Read this: Gary Lineker fallout

Play music Radio podcasts by Ros Atkins this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome in a moment former grandstand presenter Steve Rider on Gary Lineker's BBC departure focusing on investigative journalism as 3 journalist share, how they got their stories but we're going to start with Gary Lineker because after this weekend's match of the day he will depart.

Sea of the more than 25 years the plan had been for him to still host next season's men's FA Cup and the World Cup but Katie that is not going to be happening.

It's certainly isn't Gary Lineker shared a social media post about Zionism that included an illustration of a rat historically an anti-semitic trope that was last week by this Monday we knew he was any posted a video This is part of it, but everyone some personal news last week.

I share the post to her on Instagram that contained an emoji that is awful connacht unfortunately.

I did not see the emoji if I had I would never ever have shared it the minute.

I was made aware.

I quickly deleted the post and went on to me, can I would like once again to say I'm sorry unreservedly for the hurt and upset caused it was a genuine mistake and oversight when I should have been more diligent.

Gary Lineker also said it was the right time being to leave the BBC and said this it's been a pleasure and a huge privilege working with the BBC 4:30 especially hosting Match of the Day a program.

That is so close to my heart and an integral part of my life and Katie while this was confirmed on Monday by Friday last week.

It was like a very likely outcome.

Yeah, I certainly thought that it will come on Friday after conversations.

I'd had with people on the inside.

I think the decision was made that they didn't overshadow for any announcement that overshadow the FA Cup that was happening on Saturday but by Sunday and reported this late on Sunday night and the conversations that were being had and the briefing that we've been given well that his position was untenable so was very clear that this was happening and corseted then happened on Monday

Ringing someone who worked alongside Gary Lineker at BBC Sport first that Steve Rider former presenter of grandstand the Masters golf and the Olympics he gave us his reaction reaction was it really this should have happened about 2 years ago.

It was inevitable.

There's been a succession of papering over the cracks and compromise agreements and so and I think it is a great thing that I think you can get out of bed now and put his used for dinner father more free and forthright manner is great for the BBC because the way forward is now a little less cluttered buy it is Tuesday and why do you think those issues carried on what was going on behind the scenes in your view the first part of Gary's career from about 92 onwards good guy.

Good company good presenter, but he was always slightly different within the mix.

I'm on the course he arrived.

England goal scoring record with butter sauce shame but he also arrived with a big Walkers crisps sponsorship deal, which was the end of all of us because that wasn't part of the BBC contract the talk we were told at that time.

Are you there was because to deal with ongoing and it'll all be sorted out over the next few years and it wouldn't be allowed to continue it turned into about the biggest sponsorship with any BBC presenters ever had good luck to him for that, but it was an example of the compromising compromising that surrounded his progress through the BBC and and eventually those compromise intolerable and the kind of inevitable end in the way that we saw over the course of the last week.

Did it feel like one rule for inside BBC Sport One rule for everyone else it did the other things about Gary football presenter you learnt very swiftly.

He was didn't have the

The of the Gabby Logan or des Lynam when he straight outside football it was uncomfortable he went into gold presentation and it clearly was his thing and it ended up making some rather it will charge comments about the RNA who are the rights holders to the Open Championship in this country.

You know it's certainly produced an atmosphere that made life very very difficult indeed.

Just explain a little bit more about that because it was characterised certainly that you had a falling out over the golf is that fair? Yeah? It was a different kind of product to being a football presenter was out of her comfort zone that he'd occupied very visually but when it came to the Open Championship he wrote A Rather sour peace and a golf magazine.

I've got a call from people they working on the outside.

The open so we can't reply to an article like that.

Could you so so, I did and inevitably with these things ended up on the back page of the Daily Mail and we haven't actually spoken since you know the point I made I thought we reasonably fair and if you put it in Gary this world at the moment.

