Read this: Piers Morgan, the impact of the Supreme Court ruling on sex and gender for the media

Play music Radio podcasts by Ros Atkins hello and welcome this week on the programme will talk about the Supreme Court ruling that a woman is fine by biological sex under equalities law explore what impact this may have on reporting guidelines and if it'll change working environments inside the media and channel.

What is looking for a new CEO after it was announced Alex Mahan will step down will assess the challenges that will await her successor, but we are going to start by talking about a new review that the BBC is pub on workplace culture and Katie you and I were both watching when the BBC spoke about this and release this report first of all why is the BBC doing this now? Well, it was commissioned by the board the BBC board after Hugh Edwards the disgrace News at Ten presenter pleaded guilty to possessing indecent images of children.

I think it's fair to say the BBC as a whole was from that whole experience of what happens and the board at that point commission review and reporting part.

Look so the behaviour of powerful and within this Media organisation that looks like a lot of other areas to or would you pick out as being the most significant? Well, I guess the BBC that you would like me to pick out and fair enough the

What they find is the BBC doesn't have a toxic culture but of course what we're all also looking at is that they say there is still a minority of people on and offer who behave onyx and his behaviour is not addressed and that affect staff and freelancers so I thought this striking as I was reading through that report ahead of trying to report on it as fast as I could that 30% of freelance work for the BBC said they witnessed inappropriate behaviour.

I think it's interesting on how what's a loud and what's overlooked as shifted over time because clearly in there was a time when I've worked in newsrooms where you're everything was always put down too well.

It's the pressure of the environment.

We working in this high pressure environment everyone get stressed and therefore Temples of Fred and that's true, but Tim Davie to be saying it's absolutely not an excuse for bad behaviour and the inner report they talk about things like grey as it's very clear.

What's a you know we know what bad behaviour of the most drastic kind.

Sexual harassment at work or physical assault obviously, but there's his grey areas where they're talking about things like people getting taxi or I rolling in meeting as all you know closing down ridiculing who how do they please start talking about you know training more managers managers in in in all of there's nothing in the bar and it all bit being everybody's responsibility to step up and say this is too much but I guess we'll have to wait and see what the people feel in Bolton to do that and it was also striking that the BBC was saying not only did it want to improve its own workplace culture that it wanted to offer guidance or be a leader in this area more broadly.

Let's let's get into that as well now with a couple of guys who are in the Studio with us.

Rather me know.

When is the media editor at the Sunday Times and Piers Morgan as well, please? How would I describe these days?

That is very excited by the way, I think we're done that such a self releasing report which decided none of you were to be accountable and actually the only thing already married to somebody raise that eyebrow and a meeting but I think that is entirely accurate summary of what the BBC said at various points at the executives on the stage were very pointed in their concerns about certain aspects of the Seas workplace culture and what was your assessment of why the BBC has done this and also what has had to say homework in person? I always opposing this was done by an outside company.

So it isn't exactly so BBC keeps me very busy as media to the Sunday Times

Has kept me very busy and also my time Tim Westwood Russell Brand New Edwards Gregg Wallace all of which have varying degrees of you know you see there and clearly there's a role here also talked about external company CBBC brings on to work with them.

So that is possible.

I think that is the broader picture across the TV industry.

This is not unique to BBC certain issues that talking to staff here come up over and over and over again and that is in the report which is about bullies being rewarded and starting that's always the words that people say they say all that person and you know they're too big to to be dealt with Anna course.

This is the first sort of respect at work work because we have one in 2013 after the Jimmy Savile scandal, and I would ask how much has changed since then some things not enough.

This is you.

Does behaving in ways that are completely outside of modern organisation with won't tolerate it was interested in the BBC put out the support.

It said no one is here replaceable they kept emphasising this you are a powerful figure in the media you lots of people who are powerful in the media and the word inside big Media organisations.

How do organisations go about making sure that people who are the big stars of our organisation don't have the only way to behave in an acceptable way many many decades you guys collectively the BBC and tried the tabloid editors through the mincer for never knowing everything that was happening in the news in a lot of people at the BBC what did you know that what he wears was up to where were you when it was all happening? He was apparently in a triangle on with half an hour and for what I've read at now when I

Can I get a complete blanket we didn't know anything of which is ironic given the pressure? That's always been put on a tabloid editors in in the past and you say that to say I think welcome to the reality which is sometimes stuff can go on in big newsrooms and it's very hard to keep her handle on it at the question becomes.

