Read this: Reporting on the Israel Iran conflict, influencers on the radio, Reddit at 20, Grenfell Uncovered documentary

Music Radio podcasts, I'm Katie razzall.

Hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week will hear the debate in the radio industry about the number of influencers and celebrities who are getting presenting eggs.

Currently presenting on Radio 1 with his wife Sophie habboo, we're also going to look at read it the social Media platform is 20 years old and it's number of UK users is growing we're going to find out why and by the director of a new Netflix documentary about the grenfell fire in 2017 the first of all we going to look at the media coverage of the conflict between Iran and both how it's being covered in the region and the challenges for the UK media in covering, what's happening in a moment? We're gonna speak to Shane Oppenheimer from BBC monitoring who's with us from Tel Aviv that begin with Josh and Chelsea defence editor at The Economist thank you very much indeed for joining us on the media show I wonder if you've both contributed to the media coverage and consumed the average more broadly how you have observed the British Media responding to this story and framing how to tell this story was the first and most obvious thing is where the story is be.

From that includes my own outlet The Economist as well as many other uk-based publications.

There are very very few if any publications that have permanent staff based and that's partly a function of the way the Iranian regime is conducted itself.

It has arrested many many dual nationals over the years accusing them of espionage and it has not been a hospice place to do journalism and therefore the result is that most organisations covering the story are based either in Israel or in other parts of the Middle East but not in Iran and create a certain.

I think detachment from what's happening but the other thing that strikes me that's very interesting is we dealing with the sort of simultan simultaneous transparency and opacity transparency is the fact that I am able to acquire satellite photographs of nuclear sites in Iran of a thought that would have blown the socks off a CIH

The 1950s within hours but actually at the same time.

I am grappling with very very sensitive claims about intelligence that are much more vet scrutinise at probe and I think this is a problem.

We are finding in many conflicts around the world and how do you go about that challenge that you described in the last part of your answer that you're getting information about what's happening in Iran from open from your sources, but then the work of standing that information up is particularly difficult to the answer is using social media and other channels to try to get first-hand accounts of what's happening on the ground and that serves you can serve us very well in some circumstances in lots of people with mobile phones capturing footage.

Obviously it does not serve us very well when it comes to the question of whether a particular building struck into her on was a Cent

Production facility for uranium we can't answer that just by studying the wreckage from the outside and so the answer as always with a good journalism issue, you both know very well is triangulation you talk to as many people as you can from a range of different backgrounds and nationalities and you try to piece together different parts of the puzzle always accepting that don't know everything and I think conveying some of those caveat do your readers or your viewers listeners, would you also try and develop sources within around or would doing that risk to a degree that you wouldn't be comfortable with no weed absolutely develop sources within around some of my colleagues have excellent sources within Iran and any Ronnies you know it is a massive stayed, but that doesn't mean people can't talk to you using encrypted apps are using means of safe and secure communications that would not have been available to people.

16 or 20 years ago in the same way and that allows us to get those Direct views of people I think having said that though.

We we are aware that when you talk to some people in Iran they will be operating under conditions of surveillance of self-censorship and and also they may have to Taylor what they saying what they tell you for fear of repercussions and you have to fact.

I will stay here of course on the Israeli side Israel has wartime censorship, and it has a military sensor that operates even in peacetime so for instance Israel his ask people not to report on missiles astruc buildings in case it helps a runny and targeting and the research subject that are running in German Israeli journalist cannot report on unless they attributed to the foreign press, so that sense of wartime restrained is absolutely operative in Israel to some degree as well as one aspect of this story which you will be able to cover is the Israeli Prime Minister

Let me know who's Direct communication with Iranians often happening via Media outlets where he is saying this is an opportunity for you to change who controls and your country.

What's your observation of how his use the media to deliver that message well, this is interesting because the Israel defense forces have a justice.

They have an Arabic language.

They have a Persian language spokesman, who delivers messages in Farsi and some of those are operational messages like the one we saw recently to clear large areas of Tehran some of those are very political messages and similarly from the prime minister.

