Read this: Pentagon leaks, reporting on the death of the Pope, Genius Game

Play music Radio podcasts by Ros Atkins hi and welcome on the show this week.

We're going to hear from goldhanger.

It's behind some of the more popular podcast the rest is history the rest of politics the rest of entertainment and others to its co-founder Tony past or is with us to talk about advertising and my podcast not just do it.

Cable around the world are targeting an even bigger piece of the action to get the latest on the repeat leaks at the Pentagon and unpick the history and culture of leak in the media in the US and wider and there's a new game show coming to ITV it's based on a format from South Korea presented by David Tennant and cold genius game we're going to speak to it's produce about what makes a successful game show format to start with the biggest global Media story of the week the death of Pope Francis world leaders including Donald Trump and Obama and volodymyr zelensky have confirmed.

They will attend his funeral on Saturday which will be televised and live-streamed by major networks and reported by monster those tomkinson Italy correspondent the Times Who's joining us from the Vatican press office welcome Tom hi there.

Just tell us first year in the Vatican press office as they said what happens there.

What why are you in?

Well, this is a could sort of retreat just yards away from here and there are thousands of people curing up to get in to see Pope Francis he's lying in state inside.

It's hot out there as well here inside it's not better because there was something like 2000 German requested temporary accreditation hair to cover the funeral and underlying state so I had to buy myself a quiet area now come on line with you and and and you know keep away from the Madding Crowd that's out there and all their press officers in there briefing you is that where you get access to news line? Is that all electronic? So you you can get that wherever a lot of it is electronic it comes in the form of bulletin from however.

We will also get.

Later on today the Vatican press officer will come in and grab a microphone and we all surround him.

He'll tell us for example today.

He's going to tell what happened at the Cardinals meeting which daily meetings now all the way up to the the conclave where Cardinals will do for the housekeeping figure out of pizzas ticking over in the absence of the Pope and then as a concave approaches will start talking about what I hope.

They want to elect and we may get some details from the press officer when this evening and can you give us any insights planning to that Vatican press machine? Is it easy to get access to use the messaging me tightly controlled.

Primark I mean we talking about one guy very nice person that are really is the press Secretary and really officially everything comes through him so we're talking about a country effectively the Vatican is a state with one press officer handling hundreds of journalist, so it's quite sometimes.

It's quite hard to get in touch with him out of him, but yes he's the bottleneck hi Tom it's Ross here in the Studio with Katie it's interesting to hear you talk about how your primary point of contact is is one person but I wonder if it's possible to also cultivate sources within the Vatican as you might do in other places where your reporting.

Yes absolutely it involves lunch at the moment and you will get access through the press office in York

In itself, talk to beresfords departments, but a lot of this is done through sources and it's got a tricky business.

You gotta know your way around and sometimes it helps to be a Catholic and yeah.

Nope inside the wall.

What about Pope Francis himself? How do you think you and other journalists who have covered him will remember his interactions with the media or he started off.

I think my being quite suspicious of journalists.

He had a big thing about gossip and he tended to to suspect journalists of being Gossops relationship warmed over the year.

He was initially hostile over reporting of cover-ups of sexual abuse in the church, but it got

Where he admitted that they were things that have been uncovered by the present.

He didn't know about and he was very grateful to know about so I think that was a big Tipping Point for him.

Just to come to the Anton this before we let you go you mentioned the conclave that's that meeting of Cardinals to decide on the next Pope how are you preparing for you covered one before what what precedes the conclave are what's called the general congregation which is where the ricardos get together and they say one will make a speech about what kind of church she wants to see and it's it's a sort of way for Cardinals to views and then they go and have a coffee and gossip and talk about who they they don't want as the next HOPE and you do tend to get information coming out that sometimes official some time on a pixel that can.

How to get my idea of of the friends of the voting patterns of what people want to see out of the next the next one test then everything goes Dudley quiet as they get into the system chat they have their mobile phones take away from them there lots of jamming devices around and we don't know anything until we see that smoking and find out who the next hope it's going to be looking out for that white smoke not just you time, but you will be there at 2 covered.

I'm short Italy correspondent for the time.

Thank you very much for coming on the programme Tom Kington yes, thanks to Tom now.

The talk about something different entertainment television and as any other Sue consume entertainment television know very well one of the key components of how much we enjoy it are the format themselves either brand new format for UK or formats the baps have been adopted or adapted from Elsewhere and you can get formats right then you are well on the way to having big hits on your hands with how it's done from one of.