You know when you feel that something is wrong stand up and say so and that's exactly what I did about 10 years ago, but hopefully we'll meet over in the week because he's a good boy and Steve whatever the rights and wrongs what happened with Lineker in the BBC golf coverage you continue to be an incredibly successful presenter of the footballer who presented BBC Sports Personality of the Year as well at what point did you become aware? He was starting to become more and more political in his statements particularly is statements online and what was your reaction when he started doing it because it was quite unusual to say the least for a BBC Sport presenter to start.

Dating on political matters across maybe not the political stances but also it happened at that time.

Is is the Gary for me to say rather than people within the BBC I mean the level of his contract was crying for him to be earning 4 times salary of someone like Gabby Logan who had a wider portfolio broadcast Commitments with a busy on the BBC Sport TV that was absolutely extraordinary and it gave the impression that the Gary was untouchable that he was above and beyond everything else that was going on the BBC at the loud that contract to to inflate to such an extent that every time the subject came up of BBC cost cuts BBC value for money etc the hand went off.

Gary Lineker Steve surely, it should be possible for the BBC 2 award large contracts if it seems if it decide that value for money for the licence fee pay but still have the ability to exert some control over what those presenters are doing in terms of their sharing of opinions presented the greater control over that presenters behaviour if your Birmingham 50 quid a week is going to stand up and you know I think that he is not going to be particularly committed to the PVC if you're paying somebody 1.4 and they're really dialled into the structure of the BBC future is aligned with the future of the BBC so why do you think the BBC couldn't control do you think it was because it was trying it wasn't working or just simply wasn't trying hard enough.

I think I think it was just compromising compromising the ultimate compromise came right at the end, which was

Battling that does a garage door step aside from Match of the Day over come back in a year's time of present the World Cup and son that is so disrespectful to the to the presenters of you put in place and it was that sort of indecision at the highest level BBC that eventually created the situation that became such a mess last weekend.

What should have happened 2 years ago was Gary to say I'm going to step aside.

I want to do other things I want a stronger voice on other topics I appreciate the relationship with that.

I've obliged to have with the baby understand the regulations and the policy of the BBC that has made BBC News the greatest news organisation in the world.

I don't want to compromise that I will step aside that is what should happen.

He's an incredibly popular presenter.

He's a very good presenter.

He's very knowledgeable about football he's been the face of Match of the Day for 26 years can that shows of

Now him do you think Steve and survives with other presenters as well? It hasn't presented every single edition of Match of the Day for the last 20 years programme is it is a football highlights programme and I know you know when I work with Desmond viable all those years ago.

We would have chocolate about the role that we hadn't the understanding that we had the whatever that whoever the presenter was for a sporting event at the sporting event was attractive enough people will watch it the main part of the content of match of the day.

It's the football watching it now.

I've already seen that football and perhaps what people want now is the exactly what people like Gary Lineker the present with him right Alan Shearer those Insider thoughts on exactly what's going on in the dressing room.

What people are saying you feel like they have those insights.

I'm not sure I think to the football fan that goes to match on the Saturday afternoon.

Probably hasn't watched like original hasn't dialled into the fees it is a destination to end the day is in the pub come back and watch it all on Match of the Day the action content of Match of the Day is absolutely paramount and it will survive because of the quality of that content create another that somewhere else to to examine the technical nuances of the game on the chatting the gossip and everything else and if I was doing that one online with his podcasts and Steve you describe a conversation that you have concerns about how the BBC has handled Gary Lineker within the organisation because I wonder if you feel that one of the reasons the BBC has ended up the situation with Gary Lineker is that he and his regular pundit such as Alan Shearer have such influence within BBC Sport that actually the executive didn't feel able to say.

What's the Gary Lineker's post on social media this needs to stop yeah? I think I think part of it is down to the to the change in Focus of the whole of the BBC Sports department in Bluetooth Salford didn't help when I was around and saying you know when I was around in the focus of the BBC Sports department was grandstand everything said and every conversation came out of grandstand grandstand was a meeting point for the entire sports department that doesn't really exist anymore so you get the little unit that's doing Match of the Day you get the unit this afternoon athletics or a little unit that's doing Wimbledon it doesn't seem to be the corporate communication within the department and I'm saying that from outside and that is that I get from outside and you have to contrast it with the way the department was offering operating when it was a television centre all those years ago things have changed things have changed.