How do you deal with it when it comes to light and I think one of the problems and you raised here with the Savile investigation is it you have enough lessons to be learnt at the BBC because it looked at the last couple of years of major scandals of erupted which was suggested.

Maybe lessons work that one question me what you do when something comes to life but there's a question that comes before that which is how do you create organisations or workplaces where these things are not allowed to develop or they are called out much earlier than have casing in previous scenarios when you are leading newsrooms weather in your current role, or your previous roles were the things that you saw done that you could say what that was an effective way of keeping big stars.

Within the within the expectations of the organisation people when they behave badly employment Tribunal no a red line has been crossed here and it's early on and we are willing to take us to go and fight this rather than thinking of know that person going to get legal.

It's going to get tricky.

I think I completely agree with that applies specifically to the BBC because there is a lack of willingness to fight actually just about stars.

This is also about other people behind the scenes say that they said that they had witnessed inappropriate behaviour and the elephant in the room for lots of people I suppose inside the BBC about this report with various people raised with me after it came out is that

Of course one of the real change they want to see those minority of people they know who those people are but will those people be rained in by what's happening? This is just this is not only stop I was leaving my job and Good Morning Britain but just believing Meghan Markle something that today you'll be fine for believing it.

So it forgive me if I don't think there's a funny different the BBC for dealing with disability expressing my right to free speech and got basically forcing out the bath the bath pretty high at the BBC to get punished isn't as an aside.

I'm going to stand up for Meghan Markle just really believe I'm not I'm not going I'm not going to say that you can't believe she said Rosamund a let me ask you though.

Is there a tension I'm not saying there is but is there a tension between the desire for a media organisation to be robust curious biggest in how it goes about.

Work and how it handles difficult subject and its desire to be respectful and welcoming place where everyone feels comfortable to to come to work my feelings as you can be robust with toleration for example sexual harassment by those two things are in any way and Conflict I wasn't suggesting they work with in terms of use Newsroom behaviour for example.

Where people are raising their the behaving in ways that certainly a couple of decades ago would have been quite normal completely and first-person about people rolling their eyes.

I mean that's totally normal but that is really fundamental so yes, there is something about that.

You know I think a lot of this behaviour is actually quite the extreme and that we talking about here and that has no.

What about the BBC setting the same standards for itself the insist on a plane to everybody else in the media which she has done for decades.

I love the BBC massive fan of massive consumer for the BBC has taken the massive high moral ground with other people in the media at for decades.

Why not a by the same rigorous standards to your own listen to the chair of the BBC and concluded earlier this week that he was using sharp language with reference to some of the things that happened at the BBC but I feel like I should clarify something I think so petrified with you before Katie and I definitely not spoke to people for the BBC with simply BBC journalist.

Thanks the both of you for the moment Piers we gonna talk to you a little bit later about the expansion of your Piers Morgan censored, Brandon Rosamund Urwin from the Sunday Times your stay with us too, but we are going to turn our attention to the Supreme Court ruling because I'm sure many of you saw earlier in the month at the court ruled that legally.

Women means a biological women the court says that for the Equality Act to be consistent the term women has to me by biological women this really made me for the media inside organisations and in their workplace and in the language that the media users in its reporting and Cosmo and festival, let's let's start with you and let's look at how the media is editorial policies with reference to how they report stories involving transman, and trans women have evolved in recent years because there was a shift in particularly in the 2010s both so who regulates newspapers and the BBC have have sort of advice guide and very clear.

It's not finding guidance for newspapers, but they do give you guidance in terms of how you report trans issues and one of things.

I'm surprised need pressured not make majority of all prejudicial reference to an individual sex or gender identity.

That's it so and BBC

Hello guys, and Anna has received this because some families campaigners as accepting.

What's called self-id, so the right of a person to say that so obviously with a contentious issue and these things have caused some confirmation internally and problems to pick up on that point.

Is it fair to say that most of the biggest news organisations in the UK shifted what we might call a form of editorial self-id and that their reporting took the lead on what language should be used from how an individual chose to identify one of the difficult places one of the things that created by the campaigners is it has meant that we have talked about biologically male sex offenders who identify as transgender women and we have called them.

She and then articles and in coverage and that obviously for a lot of women understandably has been a different lino.

Never get it today and in your reporting around this issue.

How do we explain the shift that occurred in the 2010s? What was the motivation for a big news organisations to move how they're editorial policy approach these issues part of it, so more was a very another lobby, and I will be in charity.

