Read this: Sir Martin Sorrell on AI Advertising, Dan Snow History Hit, the ethics of working with a convicted criminal to tell a

Music Radio podcasts and Katie razzall hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 this week.

We'll talk to dance know about why it's boom time for history content also by the new podcast about people smuggling will take us through the Ethical considerations of giving a convicted criminal a central role in The Story she was telling we look at China's Dem

An international media operations as Radio free Asia deals with severe cuts and founder of the advertising giant wpp Willis s w a i is doing to the ad industry that fast as bells dance no welcome to the media showdown we wanted to speak to you as your company history Hepburn's this month and it has some very impressive statistics.

I'd like to quote some more than 1250 documentaries a YouTube channel with more than 1.6 million subscribers and a successful podcast you were obviously already an established TV presenter.

Why did you decide to create history hit because the writing's on the wall, but my phone's got no actually I think so true that the push-pull first was aware that the interlocking revolutions going on in the media one was around reaching audiences.

You know it's like me just click on the phone and and reach people all over the world.

The great advantage of speak English with huge advantage of Cavendish soft British UK soft power cultural power people are interesting British content, so that was going on it became easy, but these platforms you can get people upload credit cards into platforms.

Have a little Netflix have your own that we do it in history you can also miniaturised production, so my first project the BBC 2003 winter Egypt excess baggage £18000 an excess baggage.

We took cameras and cranes and sound kit now.

We can travel online bikes with with backpacks and Other Bike companies are available and you can also and we can do and the quality of content they are cheating is not taking any camera to taking things that you can take drones that pack down, so you'll be a helicopter in your backpack to various revolutions again on and it's this is madness my whole career and life depends on some commission at the

Liking the cut of my JIB and after 15 years making it such documentaries.

I sent that I needed to jump I need to take this Campbell jump into this new world because I was still young enough.

I thought and sort of resilient enough to do it and be I'm probably not going to get asked to make this money has forgot to mention 60 is not so I don't do they had stopped quite because of your gym.

They had done what you think you'll never delivered this all planets like Brian Cox documentaries that would do fine and I think they thought someone and my view is fine and we will get hit by lightning win the lottery to become TV presenter lucky.

I might be live by the sword die by so I took what I think truly benefit.

I got from working lazy and tried to pull a into this digital in that I can still control.

So you did that and it appeared to work? When did you decide to go beyond podcast with three people watching one of your mum? You know it's the joy of the podcast all these are the things it's nice to go viral on social media platforms any money and the great thing about the podcast is you can monetize it and advertising because people tend to listen from start to finish quite strong relationships like your audience have great relationship to do you like or something about audio with them on runs and walks and intimate domestic whitespaces listen to go to bed so for some reason Advertiser

Think I'm done.

I'm telling the world.

That's some serious on the greatest in the world.

We can hear his podcasts quite early on started to attract all about add money and so I would read out all these and and so suddenly you're getting paid for things you doing on the internet which of the Year print pictures on and try and go viral messing about it was very excited that actual link between virality between numbers and listens and eyeballs and money was very exciting to the minute.

You start a statue.

Can you can grow people employed people clever than you are and then I partnered up with that they help me build this really from the podcast and Netflix history scription channel.

We can make TV shows that people around the world pay for and that means I've achieve the sun Nirvana of creative people which is we now we sit down with our team and we decide what you want.

And have a look at and we can do that because we've got this this this predictable subscription model at and cash flow that means you can fly out to Peru you can make podcast out.

They couldn't Grande tiktoks YouTube's out there for YouTube monetisation and then and then and then and it also is one piece of content scraping history folks.

I like your politics and sport is it so that Inca show is going to be interested in this year's isn't allowed to jump in or not ok? You don't have to travel.

Do you don't I mean now? You know why I went on the march of the living in Auschwitz and you can't even though you can't film there now the created using the unreal Engine which of the under and technological underpinning for ROBLOX they've used created digital twin effectively so you can create the Spielberg for example.