Maybe the whole powerbase and power structure has changed as well, but the BBC needs to control those little pockets of employment before they get out of control and just give us one more question which takes us back to Gary Lineker in his social media profile which is he clearly if you watch interviews with him in a pass.

He clearly took the view play the BBC changed its social media guidelines with him in mind but he clearly took the view.

I'm a football presenter.

I don't work in news and current affairs.

I have a right to voice my opinions and I should be allowed to what do you say to people who say they agree with that he works for the BBC is the highest one of the highest profile presented within the BBC the BBC works very strict guidelines which are absolutely fundamental to the creation of the best news operation globally and anything that.

Damages that or impacts that should be rejected immediately and Gary needed to to accept that himself which I only see half heartedly and I think working for the BBC is a different kind of responsibility well that was Steve Rider talking to us early and we're going to continue to explore all the Osmond when the media editor for Sunday Times and the football writer and broadcaster Henry winter welcome to you both was mind if we start with you.

There was a lot in that to take that I've been down with the impression that Gary Lineker was untouchable, but I wonder what your reaction was to what you've heard from Steve writer agreed with a huge amount of that the people that BBC to talk about Gary Lineker issue over the ovaries me is actually interview recently one of many interviews.

10 things that struck me profoundly is he has a mental block about? Why he isn't allowed to eat in the way it was now.

I'm not talking the Intu gym pre-order very clearly and anti-semitic posts.

I'm not speaking about that here but in terms of he thought he was raising humanitarian issues around Gaza and he said we can do that around Ukraine why can't I can't we do that here and then it's sort of you know and then he even mentioned Walkers and I was allowed to do that right and then I said will cost you a lot opinions on football England thinking because very clearly there is a difference here and that should be obvious to him and thought oh yeah pinions on that so he could not see that was inappropriate working for the BBC how do you think I'm Roger Mosey forward director of Sport for the BBC weather in the time from the first outbreak of the more political Lineker the BBC was feeble and should have.

And told him to stop do you think the BBC Good and manage it differently if they got in earlier little bit more sympathetic and some people be about why that didn't have no he is a phenomenon broadcaster.

He's really popular you know somebody banana.

He lives near me and I've seen the way people so you know this mildmay.

See him.

He's a very successful business when you leave building his own business and so I can see why he seemed immensely powerful and also you know why you didn't want to rock the boat.

So you do it in this sort of steps and caused the rules were changed in 2023 because of him and that he's obviously completely broken it was because this is clearly such a breach of in a guidelines but but yeah I can actually understand little bit more ways other people.

That's what I thought I should have a long long time ago.

I did my differences the things that frustrate me so much about BBC always scandals around behaviour and this one yes, but I just think the little bit more understandable because you have somebody who is performing.

What counts a decent colleague and all those things and I can see that he could be just thought his Twitter Twitter was you know his own own domain and you mentioned that you interviewed him recently you didn't put that I'm I'm intrigued by this ever since I've heard that's because the Telegraph obviously didn't before and they ran there's but you didn't run it was yours different goal hanger so podcast company that I'm so running through his agent and so my feeling about it was and actually observed to be very unique anyway last week.

So sorry because I do an investigation to read websites completely everyone working at work consideration to hear so effectively I could tell me wina limbo.

He would like to obviously as you need to go imminently and it felt the wrong moment in terms of

Haven't asked him about something that is clearly very offensive to a group of people and people in the UK and it felt wrong to me about moment is an ethical decision ultimately and you know Dennis you'll have to meet me at times.

We will come out it just wasn't the right moment for it bring you in as you were listening to Steve the talking to you making a range of facial expressions.

I wonder what your thoughts were.

I mean.

I agree with that with a lot of what Steve says I think that I think that was really touched on this the moment Alex K Chelsea came in as head of Sport at the BBC that was a huge moment and I thought well that's going to be interesting with Anika I know Alex well after about what 3940 years in Fleet Alex in the top 3 sports editors.