So it's not just look great, but they have had a very powerful influence on issues like this and you know I've had I've had emails from the from groups like that asking to come in and talk to unusual about report well on things so I think that is part of it.

I think there are other things might my big when I first read about this and the first time I read about this even as a journalist.

I've changed in the way that reports on this year, so when I look back over the first ever wrote I was the first.

And the reason I become interested in that was because I had noticed that house which was the gender identity clinic for under 18s.

I had noticed that have been sober in terms of the number of girls as they work that sells decent people haven't received treatment saying that going round saying that they obviously believe they were transgender and they had always been that there were vast majority of boys and then it switched over in about 2014 perhaps about that time and I thought that's interesting what's happened there, so I looked at the time and I got him I'd interviewed all the stuff then I'm surprising you trust people these are experts.

They're telling you very soon.

So I think I would report to slightly more so yeah.

Yeah, you're going to stay with us for the next few minutes on this.

Yes, but I do want to bring in Jane Fahey who's president of the charity transmedia watch for her perspective Jane welcome to the probe.

I'm insulted so sorry is President not as good as chair.

I thought president sounds better than chair, but maybe I'm wrong anyway apologies for getting that wrong images talking there with Rosamund about the shift as she sees it in the 2010s in terms of how the media reported the issue.

I wonder whether you notice that shift.

I couldn't put my finger on exactly when I mean certainly it took place as it it was one thing then by about 20 and it was something else and past research on a broadcast send many hours in British Library looking for old copies of the phone number of the news at work.

Have a couple of things.

I think what happened in those first few minutes.

Is that before 2000 trans was very much? I'll sort of a Freakshow piece of coverage or a little bit seaside postcard headlines about because with knickers in their pantry and stuff like that very bad puns about teachers you come out.

We were packed then.

There's a sensor taking people seriously and I think a large part of this, please.

Get me onto the tax stop because the years the trans community will try and blow the whistle on Tavistock and nobody was listening and yet when somebody non-transitory scandal when he comes to the address people mostly.

Just respect individual.

So yes you've picked on the outlier case there of somebody was a sex offender and I think that's very difficult place but in many millions.

Is it is just respect I have seen some of the guys coming out I think from court but this does not impact on misgendering because if I go into a conversation with somebody and they set out deliberately to this gentleman bear in mind if any facility language you can easily not.

Torrent conversation drop in their maiden name for a married woman or man basically.

It's a matter of common courtesy most cases does about politeness and respect as you see it, do you think that in terms of how the media has reported people who are trans.

Do you think there's a need for a media organisation to report the detail that someone is trans when they are reporting on a particular story they almost always have they have tended almost always impress even when you have somebody who is trans and has been murdered you instantly get good name and you get the fat and you get in there.

So but is that wrong for the media?

Yes, I'm off the back of the court ruling I was dealing in the last 7 days with a young trans woman whose partner has just been murdered.

I can't say no to pronounce but outside a pub and she's dead and reporting on shows the family that person but he who you sleep well, and I used to be called you know was killed and good luck to you, but honestly you don't deserve any respect that if you want to be disrespectful to a dead trans person you deserve zero respect yourself Jane thank you so much chair of the charity transmedia watch.

Thank you very much for coming on the programme will on next guest on this issue was Hannah Barnes is an author and journalist she used to work at the BBC is now at the New Statesman and Hannah reported.

Early on the child gender identity clinic the Tavistock clinic which we've had several references to at the moment.

She's also written the book time to think the Inside Story of the collapse of the Tavistock gender service for children and thank you for joining the song the media show what are your memories of reporting stories involving transman, and trans women during the 2010s? I'm not as many as resonance because my reporting was quite restricted.

I guess too.

What was going on the care provided to gender questioning children.

I think the first time that I reported on it in the 2010s was at Newsnight in 2018 and your co-host Casey produced a film for I was editing for addition of which was looking at the proposals to introduce self-identification and I'm so and actually was one of the rare occasions, where we

Get people who had different views transman and trans women are women so I think why I totally agree with Jane has just said about being polite and respectful.

I think the key job that we have as journalists above all is of course those two things body's to be accurate and to be understandable to our consuming public and I think all occasion when we get confused with language.

That is just impossible and did you feel as a BBC journalist that there was a tension between the BBC's editorial policy on this issue and your ability to be accurate.

Well one of the joys of Newsnight which is that we were given remarkable editorial freedom separate two kind of the news Gathering machine.

