Read this: Jimmy Lai - media tycoon and political prisoner, the new Wargame podcast, Tattle Life gossip website

Music Radio podcasts and Katie razzall and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 Today 4 years after Jimmy Lai Hong kong-based newspaper apple daily was forcibly shut down to talk to his son about the ongoing imprisonment of the media tycoon after one couple when libel damages against the gossip website tattle life a trolls paradise the sum of called it.

The end of anonymous trolling online and why is Netflix a strimmer embracing traditional linear TV all that is to come fast we're going to look at a run and a look behind the scenes at a media story unfolding here in the UK because journalist working for the BBC Persian news service in London so they're using an escalating campaign of intimidation bbcpersian is banned in Iran where it says it reaches 13 million people a week and I'm joining now in the studio by bbcpersian corresponding went Ashdene hello meringue.

Thank you so much for coming in this is obviously a serious story we have covered in the past here on the media show but just explain to us.

Can you sort of issues that staff are facing everything when me or any other colleagues come to work they have.

Forget that they have family members in Iran because what we do in your professional capacity as BBC journalist, but we write what we say on the could have a huge impact on her family members.

They would pay a price for that.

I give you a quick part of history so in Iran state has a monopoly on so no private TV or radio channel so when in 2009 BBC launch BBC Persian TV for the first time Iranians could see prefer accurate impartial news on TV and understated and like that so it's started at their campaign of harassment and persecution and grew and grew and grew and what is happening as the director-general of the BBC recently said in a statement is a psychological warfare as the nuj said then.

Journalists in the UK It's proxy punishment basically, they punish or family members are parents or siblings even your in-laws for the job that we do according to BBC values and standards that must be so difficult.

Can you describe if you can any of the situations any of the specifics around what they are doing to the families? What are they telling the families? What are they doing to them? Cos I read a story the other day about a family have been arrested.

Yes, we have had the rest.

We have had quite a number of families and family members wider family members you know being summoned by the intelligence services being threatened with losing jobs losing their livelihood losing their losing their property and also in the past 3-years, London

And the UK isn't safe for us either we don't save in your we're not safe in London we don't feel safe in London because as you know there has been plots against journalist and dissidents and we have been advised to take security measures to protect ourselves even though that we work in the same building we in the same City it's not safe for us and if it's you have the persecution of the families in Iran have punishment of the families in Iran which in recent has a started to escalate to a larger number of families and a large number of people in families and more serious threats and actually since the war with Israel started.

It hasn't come down.

It has actually taken the dark turn and what sort of things.

Is it if you don't mind me asking as I said we have had

Show me the members parents for example summoned and then they are told that your your daughter your son works for BBC Persian is is taking action against the national security and you'll have to ask them to leave the BBC stopped working as a journalist and then if you don't do that, we are coming after you have had parents you know being arrested as I said some have lost their jobs and in recent months.

This has grown you had like any family member who left the wrong when they come back the they are asked to there us to go to the local passport office where intelligence agents.

You know meet them and interrogating for hours and hours of you're talking about elderly Palin disabled parents you know.

And it's trying to stop us to our job and what we do isn't different from but you do or anyone else in the BBC does you know trying to be trusted you're trying to provide trusted news for everyone not just one segment of the population you know in the first few days of the war our Instagram page that usually has 22 actually has gone up to 23 million followers reached over 32 million people and this is like half the population in Iran and they come to us for trusted news and that is what the Islamic Republic doesn't like because they can't label us as like appointments or enemies of the state so people can trust us from across the political spectrum, so that's why they're coming after a steroid.

Stop doing your job and the BBC's complain to the Iranian government and early this month submit an appeal to the UN special rapporteurs asking them to intervene, but what kind of an impact does it have on you all is it clearly you are brave journalist wanting to bring trusted news to Iran and wider but this must have a terrible personal impact as I said we try to forget if you have families when we are doing our job.

Otherwise we wouldn't be able to do that if if I had to think that what I am what I'm saying or what I'm writing is going to have an impact if my mum is going to pay a price for that.

I wouldn't be able to do my job, but we do our job because we yourself as a professional journalist doing a public service you know over the past 1213 days my colleagues have been pulling 16 hours 7.

Irish shapes, you know trying to stretch ourselves as much as I can to bring people accurate news and to serve everyone not just your own audience but you may seem my colleagues across the BBC on Today programme on 1:00 news and 6:00 news elsewhere.