He has used often television channels that are popular in the Iranian diaspora like it ran international actually did the other day to a message effectively of his ambition of regime change in Iran I think this is particularly effective when you have a very connected pop.

But it ran of course is also trying to disrupt and limit the internet domestically because it is aware that the bad also is a way of keeping it safe to sometimes Shawshank thank you very much for joining us on the media show that's just St joshi.

Who's the defence editor of The Economist and now we're also joined by Shana Oppenheimer from BBC monitoring who is in Tel Aviv welcome Shana thanks for having me you're very welcome.

Just tell me first.

How did you and other outlets in the region hear about this operation first and also where you are in tell him how the domestic Media been covering the story the impact of the strikes and Israel personally I was sleeping on last Thursday night.

I was walking around 3 in the morning by missile Sirens at this point in the war you kind of assuming.

They're all been launched from your man, so there's a tenancy not.

Too seriously I personally didn't bother to make it to a a bomb shelter.

I just kind of stud in my hallway on and as the siren ended was a bit shorter than usual.

I got an alert to my phone which I had never got in before kind of this warning sign saying to take kind of being in a protected area it was quite confusing and then very quickly through local media and kind of my own journalist channels that we understood that is really military had struck in Iran and this is kind of one all about started on.

There was a bit of a shock and surprise even though there is a lot of reporting leading up to this at indicated this happened and how quickly did you start reporting is and you and others and of course.

I'm very interested in having a Mystic Media is covering it pretty soon.

I kind of turn on the town on Saturday looking at.

Australian my colleagues about it and kind of cover mostly Israeli media and how it's kind of messaging on and protrain events to the public very very quickly you see this kind of wartime mode take into gear with this really need your pudding up slogans and together.

We will win is Israel attacking Iran and very much what they see as significant military achievements in Iran well not mentioning whatsoever the civilian impact of those strikes and do you see different Media come across depending on the political spectrum, or is it all very OneNote quite striking about? This is a general trend is really media and the public is on the eve of this attack.

There was a lot of criticism of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu the way he was handling the Warren goes on the view that.

Dragon on kind of his own political survival you see that criticism really heavily in the mainstream Media the left wing Media not so much the right wing Media the sagging is kind of girls and decisive action attack on Iran and nursing job.

I will say has a tendency to pursue kind of favourable public policy across the board this kind of excitement and cheerleading in kind of view that this was a good thing in for Netanyahu you know we can talk a lot about his calculations, but this was a fantastic destruction from all of the criticism on that he has kind of been receiving since October 7th before October 7th just on the eve of this he himself has been able to escape a pretty significant raptor his own bowling coalition presenter wasn't there comparing him to Churchill and other big figures.

Yeah, we've seen that.

What in right wing Media in 1-hour broadcaster said that by striking Iran Netanyahu kind of proved himself to do much more for the world and Winston Churchill I am ok ever did on the that kind of sentiment is not necessarily shocking from something like channel 14 which is kind of like and to this really Fox News what's more striking is when you see it in mainstream.

Media when the day before there's so much criticism of the way he handles his kind of military policy open home.

Thank you very much for coming on the program and thanks to Cheshunt Joshua who was speaking to Ross earlier this week, it is 8 years since the fire at grenfell tower which killed 72 people including 18 children the subsequent grenfell enquiry found all of their deaths were avoidable and on Friday Netflix is releasing a new documentary called Grenville uncovered.

Rogan Productions and one of the key focuses of the documentary is who knew what and when about the cladding.

This is described sticking a petrol tanker to the outside of building a huge corporate scandals boots.

We are not cleaning companies were able to find a way around the regulations regulation concerns with the council.

We will able to crouchers we didn't deserve shut up.

There are thousands of buildings that still have the combustible cladding many questions as you like use your time wisely speaking with Eric Pickles who was Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government at the time of the fire the director of this new documentary is Elijah Sadiq and she joined last now welcome and you're very welcome.

It's great that you're here.

It's obviously not the first documentary.