I've worked under and what hasn't always happened at the BBC but what was always going to happen when Alex walked into the building was that you had someone with.

Who is going to stand up to individuals like like Gary Lineker all the points Lineker is a fantastic broadcaster, but if you're going to follow these of the dressing room code which is effectively you are always in breach of contract in terms of your club your bring your club into disrepute who's bringing the BBC in the disrepute particular problem said the the fact that the social media walls with changed and I just think that he couldn't keep poking the bear.

I would understand this BBC Sport situation you say the new head of BBC Sport comes in and he was going to stand up to people and two things one exactly was he standing up to not just Gary Lineker was there a broader culture that he had to stand up to the BBC's going through a time of change particularly in football.

I can only speak from a football in perspective and I think that anyone who looks at BBC coverage, whether it's the law.

Of a right two matches with the debate about Match of the Day and the BBC quite rightly say the viewing figures 3.5 million for the match of the day is very resilient with silicon climate the is part of Gary Lineker you then got this conflicted debate which the BBC really have to get a grip on of what do they want? Do they want it to be highlights programme which Steve Rider was with suggesting or do they want it to be in analysis program and the media landscape has changed the last for 5 years and this is where Alex aglc will be absolutely on top off because of his work with the athletic performance of the asset and that is far more you can't move 4xg for analysis and so it's what the BBC got to work out what the public wants and there was a move towards and Alice is all the highlights.

I mean I mean anyone who's interested in football have seen all the highlights before 10:20 on a Saturday night.

So it's a question of what you want person.

I like the analysis but there is analysis on tiktok fans channel.

YouTube on the athletic and I can get the highlights during 3:00 games but because of the ongoing success of Match of the Day and Gary Lineker central part of that you've done lots of things for BBC Sport the years regular contributor on Radio 5 Live and elsewhere to did you pick up on a sense that there was a real powerbase there around Gary Lineker and the other and the other people who appeared on Match of the Day regular put them in a different bracket to the rest of BBC Sport performing internationals.

I mean I Saturn in the front of the press conference at euro 2024 last year Gareth Southgate and Harry Kane would get stick from Alan Shearer and Gary Lineker partly on TV book more on goalhanger the podcast and we put those questions to Gareth Southgate Santa Harry Kane I said former England captains and strikers record goalscorers in and Gary Lineker has said this about you now the 3% as you've got coming in all fantastic journey.

What's happening Kelly cates, Gabby yorath.

They are all brilliant journalist fantastic presenters and they do a great job in this sort of rotation that Alex has brought in for a for Match of the Day but they don't know I'm not going to go into a press conference to say to Thomas tuchel by the way Mark Chapman has just tweeted or said that actually hurricane should be captain anymore Lineker had that gravitas a coming back to your point.

There was a lot of power that came with because of all the caps that records the playing career as well as the fact these exceptional presenter and you're missing and I'm going to ask her why the question which obviously relates to this which is in the current climate.

Do you think football fans particularly younger football fans actually care about the concept of impartiality when it comes to their sports presenters because I can say is being filled with both sides, but I have had a lot of contact from people saying we're happy that Gary Lineker was saying these things was really good point and I think maybe the younger generation.

Will not I can't take one side or the other on this is far above my so small intelligence get my brother on the Bright one on the subject but with this I would absolutely saved there are people younger people who will absolutely agree with Gary Lineker and remember.

This is a slightly tiktok generation and they do like the sound Bites they do like what Lineker producer on his fabulously successful podcast and that is the way forward and Match of the Day which is brilliant is going to have to keep an eye on it it may be the way forward for some consumers Roscommon from the Sunday Times the BBC and Tim David address of general is absolutely at the moment solid that the BBC's entire positioning in the media ecosystem of this country relies on impartiality doesn't sound like a man who's interested in compromising on mean it is notable that he just gave a big speech about the importance of trust in the BBC at so now and obviously we've got charger and you're all the things that.

General worry about coming up and so yeah, it's a good moment to draw a line under this.