We are trying to give an accurate picture of what is happening in Iran because you know the war did have a huge impact in Iran and Iranian people and we are even though that we are based in London using the skills and knowledge in terms of verifying and authenticating videos and pictures that you see people post on social media.

So have a very key role to play of course in that.

I'm interested the BBC News chief international correspondent.

Lyse doucet has actually been allowed into around recently she's filing a report today, but it's on.

None of my reports appear on BBC Persian service is very unusual for the BBC to be granted access.

It's very unusual for all for a media 2BX to run and even when they go in.

They always have someone with them and they can't report freely but the conditions that have been set for a lift to set and her team is something that has been set for every foreign Media outlets in Iran since 2009 so reuters news agency.

Other news agencies or any TV channel that is filing videos from Iran is a specifically banned from sharing that would be because they reinstate things that if they stop us accessing you know this these videos then we wouldn't have appeal but the reason why we have appeal to many reindeers.

Across the political spectrum because it's not a black and white story if there are no range of the range of views from people who support the regime people who support regime change and people who are worried about you know the impact of the war on them and don't believe that.

It is going to have a have a positive impact on their lives.

We are trying to serve all of them and we're trying to have the first of all of them on that point.

I just said BBC spokesperson said we're being transparent with audiences by making clear and I'll cover it at least he said he's allowed to report in Iran on condition that none of the reports used on the BBC Persian service this law from Iranian authorities applies to all international media agencies operating in Iran and the BBC is committed to comply with the laws of countries we report on Thursday thank you so much for coming and sharing your story and the story of other journalist at the BBC Persian service with us.

We really appreciate it we are.

Starts to stick with a round oh because the NATO summit is winding up in The Hague this afternoon with a course the Iran Israel conflict dominating the headlines and apparently off the Mark by the NATO secretary-general raising eyebrows have a listen to this from a press conference between Mark Russia and Donald Trump as the US president talks about the two countries in the schoolyard.

You know the answer to 3 minutes daddy has to use strong language does Mark retable joining us from the summit News Centre is Sky News defence and security at Deborah Haynes welcome Deborah hi there.

It's great to have you talked about much more than who's the daddy of course, but let's start with it.

How is that comment by Mark Ritter going down with a media? Has it been reported? I mean we were we were.

Side by the end of summit press conference that happens you basically have this maybe know some it's all the leaders get together everyone scrambles to try to get comments from them and actually what you heard was that through on the sidelines chat between micro and Donald Trump which happened before or during the the main proceedings and they lock themselves into this big button decided statement that and then they come out and meet the press.

So you have is always very choreograph.

You have Mark Ritter he does the end of summit press conference and then always the main event is then the US president and clearly it even more than main event now that Donald Trump is back and but while we're waiting outside his remarks about Daddy we're going around at the group of journalist.

I was with and it was it is pretty and she isn't it and it comes on top of those falling out of love letter that Mark Rutter wrote.

Text it to Donald Trump yesterday on social media and because I actually asked Mark Ritter in the in his press conference out whether using flattery like calling Donald Trump daddy and Angela praise is that the way you have to do business now with the US president isn't it a bit demeaning he said they actually given that it was he basically said a few things basically said that given Donald Trump's pressure is the main reason why NATO allies a signing up to this new defence spending pledge which they have done at this summit but he deserves praise so he was absolutely honest about it and clearly thinks it.

It's warranted and its effective because I'm not interesting and we will the meteor shower obviously we used to even ask if we've got used to.

President from criticising the media but listening to that interaction with Mark Rutter even by the president standards, it was quite startling well.

Let's have a listen to another bit of it.

This is him berating the assembly media about the reporting of the US bombs on Iran scum this group and well Deborah I'm in the media including the BBC and Sky has obviously been reporting on that leaked intelligence reports suggest in the US bombing of Iranian nuclear sites wasn't nearly as successful president has claimed presumably this out first relates to that.

Yes, I'm actually in I've just come out from the press conference with Donald Trump so his final big press conference where he again repeated those there's angry the media and he seems to be he seems to be but he is basically twisting them credible reporting by the government news agencies and organisations about based on information that they have received and reporting responsibly with them actually the meaning the pilots that carried out the mission and one of the journalist that was being attacked by Donald Trump in the conference will say it was trying to make the point yeah, we're not attacking the military.

It's just normal reporting as a free Media in a that's what we do we report facts and it is quite and comfortable to be honest being in the press conference just now you could have the number of Media were laughing along with the criticisms are calling.

