Read this: Daytime TV crisis? Police media strategy shift after car ploughs into crowd at Liverpool FC parade, Simon Reeve

music Radio podcasts and Katie razzall and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome on today's programme will speak to travel presenter and Explorer Simon we about his advice across the globe and also race across the world Alfie what's who's now a YouTube travel influencer, Kirstie Allsopp gives us her reaction to the story we touched on last week i t

Apps to it's daytime schedule and we talk to the editor of The New York Times joke on about trump training a new generation of journalists and perhaps most controversially wordle best first the media strategy of Merseyside police has become a major element of the tragic story that unfolded in Liverpool on Monday just over 2 hours after a car ploughs into crowd celebrating football fans the police unusually identify the suspect as a white British male, Rebecca camera is security and crime editor at the Daily Mail and she's also chair of the crime report is association and she joins Us Now welcome Rebecca the police reaction appears to be a direct Response to advice by His Majesty's inspectorate of Constabulary to combat the type of misinformation on social media which happened after three young girls were killed in Southport last summer I know you campaign for Greater openness, but will you surprised by the speed of it?

I was surprised but I was so pleased I got say it is something that needs change for all forces and hmic report that very very clear.

We also had the home Affairs Select Committee saying the same thing police forces have a loud disinformation to Spiral by not addressing it by not really feeling back with Will fat.

I think there's a no recognition of the policing your settings so of this story right and it's probably the first time.

I think we've seen this is practically gonna incredibly quickly and put those fact out that they wouldn't ordinary the race and that is a very unusual stepping investigation, but completely necessary we already saw on social media people trying to write things about this individual being a Muslim be absolutely lies and it's really important that we don't see her pizza Southport and I think for that now recognise the danger here and I understand you actually advised Merseyside police last year.

On the time of the murder of the girls in Southport is that what you were telling them then so I advise them slightly different support.

It was when the right before then had an issue where back in July when they made a Christmas heavily criticised for not addressing some the circulation in the media and social media and then monthly tomorrow where this man has been manufacturing potentially Lethal Weapon the bedroom and I didn't have to communicate and advice on that was quite simple.

It was have a pre-trial brief where you are able to give the media the facts and allow them to ask questions because it was inevitable that people would say why is this not a terrorist incident? Why has he not being can you clarify information basically opportunities answer this question really think the difference in getting that stretch across.

I know they were very grateful.

Unusual for us to come to Crown Court station is becoming more common that we just have a quiet conversation and how can we address this as part of rebuilding our relationship between the police and the media and what happened in Liverpool on Monday with obviously terrible and terrible for those who were injured but in terms of a media strategy.

This is clearly about trying to stave off misinformation on social media, but could it lead to Bigger problems down the line? I'm having done this what happens if next time I suspect there's a recently arrived migrants or someone with a clearly is the name for example actually think I'm confusing so the public will know eventually the investigation rather than being distracted by looking on social media Jonathan Hall the Independent legislation, but it really well today.

You said there has to be consistent you gotta roll with it.

Asian black black man or woman have to say that you have to be fully consistent whatever the police do these narratives still do one online at least gang of Frankfurt address quickly as Merseyside happened.

You got a very good chance of staying off the huge amount suppose that these things degeneration so you're saying they should do it every time.

I please have said they were isn't a president for the future, so do you think yeah? It should be interesting information and it should be case-by-case sample wanted to say Axel Rudi kabanas a religion in a Circumstance that took place in someone's religion that could be an issue is something that I have two way up.

For prosecution in terms of my you is the police should be far more for coming as soon as possible as much fats as possible and if they can't they should hold of any kind of things you can do with my prayers of the background to the position of the police are really dealing with this relationship.

So that some of this thing doesn't actually get out and control of the end up with rides.

Thank you very much for coming and immediate that was Rebecca Campbell chair of the Crime reporters Association now joke on is executive editor of one of America's most influential newspapers the New York Times known for its high quality journalism the paper 1 awards in the latest Pulitzer prizes, but of course too many outside the us.