That's been made about the grenfell Tower fire in it's it's 8 long years and they're important.

It's important to keep this in the public eye and I was involved with from the very beginning but what we use setting out with XIV what was the intention to make this different and remove this forward if you can yeah, thank you ask you it was too I guess you can say not to make what's on wood.

Documentary a lot of the community felt like that had been done.

They start like people know they have they went for this.

They are still going through the snow brought so what to do was having the Freedom of the enquiry coming to a close be able to bring together a lot of the revelations a lot of the fact that they don't know about imbalance out this sort of next savings and great a can of balls forensic examination of what happened and how it happens whilst balancing trauma survivors and the wider community and I definitely want to talk to you in a second about what you found because it is very interesting but just that conflict that you must face as a filmmaker where you know that you do need to ask people you feel you need to ask people to retell the story that they first told all those years ago on the news and at and have been telling again and again since it's very traumatising for them to do so I wonder how you worked out.

How to do that and how the survivors reacted to Havant retail their stories stories some people who have spoken in the supplementary at length be for the first time to disagree obviously they've done maybe small news pieces and stuff like that and there are people who are taking the first time in a tree.

So it was about buying into what we were saying they wanted to do and believe you about building trust and saying that we want to make this differently wants this purposeful.

We want to make this bold understand what happened and how it happened and I think you know the trust was there just was built and it and I'll be able to come and tell their stories and actually I think they welcomed to do so because a lot of people want to keep speaking they haven't had resolved.

They haven't had a conclusion, so what's that?

Yeah, absolutely NG report enquiry report identified a series of failures by both government and the private sector rendering the tower a deathtrap and the cladding appointed as the principal factor for the rapid spread of The Fly and drilling down into what who knew what about the cabin and when is as we were saying a key aspect of your documentary what new evidence did you uncover and how did you get it? So we obviously enquiry in in fine detail so that a lot of things that we've got tonight and we also endeavour to look into paperwork and and different actions that took place in America to understand about one of the companies involved who played the cabin may have known about the dangers of the products.

You know years for the fire and that's what we wanted to find out and I think that's what we did find out and that's all.

What's the surface in the way that we feel is new and hasn't the number for can you take legal action I think in order to get some internal emails released between staff at this company and Academy manufacturing iconic.

What did they reveal how why how did you do that? And what did they reveal about the meeting up? You know a case to do it and that what that had to go for its own process and that took some time so that was it wasn't we wouldn't have to get going to go to all of them, but we put our case and we had to wait for an answer that senior executives were aware of the dangers of that particular product before before and during the sale of grandfather leaving just after the cell and one point today.

You know Stefan and pull pull it from the sale or advise that it wasn't suitable even though there was documents to show PE version of that product wasn't too high rise buildings.

Set shaped cladding elements that work that were on that on the went up so quickly at the side of the building once started.

Is is what you found significantly different to the criticism of iconic by the enquiry chairman Sir Martin moore-bick and cos he said the company had deliberately and dishonest concealed test data going back to 2005 that showed its cladding burnt in an extremely dangerous way and Miss Leathermarket was safety statements it need to be false you said I say we are aligned with what he says and I think we've tried to go to go further in that not everyone probably listen to some Arsenal or betting my apology enquiry Wallasey make not just about in the story wanted to make my information digestible a lot of blood into she may not know about Grandpa at all or know who's in.

And what response have you had for mark on it was in the film and their responses and their response was that they didn't receive and they they stand by safe to use on and we did a call for a statement from the company wouldn't get a response but at the Granville enquiry final report last year.

They said that they surgery arconic architectural products SAS supplied sheets of aluminium composite material that we used to manufacture the rain screen for the grenfell Tower refurbishment.

They had this product was safe to use as a material and legal to sell in the UK as well as the more than 30 other countries in which aap customers purchased the product we reject any claim that aap sold and unsafe product Rosehill listening to talking with with Katie as I'm listening to you.

I'm wondering what kind of response you've had from the community around Grenville Tower and weather.