I don't know he was huge, but there was some people that were laughing about it and obviously it is kind of a strange spectacle to see but it's not funny when it states.

Yeah, we seen attacks on journalists and it's dangerous to use that language and specifically called the media scam relation to a run.

I mean the thing about particular moment in the media so much they're very recently 24-hours a long time and Donald Trump well then our world, but you know he had this swear out first on the White House Lawn just also different from the formality of what we got used to in terms of a traditional press conference now.

He's made the speech at night and all of that has that you know how do you deal with this very different approach 2000 journalist in attendance.

Are you getting a lot of access to him? I mean to be honest with you and this may be found that sounds a bit counterintuitive but it's actually.

Much better for the way that he is dealing with this is much better than how it was under Joe Biden Joe Biden Media was so tightly controlled you would never get a question.

It was all pre-decided and you know I've been too many conferences and q4os waiting for the president to come and strain with your I'm trying to get a question and it is it's completely out of my head against the wall at least Donald Trump he does questions.

He just got the confidence to the steel questions and yeah, you know you might not like the answers, but at least he he does actually engaged and ask him a question now again on that daddy comment because it was so weird and I asked him whether he sees NATO his NATO allies as children given the defence or defence.

Call him, Daddy I'm kind of the more serious making was there obviously all bending over backwards to try to appeal to Donald Trump and show him that they're serious about increasing their defenses and I asked him and do you think that there will come a time and you will be able to defend itself and without the US and he was saying he was laughing long about the the daddy thing with making a serious point but he doesn't think at the moment.

They can kind of implying that the US was here for now, but obviously that's a question mark as well in terms of Us in future absolutely before you go I would like to ask you about your new podcast which is very relevant and I'll current times and doing really well in terms of rankings is called the war game.

Let's just have a little taster.

The world feels pretty dangerous.

Campaign of Russian Sabotage in Europe so what would happen if Britain's defences were put to the test is absolutely brilliant brilliant idea testing out what might happen as you heard that how are you finding a pivot to podcasting and white Adidas series before called into the grey Zone and I absolutely love it.

I used to be a newspaper journalist and I really enjoyed podcasting because it allows you to write in much more deck about a subject and really but bring it to life and with this and have your defence doing this for over 20-years now and I have a good and this but like 2025 years and it it's increasing the alarms at the insecurity in the world the fact you have Nations that are so resilient because they've had to enjoy War

Can you look at the erosion of our defences at home since the end of the Cold war and the loss of collective memory about what it means to be a nation that's able to determine that such as we used to do during the Cold war and your hearing all of these warnings mean that that was Mark Russells one of the boys.

Was you just heard of approaching sprouts and I thought but people don't feed it understands the problems of hospital wait understand frustrations about not enough teachers teaching their children maths, but they don't understand because they don't they haven't had soup they have that luxury of peace and why it is important for an army to have a month's worth of bullets when it comes to fighting a high intensity war and so I thought that to bring it to life.

I would pay towards game where we we simulate a Russian attack on the UK don't give too much away, but we also bring in former real ministers and real military and security teeth to play the part of the British government's I've got Ben Wallace that the prime minister like that.

I'm coming back at home secretary Jack Straw is our Foreign Secretary Mark said well as our national Security advisor general who just helped write the governor defence review he's our defence chief.

We've also got a Kremlin with her.

You know what is a Russia expert playing the president.

Lol yeah, it is later.

I'm very very worth listening to thank you so much and anyone who's interested in van all episodes of The Wall game.

Wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you now Hong Kong it was once asia's most vibrant Media City home to a noisy independent press but today many of its museums are shattered and press freedoms curtailed Under sweeping national Security laws now.

Ok symbolises that collapse more starkly than that of Jimmy Lai the founder of Apple daily newspaper that was shut down by the Hong Kong authorities 4 years ago this week.

Media tycoon has been kept in solitary confinement for more than 4 years now designated by amnesty International as a prisoner of conscience his son Sebastian is with me in the studio hello Sebastian Avenue thank you so much for coming in and we are of course going to talk about your father in a moment, but describe first for audiences, but won't know it the newspaper his newspaper apple daily was it and what were the issues? It's janus-faced before it was shut down because it was a relentless last few years has the biggest newspaper but more importantly there was a problem boxing newspaper my father.

Set it up in the week of term square.