Confirm that you can have do it you don't have together the incur incur simple you can actually do it from the studio of course you are not just for the success of history hit on directly connected to you and your colleagues and the content you make but you are part of a broader surgeon in history content where were sitting podcast like the rest is history.

You're dead to me YouTube is full of history videos substack one of the most popular newsletters written by a an American historian Heather Cox Richardson why do you think that history is lending it so well myself, so well to the current Media error and I look back at some of these conversations with commissioning editors in the in the noughties the BBC thought history was slightly Tweedy thing that you're you're annoying.

Went on about everything that happened.

It is by definition the most exciting important thing that ever happened to anyone has ever lived on this planet, so it's very unsurprising close Lostock like history and it was surprising to us to find it's in normally popular.

They probably a lot of reasons one is the best stories in just enjoy it to we've got we got amazing stuff.

We went down to Antarctica a few years ago and ensure you found Shackleton ship Endurance and the ice those images went on the front page of the New York Times all over the world, so there is this stuff.

That's in Tutankhamun's tomb there is stuff.

That is this beautiful and fascinating but there is something else going on around people now realise we are living in historic times this please come along with Tony Blair in the naughty girl.

I think he's driving me mad anymore in a new paradigm the internet invented the actually we got armies Marching On Frontiers we've got we've got we've got War in Europe we have got the question of Palestine Israel Gaza in Palestine we're we need history of interest to me.

That's what's happening.

Sorry so much never let me just quickly this as well.

It was one of my mind hear what you're describing is spotting a moment moving in that moment creating successful Media business, but I made two or three passing comments about the BBC and more Legacy operations and how they responded to this moment.

Do you think that public service broadcasters of Miss the boat on history and some of the biggest message to contact the world's being produced by by the BBC and another big broadcasters and said that I don't think there's a question venetia's of the stomach bigger than we all thought they were the BBC couldn't expand at their own history and what's its fascinating.

Is there so much space there for the rest of the moving Radio 5 Live does one that turns out the market for a platter of mainly blokes talking about footballers democratising Simon Schama but I can remember I can remember watching black and white television.

GP Taylor half hour history programs we bring back yeah, this is Back to the Future do you Dan ever see yourself? Are you seeking to Sharon opinion? It's on your because you look at current affairs obviously through the lens of history whether that's in a white reason.

Why isn't Canada the 51st stay or who owns Greenland you know the political zeitgeisty things right now.

Are you expressing a police audiences of fast really want to text something of the things that are going on the wall around the world gets so many people more disturbing crazy.

They want to go home.

So what is the status of what is going on? What is Greenland Trump is good for business, but of course you want to express business.

I mean I would say that every time.

I've done that it just in rages portions of the audience else to say be honest as it's got bigger and more.

The pressure has been on not to express opinions because you alienate trunks of the audience so so therefore it.

We've gone from this going to find uncertainty rice lines of brexit all the time to actually thinking now in American and lots of them probably probably insightly.

What are the things? You're avoiding one of the most challenging ones that people don't like the moment you well, I think the keys to get the town right like you guys have to work on every day here in this building.

It is actually very interesting to do to do why isn't kind of the 51st state but without degree just trump bashing you can kind of the history and context do that for you.

I think they do you feel like you've lost income I was watching a very high profile YouTube the other day talk about how he felt he had lost income and his business because of opinions expressed.

Do you feel that they have been x on its course you alright? Yes, yes, I have because it because it is so interesting you the way that find ability on Spotify and at the other day platforms work.

Weird spike in negative reviews that will inevitably impact that you're there the computer actually passing a bit weird.

Let's let's not push that too many people as we should she's kind of understandable very small groups of well motivated antagonists can can you tell people they can they can affect the way your podcast scene and and and hurting found the moment you stay with us, but we already heard from tonight and sorry a little bit.

We are now going to talk about advertising more broadly.

Yeah, that is the soundtrack to Mad Men Don Draper and Peggy Olson working in the golden age of advertising in 1950s America or 17 on The Addams history of course transformed and now Mark Zuckerberg is muscling in by the end of the year massive will he says make AI tools available for companies to create their own ads what does?