It might be even more renowned as the home of wordle.on came into r studio recently for an interview with me and rose.

Began with a question about a day in the life of a New York Times editor the day does Beacon very early by not necessarily by everybody bye everyone bye newspapers Taylor's the newspaper used to the pressure point in a newspaper was kind of the end of the day you would take in the news all day long and by the end of the day you would redraft of the stories and the editor the primary responsibility of the other many generations of my predecessor was to basically make the decisions about the city stories that would make the front page the next day and that was end of the day.

We did because that's when the finish Russians were there.

It's really the reverse now the Day begin this you know you're early for me and I spent the first few hours of the day.

I had of our morning our main Morning News meeting Reading

Play in the staff is done overnight.

What are preparing to do with the competition is doing a head of that morning news meaning which lasts about an hour when we try to set the main priorities for top stories which is the main story that you see in the first few swipes on your mobile feed and where the bedding each of those should be the most important as a lot of competition to get into that space each day, so we're hearing pictures from different parts of the newsroom same we've got something really good but also seeking where we think we're a little bit too slow or we can go a little bit deeper or there's a question that we're asking that we haven't answered yet to commission some journalism that will get done in the course of the day is a news company in a new product but actually the New York Times has no not just for its news, but actually you very effectively and this was particularly the case in the 20 times under expand.

The whole range of other types of content which are other reasons why people come to the New York Times games on the number of products largely grew out of the journalism operation games grew out of puzzles, which was made my kind of a crossword puzzle which was a newspaper product from the World War II became a kind of portfolio with brain teaser type games spelling the connections of the games that have them actually had your games editor of the program and we raise the very important issue for UK used players which is American vs.

British spelling.

I've been here only for half an hour or two or three times about American spelling spelling bee with need to be addressed.

Newspaper of course you can ask about Donald Trump and his relationship with the media, but he does talk about different Media outlets in the States but specifically about the New York Times Donald Trump said such a dishonest such garbage when you hear that you're president has said that about your newspaper.

How do you respond? What do you think he said that so many times? I don't think we have a specific response to that navigation 1800 Donald Trump as you know has a hate love relationship with the New York Times and other leading Media you know he is very accessible president.

He wants to be in the news.

He takes very seriously the way is covered in the news in most of his public statements and his social media tweets on true social or elsewhere.

You'll see that as him attacking us but you can wander through marahlago and see copies of the printing your time newspapers spread out on the coffee tables there.

He is very a turned to the way the Times covers him.

He doesn't call me about met him.

He doesn't actually phone me.

He does have regular contact there with several of the Beat reporter to work on the White House speed and so did the people around them and they would just get calls the blue phone goes and it's the president angry calls and you know we become a source for deeper reporting behind-the-scenes reporting and how things are unfolding in is administration.

We have good access inside trump world and inside the administration we continue to report debris on that even when publicly there's a sort of vitriol that's been handed behind the scenes.

I think people realise that your account is still an important source of information for people know what's happening and in terms of your coverage of this administration, how many

Stories do you think of too many in a day is it possible to think about it and those terms? Where do you decide to focus? You know? I don't think I have some standard for the 12th of Donald Trump stories.

That's the right quality the United States you know is still in charge of the largest economy in the world and he will make a lot of news and regularly make news and I think on average.

There are 300/400 stories were Donald Trump is a prominent character in our report every week, so that comes down to something like one every 30 minutes 24-hours a day basically.

There's a lot of Donald Trump I do think the the way that we package and present journalism to readers is important.

We want to come help readers guide readers with set up some trackers for example, so if you're interested in the immigration issue.

A flurry of developments you can have one place to go to contract those things and if you want to go deeper on any of those issues with all like the chicken click and you can kind of get deeper on it, but you're not necessarily flooded with you know 1000 word stories on every single development and I'm sure you'll be familiar with a criticism the the BBC is sometimes on the receiving end of the new when's the many other news organizations which is that sometimes Donald Trump will say something or do something and some of his critical say he's simply doing this to distract recently doing this to to get attention.