Nervous about showing the community the film there was a positive.

I think obviously there's so much to the grandpa story and there's only so much you include a week every story and when I lock the first documentary on probably unlikely to be the last but I would say the responses and really positive it's been very emotional so very much space give the next 8 years on we recently decided what comes out on Saturday was very sorry, but I think we are coming down as a very different feel and the community so I'm seeing it and I appreciate it was last on the platform and that feedback was very wrong very emotional but it's very emotionally charged as well.

I think a lot of people who feel like this can help someone in that what time does injustice and you use the word galvanise.

Is it your hope that more broadly the many people who watch this documentary on.

It will be galvanised.

Are you hoping for an impact such as in a very different way we saw from programs like adolescence or Mr Bates vs.

The post office is a sliver of the same that be a basic goes gross programmes did such an amazing job of ignited conversations and get bored talking and pushing to change and I think that's what they go for community and the briefing survivor one they want they want change.

They want to cancel bility they want Justice and I think the way we package this time.

I hope that that would be something that can kick start conversations.

I think it's having real conversations with decision-makers in this country.

I think that would be a massive for us a massive for the all those directly affected by the fire because it is a story that doesn't just the victims and I think it concerns all of us we all live in this country it happened in this country and it but it won't happen again.

If changes are made so I think it would be amazing if the documentary just have.

On the calendar on buildings on the way we got in this country the way people in social housing of treated as a number of things that are covered up to conversations to be starting so you're looking to start conversations to have impact with the work that your you've done.

I'm sure you're aware that some of the survivors who have featured in your documentary of taking matters into their own hands.

They've gone to Pittsburgh the headquarters of iconic and they've been giving out leaflets and talking to people in Pittsburgh about what happened with the fire at they've been posting some of these images on social media.

I wonder what you make of that as a way of a pushing the agenda of creating content that might provoke conversations or actions to the Bentall haven't had Justice so they're going to do.

What do I need to do to keep that conversation alive and take and information to do they think might not know obviously a lot people and Pittsburgh and in America

So, I think they go travelling all the way there to spread the word and and bring awareness to the stories are very powerful thing to do and I commend them for doing that and there is a cost to do that, but thank you very much for making time for us on the media show today we appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

I love you guys director of this new documentary called grenfell uncovered.

It's released on Netflix on Friday in case I want to ask you about these clips that have been posted on YouTube I want to ask you about it too, but it is quite an unusual form of media content to come out of people who are also involved in a more traditional show you say documentary becoming more common.

I first heard about this.

It's a film that they've made and it was sent by survivor one of the people involved in it and you know it hasn't been watched by that many people yet, but we will see it yet as you said is a group of grenfell Tower survivors and resident they go to Pittsburgh to try to talk to people there about.

That is where the parent company of the cabin manufacturers located and I just find it very interesting having followed this story been involved with survivors and the residents more widely for 8 years now.

It's interesting to observe the different ways that they tried to keep Grantham power in the public consciousness while we're talking about the fact that you know it's painful for them personally to do so but they really want need to do it and I feel make it was on my new they see him as an advocate for gramfel and then this is a much more direct way of taking control of the lady was was alluding to your taking control of and these platforms is part from offers that and that you know they were talking about it.

It was both hands on they had the idea.

This is what they wanted to do well that program can be found on YouTube and as we're saying the documentary grenfell on covered is on Netflix from Friday now.

I wonder how many of you use the social Media platform Reddit the answer.

Well, be higher than it was last year because as read it becomes 20 years old it is growing in the UK if you haven't used it.

Let me quickly explain it features more than 100000 inch based communities in these Communities on everything from politics to cute animals and lots of other things beside read it has over 100 million daily active users globally and according to the media to Ofcom last year Reddit was the 5th most popular social Media platform in the UK when in case you're wondering that listing full is YouTube Facebook Instagram tiktok and X well only one of them is with us today, but we are excited that she is it shred its global head of community law and welcome to the media show Laura well.

It's great to have you for those who don't know about it and there must be some and I hate to say it.