For the industry here in the UK which generated more than 40 billion in revenue last year well, if you been listening since beginning of the program.

You'll know that here in the Studio with us is Sir Martin Sorrell found out of dpp.

One of the world's largest and most successful advertising businesses.

He's now chair of the board of directors of the communications business, S4 capital you have served the advertising industry for many decades.

I wonder how you would compare this moment of disruption with others that you've experienced.

It's similar but more probably I mean you go to the Golden Age maybe there's another Golden Age coming but will be different so if I if I think about it, historically out the first golden ages around globalisation we can say that's finished.

I agree or disagree can say to checked stuttering more fragmentation coming the other big Force has been technology and we've had the internet revolution in the 90s.

Who had the

Revolution in this in this Millennium and now we're going through a an AI revolution by the way, it's around quantum computing and it's around blockchain.

I don't cryptobull that crypto.is is getting increasingly relevant for good or good or bad Warren Buffett was so bad and Charlie Munger would say the same thing is still alive, but I think it's the rules a different era, and I think it's a new golden area S4 it's brand name its branding operating brand monks really is focused totally on the digital age.

I'm just put in our industry is a trillion-dollar industry globally about 700 billion of that trillian is in digital and 300 billion is in traditional free-to-air TV newspapers in the in the old form the traditional Industries going backwards by about note to 15% depending on where you have live sports or not the digital pieces growing by Tenerife

Dominated by Google which out of that religion is 250000000000 of ad revenues 150000000000 Amazon 60 and tiktok outside China is 40 minutes for platforms of 500 minutes half of the market and 70% of digital that's the big shift.

That's taking place.

So that she could lead to what you say maybe a golden era another word for advertising but are you concerned that is products being proposed by M and others that would allow people to generate adverts much more easily than they could have done before that.

It will simply remove the this model of we have consistently says we started this for 6 years ago and it and mediamonks and my card which of the two chord company is inside inside us date back for the week consistently said since inception that we believe the market was moving to a platform Dominator market the four companies that I mention pass Alibaba and tencent so you have three on.

EN3 the east and they would dominate the industry and the Investment needed for a i which is about a half a trillion-dollar the Year the the big mag 7 or the Maga 7AS are investing in AI capacity we consistently said those platforms will continue to dominate and the role of the agency is as validated for the algorithm and M dishonour you wouldn't go to Rupert Murdoch and say he's my media budget invested.

You're not going to get to Mark Zuckerberg and say the same I said matter is 15% of the industry what you will do as you will look at the album.

You look up what the Elgar and spits out in terms of solution and then you ask an agency or a third-party independent inverted commas to validate that but I'll be people listening to this thing ok, what we looking at this from the industry's board if you're right, what will this mean for the type of adverts that come my my way are they going to be personalised what form? Will it take? Where will I find give me?

Just running to the five things that we see going on the first is round visualisation and copywriting SO30 second-hand used to take it out what Dan said about programming in the old used to take 2 months used across millions of Dollars we produce ads for Puma just recently working on several of the clients at the moment which are which are being launched where we produce the same amount of material the same material using a I literally in days for $100,000 so visualisation cooperating time compress time-to-market second is person that scale you mentioned Netflix what I call the Netflix model on steroids using first Party data balance consented date of the consumers have given our clients plus the signals from that is what we doing on media to create highly personalised ads at scale for Netflix example we work for Amazon Prime or Disney plus will produce a million and billion and a half assets.

Campaign we can do multiples of that there is media planning and buying planning that trillian using algorithms.

Just like they do in the Equity industry and anniversary using Computing the Investment of it general efficiency and lastly most importantly I think democratisation of knowledge the BBC is a very silo dog if you can use AI to inform everybody knows BBC silos have put it that way about what's going on as a whole that democratise have gummy flattens the analysation makes it much more efficient you have a vision for our advertising can adaptor in your view also succeed you would cost a well aware that this week one of the main stories around the Industries that Mark Reid is going to be stepping down as the head of wpp this claiming that this is the firm that you founded which she finds from after the board investigating claims of misconduct which you denied.