He realised that as Britain we're going to hang Hong Kong back to China that you need the voice on the new stands that one afraid of the the train from his party was willing to criticise that Tycoons Triad and then ben inventor pressure and and and and campaign.

And that was what my father's colleagues did for a firm more than 20-years inaugural Edition and there's a beautiful phrase at the end in century said no we not afraid of 1997 the handover we are but we refuse to be intimidated by fear and for the next Toy ideas.

They they live by that by the end it in the sense that they there was intimidation actually took it when they pass National Treasure law in 2020.

They arrest my father my father had the opportunity to leave many people told them to leave but he knew that with diesel Forester resumes.

If you leave your leaving your principles behind the more importantly if the publisher they start target in the darkness, so my father made a very common calculated decision to stay and defenders people and they said 200 people to read the newspapers.

To take care, you know laptops and all the information and even after that the journalist sent and the people at the factory CAD printing the newspaper show me after they sent 500 people a few months after that and then frozen bank accounts that that that appledaily had to close and what reason was given for closing the page and what is your father accused of so under this new national Security law the government can essentially they can actually raid the biggest newspaper in Hong Kong on allegations of breaching sync my father started at the end of 2023.

It was meant to last 90 days are still gone and he is is this essentially an hour this 3-0 charges, where does allegations of witnesses being tortured all because he does.

Or because he and his colleagues criticise the government and advocating for democracy and this is this is in your account as I was saying he's been in prison for more than 4 years.

He's 77.

He's in so you can find do you know what the impact has been on him and obviously it's absolutely horrible.

I mean salty environment within 14-days is considered alongside.

She can find that he's been there for more than 1600 days what everyone around it is I remember when I spoke to you in and around me about her husband election about me.

They kept taking him out and putting them back in because the rule in Russia was you can't be intolerant for longer than 2 weeks now and then put it back in your car that has been husband husband since the start but you know you've seen the willingness to essentially destroy, Hong Kong

How old is this very strong this place? I want had a very strong legal system unit for example another another sentence that my Father God and it was for lighting candle and saying a prayer at a cinnamon square Massacre vigil to commemorate the people who died in Tiananmen Square I think anybody listen to this good.

No that's that is completely ridiculous normally is a ridiculous incredibly thankful that this place could still say that they are the rules or after doing something.

I've done that people listen to this might not now.

Is that your father has British Citizenship and no you wrote to the to kiss on the two years ago requesting a meeting what happened since then and I think he's due to visit China is just been announced in the autumn.

Will you be wanting him to raise this issue? Yeah, I'd be so much.

My father is only British if you don't have any other citizenship.if actually escaped as a child refugee from coming.

It's round at 12.

It was the first time.

When was the first time it's state recognise them as a person so he's incredibly proud to be British he also true beauty all the success of freedom that were given to Hong Kong vibrating.

That's why I can pay for the decoration of the British government doing enough to try and get out, so I don't look I think we are we seem to be in a place where we want to get closer to talk about normalising station of relationship and if we aren't normalising station chips with China and an energy Hong Kong well, when I will never go and normalise than arresting I said to them in size requirements for 5-years it because they decide to speak out the value that we we we are in Morden entitled that underpins this country.

We are talking about normalisation getting close to China and surely.

My father's really should be a precondition that and this is not a a crazy thing to ask you would take the Hong Kong government but too.

22 release on a plane send him send him back here.

This is a 77 year old man who spent 5 years almost 5 years inside confinement who have you got diabetes been chatting you absolutely horrible conditions and its active humanity and it is no there's an international outcry, but my father's in prison and he is this often described as China's best known political prisoner you were talking about the national Security law.

It's only been used not just to shut down appledaily but Chelsea journalist criminalise reporting is there any space left or international for independence or a journalism in Hong Kong today, so I think obviously Hong Kong stillhouse people who want her to the truth.

I think that their wings as you know yourself and know that it's but it's not exactly pressure on your parents.

I want to report as a journalist in within that space.

I mean after seeing what they did happily who would actually who would publish Woodward Dad at to speak out.

I'm in here is a man who have given everything he has freedoms and then to the dentist, but it expect other people to do that if we don't speak a week after if we don't your campaign 20-22 release them so I think unfortunately local press in Hong Kong it is helping modelled by newspaper done by a reporters without borders the Spirit of April daily lives on as a tribute to apple daily for years on just last lead have hope that he will be released yeah.

I I I hope that you're really released because it did you know.