How would you describe read it you know how it works just describe it to somebody who doesn't know.

Sure, I think you didn't wonderful job is a community of Communities is a place where people anyone you can come together around the things that you care about them.

So you can go and learn about something but also you can go in and get really deep on a niche particular interest in find people that are just as passionate about those things as you are described for people.

What do you actually do? What is a when you go on a subreddit worth red? What is it the Community Housing they're all created and run by community members them set up so you could search for a new skincare regime or how to rebuild an engine and you'll find a community for that on ready.

You can immediately the conversation by posting or commenting or voting and just getting involved and what are the most popular ones in the UK then if you drilled into the the data users are incredibly engaged.

Of course have to mention Premier League right for the football fans each individual side has their own community as well that casual UK is a large community for dry humour and discussions by running no politics are allowed there.

So specific Communities have specific rules one of my personal favourites is gardening UK It's A Neat community that spin-off from the US or only because British uses wanted UK climate specific gardening advice to say I was thinking about to go and find out about the slugs on my Dahlia because nobody else is going to be a subreddit for that and I need to get involved, but there is a very often to another radio on news people first and foremost.

I suppose and and there's a new report by the reuters Institute released yesterday.

It's just that social media is now the main source of news in the US do you use as go to

The news I wonder what's happening in the news is happening on read it really is a reflection of whatever is happening in the world, but the new one series that people go to Reddit for discussion of the news, so you'll see a break and then hundreds of people on reddit unpacking it in the comments.

They want a recount the play-by-play.

They want to assess the impact of whatever Avengers broke.

So it's not just what happened.

It's really about the conversation and you've mentioned several times the the moderators and the community are at the heart of this and the each different section may have different rules so help us understand how the moderation works.

How did the rules get enforced sure you know are unique moderation models really what keeps it real spaces for people to be up feel vulnerable in the authentic there three layers of moderation first Reddit the platform governance infrastructure so things like policies safety standards.

We enforce a set of Rules that applies to everybody but the second layer every community has at least one moderator and community members not ready employees and what they do is create an additional set of Rules that sit on top of our platform policies that are tailored to the Communities unique needs and goals so for example ukpersonalfinance an additional set of Rules that includes no specific investment recommendation my favourite example is a community called Cats standing up you may be surprised to find out if we do not have any side my balls dictating weather cats can be sitting or standing that may be a surprise, but you better believe that in that community your post will be removed by the moderators if it's not a cat and a cat is not standing up.

So this is really important because user's participation is what makes.

Really authentic it how content is displayed within the Communities and what it does is a build the community's culture because it creates a single shared view of all of the content with a community post the power on reddit is distributed by Design it is this tension in checks and balances with Communities at the centre of gravity the Communities of the centre of gravity and you have this model which really can only thrive with those Communities being very active I'm listening thinking well.

I can understand people might want to join this Communities but I'm also thinking this sounds like a lot of work for someone to maintain these Communities do just read it pay any of them.

We do not know moderators.

I think it's important to remember is it moderators are here for their communities right not for Reddit they don't have a specific.

Set of tasks that red is giving them.

Will it read it is really 2inpower or moderators ensure that they have the tools and the programs to be successful at whatever the goal is for their individual community and that's what we've been in that side.

I must ask you about AI of course any conversation about any tech product has to has the feature that you place a huge emphasis as a company and you've also done at this during the interview the importance of community and of the individual moderators who may credit so special but surely.

There is a risk that is ready in braces AI in a range of ways you won't be such a human need the actually the technology will become more dominant in shaping the experience.

Yes, but I believe it.

It's as much of a challenge is it is an app so looking ahead of course really focus on preserving the humanness of reddit at any internet in general people are exhausted by an authentic information online everything is polished.

Sponsored everything is I generated and that's just not read it is real.

So what were doing to make sure that read? It says human is exploring ways to confirm that users are real people without meeting the personal information so we need another human, but we don't need another name of the user's but in terms of how the moderation and the site works if you are free and I think this is Freddie is allowing AI models to train on reddit content once the AI as learnt how the Reddit content work surely.