The business tomorrow builders here in the middle show Studio with me and Katie hire tomorrow.

Hello, you are executive producer of long-running series pointless and Richard husband's osman's house of games you're also Joy Division director at remarkable entertainment which has a new game show coming on ITV and we'll talk about the new game show in a minute, but in Broad terms if you was a sit down with colleagues and think we need to come up with a new format here.

How what's your process to watch or is it from to play so sometimes that somebody could come up with them so for example on Richard osman's house of games.

We have I think over 100 mini games now so we all sat around and we was quite unique with house against is that sometimes it's Development Team that do it actually the questions to my house again to come up with them and we sit down and we play all of these games someone will come with an idea and we played.

And sometimes you can have such a great time playing it and someone else will come in and just sit there and go well.

I can't play along and it's not involving and you know you're having a great time but I'm not ok about time in the office to prioritise game playing so much of my working life is doing that's what we do.

We make sure especially in the game world.

What's fun? What's interesting? What's the take-home? What are you enjoying? You have to play we spent hours and hours play I suppose you've got the primary format and then there were four months in the game itself has its own structure and approach and maybe some shows that we hope might be a bigger show on quite right, but I'm quite good games game is what I would say sometimes interesting last thing is lost, but there will be times.

I imagine when a big network or a strimmer put sound to lots of people.

Making entertainment formats we're in the market for this type of format and you with colleagues it down and go to come up with something here or do you have a more structured approach idea that we would already be on the front foot is quite rare that somebody would say we're looking for this specifically would already be developing it.

We're looking at trends in what what what is wear and we would be in there and we will be saying we've got this amazing.

So it's quite rare sometimes tenders that you'll be working from specifically but we are already there at the door and has house of games compare making pointless.

Could you say what this show require this format requires this process that requires this I mean I think that you can look at how to games and it's very show you and James new you're writing in Limerick you're coming up this music thing pointless is its own skill but oh my god.

It's such a skill for I think it's 16 years on so it's been on it still to be free.

An exciting but you're still coming but millions of people coming to us at 5:15 that that is the skin in the question writing it's not a tide format in fact every show I watch of it is brilliant.

This is so good.

Sorry.

I did you know it would last for 16 years at the beginning and you tell her to say I wasn't at the beginning of young.

She looks wasn't called she wasn't there a new 9 years in but it's been lovely is that since Richard step down from co-hosting the day.

We had guest house in which again is given at least of life, but you're here as well to talk about your new game is called genius game.

It's coming to ITV is hosted by none other than David Tennant his finest some would say let's hear a collect before we talk about it.

Every single one of them brilliant competitive and practical which means you must be too.

You're gonna need to work with each other to be successful in the game but ultimately you will win let me go David Tennant genius game which Eva dancer from a hit South Korean format how would you describe the show when we first pitched it into ITV we said it's a reality show the clever people that was on top line and it is so much more than that we've got a cast like I don't think you've ever seen on a reality show before but it's very much reality show and we got what you mean by that.

It's a reality show it's got hot you're watching it.

It's a clever show and there are people doing very clever games but you can choose to play along with that side of it or you can just watch the show for what it is, which is you know.

Falling out people trying to do these games it it's a Sunderland reality show which happens to be clever clever different forms of cleverness and was that the South Korean format or however you adapted it.

Do you know what I was quite a faithful adaptation outside the way we films as well the Dutch the reason that we do in the first place is that side of development saw that they making a Dutch version of it and actually what was very useful for us with the Dutch version actually was filmed in a different way.

It wasn't film the Misfits big style show and that's where you get all of the juicy bits from the show is when people go off into a corner and they discuss how they going to play the game about the game.

It's about or playing those individual bits of the game.

It's about how people interact with each other also quite familiar like traitors.

Maybe do you know what it's nothing like Tracy is everyone who likes traitors want to watch this show that would be great.

I'm very happy traitors if it get.

It's not like traitors, but all over betrayal and backstabbing in it, but it's within the game so actually there are some reality shows where it's open to a challenge the games are the reality the moment they step into to the South Koreans what do you call that if it was a big brother house? What do you call the house and which is the game and that really helped us with our development but as soon as you step into our space.

You're in the game then everything that happens and they sort the tagline to show his beautiful defeats and ugly and it's all about the day comes from the gameplay and having watched it lucky me.

I got early early viewing.

