Read this: Self-professed media diva Tina Brown and Chris Best, cofounder of the publishing platform Substack

Play music Radio podcasts by Ros Atkins welcome after reform.uk successes in last week's elections in England with a look at how the media has handled Nigel Farage in this campaign and over the years we'll be speaking to the BBC's chief advisor on politics Rick Bailey to get his take.

explore claims that the Hungarian Prime Minister viktor Orban is subsidising media outlets who are supportive of his government but our first guests today our Media Legend and the Tech executive whose company now publishes her writing Tina Brown was editor-in-chief of Vanity Fair the New Yorker talk and also founded the Daily Beast news and on her substandard, which we going to be hearing more about she calls herself a transatlantic Media diva and then Chris best is the co-founder of the Media platform substack which is now home number high-profile names not just Tina brown or so many as and has spoken to the media show a few weeks back former CNN anchor Jim Acosta and soon as he told us last week Piers Morgan well, Chris best antidote Brown are both in London right now that Tina Brown's truth tellers conference we met up with them yesterday to talk about the changing Media landscape Tina's

Hell and that Prince Harry interview just heard about on hits the fan that began by explaining how the truth tellers conference originated as a way to commemorate her late husband the Pioneer newspaper editor for Harry Evans the idea was to create a solid which was what we've done.

Well our third year which brought together great global judges from all over the world who are true fact-finding fact-based no fat loving brilliant storytellers who I think I've never been more indispensable and Harry was so worried about the study of journalism and the trust and the collapsing trust all of the things we've now faced accelerated now that it was turned out to be a very good moment to start it and it's really becoming very exciting of them in the first panel.

Is tight will the press fight off old because one of the greatest user-facing is that Trump is really going after the owners of Media essentially with launching the very.

Hugely expensive lawsuits when he doesn't like stories and what was seeing is there folding and in a way a Jealous can only be as brave as the plan is on are you adding people to be braver than we are urging people not to give him not to give up to fight back because it is critical that American journalism maintains its freedom and it's you know river and its ability to ask questions which is eroding so fast at the moment and Ella number of incredibly high profile editor chips from Mallorca to Tatler and others I wonder what advise you offer to editors who are currently not feeling backed up by their owners.

How can an editor seemingly very figure within a news organisation deal with the pressure that some are being put under at the moment.

I'm actually leaving and I'm going to work at substack.

I mean in fact and we've seen this.

What were the Washington Post and and and and CNN is that people are saying you know what there's only so much I cannot do here and if this goes on I'm going to have to just jump so hard decision to make and an ear when you know media jobs in Oldham supply, but I know many journalists at the moment.

We're getting so frustrated by the community of their corporate earnings that they really are thinking in that direction and it was doing the conference you have also relatively recently gone onto substrate.

We want to ask you about that before we talk about yourself that we should establish, what's up Zack is bringing his best hello UK founded some stack for the uninitiated.

What is it? So I'm stuck is a new media app that you can go on your phone.

You can go and computer and it's a place you can go and discover a lot of the smartest in best independent thinkers culture makers journalists artists are kind of things I said pictures like that your mind right rather than give your agency of a social meet.

Keep on substack your subscribing to people you just driving to people that you trust her care about a value.

It's free to download and if you choose you can pay for it and at the start.

What was your pitch to write us to entice them to you and has it evolved over time you know there's three things you probably Karen is freedom there's prestige in his money and I cannot be prestige but the other two are going to be much better and so we better financially it's fruit for the people who are Great And Small differences often attend time difference with Moore and Tina Brown when did start when did Chris stop worrying you and very good at women are very annoying for a whole year.

I was going to give them a ring and he has an excellent editor who's based in New York he would make his Gmail calls suggested and blow me off but actually.

I came to really love the community of that right.

It's and I was thinking it obviously this is an interesting platform because I have attracted to it and I thought it would be more exciting to join something in you than just doesn't go back like a column or whatever and I like the Freedom in house.

