US Media in America again because each present comes down and it comes in and I like how can I use this medium or both of you? Thank you very much indeed for sharing both of your perspective that Jennifer Grey Court associate professor of Communications at Syracuse university and be fun president of Radio free Asia but it is worth putting this into further international context because as we were discussing there because it stands for these agencies has been celebrated by Russian and Chinese state Media the editor-in-chief of the Russian state broadcaster article than awesome decision by trump Beijing state newspaper.

Open the cats calling voice of America a lie factory and I'm delighted to say withdrawing from Beijing by Richard Spencer who is trying to call respond at the Times Richard thank you so much for sparring up sometime.

Hi, how are you? Hi there very well.

Thank you and even better now.

You're here.

You've been a foreign correspondent in countries.

Where usagm outlets operate you were previous correspondence.

How have you observe the impact of outlets like radio free Asia where you are.

So slightly George drops.

Someone I know what I mean is a genus.

I just like to say I don't have anyone have faith in me.

I'm not a religion there isn't some absolute standard of truth and independence that we aspire to that's not how journalism works is not how the world works.

We should all be treated with sketches and

Private or government or the BBC or whatever I think all the journalist.

I know Jonas Who work for all these organisations or have worked for voice of America Radio 3 Radio 3 day.

I think there's two ways in which the important one is is yes getting news in two countries which was don't have a plural Media trying to look at look at it rather instead of using braille loaded words like free video reverses propaganda, or just think of it as a plural Media different voices and indeed one of the many messages.

I've had about about about these decisions is a Chinese distant living in London who said it was a voice of America who told him that there was an alternative to the to the Chinese Communist Party so.

Messages do get inside of windows are jammed broadcast in China and I imagine somebody other countries that they find mentioned and Barroso this we live in a global Media world now global ecosystem to use the 21st as I said you know when one of her great reporters breaks the story you know where we are leap on it and when we all follow it up.

We don't have the resources when I was great as he says.

I'm very lucky to be a phone call from very lucky that my newspaper put still puts resources into sending me to China and the places which is quite expensive but I can't you know be everywhere and we we we offer and call from the 2nd of parasites to be all sorts of feed off.

Local media and Radio free Asia in my part of the world provides voices that are not provided by by state Media which is the only allowed in China so you're saying better Radio free Asia a key part of the ecosystem to use a trendy phrase, but what has been there for the reaction where you are the reaction in to the trump administrations decision partly because you know a critical Voice has been shut down.

So sorry I said that and but they're also very delighted the their narrative has been brought to be like is there now if it was always been a while.

You know you can accuse US state Media you can accuse Chinese state TV or cgtn there international are more Russia today.

I've been propaganda, but voice of America

BBC as they would outside the adding that just propaganda as well and here we have America saying yes you're right.

It's just doing American propaganda service so delighted on two levels basic practical level fuel critical stories will be told about China and Russia are the countries and they're also delighted that if you like their broader narrative was being confirmed that they would see it Richard thank you very much for your help on that story you're going to stay with us because this week in the latest tech pro series with profiling Liang Wen fun the founder of deepsea.

That's the Chinese AI company that made global headlines and call Sam us tech stocks to sync at the beginning of the year after it released arrival to the big us chatbot models, but it was developed at a fraction of the cost which is seen as being bad news.

Open AI Google anthropic and others as we were saying that the Times China correspondent.

I think you have particular insight into how he is fated in because I think you visited his hometown last week.

What what did you find what I do? You know I think he's a fascinating character.

I think it's the fascinating story the story of China tech and its relationship to to the American tech industry.

Is is one of the crucial stories of our time? I think it's only looking into the future looking into whether an economically and politically and in terms of soft power is all the things we were talking about as a catch up with America if you like and overtake it mean.

They're putting a lot of face into the China tech industry and of course it is advancing very fast you know you've already seen is it for example of you know in electric cars.

Tesla was overtaken last year by by Dr Chinese brand is the biggest selling electric car maker in the world we know they control a lot of greentech.

They got her sort of 8% share of the solar panel market now.

You know their trying to compete at these this very high n-tec like computer chips and now AI and interesting because he is in some ways and archetypal bro.

He's a he's a very easy figure who had recognised if he was American as being out.

You know very classic example of about nerdy science grad who has gone off with some friends not quite so they opened in his parents garage, but very much for the at a small bit of small and really focused on with this one issue.

He really wanted to make Chinese AI competitive with American Dad I'll you wanted to.

You wanted to sort of go beyond the side of letting America develop the innovative technology and copy it he wanted to sort of going at first principles and really and his village and the whole story in itself.

It's a fishing busy.

It's a fish farming Village surrounded by fish farms in the Frost in a countryside not far from the Vietnamese border.

He went to the local primary school and his dad was a primary to post primary school teachers and they moved to a bigger town nearby you went to the most prestigious state secondary school in that sort of time that you had never heard of cold which one is a medium-sized Chinese City University which is a good university and studied computer science there left and then set up this company and which is now you should have been breaking down the doors around the world.

It's a great story is a great story and presumably he is very well known in China and of course now around the world.

Just paint a picture of briefly if you could have Chinese equivalent is like where how would that work? Where is that? Is it is it like Silicon Valley in a particular place or more spread out on that so I'm actually until we order Chinese people and I mean well no now.

You know the tourist you get tours to his home Village now and buy souvenirs in by Leanne £1 souvenirs in his Village it so it's incredible locations really I mean it's for China Silicon Valley and one the one that he's come out of the song and deep sea is is almost consciously mould on silicone.