It's quite.

Do you ever worry that things are too complicated all that doesn't matter what I hope we done is hold your hand enough on the reality side.

So actually we have with my

206 and a kid who is an amazing games exactly came from squeaking the challenge, but they're not other exactly Lynn is from married at first sight and it's a hand holding of those two worlds blend it actually if you do that again too complicated.

Hopefully you can still enjoy the emotional reactions that come from it and in terms of those complexities and a journalistic context.

I'm sure Katie and I have both done this time.

So you make a report and then you watch it back and you ask yourself have a sufficiently explain whatever it is.

I'm explaining and you might review what you're doing accordingly.

Would you have when you're trying to explain games to viewers? Would you watch it back and think I can move over it's playing there or actually that people could get lost something people who understands rules don't need rules and people don't understand will never understand them so that the rules of death of people who want to play long and if you just want to watch and enjoy the show and Y three people going to cry halfway through you just do that.

But if someone who doesn't follow every detail of the rules that's not going to stop them in your view and again, so we can explain something everyone looks black.

Can you go what's the first class meaning of it's a bit like that if you don't get it when you watch it, but also the people that we've cost of genius game as so brilliant that they you watch it and you go you think I do it like oh my god.

I never would have done it like that.

Oh my word and that's why they rock and fall and just finally you mentioned earlier that you're constantly monitoring trends, and I appreciate your saying that genius game.

Is there any right but at the moment we have some very Big Show's traitors is the most obvious example there are others to can you see trends at the moment for entertainment formats game formats in which is foods when you talk back with an game linear is fine linear quiz and game love linear.

You know where you are without you know that you're going to watch.

10.4 you're going to watch pointless at 5:15.

I'm going to watch house again at 6.

That's a great what's exciting and interesting about Madonna is where do you go on streaming? And that's what attracts ITV I think to this show it's because obviously it's on ITV acts as well.

This is this is a show that you can binge if you want to and a way that you don't normally with quiz game but there's some I think digital is the other place that we're going to be seeing more and more quitting games well.

I think about the sidemen of doing it is all going content and last one laughing the show with the comedians that say panel show that to get that game a fight and that's been absolutely brilliant for them and very funny and DS game of contents of the week.

We will be using that one.

Thank you so much tomorrow girl that and genius game is available to watch on ITV 1 on Wednesday 30th of April at 9 p.m.

And of course she said what?

Thank you very much as discussed many times on the media Show podcast ing is a major part of the media world and this is only getting bigger and you report shows that in the US advertising revenues for podcast reach 2.4 billion last year in the UK the figure was 80 million, so it's a big market hear a much bigger market there and podcast continue to make their case to potential advertisers well one of the most successful podcast outfits in the UK is gonna hang out which produces shows like the rest is history the rest of policy and the rest is football.

I'm delighted that it's co-founder Tony Pastore joins us now hello Tony you are in for brands interested in launching campaigns On podcast.

So how's the selling going well? It's an event called power of podcasting it was organised by.

UK that was mentioned 83 Million last year in advertising spend in the UK is actually very small if you do you work out what the population of the UK 16th respect for every person in the UK on podcast advertising the same number in the US was $7, so yes, it's a bigger country, but really the disproportionate state of play between the two advertising markets.

Just shows how much are market is and how immature trousers.

I'm afraid it does that mean you'll see us as a huge growth market view I wear for example at the rest of history already does very well in America and it is it is it so it's not easy before as a try but to give you a little bit of data.

So 31% of the rest is history audience with downloaded or watched on YouTube 18 million x 31.

Number was in the US each one of those listeners of you is in the US is worth about 4 times a bread so yeah, I mean if you can't give us.

It is it makes a lot of business sense clearly.

It's not very easy and what is your business plan to conquer the us then if you can share trade secrets.

Yeah, I mean it's because you've done it entirely organically would never promoted in us would never spend any money on marketing.

It's really been a word of mouth across the whole of the English language world so dresses history for example 15% Australia it's managed to break out of the UK but we try to do more recently is to use some you kept us host scaramucci on our Politics show for example David McCloskey on the rest of classified ads buy show with try to establish the idea that our content works.

I decided the Atlantic and 1.

Rose go for it.

I was going to ask just before we went on to other subjects Tony you mentioned that the the US consumers worth so much more so what can you why do you think the UK advertising market is not spending the equivalent of what's happening in the US how to explain that you're not making so much money off each listener in the UK in the UK is very traditional.