I'm in the fact is that you can do really as well as you want to work essentially am I right freshhel my car is called which I feel is appropriate to our times.

I mean I write once a week and I mean look like a right five times a week and do 5 times better, but it is if some people write every day and then very good I have to say it something like that sort of telling you how you're doing all the time which people like I mean in a journal publish something in like the New York Times have no idea what that supposed to give you the numbers, but will they tell you how you were doing editorially with they go Tina I'm not sure that one where you know when I start it.

I did feel a bit like I was coming naked because I'm so used to come sending a copy.

Somebody to come back and the backwards and forwards to do that because I don't I don't like for me naked and with my husband follows as he was my ultimate editor.

I was so lucky to be married to you know a great editor who would it all my stuff so now I have something that is interesting that someone is experienced as you and as talented as you is still sort out someone to bounce your work off before you I need that I absolutely need that and I and I find it frankly to nerve-wracking but particularly in 2-days.

Well.

I have a reckless attitude to life and I do need somebody to say you sure you want to say because sometimes.

I'll go in I need that I actually need that sort of bounce back.

Yes, and we know from your is an experience of any number of other media figures that this is one line of work in the media world today.

The line of work which really made your name around the world as a magazine editor with Tatler with.

With a New Yorker talk and others do you think the the role you played I saw another Media outlet calling you an imperial editor that the other day but the grand editors of the 1890s in particular in magazines.

Do you think that role can still exist as it did I am a great believer in strong Gatekeepers and I think the things that are doing well do have the strong Gatekeepers I mean look at the Atlantic magazine in America where Jeffrey Goldberg in a he's revived in Atlantic editor and he's quite imperial.

I think actually inevitable as a woman.

I'm going to get called adeva.

I think that I just had strong taste tonight.

I think people are strong taste available everywhere whether it's film studios or whatever it's not an era, where those Gatekeepers a particularly in powered which is the problem but I think in places at significantly than the outlet does better and do you think the physical magazine is a cultural Force at the moment.

I'm in work.

I have to say as someone who absolutely loves.

Print and magazines I really don't subscribe to a lady you know I read everything on my phone.

There's a couple I subscribe to find that I subscribe to the New Statesman and The Spectator here, because I actually love that sort of I don't know it's a cannabis simple format but the old days of like the big glossy magazine with a scoop etc.

I mean unfortunately it all change for the moment when you publish the story find first I mean if they've all gone online first.

Why are you going to the newest and I wondered if I could ask you which channel is here.

We love investigations are the lifeblood of journalism and they are costly.

I wonder whether you think the substance model is a threat if you like to the type of investigations that you might want to celebrate, but I think it's much harder to do those things with an institutional structure and it is faster.

What's a legacy Media is dead.

I don't actually think that's true.

I mean my partner at truth tellers is reuters news.

I mean they do for normal invest.

They just won a Pulitzer for their huge 7 part fentanyl story it would have been impossible to do that as a lone wolf.

I mean you know you need lawyers.

You need a team.

You need people to contacts.

Just not possible to do at the moment.

I think on a platform like substack which is much more about voices, but I want to see both things have and I also do think that it's great to do these things in a 7-point invest you'll have to make sure people reading you so I think we've all got to be sorted very multi-platform now it making sure that we have other ways to get our store is out and I wonder how we compare the types of editorial and legal check the established Media organisation would go through and what substack does because in the latter part of last year of course you'll be aware.

There's no sign of the Atlantic which turned up and I quotes cause of white supremacists Neo confederate and explicitly not seen you on substack.

You are clearly a quite different Media organisation to establish news me.

What checks do you have even a media organisation and all subjects as a platform? It's a place where anybody can come in publish? We actually take quite a broad View of what's allowed on substack.

We started the company with a pretty firm belief in the Freedom of the press and freedom of speech and so we do have a set of content guidelines nearly construed and so there's a lot of stuff on subject.

You're a weirdo we don't try to set titanosauria rules for what people can say about my husband to be responsible for the publishing that they do platform say their platforms.

I'm not publishing entities.