Markree with the person who replaced you I wonder whether you see his departure as a symptom of the fact that this industry is struggling in this month.

I don't think so, I think he does probably I mean it's just the pose with the loss of a major piece of business Mars $2000000 1.7 million dollar business the time of the interesting over the weekend when the Mars lost was announced last night's I think you have to put those two things that follows a string of losses you mentioned that WP was where is actually the largest that isn't it now slip to position number for so I think the mirrors more what's happened to the position of wpp visa V the competition publishers having done extremely well omnicom also not as well.

I presume I'm going through a merger you don't see the the challenges that wpp his face as being representative of

Order challenges organisation definition you've got what you've got another company in the industry this doing extremely well, why strong leadership better position on data position on digital ok? So the reverse is true in the case of others struggling a bit internationally in Japan it's very strong harasses on a smaller scale.

I presume I'm going through a merger so you're saying it is possible to succeed it.

Just happened at the moment, but it's a question about leadership and strategy and structure.

Thanks Martin I joined here by Alex Salmond who had the advertising Association AI task force the advertising Association is the trade body for the industry and you Alex are also managing partner of faith bcck a creative industry great to have you just first you'll take on what's Martin's been saying but also more broadly about what Mark Zuckerberg.

About the future of the industry.

Yes, we'll sort that I think it's going to go out there and like to cause a bit of a ruckus and the industry but when we think about it.

I mean it's a great idea for small businesses.

You know be able to create your adverts and actually you know get out there a lot quicker and grow your business, so it's going to democratise in it for the small businesses that we work with all day and I just think putting more kind of a sloth into the world and more average advertising when actually they kind of Beauty advertising is you know you're going to raise that far creativity and that's all that's the reason why we started faith in the first place.

We wanted to actually see how I could be an accelerator of creativity and imagination and not just make it an average of everything and do you think it can be because I'm in LA a few years ago being in an advertising event about aib the lotto created in the room saying you're going to this is going to take our jobs with worried and all the

Panel say no no we still need creative absolutely need grades.

I mean these are just tools at the end of the day.

They are you know very very powerful tools and amazing and I going to change a lot of things industry, but you know you've got to put something into the tool to get something good out and that's still needs to be led by a creative eye and a creative Vision and why should consumers care about what we've been talking about needs to be a bit of a realisation that you know you are you on social media quite a lot you are going to consumers.

Whether you like it or not and actually you're probably going to school past most of them.

I think the average and does he have about 2 to 1/2 seconds to grab someone's attention to get them to buy your product or know your behaviour change campaign or whatever you're trying to do and I think consuming an amazing visual now and amazing video content that you haven't seen before on social media is so high.

I scroll past so much stuff.

You know you're competing with.

How many different things you're competing with your friends content you're in the publishers contact everyone so I think the bar is so high and what about when we think about advertising when I think about advertising in my role at the BBC I think about those incredible directors who started an advertising and then it was this pipeline is Crucible cheese scones or do you think a I will actually close that pipeline that we're not going to get all film directors absolutely no, I mean I think it's probably more people who couldn't get into the industry before able to get in.

It's going to lower that bar.

You know I don't know how old is film director started out, but there is this thing and you know in the industry and the film make sure that you have to know people to get far now anyone who's got access to the tools then you know everyone's got a smartphone pretty much everyone can be a tiktok creator of this exists what doesn't

Is that a high level of creativity and you need to push that and there'll be the people just personalising a scale and a lot of people are doing it and people being bombarded with that the created created become more important lesson and when we talk about personalised as Alex you this idea about British ads also the cultural force you up to the 80s and 90s everyone watching the same TV the same adverts people will remember if they're older you know that's over sadolin.

Milky Bar Kid or Tango man.

Milk Tray man all about this is obviously be lost on me.

Just won't get that universal recognition of the ad in the way that we used to do we not already not already lost it.

I think we have slightly lost it but what that does mean for advertising agencies.