It's still between ad agencies and the likes of ITV and global radio which most successful organisations, but I've been around a long time and I think the UK advert it's been a little bit slow to realise that the podcast listenership is really a super engaged or average listening time for example is 41 minutes.

You know and we talked about the session in the UK where people listen and watch content of very short amount of time and actually podcast is very long amount of time but that message hasn't really got through which is why we do today when we speak to.

How's and try to explain to them but you know two-thirds of our audience is on the 43rd you know it's very very attractive audience and yeah, as I say the advertising will hasn't really well something like 18% of brands of ever considered advertising on the podcast.

It's really quite a low number and when we talk about podcasting we used to think only of audio of course now video is huge and getting bigger.

What do they advertised as like that and what's your approach? Been to video so our approach has been to really jump into video with both black last month 48 million people downloaded our content in audio form and 13 million watch on YouTube for the YouTube number was nothing a couple of years ago.

I ran about the year.

We really kicked on with the video and I'm video started to become the fastest growing area in fact in the US YouTube is the biggest platform now 44.

Sing me the podcast petone I understand how YouTube can boost your reach but is it as effective as turning listeners of viewers into revenue for you because after all you're going to have to share whatever revenue with with Google which owns YouTube yeah, well actually that's that's interesting point because you don't always have to be so there's two forms of advertising that goes out on video one is as you watching YouTube concert on you get a little lad served us call dad.

Sent.

It's got a very low CPM very low value and that is served by YouTube and as you say you share that with them but if you burn in a promotional piece of material example and I'll football show a large beer brand is it is all regular-season long sponsor on the rest of football now.

We put that content out on YouTube as well and that means it amplifies value of the whole deal instead of it being an audio audio a video and the social media has no issue with you doing that.

Was it burnt into the content? We keep it and it means that we get at the conversation when no longer knocking on the door in the corridor talking to the podcast salesperson when out walking to the brand partnership person and that amplifies it in normally and Tony I'm always interested in your insights particularly perhaps today when we think about your talk about YouTube why do you think it is that Netflix the other streamers are increasingly interested in moving into podcast maybe it's obvious but do you have a theory and I think it's this concept of time spent on platform so for example if you go to Spotify for music on average you listen to for songs.

It's been 12 minutes there if you come for a podcast you spend between 40 and 45 minutes.

So clearly is coming from much longest period of time you spend longer on the platform Now YouTube has become the fastest growing.

The podcast what does Spotify do Spotify launches video they do not want you leaving Spotify to go and watch the Record football on YouTube what happens next Netflix Netflix thinking in the same way attention when I bring it on to a platform which way YouTube Spotify copying we need to be in that Market Place finally Tony I just got a question about your strategy.

You clearly had this extraordinary run of enormous podcast hits and I'm sure there are a lot of people on the outside knocking on your door wanted to invest or even just as your set up at the moment you could expand at Great pains you recently launched.

The women's football podcast as well as several others recently.

How do you look at the speed at which goldhanger Essex is there a risk that you could go to quickly because of the success you've had.

I don't know if I go to quickly when we only released to podcast last year we spent an awful.

Lot of time was getting them rights.

You know so we now when we first launch the best accessory for example.

We weren't very well not as good as the most recent 22.

We improve that show with reacted and we responded to have the audience appreciated it.

We no longer have guessed that show want them.

We learnt that over time so what we have done with my recent.

Releases is we piloted them for 3-4 months at a time mate.

7824.

We got out because we can no longer experiment on her one of that one that one of the beauty is above position is that we can probably effectively and make sure we get a great audience therefore when we launched a new job, but the downside is it's got to be right straight away.

There's no time now for us to experiment on their fascinating Tony thank you for coming on the media.

Show we appreciate it.

That's Tony bus from goldhanger.

We're going to spend the rest of the programme looking at the issue of leeks to join lists after three senior officials were fired from The Pentagon leaking sensitive information accusations.

They have called baseless their boss was the US defence secretary headset he's been as I'm sure you're aware making headlines of his own.

You may remember he was accused of posting classified information on a group chat to which the editor of the Atlantic accidentally added now is reported to have shared military attack details and another group chat that included his wife his brother and his personal lawyer here's what mistakes have had to say about the story to report outside the white house recently.

This is why were fighting the fake news media.

This is why were fighting slash-and-burn Democrat posters posters posters the petrol anonymous sources from knickers with access to dry and then you put it all together.