So Chris is answer was very much what you know what they were all of the digital platforms what what do you think of that? I think myself that in many places.

It's just gone so too far that it's poisoning with culture actually and I guess if the quality material is so much louder at some stack that's a very good thing.

Other platforms where the grass and the victory and lies you know what sort of define it.

I certainly don't feel that about substack, so I think of all the evolved platforms out there right now so far more defined by the quality than it is by the stuff that I never said he's going to get on with those kind of Wight parameters, but how do you moderate then? How do you or is your view pretty much anything goes on our if you want if you want to sign up for your stuff so I can get driving from you.

You know the bar.

Do you have to cross cross before I'm gonna come in intervene is very high.

There is a bad.

It's sort of hate.

Speech.

Is it to deliberately like there's a lot of things on your persuasion that you will disagree with the point is that on your subs.

You are the other? I'm not you know I'm not stopping in and saying.

Oh, no.

You've got this wrong or I think you didn't you know any editorial perspective?

I don't it's not because I don't think that's a valuable thing to do is knock I don't believe in the power of believing all the same principles and subtract exist to provide a different things and one thing I did one of us as well.

Just your husband so Harry Evans was so committed to local journalism and I wonder whether you do see the necessary business model now to support local job is extremely dangerous is greatly added to the partisanship to clean the us because you know there's the thing about local news outlets is a community building in a you get to know your council you get to know the people in your community as well as of course exposing the malfeasance of town hall, whatever it is that you want it supposed to it's a terrible like when it's not there, but we are seeing some very good looking at it so when you got things.

Learning engineer by Yoshi Hammond's outfit which is now in 6 cities and it's remarkable when he started to take that as an example though because the meal was on substack and has moved on to another platform called ghost and the Millers said there wasn't any great falling out but one of the reasons they went to go to Simply that they were giving quite a lot of Aaron come to substack.

It's worth coming out exactly one of the great things about such check is you own your connection with your audience and so you have subscribers on substack.

We hope you stay forever.

We think you will but if you ever you know for whatever reason think I am going to go do something else ring and bring them with you can take you out who paid who was with you.

There's no arguing if you're a journalist if you're any kind of you know you have surprised that you're still not at the quality of my subscribers and I have to tell you that the main reason the end that I said yes, you ask me about coming was that was the fact that I knew this was now going to be my audience so that if I have like a photo book or I want to do a reach this audience.

You know these guys that I've

Interested in what I'm doing are actually going to be there for me.

Let's look beyond that one product and look more broadly at the media because of course at the conference you're organising Tina and more broadly the news media constantly asking what on earth is coming next that we need to be tuned into well.

I'm very worried at this.

You know partisan podcasting sort of influence.

The universe is going to expand exponentially here as it has done in the US I mean they have become these alternative platform.

So that's what I call the mega platforms.

They are very powerful and him to the point that now having a separate influencer White House briefing for all of these essentially completely positive Maga podcast as an influence they were so this is the democratisation of the movie would indeed accept that it's also a universities really committed to an alternative facts that they're not actually giving you the truth and its astonishing.

How many people now will tell you?

That you know that the mainstream Media is fake news is really penetrated and that's because it's been repeated again and again and again.

I'm always food outlets Chris best.

I noticed you appeared on the Joe Rogan Experience a few years ago.

I want to have that came about and what that was like that was quite an experience as it's supposed to be one of the Austrian hunting forum.

We can promise this is only going to go out for a few minutes from.

Where are we going to expect this may be different from yours and steeped in the US side of this but I feel like they're this shift that you're describing the shift to independent voices is just a couple but the future of that of that ecosystem has yet to be written basically.

I think there are there sort of we live in a moment right now where you can see both the good versions of it.

Existing simultaneously you know you mentioned The Gatekeepers are good.

I think that's true, but the thing that has changed as that The Gatekeepers catalogue people in any more.

There are no Gatekeepers I'm the only person you can listen to you kept your somewhere else and I just don't I don't think there's any way to put those forces back in the barn.