Well, there was a star.

God.

I wasn't totally wear but I certainly did Karen and myself and we started out on the store.

We wouldn't use the language of assigned at birth which many BBC colleagues were at that time and I I see that that is no longer the guidance and factors suggested you don't use that because I'm Frank babies sexist observed at birth.

I've had two children and we know what sex babies are from about 8-weeks pregnant.

So it's just inaccurate and and most people know what you meant so I didn't feel that was a huge Complex in terms of language certainly where we did find a complex cyst on the word for the BBC was reporting should sit because our reporting was about the care provided by the NHS to a group of distressed children.

It wasn't about identity so we really

Not to sit under this LGBT banner, because it wasn't about that.

It was a straightforward health story and so it's come to pass a health scandal that took place the language of LGBT made it really difficult with a little bit patient and I think that's where the BBC Weather wrong and Hannah's you'll be aware.

There are some people who believe that the Bee Gees editorial policy which states the ambition to describe people wherever possible as they would choose to be described was going outside of BBC impartiality that it was taking a position on one side in an argument that wasn't settle did you do you agree with that critique? Yes, and I also think it comes up against one of the core principles of the BBC has been I mean the BBC has reported on these kind of crimes which projector a one-off there are quite a few biological males have committed crimes and then identified as female but

BBC online pieces not even mention that this person is not with it were accurate handlebars.

Thank you very much indeed.

I should say we asked for a representative of the BBC to take part in today's program it declined to provide a guess, but it's send a statement which reads BBC News will consider any updates that might be needed to our style died as a result of the supreme court ruling and the subsequent ehrc updated guidance we always aim to deal with this fairly and impartially we can though I'm delighted to say speak to BBC legal and home affairs correspondent Dominic casciani about the legal implications of this ruling for the media unless there be any doubt she is here as well for BBC News not as a spokesperson for the BBC obviously hello Dominic it's great to have you here.

Do you think this ruling does oblige Media organisations to change?

Report stories involving transman and transwoman well, I mean like we've been wrestling with this since since ruling came out.

It is true that the guidelines are handed down from the top of the moment switch which is actually say when you're interviewing somebody who is who is transgender describing by the pronoun that they use in their daily life and life that is because of the policy is common courtesy, I think what's happening to sleep wrinkles on the legal side is while and whilst giving this very clear mission in relation to a woman is defined by biological sex and the case of the purpose of the UK's equality laws, it has not Delve into the very very tricky about pronouns and dignity and privacy issues around that an office has pointed out the whole issue accuracy what I can say is that I think there's an interesting analogy what goes on in the car.

That was my legal hat on this is enormous home called the equal treatment bench book which ones to about 350 pages to give judges for guidance about how to treat people fairly and equally in all situations and caused a whole section on Transit makes clear in there as well be innocent if things that somebody is having his horse neigh genuinely there is generally a good reason not to use their preferred pronoun that stayed I actually should go with a pronoun which which corresponds with their biological sex an example that would be fantastic if you had a man who is accused of rape and is presenting himself as a trans woman as a means to trying to get the sympathy of the court a judge would be probably yeah within their rights in that context a working now.

I'm going to call you and media.

Obviously would pick that up and would would reflect that.

Ask you about slightly different case but ready for listeners might well remember it which related to the Today programme presenter Justin Webb because the BBC last year upheld complaint against him after he said trans women in other words meals when he was discussing New International chess federation guidelines about whether being biologically male could give play an advantage in the game.

Do you think the BBC would find against him if he said the same thing now after this ruling from the Supreme Court the context is everything ok? It's t on something like this presenter went and said something along the lines of trans women who has Green court has ruled are biologically meant to the purposes of the application.

It would be difficult for somebody to actually I think the issue here is about context listen to the you then ask yourself.

Why would somebody on their website by using lamb.

Which is pointing out the relevance of somebody's identity in this is exceptionally relevant directly relevant to the story that brings into I think some context issues around potential trolling harassment in the sense and the Supreme Court has made very very clear that although.

It's made this ruling about the biological nature of sex in relation to designing men and women is it also said that trans people have very very clear protections from discrimination because of gender and gender reassignment just giving example.

You could have somebody who is a freelance contributor the documentary documentary maker something like that.

Who is trams.

They go for a contract land a job with the BBC all the weather and they're saying that we want you to make this film but only on condition that you used to pronouns that we say you should use now you can see in that context.