Don't Woody saying seriously because this is a device to get your attention in the other saying that on this the president of America and he said X or y and.

We should report it, but there is an ongoing debate about greed which the news media should move on his every utterance or action.

How do you approach that that calculation I think you're right for tomorrow.

There needs to be some discussion and debate about whether something he said was an offer and Carmen design mainly just to get attention or whether there is a significant policy issue in the weather in a certain that he made actually is within the purview of the president to accomplish.

You know some things have legal limits to them some things are practical limits to the fact that he States and aspiration is not in another self mean that you would have a better headlines.

I'm a present for now x because we don't know that he will fall through so we do have those discussions, but you know I dial to push back a little bit on the assumption that we can just kind of dismiss things you know that in his first term of few times.

He mentioned is for Greenland right and you can sort out this mess that that's kind of you know outdated imperial is stream, but he doesn't seem to be forgotten and he seems to have double.

Down on the 88 acquiring some degree of control over Greenland and you know he's sent his vice president there.

He's authorised intelligence agencies to step up.

There's no one's there is quite serious about it.

So things that look like rhetorical flight of fancy can end up having real-world consequences put some of the claim to use to make about taking on the media legally and now we're seeing that he does have various cases against first parts of the media and I wonder from your impact.

Does that have on the New York Times do you see a wider chilling effect of this second term on the media of the New York Times specifically.

I would say no that we have a job to do when covering the US president fully and doing a full range of accountability journalism about all the aspects of his new policies and his.

Attention of powers well beyond the limits that we are associated with the presidency and will continue to cover that exactly as we see fit Without Fear of repercussions or lawsuit broadly well, I think you've seen many examples of different owners of media companies reacting in a variety of ways some warning to engender further scrutiny or interference from Donald Trump and you know speaking to shift the way the company's under control car that obviously the Washington Post has had a significant change under its owner Jeff bezos.

Who has a variety of other major business interests foremost is continuing authorship of Amazon but also a space Company all of which are much more affected by the Federal Government in the case of space Federal Government

Amazon of the giant retailer that encounters lot of regulatory issues and so we have to think about those things with respect to the Washington Post and how to wash and posters he made a significant shift in in is over side of the opinion operation of the post that caused a bit chill there and I think it it hasn't been good for that institution was at the moment.

You know we want to be strong and journalistic Lee centre.

They are still doing really good journalism on an individual level but they also lost a lot of good people as a result of that one example of a different approach a Donald Trump Mars before I was dropped by Jeffrey Gold by the editor of the Atlantic said when he says if you're looking for ideological purity you won't get that here.

That's not where about do you think there's a generation?

People say that the younger the younger Generations have a different approach to journalism.and and opinion than the older ones still doing that far too simplistic.

I think it's too simplistic.

Honestly.

I mean I do think they're there are people in Every Generation who wear their opinion on her sleeves and you want to see there media companies of choice of slapping your point of view we certainly hear that from readers of multiple Generations and we have many you know we've expanded our staff greatly in recent years.

I think we may close to €3,000 to cross the New York Times company now.

Do you have the same conversations the similar are you know we don't do ideological purity typed many journalist Theatre coming into the field now.

You may not naturally share their perspective.

It's a craft the craft of journalism is something that you can take for granted when you

People because increasingly we have to do that training and the building of the values that we can sort of Central to our journalistic mission or cells rather than assuming that day that somewhere else particularly if they got their start you know it's an influencer on social media or something like that.

They may not have come to us with those values in place.

That was joke on executive 7 time to success in building more than 11 million subscribers is a positive lesson for what's oftentimes Legacy Media now.

We're gonna look in more depth at the cut daytime television announced by ITV last week.

Just a recap Lorraine Kelly's morning show will go from an hour to 30 minutes and along with loose Women will now be on for 30 weeks a year rather than the current 50 to 220 jobs across the stations daytime output are expected to disappear in what some industry insiders have turned a bloodbath here to talk about the future of daytime TV

Channel is Bella monkham and TV presenter Kirsty Allsop welcome to you both can see if I just brought you in first obviously people know you have lots of programs but location location location its prime Time celebrating 25 years congratulations, but many of your shows not just that but I was also on daytime in some indeed have been made for daytime right fill your house for free and Kirstie's handmade Christmas what is your take on what's going on ITV renounced.