So to me the question is what's the best version of this new thing that you make how do we make sure that we don't throw the baby of journalistic values and telling the truth that all of these Hard one things out with the bathwater of a great believer invoices, but the fact is that voices alone cannot sleep out the truth of what's been happening in Gaza or sloth out the truth of you know what is really happening inside a corporation which is a detailed often data-driven hours long Uno scoring around knocking on doors.

I mean you can't get to the truth.

Just buy set up blowing off steam about your thoughts about it and we could let you go.

I'm going to talk about something.

It's even more Legacy the royal family wouldn't want to let you go without asking you as an Observer a long time jealous of the royal family what you made of Prince Harry's BBC interview that you can see a media strategy there.

I just think the media strategy seems to be a suicide vest I mean in his case.

I mean he he is still have locked into his essentially and keep sort of real trying to come from different angles to try to make it not a mistake and every time he does it doubles down and makes it more of them as being the way he left the royal family not leaving the royal family which I think was actually I expected him to it was a week and a crashed out with such a lot of noise and then always you know the things he's done since you know the book documentary and trashing of the family on the things that essentially have created this enormous Rift and it's not only about the security because the fact is before he left the Royal Family when I was.

Book the palace papers that mean they were all telling me that you know they kept saying to him.

You know because they knew that he wanted to leave is like you're gonna have a real problem with security in what's the strategy here and he just didn't really do I take it you don't want to deal with it and now and then it goes I'm stunned that this but from a media perspective is support as my say what is doing things differently this wasn't all interview the member of the royal family might give this was over half an hour of moving through a whole range of subjects with what I'm sure.

He would say was quite some honesty that resonate in a way that a more formal restrained interview doesn't Prince Harry could be an incredible to camera sort of video YouTube broadcast to ask about subjects that he is a very good communicator Harry actually it is by far the most talented in the royal family.

I think he just needs to stop trying to relate to get the past move on fighting a talk about it.

And use the media to that effect, I don't think it will be much better Media strategies to say you know what I'm deeply disappointed the court has spoken you know I'm so disappointed.

I'd love to reunite with my family.

I hate just wasn't smart to start the blame Game again in my view well.

That was Tina brown and before her Chris best and you can still catch the last sessions of the truth conference on livestream.

We can watch online later.

No party rally in March Hungary's leader viktor Orban said he would Crackdown on journalists judges, and he said was serving foreign interests and he can pay them to insects and next going to speak to Nick thought the BBC's central Europe correspondent Nick we've asked you to join us because viktor orban's government is being accused of giving more than 1 billion of a legal subsidies to media which is supportive of the government.

Nicholas just begin the story with who's making the allegations as well.

This is an allegation by 1 independent media.com the voice and one other bun named Media organisation and they're making the allegation to the European Commission basically.

They are trying to criticise the Hungarian government advertising are the way the government State advertising subsidies stayed advertising funds at channelled since 2015 right up to the present day.

I mean the 1.1 billion euros is about the amount which has been spent by different state organizations state companies on advertising improve government channel, so basically.

They are trying to criticise the government for they say this is unfair competition.

So they're trying to get the videos government.

How significant is government advertising to the funding of Hungarian medium? It's absolutely Central to the extent that they are completely dependant and it by depriving independent Media of that funding it's ready LED some of those Media to fold completely some major titles have disappeared name which was the main left wing daily paper completely disappeared several others have been taken over rather deserve are online news portal save popular on photos like index.org go they've been become predominant ones and they're what's left of The Independent media and I have to say they are still quite strong in terms of popularity.

They are depending on different financing models some of turned to subscriber based funding others of dependant on.

State advertising other forms of advertising and sort on so it's certainly changed enormous Lee the media landscape in Hungary since the current government came to power in 2010.

Is it possible aside from the allegations being made for you and other journalists covering the Hungarian Media to see a pattern where advertising is being placed and bought by the month in media organisations that would be leaning towards being supportive of the government.