Where is it in Hong Kong and Andy China's best interest Hong Kong tiles 2 World editor for medical centre has a good war 11 on how can they claim that when they said to me lying in prison very good? Thank you very much for coming on a telling us about your father and and the size of the media in Hong Kong you are listening to the media show on BBC Radio 4 with me Katie razzall.

We're going to look at the so-called paradise tattle life in the moment, but before that old friend of the media.

Show me now MoDA is here now is the consumer research needed a analysis because there is an intriguing little story in the television which we thought manaus should tell us all about which is that Netflix in France has announced his moving into the world of live TV which is just completely contrary to the strategy that propels to its mega billions from next year Netflix is going to off of you as in France live channels from TFL that one of the French TV channels me now the first time they've done this.

Yes, it is the first time that they've done this type of partnership.

It's not the first time they tried live tv.

In France so so actually back in 2020.

They launched something called Netflix Direct which was a non-interactive curated playlist which kind of similar to a TV schedule and it just kind of Play TV shows so even back then they understood that there was a place for the TV in a market like France but this is very much the first time they've actually done a deal with a broadcaster to bring live content onto the platform.

So what is it? Is there something specific about France from be read into a it's a wider game plan across the world so I think it's going to be the case, but there are some specifics about France itself, so we host a lot of data around a lot the streaming platforms in consumer behaviours and from that we know that Netflix has about 48% penetration in France now when you compare that to the UK and the US it's 60.

Does underpenetrated in these markets and part of the reason for that is because Francis quite a heavy linear market so by that I mean people still really enjoy watching TV in terms of thing by the BBC iTV and their equivalent in Europe Western Europe has had a lot of that turns a market France Germany Italy a lot of Our Data shows that linear still holds strong relevance that I'm past that is because of preference for local content so homemade TV shows home-made films and the French love local context and I guess linear platforms have really been the Bastion of those a lot of what the streaming platforms are very good.

Offering is globalised context very good at the US content a lot of the Korean content that we're now seeing a lot of those overseas content are very good at that.

Where is even if in the UK you think of things like Mr Bates vs.

The post office like those types of shows public.

Broadcasters are linear commercial broadcasters.

They're very good at those and that's why linear TV is held such a strong position in the market like France really interesting I mean more windy on that they seem to be pivoting until I will generally so for example.

I've got the broadcast rights to a big boxing match in the autumn between Canelo Alvarez and Terence Crawford just done that for a little bit because it's almost like we will sort of reassessing every bit of a media all the time but you think the Netflix is a strimmer and suddenly this room is getting into live yes that really is that when a lot of the streamers will launch Netflix was obviously one of the first ones but they read the covid Boom when everybody was at home everybody need something to watch and so they were getting paid subscriptions and what we've seen has happened.

Is that a slow down over the last few years, so they're looking at other avenues of revenue growth and for them advertising is that now in order to?

Advertising money you need lots of people watching your platform at the same time and live does that for you? You can't really guarantee that with a subscription show like I might Sirens on Netflix at a different time to when you might watch it.

Where is if there's a boxing match you can guarantee an audience and so therefore brands will buy that advertising slot so whether it's Sport or they'll get access to like high quality dramas or they'll get access to the voice reality show you can guarantee those audiences in a way that you just can't otherwise is the thing that always near TV channels works at the commercial was a long time ago.

You need those big football events in order to get the advertisers interested because it's about audiences remember analysis.

Thank you very much for coming on the media again now you like writing horrible things online about people you don't know you'll be familiar with tattle life.

It's a website where you can post your opinions about celebrities and influencers, but it seems at your peril.

Big is last week tattle life lost a libel case and has been ordered toupee hundreds of thousands of pounds in damages to a couple from Northern Ireland and since then a host of celebrities and influencers come out to accuse tattle life of allowing stalking harassment and dog saying that publishing personal or private information with malicious intent the couple who played out we used to being trolled in the lowest common denominator is you just about sums appearance.

I've had people telling you how they're not attracted to me for 16 years and it sorted out back.

That's not tattle stalking death threats.

I really need to have that message home in 2023.

I think they announce my pregnancy someone on their announce my pregnancy broke my heart went well.

That wasn't the cab, Lisburn

That was actually skincare Caroline Hirons and the influence and other Emily Clarkson talking on ITV Lorraine and the founder of tattle life has operated anonymously and has now been revealed to be a 41 year old vegan influencer call Sebastian Bond to explain the legal context behind the case that that's on last time.