We know that we live in a completely different TV universe no one could have ever predicted 5 years ago that this change would happen and stream has altered absolutely everything but I do think it's really sad that these cups have come to daytime because daytime has a very low places where people turn their craft to a new producers and directors get their first chance.

It's a new Talent is discovered.

It's a gentle easier place and when the cuts.

Kind of television I think it's a bad time for all of the Legacy terrestrial channels on ITV have told us that daytime remains of really important part of what they do but as long as you say you know there are ongoing challenges with rising costs and reduce budgets across the across the TV landscape in your experience of daytime and is there a d20 comes to daytime in terms of quality or approach not anymore? I don't think there is Katie I mean.

I know that the shows that we make Kirstie's handmade Christmas which isn't being recommissioned this year because it's not repeatable I eat.

It's just something you can show at Christmas was made in such a way that it could absolutely have gone out at 8 p.m.

100% and if you make a Christmas Show a prime-time Christmas Show and there's no difference at all between those two shows the show the class what we do is we can have forgot so we.

All of the energy and time and craft into the daytime shows exactly that we doing for the prime Time show and we we reduce it a little bit I mean in eternal forward probably say they don't as little as they shouldn't that in that sense because they are daytime shows but I think telly has changed a great deal and how it's made there aren't cameras anymore which have day x x on that mean it's it's a very similar thing and all the shows that I make location location location love it or list it there are repeated throughout the day anyway, so it wasn't me that we've got an issue with this kind of day time budgets and Prime Time budget and actually perhaps it should be smoothed out a little bit and some of the Brian time money should go into some of the daytime shows because the difference in figure is not that some daytime shows get Farm of you as and sometime time shows in I'm going to bring in ballymun.

Come from Enders analysis to do exactly that's a bit of analysis.

Layout for sometimes of daytime TV many people probably think I know what it means but but how do we defined a time and what is the audience profile? Yes, I'm kind of party does what it says on the tin content that is during the daytime schedule so between about 9 and 17 and then within that you have sort of a collection of different genres, so you have the Good News magazine type shows that we're here would ITV and then you have the kind of hobbies and leisure viewing which is sort of travel home DIY shows and then you have panel shows as well and the profile of audiences again.

That's obviously people who are watching at home during the day so typically that audiences older more and more c2de skating which is the kind of Lower End of the socioeconomic scale and has changed in recent years so it's become a lot older predominant.

So about 5 years ago hold of years 2/55 to made up around 7 half of viewing to daytime and that's become about 75% now, but it's not just watch TV exactly so the drop-off is really careful on YouTube platforms and they're watching on-demand programs as well, so the changes really been there a TV talked about reinvesting the savings are making into drama and live sport does that make sense because I was drama people stream people want to go and watch we watch drama and perhaps in a way that are the programs.

I don't know and and live sport.

Will it brings in big audience is a bit interesting enough.

Yeah, I think I think there are a few things going on when it comes to the weather it makes sense which is partly like you mentioned earlier.

Have gone up so much that's to do with kind of information from world events, but also the streamers entering the Fray and they pushed off the kind of general.

And so they also do well on a keyboard platforms like you mentioned Richards broadcaster, video-on-demand things like drama reality and entertainment which is another one.

I think ITV mentioned sports obviously separate thing because it has to do it has to be come watch live but they're doing wrong on his evil platform which is where the growth in viewing is now kind of coming from yeah that what do you say to this point made by ITV that within a world where everything is more expensive to make concentrate on the things that are gonna dry.

Drive people to the streaming platforms.

I see the point that they're making but I come back to the fact that this disproportionately impacts farmer women watching daytime TV than men formal women working daytime TV shows 220 jobs that you mention Katie how many of those are women and

As well better said that the daytime TV Potter that is crafting hobbies.