Hang on a second the supreme court is protected against that kind of discrimination on gender reassignment so I think there's some practical issues there behind the scenes in the media industry, which I think program makes me have to wrestle it even if the forward facing guidelines do change to reflect on the Supreme Court has said thank you so much Dominic casciani for coming on the program and Rosamund Urwin from the Sunday Times started this item talking to you listening to all of our guests.

Do you think news organisations the big news organisations in the country are considering reviewing their editorial policies in light of this ruler? Yeah? I'm sure I'm sure it's been looked at one thing.

We haven't talked about is that there is no subject that provokes theatre in journalist more than writing about this.

He spoke to a new game on today and they said to me that there's been no subject.

They had so many journalist refuse to write on and I think one of the chances that created and that's reported so battle stars reporters in theory.

I think one of the challenges that crease in newsrooms is they've left a vacuum and that's been filled by economists who are the opinions of the place.

I used to be one.

They are important bit of journalism, but that's what we haven't had is the reggae that you should have had applied to this subject to the Supreme Court to tell it what a woman is Keir starmer say the other day and finally we got clarity about what a woman is a woman has always been a biological a man is a biological male.

I would like to see trans people get the same rights to fairness equality and safety that I have and we all have that does not mean that in that I'm painting the last few years you erode all public discourse which is generally based and it doesn't mean that you can have biological men competing in women's sports or invading women's.

Let's keep this to how the rolling impact the media until very recently you were working for Rupert Murdoch's and my big corporate entity big me and die within that did you feel that that organisation with all of it high-profile output from the sun to the time to talk TV which were part of did it get it right on this everyone's been a bit if I'm on it, but I think the bottom line is the only clarity we got from supreme court is the clarity that should have been still right at the start of this debate trans people should absolutely have the same right, but they want the campaign has led us to is a place of utter insanity where the torturers language which the BBC now have to think it had it I'm not asking about the baby where you work.

I'm interested to know whether you think the insanity.

What's your describe English you don't just direct at the BBC actually was a failing across music.

The BBC Leeds the way actually in things like policing language in this country and there's a big fan of the BBC but I do think even now the BBC won't come on it's own Media so do you say what it really thinks about this ruling even now? You're nearly exploded.

I thought that very skilfully but even now the language that he said just people may have to use like just web to get away from the woman is a biological female it is preposterous some point someone that BBC has to go enough of this nonsense and we will reiterate that we invited the BBC to take part in this program.

Morgan we got you on a course to talk about your Piers Morgan uncensored in January you bought out your YouTube channel from stepping away from News UK why did you make that move out of the conversation? I've been listening to is one of the reasons why I wanted to go out on my own I do.

Too many Media entities globally have done themselves into really awkward places with what the public the perceived to be questions of common sense so party was the freedom to say what I really believe things you know if you went into the BBC Newsround off every single person on camera.

What is a woman it would be a fascinating exercise of torturer's responses that is a madness in a country like Britain supposed to be a democratic society where common sense is the bedrock of what we exist on so I just decided and I got as you know I got tufted of Good Morning Britain thoroughly enjoyed doing that job.

Got removed for not believing Meghan Markle your listeners can make that decision but I then went to work back through and we didn't talk television it didn't work.

It's just Layla cards on the table of the top on that but the same time I had a YouTube version of the show running concurrently and we were seems like ganttic viewing figures for that.

Cristiano Ronaldo the footballer 600000 people watching on talk to you by 22 million people what should our YouTube channel bassem Youssef the Arab John Stewart exactly the same 20 million people watch on YouTube I went to the medicine in UK just wasting money on a new network that isn't really working.

I don't think there's much appetite for that died in the UK is not the same as a cable use environment in America I think we should go fully digital but I ever questions did he jump wasn't my decision I went digital because what's the business model and why is YouTube we'll talk about you a lot on this program YouTube The Future but why for you? What's the percent of American television watches now watch television on my Smart TV to the YouTube app in the last election in America for the first time ever more people watched the election night and the coverage on YouTube and watched it on broadcasting cable Donald Trump

Elected again, I think he did all the YouTube Stars in getting over a 70 million people watch for kids my three boys at 3127 none of them watch conventional television oven if live sports are there on mainstream channel watch it otherwise it all YouTube and if you look at the graphs of the power of YouTube there is absolute zero doubt that within two to three years it will be the dominant Media in the world.