Can we see that pattern absolutely yes, there's something like since November 2476 titles that are gathered in what's called the Central European press and media foundation in Hungarian and that is really focusing a government message.

So it's a very well coordinated message and I think this is also important to understand that this is how the government works that were as independent talk.

Media are functioning like normal Media would you know criticising the government on some things are criticising the opposition and the main opposition party participatie on other so they're trying to no one can argue that some of those overly critical of the government, but they don't have their working in a different way completely the government is focusing.

It's message.

It's effectively as the opposition would say it's a kind of propaganda organ and it's a very coordinated message.

I give one example of this is not just on the sort of state main public service government that on sort of sport and entertainment channels run by understate Media there something called a 1-minute news, so not normal consumers of news programs, but the government Focus is very simple very propagandistic messages.

It's campaign messages effectively.

1-year head of the election on those rapid 1-minute news slots so people really can't avoid it as well as of course all the advertising on YouTube on different social media channels and it's worth saying that hungry government did not respond to a request for comment on these allegations but Nick I wonder just paint a picture for us.

You were talking earlier about the meteor lands in Hungary right now.

What about in terms of the government's day today involvement is their day-to-day involvement by the government and operations of say the friendly Media outlets absolutely coordinated by a ministry under a government minister of national communications ministry under on child.

Can I give one example of it was giving me by a foreign correspondent for the state news agency.

Who I better not name because he might get into trouble but he said that until 2018.

You would send his reports to the state news agency.

He would see them reappearing sometimes with an adjective changed here or there are almost as he sent them but since 2018 and this is a government which has been in power since 2010 to the present.

He would find his actually been asked to send his daily news reports from foreign capital where he works not to his news agency, but to the Central communications office of the government where they're reshaped into sort of bullet points that carry the government and your somebody who lives in works there won't be slowly in terms of your personal reporting.

Have you faced challenges reporting from the country since the door guns rain and rain is the wrong word but you know what I mean.

Do you know I've been here 39 years a lot of reporting for the BBC so a lot of water as it were.

Clothes off a Duck's back and report as I would I don't allow the government.

Obviously just as critical or independent Media W I think you know I have an old-fashioned view of journalism that with holding those in power to account which I try to stick to I suppose I could mention one example.

I was reporting on a rally of the then you disappear party and it's leader and the opposition leader as he has become mentioned in passing he was complaining about what he believed was interference jamming of the Facebook Live that which he was carrying his rallies.

This was a head of the European elections on the June 6th last year and he said in passing from the stage and a BBC also here and

Entrust them at least to report on what I'm saying.

I was then personally attacked by name in the one on Twitter which was the government spokesman for even attending and attempting to report on a government and opposition rally.

I have to say I have been pestering his office for weeks to go on the campaign trail with Prime Minister viktor Orban but with the no response is rubbish, we're not well publicised in advance and I certainly invite so it's just one of the ways in which are very fierce not to say aggressive kind of government communication.

Not only is it focusing and getting out its own but anyone who doesn't carry that message or dares to carry critical messages long side of course in a lot of effort into carrying the government or reporting what the government same as well.

One can be individually targeted.

Thank you so much for coming on the programme the BBC central Europe correspondent now in last week's elections in England UK in the words of the BBC's election Guru Sir John curtice were clearly the winners the party won the most seats in the most votes and added to regional mayors and an MP to their hall, and we look at how the media has covered Nigel Farage and the various parties that he is lead over the years and also look at what reforms Media strategy maybe after the success of last week on the line by the BBC chief political advisor Bailey Welcome Break and thank you very much for speaking to us.

Hi, I guess my first question is about now will these elections change how the part is treated by the media to thank making judgements about the levels of.

the different parties get obviously you know the approach to reform is exactly the same basis on which we cover other parties and there's a sort of deceptively simple phrase which is the starting point which comes from Ofcom and guidelines which is past and current electoral support and what that means is you know we give coverage broadly speaking looking at how people have voted in the past primarily so interested with these local elections John Curtis in his and is of the results pointed out the been very much in England A5 party contest and actually are election guidelines looking at them during the process of the campaign had already anticipated that because looking at the various performances of different parties traditional costing local government election England you've got labour Tory

The greens have been really advancing in recent years and local government and so they had already become a party which was getting substantial coverage on same level as the other parties and although reform didn't have a track record in government.