And it's a rounders University you went to judge and universes not very famous University outside China but he has a green Wrexham reputation inside China science and technology and its benefited from a film called a bar that you might have heard of China's biggest on a really a Jack Ma Alibaba which is an online trading platform slightly inspired by Amazon and it became is massive global company Alibaba he is from Hangzhou he went to the university in Hangzhou you went to the local teaching University where he was trying to be an English teacher originally and he's put a lot of money into for the plant is giving money to judge and University and other universities in Hangzhou stem and the universities of work very closely with the local government local.

Give startups you know rent subsidy you know special special tax breaks, so they created an ecosystem to use that phrase again.

Sorry around a Jag University a bit like stamfords in in America it's it's breeding tech entrepreneur and is pumping out startup I doing everything from sort of making robot dogs 2 videogame 22228.

Did you mention that local governments been involved in developing that eco.com around the university to use the phrase again but what about the national government is there a political dimension to Leanne when firms success is the Chinese communist party's sort to sunway associate itself with what is achieved absolutely 100% I mean there.

There is there is much less divide between politics business and everything else and China

He is a as far as I know he is just a genuine techno if you look at the interviews he gave before he became famous.

He is going right the details of what he wants to achieve in AI development.

It's now come to fruition, but now it has you know he was invited along with other tech leaders to a big summit president Xi Jinping in February he was sort of say yes, we're going to give you all the support.

You need we really want us to make text the centrepiece of our next stage of economic growth in the last few years.

There are signs of some of the old models of Chinese development of drawn to a close if you like, you know there was a lot of real estate developers in the last 2 years in the real estate market collapsed in the last couple of years and is and in terms of exports, which are

Really key to China tariffs, so so present.

She is really gets of leaping on that bandwagon.

It sounds like it's so jumping.

We've just one more subjects you want to talk about before the end of the hour, but thank you very much need to spend so much time with us.

We appreciate your help on both stories that switch and Spencer times at the China correspondent of the times that subject is Dan Reed Jackson documentary the first there was released in 2019 alleged child abuse by Michael Jackson and caused a Sensation the two-part leaving Neverland 4 hours and became hbos most watched documentary and won a prestigious Emmy Award at centred on Wade Robson and James safechuck who accused the singer of sexually abusing them starting when they were and 11 years old in the UK it was broadcast on Channel 4 now Dan Reed is back with a new film the second and what we're told will be leaving Neverland trilogy and this one is about The Fallout

when's decision to go public in that first documentary and their long quest to get their cases to trial let's get a favour.

This is James safechuck speaking I was disconnected from myself in the past as little James does you blame yourself for the abuse.

And yeah a terrible feeling.

I wanted to fight for little James

I want to fight for him in five for myself will leaving Neverland to surviving Michael Jackson was released yesterday on Channel 4 and Dan Reed is with us now hello Dan just explain first of all going back to the original documentary back in 2019 the impact that it had when it first aired.

Will it really go bang because no one ever put any of the children have grown up but I know no one would ever put any of Michael Jackson's accusers on on camera the first time that anyone had heard them speak and these are too young man who who will not these were not particularly well-known accuses you know the most high-profile weather child at the centre of the criminal trial 2580 Charlie with paid after the 19th so that it was it was a bit of a surprise.

It's so come out of nowhere and it was you just explain.

Half the people that I had spoken to before release were like heaven knows he was a bit of a pedo.

So that people don't do that sort of breastfeeding and some things amination and have not seen this sort of lasted.

You know that died down after about a year of follow-up.

Well.

You know this is this is stepping stone from as I was described as a small film.

It's not supposed to be you know on the scale of hours.

It's not for as long as the waves and James who is the protagonist of the first film there attempts to their day in court and really it's a story of this sort of roller coaster that ends in Wade and James being able to go to trial it's not.

The story of the trial and obviously everybody listening will know Michael Jackson is no longer around so in terms of the Jackson side and their perspective.

How do you as a filmmaker go about approaching them? And what was the response? What's been there response when you have all the first film was being one-sided because we didn't interview members of Jackson's family of his legal team talking about would have nice guy.

He was which seem to be completely irrelevant to the crime committed during closed doors, but you might suppose that people might say you're not looking for him being a nice guy you looking for people who said this isn't true.

I mean how would people know whether it's true or not on the steering the bedroom.

That's the whole thing you know it's think about any sexual sexual crime is you know it might be videos but in Uno back in 1987 to 1991 which is a

Doing a video so when people talk about proof what what does proof look like the Jackson begging I'm begging you because I've had a couple of had a meeting with them and then you know they went silent to put your side of the story.

I want to know why you think these two line on tonight looks like from your point of view and they just said no and then they sort of seeing the phone wasn't box me on his way into call samy still begging so yeah, they just didn't decide because I think it's quite so the week round and obviously about the backlash that the two men face but you've also face a backlash from Jackson fans, even received death threats.

I think I always get asked about this and

Julia be complacent stupid not to take different seriously and I have had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of difference many of them from sort of you know badly misspelt from is in China in so I am not living in fear or in hiding but yeah, it's been on the back last people so is fancy Michael Jackson's you know glass for me.

I'm just in the last 30 seconds or so we have left you alluded to a third film that might get made.

When do you think you'll be able to complete that 2027 realistic in the 12th schedule for November 2020 6th? I would love to get cameras in court.

I think I've been amazing showdown.

It will be the first time that really people have the chance to look at st.

James's claims and bring evidence and testimony.

What have you don't know if you can fill in the gift of the judge and we don't even know which judge is going to be trying that case.

But will it be you or will you be part of a broader group of Media producers who won at I hope I'm really I need any kind but no typically if they let one in they tend to let more in as well.

Thank you very much indeed leaving Neverland to surviving Michael Jackson is available from Channel 4 now for this week.

Thank you to all our guests.

Thank you very much to all of you for your company but from Ros and for me goodbye.

Bye.

Bye.