It will be in a position to to moderate to shape the content that is posted not posted on reddit and that's it will do quite a few people who love the platform out of a roll.

Well.

I would disagree.

I think we're news well.

I can really help readers flag things like breaking can't imagine if you have any community and you have a set of Rules that I could understand those rolls and when people come into your community and make it.

When you are posting something that's against the role for example a dog in the cat standing up community it could get a I could help sold that for a man before they have to see it, so really I think that it's important that human verification is top priority right because it's real is people having other people in a I need to support the moderators.

There's a world where should replace the moderators because at that point read it was is everything that makes it special and that's it.

Thank you very much indeed for speaking to us.

That's Lauren Nestlé global head of community from reading a lot on the media show and it's many different roles.

I'm not sure we've talked about it identifying whether a cat is standing up or not, but there we go we haven't I am going to go and have a look at that and just see what's going in Laura's word for a man.

Does and agree that all people care a great deal about presenter line-up Sam the biggest networks but we wanted to talk about this as it wasn't so much the presenters in question that caused the debate it was their professional backgrounds Made in Chelsea stars Sophie habboo.

Joyner husband Radio 1 presenter.

Jamie Laing who also was someone who to some degree made his name on Made in Chelsea there going to be doing a 3 weeks till afternoon show that sending today and also social media storm podcast ejike Barry is taking over the weekend afternoon show throughout July has been a bit of consternation social media.

I'll give you a bit of a favour from Instagram someone said it doesn't sit right with me when there's people trying too hard so hard to get a break and then someone else said there are so many hard working in capable presenters covering Radio 1 at the moment.

How are undermining? They weren't given the chance to show the listeners what they're capable long does this competition look at the Times who says it's past questions about the research of influence of culture and the point of

See already privilege pair presenting a peak hours show on public service radio while scores of bedroom DJs graft away.

I should say that at the time when this is reported by the BBC BBC News online noted son criticism of the decision has been Express but there was some of the criticism when Jamie took over from Jordan North in 2024, but ready one says he's become a favourite with the listeners.

What does all this say about the changing role of music radio and a talent pipeline into audio broadcasting by Caroline Frost journalist and columnist for the radio Times and also Sara Carson chief culture writer for the eye and Caroline welcome if we start with you.

What do you make this move at the presenters? You got their start their first start in reality TV or social media you can see by the BBC would want to do it is the same reason that they recruit these social influences for shows like Strictly Come Dancing because it reaches a young audience very quick.

I mean Jamie Laing has 1.6 million followers on Instagram his wife Sophie has a mere 966000 so immediately all they have to do is to write about some me up on their show and that is the a very cheap big billboard advertisement without having to pay for it, but I do think it's a shame.

I mean I am old school.

I grow up on me as well as the inevitable smashie and nicey contingent that we all grow up with an enjoyed there were people who genuinely cared not just about radio but also about music and the great pioneers of the past in not include.

Tony Blackburn Noel Edmonds Mike Reid and Gary Davies who people may laugh at their style these days.

They certainly of their era, but nobody can doubt how passionate they were about their craft.

I don't think that they were just doing something to sneak in between reality TV dining shows and trips to Dubai to advertise their ways which is what influences have to do that is their job but it does.

That we're getting them sort of in passing and of course it means that the pipeline is being squashed as well.

We don't have the local radio we don't have the community radio we don't have the hospital radio people coming up the hard yards during the night shifts proving their where's I'm not going to be a cliche and mention John Peel but let's talk Annie Nightingale let's talk Jo Whiley people who we know live and breathe music and bring the best sometimes the worst to ask but really know they're cross these people are shiny young fresh happily married buttons.

I wish them all the best, but I don't think that they bring me or anybody anything that is new or diverting so you're not entirely convinced by the sounds of it Sarah and from the eye.

What about you and I listen to the radio 4.

I mean I probably first listen to Radio 1 about 20 years ago when it was wake up with Mi get home with Mills and that get home with ml would be going home that Sophie

St.