There was a headline the other day which said granny crafts give you better mental health granny hobbies.

Give you better mental health and there's so many things that they done by daytime TV which are really beneficial for for everybody and I know that ITV are a business in a different way from for BBC so they don't have to concentrate on that so much but it's not just ITV that they doing cuts across the board in daytime and I think everybody has to look at the unintended consequences of these cups to date on telly so in your view.

Do you think daytime TV as we know it will can survive I think we need to have a look at it.

We need to look at the whole package and ask ourselves what we're chasing and why were chasing it because we may be trying to pursue numbers.

Viewers that aren't actually the ones we really want or really need you know this obsession with the 16 to 24 year olds that the theory film that has always been that they'll stay loyal and the 30-year olds.

Will you have them if you get them when you were young but we know that serious and true because we've seen them desert them all the channels for the streamers in the different platforms are all the theories on which so much television was based of evaporated.

They've gone and we've got to have a real sit down and look at everything as a whole and not just be a lot of this is very short termism and we're not looking at really what UK television has had such an extraordinary thing that we do we produce the best television in the we have the best independent production companies we it's so much employment so much of the work.

I do out of Glasgow with my production company so many people have started.

Companies thank you very much.

I should just read the state of my TV day x been a core element of ISA TV schedule for more than 40 years and remains a really important part of what we do to help with the TV industry is still facing ongoing challenges with rising costs of production and reduced budget.

They go on to say the scheduling and production changes when making to our daytime shows in the 26th will enable us to continue producing our day time schedule, but also generating savings which we will reimbursed in the other genres of you is also enjoy so that we go now.

He has tracked through the Kalahari Desert being chased by cheetahs and detained by the KGB and Simon Reeve is once again back on our screens this time in Scandinavia that over and all-round adventurer is known for his BBC series combining journalism.and travelogue in amongst other places Russia the Caribbean and the Equator and now the media show studio hello sign.

Why did you want to look at Scandinavia and more broadly as how do you come up with ideas for your programs because we over looks like you.

This is perhaps the happiest part of the world most successful arguably there is probably one of the most probably the most beautiful place in the world because it had a solid just to be clear in the advertising straplines over the weather in the world.

I think personally I feel like we collectively in the media or a bit over obsessed.

I would say with the United States and dispose of contrary side of me wanted to say look we don't only have to look across the Atlantic we can look to our people with culturally historically connected to and see how are you getting on an many Ares are doing rather well and paps.

Hopefully travel could be a slightly a tiny way of Us 2 learning about somewhere.

Give me slightly differently and actually they're doing pretty well.

Is it if you said no I don't want to go to Scandinavia he wouldn't go all how does it work with the idea.

They might twist my arm a little bit they being a colleague and also people at the BBC but in the gentlest way possible, but and vice versa I might try and say come on this is this is my passion project doesn't know Scandinavia was my idea.

How do we come up with an idea? I think we try and come up with an area of the world that is interesting and relevant.

There's things going on there.

Haven't seen another telly traveller there in the last few years now.

That is quite important and used to go to try and get a sense of weird things matter.

You are things happening in a part of the world which is going to resonate with with viewers.

Is it going to is it going to connect to it? So that's that's a part of it as well.

Can you do it so big as usual a big themes in this series from immigration to climate change? How do you go about analysing the complex issues in the context of a travel document?

Will I think mine are travel in the sense? I'm going on the journey.

There are genuine journeys, but they are also we are also struggling quite a lot of current affairs and basically a jumped-up journalist.

You know the programs funded by the current affairs department so I did a massive really really critical to deliver current affairs into the into the programs we come up with it by working out what stories are what's happening in wherever we're going and then I didn't I didn't find anyone we can talk to you about them location situations sequences.

You would call it is very chicken and egg definitely because sometimes you've got a story you want to tell her how we going to tell it and then sometimes we hear about something and then that gives us a whole new tell that we can we can cause the keeping it has to be fillable.