I would say ok well.

We could keep talking about this.

I'm going to have to bring it to an end Henry winter.

Thank you so much for coming on the programme.

Thank you to Steve wild of his contribution earlier was Owen you're staying with us for a little bit longer.

Yes, because we spend some time now looking at one of the most difficult and in parts of journalism investigative journalism and want to get an insight into the techniques and practicalities of both finding stories and then getting them published three people are going to help us first the BBC Santa bag who has been instrumental in opening up the family courts to reporting in recent years.

She's got a documentary going out this Sunday on Radio 4 called the three babies welcome to the pub.

That's talking about that particular investigation which all started with the story of baby Elsa just tell us about her and why you started looking at her case.

Looking at her case because I saw the newborn baby has been found just minutes after birth in a park in East London and that was a story that got a huge amount of coverage.

It was really interesting this was at the same time as a family court for opening up so I found the hearing at East London family court went to the hearing and at the very first hearing the judge said there were these two other babies.

They were siblings Elsa could be their sister and she wouldn't let me publish that then I did get a transparency all that was able to publish other details about baby Elsa but I carry the following it and pie younger post from someone reporting join me in the hearings and we made joint applications arguing that it was really in the public interest we should be able to report this and after report the sibling link the sibling.

It was absolutely crucial because coverage of the other two babies are coming away and the police investigations.

As well, so we knew that if we could report the sibling link that would be a whole different kind of story and so we persevered with this eventually we got permission able to report and that I think created such a lot of interest achieved an objective of focusing on the mother.

Not just these individual babies encourage the police not only to do more but to tell us about what they're doing and the police then since gave you access to their operation.

Why didn't they wanted to work with the media and what insights did that help you are well.

I think they wanted to work with us because it was a way of again getting a message out to the mother that they were worried about her that they wanted her to come forward City usually does help in these kind of investigations that really rely on cooperation from the public.

So that was one reason but another one which I think it's really interesting is.

Senior police officer said they were taking their cue from the Family Court the transparency that was now being adopted and they thought it would build public legitimacy if the police followed suit that's why they gave us access to their operation and it's very interesting and will tell you more about it on Radio 4 in the documentary on Sunday so one bit of your work, then heading to another bit of your work because obviously was saying earlier as an investigative journalists.

You've worked on opening up the family courts which have traditionally not welcome places for Janice how have you done that but I would say just by doing it by demonstrating that you can report responsibly and carefully and by winning the confidence of obviously people whose cases your following but also to the confidence of the judiciary who can see that you haven't come with an agenda that you are simply faithfully reporting what you see in here and whether that reflects well or badly on the courts.

The point is that they decided to take this route because there was such a lot of missing information about the courts, but I would also as a journalist who has done investigations for a long time is really just a stick with something there is some stories.

I don't know if you have any Katie that I've start with 1517 years.

I mean I started reporting family courts in 2009 so I think that that's key but back then in 2009 was the attitude of the judiciary very different to journalism and Jan less than it is now I think they didn't really understand.

What was required a chance would come in and be happy to give us a little flavour of what was going on in the course of course.

That's useless you need to be able to report what you see and hear have access to key documents and crucially to talk to people because the family courts have the most powerful effect on people's family lives they can change so many lives forever and that's why it's so important that they're open to scrutiny and I've reported cases.

That went smoothly and cases that really not going smoothly at all and is that your message to budding investigative journalist just keep going yes, but also be humble really always say that you don't know if you don't understand something say it and I think that's that's really important as well sometimes has done this to you and we can be terribly full of ourselves.

I think it's very important especially for going into a new area you would knowledge that you don't understand something I want to join us in school in the US and one of the things.

I really remember from that with a tutor who's there are no stupid questions always always ask cos if you don't understand of course, how can you explain it to someone else absolutely that's very good lesson to live by will Santa bag at the baby's mystery or document you'll be broadcast this Sunday on Radio 4 at 1:30 p.m.

Thank you very much for coming on the programme from the salt.

I'm still here and you were mentioning a little bit earlier was that.