Michael the first Instinct is always to say you know no, I hate this invasion of every kind of corner of Culture by influences, but I really feel that if we dismiss reality TV as a talent pipeline we cut off quite a lot of really great personalities big charismatic you then going to be good presenters across media and you know I'm not going to argue that Sophie habboo and Jamie Laing when you've found that elsewhere you know the they are incredibly but it is an opportunity for other people to get a starting to radio this isn't a start for them though.

They have successful podcast a proving they can build up a relationship with listener and Caroline on that point does it matter if every single radio presenter on a music station isn't an expert in music.

They can bring a range of other things to the listeners and other.

Going to have specialist DJ to particularly knowledgeable of one type of music or another and tastes and pastimes however, I mean, I did enjoy and Sarah's peace in the eye defending Sophie this week and she makes a great point about their like ability.

There's no doubt about it.

They are very presentable amiable young hair but that surely a given that the lowest of all bars all presenter should be amiable and appealing I mean Roz and Katie are in your boot in appealing, but I tune in for your ex 80s and your passion as well as those things I get those things that he described as my friends from my friends.

I don't to be relatable.

Is is a given that should be just the absolute the beginning of the new build those bricks with something.

I mean I mean I just don't why should I listen to Jamie Laing being excited that he's learning to drive the deck for the first time.

I want to be in the heartless where my licence is going to be.

The somebody who knows more entertaining I do want to be educated and informed Sarah to do this.

Is it going to pay off that is another matter because I I personally don't I think it's a great.

It's a good punt but I think I think they won't cosmetic personalities then listeners will see through it you know people might have all the followers in the world, but if they're not good and a particular medium people going to switch off and then I'm going to go around especially now when you know the competition is harder than ever and you know a lot of people really don't listen to Radio 4 The Music they can choose the music that they want to hear elsewhere.

They can stream perfectly curated playlist that appeal to the exact taste listening for is to be distracted to beat Aston company and you know I think they that word relatability is usually overused but I think they have.

They're willing to be really really open about the marriage about the relationship about the things that annoy themselves know each other which you know you can argue.

That is done is done radio, but it is working if they weren't both you know especially cases, Sophie habboo a really sharp.

Wit it would have really people have got bored of it right now.

I don't think it will bring massive followers over to the radio though, you are not already listening.

I think it might just keep people listening when they do switch over because I think fighting for young people are radios at is another battle so I thank you very much that's Sarah Carson thanks Caroline talking about this issue again a couple of times on the media showing wants to come probably right just before we go.

There's been a new appointment at the top of the BBC the new chief content officer to Charlotte Moore is the person who was already filling in Kate Phillips previously director of Unscripted at the BBC and so we have a minute Katie just tell us why this role and UK media is.

An important one because once you no longer have channel controllers if you like then, this is the person who is responsible for the direction of travel of so much of the BBC's decision-making that you might say so for audiences.

This is about you know where to put the money weather here.

We talk a lot on the minister before about the issues around funding in terms of high-end drama and what the BBC can afford how the fun don't think this person Kate Phillips will now be making those decisions.

What dramas.

We might see what will much more broadly will see here and interact with across the BBC and she's some been at the BBC for 12-years responsible for Big Show's including Strictly Come Dancing in the traitors.

So there is not a particularly visible job that she's got in terms of audience is it certainly very important job? Thank you very much indeed and that is the end of today's Media showcase you on your own next week.

I'm afraid because I'm going to head of U2 Glastonbury so thank you very much for holding a Ford I will try to do it without you and then I'll sort it.

The volume to do my new job by the Swan about DJ something like that very much for both of us a goodbye video from BBC sounds is facing a fight for his freedom that is hugely anticipated trial starts for sex trafficking racketeering with conspiracy and transportation for prostitute he denies all the charges.

I'll be bringing you every twist and turn from the court room with the BBC's correspondence and our expert get so make sure you listen subscribe now BBC sounds and turn locations on so you never miss a thing.