News story well, let's talk through what's happening and also learn about the leak culture in Washington DC with the help of David Smith the Guardians Washington DC Bureau chief, David thanks for your time today and let's start at the Beginning why did the Pentagon reportedly instigate an integration into leaking pentagon a massive organisation with a budget of the Australian dollars and 2 million staff and the defence secretary came to the job is almost no government experience and an investigation was launched because of alleged leaks really regarding two major issues one was the pentagons military plans regarding the Panama Canal that Donald Trump has somewhat surprisingly said he won't be us to regain control of and secondly a meeting.

Where is Elon Musk goes to the billionaire?

I've trump was going to go to the Pentagon and reportedly get access to secret plans for us ever go to war with China apparently even for trump.

That was A Bridge Too Far and in the end of there was some kind of meeting but not discussing as military plans and this all of this leads to the media and therefore does a pentagon navigation resulting in the senior officials being being fired for that level of leaking to a car on a story.

I think it has happened to be in the past with the Pentagon and other institutions Eminem the moment in the US where I would say it's probably actually slightly left leaking from the White House itself right now so it compared to Trump's first term where there was a constant barrage and I know it.

That time in day and night would go by without some Victorian the New York Times the Washington Post that have been leaked the White House itself is actually a title ship these days of Siouxsie Wiles but clearly the Pentagon is a very different story and we just here but it's chaos.

It's disarray, even though the top spokesperson.

Who did the Pentagon is currently in meltdown, so that's really weather leaks are right now and you want suspected.

There's more to come as reports of the shouting matches and control but never left he still commands the support of the Donald Trump and the the make America great again babe and can we talk about there being a leaking culture in Washington a killer way that leaks are part of the relationship between the media and those working for the government or those serving in the government the lifeblood of washing.

John listen for decades and most famous deepthroat Watergate and the Secret meetings in car parks and so on a bit of the Guardian just have a decade ago.

Cos we have the the Edward Snowden story of weeks of national Security secrets and Washington is often the illusion of transparency where the white house and the state department of the Pentagon all hold these regular press briefings and that's an audible in many respects different from my country life.

I've worked in but it only goes so far because you do the job of those press secretaries to stay as little as possible and make a little news as possible and real stories are behind the scenes with the leeks with the private briefings with the with the phone calls to the imposing reporters often at the the big us Media organisations.

Over the past 15-years also have been from from leaking David thank you very much and David Smith who's the Washington DC Bureau chief of the Guardian and listening to that with us here in the studio is Peter Cardwell he was a journalist before becoming a political advisor the full Cabinet ministers during the Theresa May administration has written the life of special advisers.

They're the ones and his latest book political animals is published in September and also with us Isabel oakeshott the political journalist and author now international editor for talk.tv who joins us on the line from Dubai welcome.

I'm delighted that you're both here and let's start actually with the question for both of you.

Just a defined these terms.

How do you do finally understand that far? Is it to put some music by unauthorised disclosure of confidential information certainly the Pete hegseth League

New government would ever want because it shows very clearly and my view that he has been very careless with some very sensitive information certainly there likes everyone and politics has an agenda on as long as you realised I haven't realised that all the political journalists have some sort of agenda.

Whether that's to get very good stories or alternatively to be auntie.

Government approved government as soon as you realise that but then you realise you get the stories from and sometimes leaks can be information that is harmful to the government but not necessarily that serious it might just be something that comes out a day or two before the government wants it and it's done exclusive basis and then things in a third and final category that I think you just put into the public to me and that are at perhaps.

Not what your Downing Street would have chosen necessarily, but nonetheless don't do too much damage at all and Isabel oakeshott you.

What does a leak? What is a leak is good news as far as I'm concerned the absolute lifeblood of political journalism and if it weren't.

Essentially political news coverage would just be press releases and party political broadcasts and I think it's a mistake to look at least purely internal document so we certainly love those because you can't often argue with an author.

You know truly authentic inside a document that States could be from the cabinet office could be from the Foreign Office wherever it may come from but plenty of stories come from conversations, which contain verbal leaks, you know every interaction you have a political journalist really is a walk to be about trying to extract information.

That's in the public interest is that illegal or is that just a conversation? That's what I'm interested in it depends what what comes out of the conversation.

We will be very happy if all our conversations contains greatly they will somebody will reveal something that points you too.