You have to work a lot harder to get people's attention and in the spaces that they're in we talk about a lot about big ideas for small screens because it's no longer just

Ok to create an average at you want the things that cut through that get into talkability that people actually want to share so I think yeah, I got one.

What is it? What is the problem using technology more effectively I mean what they agencies have to do is to think we have the same argument data data destroys creativity and intuition exactly creates better insight data through data technology can produce better work.

It's not a question about displacing maybe we will lose him but there is a counter argument which is the data will give you an analysis based on everything.

We've always done.

We've done already will audiences and consumers of advertising you've done already.

It won't necessarily be able to predict the thing that you didn't get a charge against them letters because it's based on all the knowledge that we knew already in the analysis as well as not the day.

Uncovering inside that gives you an idea.

That is mould breaking down on this as well.

I meant can you draw any comparisons between the technological changes we're living through now.

What's happening history of not accusing.

It has been a lovely day today.

We make it I'm taking my secret we make every single.

Please contact me about amberlynn.

So we we for some reason the world is ready made out of are so then just throwing a few hello Mary can just get what the next time don't know what they don't know I don't want so we have to have that I can't tell you that she's so far.

Obviously, you are species is one of Extraordinary this is what we go for the moment is obviously radical, but it's not an unprecedented for 200 shopkins and walking around then about 5000 years ago.

We mix broccoli mix 10 and copper 1000 degrees centigrade discover bronze but 40 and 5000 years after with flying Drone on Mars you know it's this is just the latest spasm of an extraordinary technological people that have seen I'm afraid to say populations wiped out of religious transformations it seems North and South America settled 90% of north and south American indigenous people dying with 100 years because of this technology was in so I mean that people like is the printing press of course you see protestantism sweep across Europe with an operation spiking women being executed for witchcraft in the result again and again and again, nobody understands.

The nature of the technology released and we don't understand as you dance.

No, I'm sorry Alex we've got to finish it that I'm really sorry Dan Snow's thanks.

All three of you now next on the media.

Show we're going to talk about a new podcast.

It's called the smuggler.

It's from the BBC and we want to talk about it in part because it raises very interesting edit or an ethical questions because one of the main voices in This podcast and we hear this person throughout is a convicted people smuggler Radio 4 shadow world narrative podcasts, which have included thief at the British Museum presented by me.

There's a plug and the willpower detectives presented by Sue Mitchell Annabel deas is the BBC investigative journalist who is creator series and she joins us now in the studio.

Hello.

Lol it's great that you're here.

Just give us an hour.

I'm going to hear from about it.

I'm going to hear a clip from at the moment, but just give us set it up give us an outline of the

Well, it's the story of how a seemingly ordinary white British man from the home counties becomes a people smuggler which in itself is quite fascinating and explores the real mechanics and methods we used to be snuggled people not just on Ferries but also in sailboats using private marinas and yacht club spring and people from Dunkirk to the coast and we all things up know how people smuggling works, but the methods and the things that he revealed with fascinating as a former soldier he uses reconnaissance skills to in bed himself in these areas he knew he was doing equinox sailing with channel is Dad and as you hear.

He's a bit of a charmer.

He's got away with people and that certainly helped him commit a lot of crimes well.

Let's have a little lesson in the car.

Hidden industry that thrives in the Shadows walk down the stairs you find a lorry that stands out to any of the others and you tell them to get on the lorry give him a knife and just one side like a v.

You slide it there's nothing about that because you've already been cleared for entry to the UK and Annabelle people listening to that people we had more of the podcast.

I'm sure one of the first questions.

They have was what is the decision-making process around giving someone who's a convicted criminal a platform such as there's a huge public interest and as you know you know migration immigration people smuggling dominates the news cycle to have someone give us this real insight into exactly how it's done.

I'm not only by a British person.

We don't most people that imagine that people Smugglers are British for him to give us an insight into how he did it how he penetrated our borders repeatedly and gave us in.

That you holding back clip the former Border Force Chief said you know this is new to all.

This is something that we can act on this was something that we knew you would be of interest to audience and that was how many Justified it that was the justification he starts telling you all of these things but presumably you don't just down automatically put it in the podcast.