We're joined by Persephone bridgman, Baker partner at Carter hello Persephone great to have you on the programme just to explain this a bit.

I mean many people try to take legal action against platforms like tattle life for libel this case brought by Neil and on a Santa succeeded.

Just took us through it and why so so claimant succeed and these sorts of social media cases and persons unknown faces regularly, but I think what's interesting about.

This.

Is it has a blend of all sorts of these elements the real difference here is that the sand couple pursued this would absolute dogged determination so the original.

But it was just a person's unknown the owner and operator of tattle life and what they've been doing past two years is seeking to unmark the owner and they've done that for a number of different meanings through quite sophisticated investigations pertaining to orders that he himself and other 3rd party disclosure order and in doing so he had to reveal his identity and that's what prompted the current and total calls itself a commentary website on business social media accounts and previously told the BBC that influences.

We monetize their personal lives should be open to scrutiny, but I wonder when does commentary of free speech into trolling or harassment to privacy of their safety and not be passed on the other.

This is different this website is different from a discussion that might take place at a party or over the water cooler voice their opinions opinions what is hiding behind that and using that protection if they see it to defame harass people and publish their private information and yes some of these people are people who put some of their lives in the public eye that still doesn't give me the right as they have been on tattle life unmasked and is proceeding how would someone go about finding the operator of the website if they were operating and honestly you can also retain certain orders that are unmasking orders will require an individual to unmask themselves to the court and you can use it against third parties as well.

Norwich pharmacal orders than you use a third party to disclose information about internet service provider or mobile phone operator.

See you the number or email address of somebody that you don't have their name and you can ask the third party to help identify them and they conducted a thorough investigation using a very reputable firms as I was saying it's been called the trolls paradise, but why would someone Sue tattle life rather than the trolls who are posting so you got the option to do both you might choose to see the because once you put them on notice that you have a complaint and if they refuse to deal with that and you can see them under the same as you can see but you can also see the anonymous trolls and that would be the same time libel claim harassment claim misuse of private information train is going to see what happens next after this because now that we have bonfire identity orders could be a pain.

Him to unmask anonymous troll so it might be so I might be seeing people for all use social media absolutely has has ramifications for all users.

I think first of all the Landscape is changing societal shifts in the responsible use of social media by online safety coming into force in July this year additional requirements on websites including social media sites to protect individuals from harmful content and generally to protect your safety.

That's real spotlight now after this case on this issue of anonymous trolling because I think that previously people have felt empowered on these anonymous website from spaces and mistakenly think that there's no possibility of them and if there's anything I really hope that is just Sean the spotlights on the sorts of issues, so that people realise that actually there are serious ramifications for them online.

Cancel the end result could be that how everybody views that ability to be online and Anonymous online and say what you want that actually that that's good.

Yeah, I think so.

I think we seen calls for example better authentication of people's identity before they can use these sorts of websites and social media everything that with the use of social media by children as well, but I think there is more of a call for transparency her absolutely and many of the victims on the website calling for social media users to provide verified identification when opening new account that reduce online trolling people are required to do the website by signing up to our services that they can play that certain your step which could be taken if not people's identities at least the social media information.

So if you need to get a court order against them then you can and you know but they

Because I suppose just before you do want to protect some people to be able to be Anonymous online whistleblowers political dissidents those kind of people with the law managed to sort that exercise all the time at the moment.

I don't see any ok well on its website tattle life claims to have a zero-tolerance policies at any content that is abusive hateful and a team of moderators online 24/7 to remove any content that breaks are strict rules often in minutes normally go from tattle life.

Previously told the BBC recent events have highlighted the need to make some changes going forward.

She said tattle life would improve its reporting system by people giving people a ticket number and reiterated that there is a contact form on every page when anyone can report and bacon.

Thank you so much for coming on the program and of course.

Thank you to all our guests who came on today really special Media show talking about some really important and Powerful journalism, I will be

Was next week hot from his Glastonbury drum and bass gig slightly less important but fun I will be talking to Formula 1 champion Damon help, but from all of us could buy hello it's Lucy Worsley here at the back with a brand new series of Lady swindlers following in the footsteps of some all new criminals.

Thank you my all female detectives trying to make it in a world made for this is a story of working-class women trying to get viruses survival lady swindlers season 2 with Lucy Worsley from BBC Radio 4 listen now BBC sounds.