Not even earlier is a look at it and this is the future and I'm interested in how you choose your subjects and you would mention a few of them there you go for some really interesting people you gave us and combative subjects as you say it.

How do you choose a driving at all or is it just you wake up in the morning? And thank you fancy that everything towards an American audience.

There's a commercial reason for that.

You make a lot more money from YouTube eyeballs it come from America that anyone else in.

I spent all the time last 20-years working and living in America chosen.

Have a big audience already built in but I think the key thing for me is one of the big stories with an American or certainly been stood in but the rest of the world the Middle East Australia the UK will also been stood in a lot of it right now.

We know America centric anyway because of trump and so on but we do that very calculating keeping that I tried to do is rather than going down one of the left or right partisan holes, which are a lot of people are in the YouTube space right wing commentators on the left wing building business is very good business is a partisan approach.

I like to be more of a ringmaster to be with all voices.

I bring up with you and these rail and as always been a classic example will be huge audiences for many many months am I bringing people from the Palestinian side from Israeli side and after having them.

Just have a passionate argument on it and it was very compelling because there are many places actually out there that do that which allows.

Completely unfettered uncensored voices and I think that's what young people in particular 75% of my old is on the 45.

That's what they want you making money.

I am making money already and you're making money from pre-roll advertising on YouTube you can do the Maths but we also now do the Host reading adverts which I have an American firm do for me when I read out adverts I have a personal but I only do adverts things that I think of answer me to personally indoors and lots of other ways that you can commercialised there a big business in America build around YouTube star who also do big live shows they do global tools.

They do book documentaries.

There are so many different strands that can span of a YouTube mothership if you like all I want to do with our senses is bringing other people under me you can also be uncensored you may or may.

Established from YouTube already and also then going to different genres, so you might have prime uncensored you might have history on sensor sport uncensor politics.

I'll send you seen as a busy market place with the goal hanger podcast been very successful, but still like me something and also leaving the book to one side is right column.

I need to do a TV shows you trade the TV show for YouTube output.

Would you trade a column for sale substack? Would you be open to the substance? Yes, if I met one of the founders of some steak in Los Angeles last week.

We had a good chat.

I'm going to be joining substack imminently yeah, I was doing in your post and the sun I still have a great relationship with them.

The Empire they have a share of my advertising Revenue and they can commercialise existing content until we party company officially for the next four years we have a good relationship and I want to use therefore is to promote my stuff as well as appropriate and suitable to do it going to be cold probably busy you can literally everything you can actually in my case.

They said if you all you do is pick up your phone three times a week and just give with no make-up uncensored.

Just give your take on something by the way that would be hugely popular and people and making tons of money and why was interesting as listening to be with Tina Brown the Legendary magazine who is saying that already off her new substance.

She's making more money than she said she would make as a columnist for you.

Go I can't let you go and ask me about Donald Trump because he's somebody you've known for a long time.

We talk about America earlier, but you I think you still had contact with her.

Kind of conversations, are you having with an ABI president in the diary few weeks ago and I said that the middle the history of which is always surrounds Donald Trump amid the chaos and carnage as people see it.

I do see method to the apparent mad and I could see your scenario by the end of this year were the US economy is purring again where he's done a large number of new trade deals which are more advantageous to America are you going to get on on your Show and also I didn't reply yes replied yet.

Can you said you got to read a read receipt?

The voice sound of my fingers and you say it's not Media it will be media and it comes to how is he does get peace in Ukraine and and God will he get the Nobel Peace Prize to arrange hypotheticals Rose McGowan to the Sunday Times the last word to you.

What do you make the fact that one of the best-known British journalist is at the moment putting all these chips in on YouTube direction of travel there.

You know he's right we can see all the numbers.

It's all very public and yeah, I know I totally understand as a strategy for the Sunday Times Piers Morgan thank you very much.

I was mentioning Tina band.

We should say Tina we are they Katie that we are going to be speaking to Tina Brown next week about a range of things including her decision to substack and in fact.

I'm going to be done in there to say that Piers Morgan you might want to listen cos we've also next week got Chris best the founder of some stag on the progress we go.

And we will find out more about how their business works and how they are fitting into the media ecosystem next week as one of its founders Christmas and Tina Brown but for now here's Rosamund thank you very much indeed and bye bye bye news moves fast that understanding takes time in a world of misinformation and constant updates BBC Radio 4 presenters documentaries that bring you closer to the heart of the story and go beyond the headlines from undiscovered and hidden stories to the biggest issues.

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