Do you have to then go about trying to bottom out? Whether all of this true yes absolutely so he is the main character in inverted commas in the podcast and the other is Trevor the police detective who tracked him down and eventually arrested him cos Nick pleaded guilty I was able to access all his court documents.

I was able to verify everything he did with the police so went through with a fine-tooth comb so we know that everything he tells you think it'll be a different ethical and editorial decision if his the crime here committed was even more serious.

Yeah, I think if migrants had.

Dies in his using his family methods that would have been a completely different kind of program.

What he did was he was giving us you no such a fascinating insight.

We know what he was arrested for we know he was convicted for we know what crime he was sentence for eventually murder and manslaughter part of that and so that was sort of part of the weighing up of editorial justifications in giving him so much are time Annabelle I first became aware of your brilliant storytelling with your podcast about County lines, which was just brilliant.

You've now got this.

I'm not interested in how you how did you find this man? How did you learn about his door really fell into my lap.

I was on maternity leave in my second son and a friend of mine from school.

Haven't spoken many years had gone to prison which is quite unusual from middle-class background in home counties as well as my friend.

I don't.

How many people have been to prison the front of my friend went to prison so fascinating me frankly I met up with him when I was on mat leave and I said what was it like and he told me all about making new friends and then he says I'm quite good friends with people actually so I started asking questions.

He told me this guy was roughly the same age as us came from a similar kind of background and it's spiral from there.

I called him up over process of many months.

We started talking about anonymity.

What kind of program we could make an that and that was that quite a difficult decision to give him and him to allow him to change his name.

Why did you take that decision? I mean to be frank he has spoken to us if we had used his real name and the public interest was just so huge and what he was telling us.

That was well as justification for doing that and what was he like? Did it sounds in the program? It sounds like a very friendly difficult to keep a professional distance.

Yeah.

I mean we did we did get on and he was easy to work with you would turn up on time he was good company.

He was intelligent he had an interesting background.

Yeah, I mean he doesn't know where I live we don't invite him round to my house.

We would always sort of meat in public.

I came into the BBC one time.

I need to do the studio.

So it's friendly of course because you want to open up to you have to have that relationship with them but always keeping arm's-length and a professional distance and are you still in touch touch sadly he is in prison for a completely unrelated crime and there is one serious, but not as serious as what he was previously charged with but so we email back and forth and we speak on the phone sometimes you get paid for doing that.

There was a person if you didn't put cars you're here and talk about his Albanian from Matt who was the one who essentially recruited in.

I would would have liked to the in the podcast as well, but he asked me for a minimum of 5000.

So that was just a no, so you didn't get paid you've taken all these decisions from your side of things where you believe the public interest justifies the decisions you taken.

Why do you think he had to speak to you? What was in it for him? I think part of it was arrogance two-factor him beat your 40s and he obviously got eventually but for quite a while he the authorities and he he claims you know a method of smuggling which was the other Smugglers, who might be listening.

I don't know there are new radio for Audrey wanted to show off and when you do have any concerns that you were providing the ability for him to show up on a scale that he would never have been able to do because presumably though.

He's anonymous some people who know I'm going to be able to work out that it's him and it was just showing off.

We would have thought that he was regretful and expresses that regret in the podcast number of times and he said that he wanted to process and understand what he did like.

It's ruined his life you went to prison for many years his marriage.

Lost his children.

I think he wanted understand why he became the person who was and what's next animal these quickly break so much you can find the smuggler and all the other podcast mentioned earlier by heading to BBC sounds know if your regular listening to the media show you know that in March we were discussing the trump administrations cuts to the US agency for Global Media this is the body that oversees and funds numerous public service outlets including voice of America Radio free Europe and Radio free Asia and Windows budget cuts introduced by the trump administration came as severe reduction to their services radio free Asia broadcast in countries including China Myanmar Vietnam and North Korea and in a number of languages including uyghur and Tibetan and we wanted to turn back to this story because as Radio free Asia has reduced its output are the country.