So obviously we won't be able to see it has no use us turning up and somebody saying I should be here last week that that doesn't work for us, so we've got to be able to catch it on.

We got to make sure that people are willing to chat but oh my goodness.

I almost always are people to talk people just want to talk to people want to share the stories.

I think there's more women or men than women we definitely try and we do work hard to try and get some sort of a gender balance in the programs on the screen that is always that is always a challenge.

I have to say I want to talk a little bit about your career because you began as a poster at the Sunday Times and I wonder what you learnt in the post room prepared you for journalism because I was thinking about how those entry routes are actually disappearing very hard now because it's very tricky to survive in London Housing costs.

I was very lucky.

I don't come from a wealthy travelling family.

I didn't know anybody in the media before I started in the postman, but my family did we were living in London that man I could stay at home I can stay with friends I could couch surf.

Now definitely I started as a post boy that was after I come off the dole I left school with basically no qualifications.

I went into quite a dark place frankly because I didn't know what was going to do in life.

I just got lucky job working in the post room.

Yes, and I was a bit of a blank sponge and what did you learn that everything it was my school it was my college with my university.

I learnt fundamentally that people are actually quite believe that the adult world as much more welcoming than I expected and I thought I thought life on this planet was as well.

I've been reading it.

I've been scared if we coming in at actually people are really friendly I can see these people can I do you in The Newsroom at the Sunday Times can I get you some can I get you lunch? Can I photocopy of cuttings? Can I help in some way and they took me on and they didn't just treat me as a gopher gave me responsibility so I took my chances, but they did Anna door open for me and I had a chance and within just 6 months.

I was doing research people took a chance on me and that transformed my life.

Lucky run and you wrote a book later a little bit later about the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing which then became an international bestseller after 9/11 predicted that when you wrote it, but it leads interesting job offers.

I think Britain several books on terrorism and worked on other books about equal in joyful subject that biological warfare Arms dealing nuclear smuggling so after 9:11.

I went from being obviously a very obscure or through a very obscure book a TV travel about the that leap as it were was based on let's find someone who can go to tricky places and hopefully tell stories in parts of the world that are often on the TV to my first TV programmes were in 2003.

I think it was travelling around central Asia it was late night TV that went on after Newsnight post pub television.

But people watched some people watched and then I got a more primetime chance to travel around the equator travel around the planet that was my break out as he might say TV series and to my astonishment.

I'm still doing it and did you really get asked by production company to try and infiltrate Al-Qaeda to do some really think I'm 11 people went mad and yes, I did have a talk with people who suggested that I should go undercover inside Al-Qaeda for a TV series.

I done.

I did not think that was a brilliant idea how I think probably not but you have for your travel series interviewed a lot of potentially dangerous people wear that Gang members in Honduras but how do you ask a question want to while staying safe you use your Instincts as much as anything and you'll have to grows from there.

You have to trust the people you or you're working.

Fixes your local producers do they know what they're talking about are they connected are they likely to step in I'm in jokingly? I would say you know you tell them about your family as well.

You want them to think this person to deserve to stay living of course but when I'm walking up to a gang leader in Honduras for example.

It's not just me.

There's a TV crew with me the exchange is obvious the Gang member sees who I am they see also the crew as well, so I'm not surprising them all of a sudden and to my amazing.

I think since they began this really from the beginning never ceases to surprise me how willing people generally Garden Centre to talk.

I don't think the world is a scary as we make out also you can reduce your risk.

You can be careful about the people you want to have a sense of who they are when they're drunk when they're on drugs.

That's a higher risk definitely and we've been in those situations, but also being a back of a vehicle for goodness sake that hasn't got a seatbelt.

Spend walking to talk to somebody who is agreed to speak to you.

Please stay with us because I've got lots more questions, but I do we want to look at travel broadcasting on new media platforms to you and Alfie Watson also who were the friend Owen would at 1 series 4 of race across the world you might remember that he was the youngest winner ever age 20 and Alfie nobody's travel content on YouTube and Instagram when he's got more than 700000 followers LV with Simon Reeve how does your hair and he said here with you again.