The story about the BBC and the hue Edward scandal and that was a story that was many months in the making the 19 years yeah about what sort of 7 months in total because I had a series of SOS but to get it baby.

Yes, yeah.

There's six months of waiting for one particular otherwise down for a freedom of information for people who don't understand journalists often use fly just take a through when you decide to to put one in.

What do you actually do say you submit a request an organisation that obviously not all organisations are subject to confirmation request so tends to be the government bodies to the BBC obviously because of the expanded and restrictions colour question BBC so I couldn't request anything later journalism specifically which dog is actually right because you wouldn't want your journalist.

You know what did the request?

So I had been quite frustrated that there were few things we did a lot that we didn't know about what has happened around you AdWords is departure from I'm so I asked for the internal emails between 4 people that I'm allowed to ask for them so director-general Tim Davie adventure activity at the time and to senior directors and from that what I was hoping to see was an awareness partially around the number of complaints which one of things I've been trying to get hold of cos we still don't know how many complaints about you.

Where would conduct still don't know that number and when you put in a request for emails written these for executives.

How does that work is the BBC obliged to go OK well? Here you go or can it contest your request can it's a will give you some but not these for various reasons.

Prising later love things that they don't have to provide you with obviously I can claim legal reasons for not handing things over obviously there's other people's data in that has to be protected and yes, it was a battle of 6-months to get the final bundle.

Yeah and the emails arrive the ones that you were giving some of them would have been redacted to protect some information such as the information you were rude to presumably then once it arrives you to try and work out how you can stick to this all together especially given that some of the emails you don't have all of the text you have missing a huge amount of information.

I think of it as a puzzle with Missing Pieces And so puzzle say my way of looking at it is that getting me foi request actually back and something back is the first victory but really it's one of the first minute because there is so much work then has to go in to work out.

What it actually means and all of the reductions tends to obscure meaning so you know it's trying to place when people are talking and the biggest challenge.

Was there was something about a much it was seems obvious from the context about a much earlier complaint and I thought it's been made.

It was never been sent Tim Davie warning of a much earlier complaint about your AdWords and I had to prove when it was and who were sending it, so was it being sent my form of BBC employee which I believed it was and it was and was it being was talking about the Saville enquiry as in the enquiry to do with Jimmy Savile but there's nothing worry and yes, it was so that dated that complaint to 2012 it.

So you managed to establish some of the details of that particular line worry.

I just wondered finally having worked on this for months and got the story into the press on Sunday is that the end of your work on the huw Edwards scandals? You think there's still that you would like to understand.

I still feel that haven't been answered and I think some of the people victims and people who make complaints feel the same way there.

Thank you very much indeed for the moment.

It is the BBC said that it believes that you had with should return the money paid to him by the BBC that was part of your reporting covering the period between rest and his resignation and also perhaps point out on the BBC's behalf that complaints that are made could end up being complaints that there was no further answers to answer put the BBC Points just there as as they put them to me.

They are right well guessed is Patrick Butler from the Guardian who along with Josh Halliday last night one privatise 2025 Paul Foot Award for investigative and campaigning journalism Patrick very many congratulations.

Thank you.

Was it a good night was a fantastic night? What just explain probably weren't there last night and don't know about it.

What was your investigation into the treatment of unpaid care?

We call it the Carer's Allowance cancel.

So this is about 5 million people in the UK who care for loved ones, so they do that full-time and their caring for parent or something daughters or Partners and some people do that three others are allowed to claim £83 a week benefit and discovered was the 10000 worth tens of thousands of carers for falling foul of the earnings rules of this benefits of another word.

They were doing part-time work out to work at Twitter number of hours and then a certain amount of money about 151 quid last year and but if you cross that limit if you were more than that limit then Julie you have to repay the whole of the benefit so that if you went over by a penny for that week if you would have to repay £83 that was the first problem that.

And the second problem was we realise that DWP the Department for Work and Pensions was being new of evopayments as they happen because they got electronic alerts from HMRC but they weren't telling the carers as a result the carers were running up unwittingly Running Up debts of thousands of pounds pounds of periods of years some of them have been prosecuted as well for fraud, so we got hundreds.