They did do as you're no pretty well in the general election getting about 14% So we're already the conclusion that reforms should be getting that level of coverage based on past electoral support and with a bit of weight actually showing the same story you'll know if we do talk about the past but there are people plenty of people out there who said Nigel Farage and his party with that.

Was you kept the brexit party all now reform.uk she been given too much airtime in the past so but that that formula of past and current electoral support didn't certainly in the early days wasn't.

Now the media approach them, but the particular Nigel Farage to get a lot of their time.

That's not true that principle has been applied consistently across all period so when UKIP and Nigel Farage was beginning to get coverage.

You know they were getting substantial support in European elections that began to get sport local elections and they're also big is do well in your opinion polls Ofcom say that you should give weight to consistent trends in opinion polls maybe less weight than real votes but again in that period more than 10-years ago, UKIP were performing in that way and that was what was coming through in the way we were deciding how to give them coverage so actually that principle has been consistently applied across the whole period Rick stay with us, please.

We're going to bring to other guests in to talk about this with you and the grass is political correspondent at the Financial Times and James

Deputy political editor at The Spectator both of you you're very welcome and let me start with you if you look back at how the media interacted with Nigel Farage when he was reading UKIP and then leave the brexit party.

What are your reflections on the calculations the media made as he became more and more of a high-impact politician what record was saying about the kind of equations that we use my senses that outside of the BBC in perhaps outside of broadcast more generally there isn't quite the same and a screw output and it is more determined by you know what what readers in news what interested in what sells on one side and on the hall.

I think Farage is rhetoric and prizes parties and the kind of controversy that surrounds.

Has sold that's the one side of it, but also the sense that this could be a much much bigger force and it could grow into something much much bigger in British politics as you say that when it came to the brexit party and when it came to UKIP that didn't quite come off as matches and some poles does some specialist store and particularly some segments of the population, but I would say now you know you talk to pretty much any Alexa or and specialist or polster and they say that the reforms success in elections far supersedes anything from his previous parties and it does look as though a reformers is going to be a bigger Force in British politics in the coming years.

What about your reflections particularly of the of the 2010 Nigel Farage was accessible to the media.

Decade do you think that helped him build a profile? It would have happened anyway, what absolutely I think that Nigel Farage is very gifted communicator who was clearly saying things that prints lot of the Fleet Street press wanted to hear me to say he was obviously one of many years sceptics in the European Parliament but he was cleared the best which is what he said he came to become the UKIP leader and I often became the face of his campaign so 2014 the European elections, but I do think what's interesting is that with the decline of traditional Egyptian by that I mean the suppressed rather than necessary broadcasting rules they been able to establish themselves on the new platforms of social media on tiktok on Twitter and etc.

And I think he's become this sort of dynamic force which is almost impossible to ignore and there's a self-sustaining element about the wizard of active politics since 2023.

He was able to make the bank in international issue, which caused the the head of one of Britain's biggest bank to resign so I do think there's also elements electrician support from the press, but also in a changing Media environment the ability to adapt and overcome the barrier.

Sometimes it hurts at the block 2 minor parties in the past some commentators argue if we're looking to the Future the recent shift in reform UK and Nigel Farage is media positioning including writing the Sunday Times last week and tip ship Tim Shipman reference the video message that Nigel Farage on New Year's Day from Blenheim Palace as a moment when is his age characterised their experiment projecting him as a credible national leader in a palace rather than a pub.

That's just have a listen to a bit of that went today to be giving you this New Year's message Blenheim Palace not earlier magnificent place and a wonderful place to come and visit but of course the birthplace of Winston Churchill who represented something when this country was indeed a great country not just in time looking after its own people but it's signing up for the right things in the world and Augusta bring you back in I wonder how you perceive that because it was as I was.