I'm so amazing for me.

I just tell us a bit more people about the kind of trouble content you produce real colourful circle moment for me.

I think it's quite a lot of what kind of sign and did early Doors in kind of what I'm trying to create now which is Which is an emphasis on places that kind of less explored perhaps talk.

Within the media, but focusing on the on the people on the ground to don't align with those political values and actually showing the way that we see different places and you know that we time is countries in the media can sometimes be really detrimental so I went to Venezuela in February and did a kind of all social media theories out there and it was just amazing speaking to some locals about the fcdo advise against travel to other parts of Venezuela and that was that was part of it, but one of the criticism that I got was actually that the government advise against travel in there get your travel insurance sorted again Simon said mitigating those risks about using your Instincts but it was just incredible to see the people on the ground.

I think that was saying that is really passionate about it so stories to share.

What do you think it? Is that attract audiences the online travel content rather than the more we might call more traditional travel programming.

Is it about authenticity?

Thanks, I'm is very authentic as well, but what do you think? It is a-trak people what do audiences say to you? I think there's the convenience of it in that you don't have to wait for a schedule and you don't have to wait for him to come to be able to watch it free time for Life you waiting for Simon's new episode you can you know people can go onto YouTube and find you know travel goes to Norway and Sweden exact convenience that has drawn a lot of people and like you said the authenticity the fact that there aren't kind of you know production teams and you know certain Ofcom regulations in the way.

I think that is a massive draw two people can kind of been away post what they like unfiltered but I still I still believe there is an absolute value in traditional programming and it's definitely what I wear.

I want to place myself long term but I just know that with the changing broadcast picture the way that I build myself now is digitally and I'm interested in how you make the money stretch because obviously travel keeping safe none of this is cheap.

So revenue streams come from many different ways, did you see the main one is kind of brandy also brands who sponsor a certain video edit Instagram video or a tiktok video your YouTube video and then you know the budgets are quite high and digital to be fair and then YouTube payout for advertising and you know it's not just about I'm very very lucky that I've got that I got shot race across the world because now I've got an opportunity to go and speak to pub in public places and you know there's only the motivational story from where I came from India and it's about utilising those platforms in as many ways possible and time and Reeve I know you started off on smaller budgets and what do you think you gain and indeed lose with more money in a show like yours, would you ever considered being on YouTube what we were doing and because I do basically believe.

In what the programs we make more money can be very helpful to me more toys definitely, what do you mean by toys toys under in camera equipment? Yes it can mean having more people with you have specific specific skill sets to operate those toys that can be helpful, but then that can also mean you just end up with more people at the moment after my programs for a Wii Fit into 24 wheel drive vehicles 670 bus with you all the other basically so there are benefits, but you don't want to have to Bigger footprint.

I think wherever you go because then you become like a whole caravan of people impose myself in a situation changes dynamics in a small community in a village for example you want to find the balance and you want to be able to extract and film as much as you possibly can and get capture the

You can't help but I'm going to say no to it can mean anything time as well.

That's very expensive and costly, but yet so feel free Katie video so we'll use it got a very big budget hair will definitely got some times to share not well.

Thank you both.

I'm afraid we've run out of time.

I must say that Simon Reeve in Scandinavia apologies is on BBC iPlayer right now Alfie we can find you straight away as well on YouTube and Instagram thank you both and thank you.

Everybody listening and watching this show thanks to all my guests will be back at the same time next week with rolls good who's in the news for all the wrong reasons step inside the world of crisis management and so spin Doctors with me David yelland and me5a Lewis in our podcast from BBC Radio 4.

We tell you what's really going on behind the scenes as the week's biggest PR disasters unfold.

Used to be on opposite sides of a story in the media when I was out of the sun and Simon was communications secretary to the late queen now.

We've teamed up to share everything we know about what's keeping those big stories in the press the great philosopher King Mike Tyson himself once said everyone Has a Plan until they get punched in the mouth and there's a lot of people punching people in their mouth in this town listen and subscribe to watch it on BBC sounds.