If not thousands will be prosecuted and worry investigation was really what happened a while and it was I remember it was a really important story what how did you come across it and a why do you think those it hadn't emerge before we have that about the best kind of German it is at Innova staring us in the face innocence, but why was nobody covering this comes down to carers?

Carers and acknowledge, they don't have a voice they're not politically important possibly they are a bit more now, but they haven't been and I think that was very much.

It was a frustration a month and carers.

They weren't being listen to that they would but they emailed me and what kind of push back.

Did you get it? I'm sure it was a difficult one to to investigate but how how difficult was it you know it was actually quite simple in some ways you have to get your head around the benefits because there is it stored in a really complicated and you'll have to find ways as a journalist of explaining these complicated benefits and how the rules work and why people for foul of the rules it's hard, but the other bit is actually quite simple it's listening to people so we were getting carer's contacting us when you're putting call out to carers and is often people who won.

Guardian readers but of course these days, they will be in talk bored so or Facebook groups.

Where are articles that they wouldn't read in the Guardian get shared email you can they say this is happening to me or can you believe this technique and that was the starting point really so we just talk to them and we listen to them and the Huntsman DWP the response from the authorities.

What did they say?

Initial response from the Department for Work and Pensions was frustrating so at least essentially they were suggesting that there was Amelia problem here nothing to see and let's move on.

I think we got the impression that they thought we have the Guardian had a bee in my bonnet about this and it would to go away and get on with whatever it won't stay wants to prioritise.

Why do you think your story capture the public's attention that did it certainly did I think it's a good story in it passes that blood boiler test so when when I was writing the story or I was actually researching.

Sorry for a published first story.

I will talk to you working on tonight.

Give them a like a 2-minute pitch and that was a really good way of sort of finessing story that you gonna write you explain.

Sorry, and they would almost invariably say what the hell and it was that succession of what the hell's that made me think this is a story.

It's work, so we published the story and we thought it was a great story, but it all these comments.

Was you wondering he's in the catch fire.

You know you will keep publishing 4 weeks, but it needs something else to to take it to the next level and people were quite lucky with timing because the first thing that happened was daytime.tv picked up story and daytime TV of course recognise that this is there cool US visa people at home last of the day and watching daytime TV so they were great but we're thinking fantastic panel discussion on debate on its second thing that happened with General Election so about 2 months after we started writing about this.

Politician started getting around things to talk about this was something that people would have heard about the third thing that really lifted this up with the post office cancel all of the people started talking about the Carer's Allowance scandal as like the post office cancel selling gave him a framework to understand story absolutely a bottle of the Guardian winner of the Paul Foot award very many congratulations we can get there cos I've got one more question for Osmond we do just very quickly Ross people may have seen the new ITV is an ounce quite significant cuts over 200 Jobs go and just put that in in context for us.

Please devastating to people working and actually we've just heard about the importance of daytime.tv.

Some of the places that these things I got paid up and Lorraine Kelly shows going to be particularly hard-hit according to the report on there.

So you know that and it's only on 4pa.

And some of the stuff is currently made by ITV Studios is going to move into be made by ITM should we see this as part of the broader shift away from Lydia schedules towards seeing budgets moved into streaming products ITV drama here and obviously they have had a huge nominal insane success in the UK at least of post office drama.

See you can see they're doing many things about that very successful, so I think that's what it is yet.

This this colour TV is important for just the reasons.

We had highlighted.

Yes, we talked before about the evolution of the TV industry and how premium drama is one of the main drivers of subscription for any of the streaming service is a huge emphasis on that not just my TV but others dreams other broadcasters to Roswell leave, it there.

Thank you very much indeed Terrazzo in midi editor of the Sunday Times thanks to the Patrick Butler the social policy editor of

guardian hand thank you to all our other guests.

Thank you all for your company on another jam-packed Media show but that's it from us for this week.

Thank you so much for your company.

Bye.