Characterised as being you know the move away from his usual beer and hand man of the people down the pub image is that something that you've noticed that they're trying to shift the strategy somehow definitely I think there's been a professionalization of the output that's coming from the party.

I also think of you if you look at the tiktok his tiktok videos see more and more kind of Suits tie fantastic lighting always and what do you think is going on there? They are trying to make it more States absolutely no you can see it very much how to make him look more statesman.

Like trying to make me look more prime ministerial.

I do think there's still there is still content has been put out there which is more joke irreverent content that you associate with Nigel Farage he's joking.

He has a big comical laugh here.

Videos in and messages where he's swearing and he's completely dropped that I don't think and and and and it lots of ways of you were going to compare the content the out at Rishi Sunak or and Keir starmer with Farage putting up now.

He's still much more rev much more kind of silly, but yes, it's interspersed with much more statesman, like much more serious videos in and messages and let's bring in Bailey from the BBC again because as we've been hearing from our other guests Rick Nigel Farage has evolved his positioning in the media of all the type of content he's producing but how is the BBC calculate how much scrutiny and coverage a politician warrants beyond the votes that they collect because some would argue that Nigel Farage footprint in terms of the trajectory of

Hey politics goes beyond simply the number of votes he in his parties have received.

Yes, I mean the closer you after an election the more you need to take into account that electron position the same principle applies the rest of the time but obviously there are a lot of other factors.

So you know if you're looking at Parliament at the moment for instance and which might be based around the house of commons well, because the electoral system Reform and the greens.

Have you know 45 MPs where is a Liberal Democrats have 7th so the prominence will vary according to the context you look forward for instance there next year's very important to elections in Scotland and Wales so what we've been talking about so far is largely England in relation to the local election that political landscape is different different parts of the UK so all those different factors play against each other and in the end of it.

About what the story is and who is relevant to that story so that editorial judgement is still an important part of deciding who's getting coverage and what levels of coverage that sorry just to bring you in James you want insight into who's running the me just try see how do you perceive who's in The Innocent I think the most important to talk about has been to the parents on I'm a celebrity.

That was important to talk to members of riders in a circle in humanizing him suddenly went from being so divisive part of bomb thrower to some of my grandfather in that clip.

You play them Blenheim Palace he's talking about becoming a grandfather two grandchildren for the first time so he always at the Fleet Street press in human form.

That should make him laugh.

Make me cry make an angry able to do all free and that reflect the teams had they're a bunch of people who have been around to pretend 12 years or so and they come up and able to finish their techniques over European local and general elections and

Seeing him got a million followers on tiktok first UK politician to do that and that's why you very much and a very online able to save the world such as for instance the members come everyday for your stay and saying who's afraid of the very quiet very active and that's able to circumvent traditional Media networks and how do you calculate how much coverage to give them because it was just in a dental jumper with a look last time we over to the Conservatives and the election in the number of councils, but the coverage is heavily with Ford Focus it's also about novelty excitement and also how political leaders in Westminster responding.

It's on the Sciences and hard and a frankly it is striking even the Liberal Democrats in very happy some time to sort of remain and their shells the retreating just happy focus on the 72 seats rather than going out with the next prime minister.

Bombastic and is attractive that's all it's not least the cost of a different things about Keir Hardie turning in his grave and make a shaman and show me pictures of gravely votes, so it's only love all things but you can see in Westminster all the Bristol weather.

Nigel Farage thank you very much indeed a very interesting conversation.

We would love to continue but unfortunately our time is up.

Thank you very much indeed to Anna political at the Financial Times to James Heelys with in the media show studio deputy political editor at The Spectator magazine and also to a colleague Bailey who's the BBC chief advisor in the deputy director of BBC editorial policy, but that is it for today.

Thank you so much for all of your company.

We're gonna be back next week with guests including Jo Coburn from the Daily Politics show he's moving onto pastures new but that's it from us.

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