Reportedly seen an opportunity in particular China rejoined by Michael Bristow asia-pacific editor of for the BBC World Service hello my welcome to the media show now the Washington Post has recently reported that China's state radio has added many new frequencies since late March and has been jamming frequencies previously used by ready free Asia has China Spider-Man unity do you think to expand firstly if you look at the Chinese state media with a reporting after a President Trump's decision to withdraw funds for Radio free Asia a Chinese media with cock-a-hoop about what was going on really saying this is the end of fake news on China and so it wouldn't surprise me at is China before it is a haven't spiden opportunity moved into take those frequencies as radio shortwave radio frequencies have been used by.

Create your previous have done it before a few years ago the Australian broadcaster ABC they withdrew some of their broadcasting Chinese state Media use those frequencies, so I have done that before and how easy is it to find out of it done at this time? I don't think it's very easy, Washington Post article if you read that it was using information is collected anonymously it being that information, but it sounds certainly like something at the Chinese authorities.

Would do you certainly not going to get the Chinese authorities telling you about that because that would indicate to the rest of the world that there is in a century stopping at the western world reporting information about China to Chinese people and absolutely not an idea setting of A narrative which they want to promote people and I think we do know that Radio free Asia is no longer broadcasting too many b listeners advise saying including to we get and Tibetan listeners.

Can you offer any examples of how?

Chinese state Media already broadcast to or indeed about those audiences evidence of Chinese Communist Party took over China's 70 odd years ago.

They've been age did a massive amount of propaganda and controlling information that it's people get century trying to ward off any bad information.

That's only become more severe since she's been painted over in power in China of decade of decade ago.

They got the great firewall for the Waldorf the internet the room people so people just can't access you can log on for example say to the BBC Chinese service in China look at what's happening there.

You just don't have access to this information.

So this is part of a long-running decades-long battle to really limit information to their own people at the same time interesting me Chinese doing another thing it's

To get it message out about what's going on China to the rest of the world it won't sit believe that media organisations such as a BBC essentially changes the message of China and and represents training a really negative light it wants to change that spend a lot of money over recent years funding English French Spanish version all kinds of language services to get a Chinese message out and bypassing traditional Western media organisation so the messages two ways but be clear of euro uyghur in China would you have been able to you could have picked up Radio free Asia before could you while living inside China what? What can you get now? Just a propaganda? I think the Ouija broadcast Radio free Asia is still going many of the many of their broadcast have been suspended because of the defended by.

President Trump I think the uyghur protest some of them are still still still going on at the moment and they would they would get that information is difficult to numbers Radio free Asia says it has 60 million did have 60 million across the region.

It's difficult with radio as opposed to the internet to actually check.

How many people listening anecdotally within China itself that are people say you know we listen to the broadcast and just finally Mike was it too simplistic based on what you're saying the say that if Western funded Media operations like radio free Asia Retreat not just within China but more broadly in the region that leaves opportunity for China to explore those ambitions to exert influence viamedia outside of China exactly definitely they'll be absolutely thrilled that President Trump has taken this action because

Particularly in East Asia countries around the stage of they seek to present themselves as an alternative to the Americans wear your neighbour.

We will help you don't look for the American Americans withdrawing gives them an opportunity to refund Media opposite operations and just get their message out for more easy without any contradiction from the alternative Voice will be absolutely swale.at.

What's happening in America thank you very much and even taking us through that's microscope from the BBC world service from this week.

Thank you to all our next week will be looking at The Platform Reddit as it turns 20 but from both of us good.

Bye.

Bye.

This is Dr Chris and Dr Zaman here, and we are dropping in to let you know about on BBC Radio 4 podcast in Whatsapp dogs we are going to be diving into the messy complicated world of health and well-being because it can be confusing can't it's aren't that right.

Some information out there can be contradictory it can be overwhelming to that's right.

We get seduced by the marketing the hype the trends so we want to be your guide through it and I think it's fair to say son.

We are going to be getting personal absolutely going to be getting personal Chris what I want to do is bringing my own health dilemmas in the hope that we can help you with yours and subscribe to WhatsApp docs on BBC sounds.