Pause that then reveals something wider so I just want people to think about leaks in a rather different way to just documents in brown envelopes though.

I've had a few of those in my time and they've made pretty big you have and we'll come on to that in a minute.

I want to get you you obviously both have experienced this type of journeys and Peter if we take from your time as bad as we look at it from the other side if you like the left side for a start you, how did you use when you're as bad leak culture because presume is pretty high risk delete to a journalist doesn't you might get discovered one thing that I always try to do was flatter and they don't know because do they just love you to do but no one thing that I there was a piece of quite dry when I try to get into the public domain and one occasion.

I came in terms of a what is called dear colleague letter so every my god it have I just giving it to the darkness that would have been quite doll and wouldn't be very exciting.

Obviously, I can't give you this but if there's a friendly MP who might tell you the bank in terms of the contents of this highly sensitive document that would be a good exclusive for you and low and behold that happened exclusive story at this was a big thing in the media the next day and that serve both purposes because I thought you're more than she got exclusive and from my perspective as slightly washing the processed information.

No, I don't think so I went back to remember.

I want to really really bad days of Theresa May brexit at the release coming left right and centre on my spoke to a jealous and very well.

I said like I'm not in any way asking you about sources.

Are there many special advisers in that state 120 special advisers on this very senior journalist on a major paper said there are four special advisers who like nobody else.

How many ok so that is that is not many and what are the rules of the game just if you have to send them are there particular things that you if it was something really sensitive.

Would there be advice you give people do not get caught in fact when I started as a special adviser.

It was actually liberal Democrat special advisor from the collection.

Yeah.

I know quite well.

She brought me and her home and said if you really want to like some what you do if you get a you.

Don't you electronically because of course the electronic is there on that has taught A lot of people have been involving.

I've been the subject of enquiry that sound like that should say but she said get yourself a disposable camera take photos of documents get it developed at Snappy Snaps with nodal trail putting in a brown envelope and send it to a Jealous to be inside of the Isabel oakeshott of speaking Isabel let's let's bring you in I wonder if you are aware that someone is potentially going to give you information potentially Q information.

What are the first few questions you would.

In terms of what you want to know about the content and about them.

It's all coming out now.

Isn't it? No more of the trick question to ask who is what is the agenda of the leaker and everyone is leaking information has an agenda and the question is does that agenda discredit fundamental the information that you're being offered and is the even if they do have an agenda is the information still of real value and can you can you present in the way that reflects the likelihood or the certainty that the person who put it in the public domain with after something.

I'm thinking of a case.

I handle myself very low profile story back in 2019 when I was part of a reporting team.

That was elite a huge cash of diplomatic telegrams and then.

Coming out of the US from the ven UK ambassador to Washington Kim darroch, and basically I suspect that the Delica like him direct and probably wanted him out of his position and they succeeded in that agenda, but that didn't mean that the content of those diplomatic telegrams not sensational in its own right.

I was asking about that story.

I was also going to ask you about the Matt Hancock messages the messages relating to covid which he shared with you as part of the work.

You were doing together on a book you put those in the public domain breaking an agreement you had with him.

Did you consider yourself both the person leaking and the journalist in that situation and some ways what you doing both both roles completely fair characterisation and in the end.

You know I thought about this a lot of the time very happy to carry on talking about it because

I think that it was an extremely important release of information.

Obviously that was quite difficult for me personally.

I knew that I would take a lot of criticism for breaking confidentiality agreement and showing off.

I did and it was a pretty rough ride.

I expected that and that was a price that I felt I was happy to pay because of the overwhelming excellent public interest in that case and make no mistakes the release of those WhatsApps 100000 messages from inside the heart of government during the pandemic changed our understanding how it was managed by the buses, but you'll be aware that the decision you took in still passionately contested, but I wonder more broadly since you took their decision often when I have something to leak.

They're looking for a journalist.

They can trust did that high-profile decision around Matt Hancock impact people's willingness to share things with you to make pretty regular head.

What I would say to anyone who was wondering whether or not to share information with me.

Is it if it is overwhelmingly in the public interest and all you have to say something truly terrible then.

I'm probably not going to sit on that information and Peace of God will bring you back in in the last minute or so that we've got we were talking about the Pentagon at the start of clearly thinks he can stop these please, but can you and your experience plug a leaky culture once? It's there.

No you can't it shows the the disorganisation.

I think the chaos heart of the trump administration.

Maybe not even the proper ministration.

Maybe just Pete hegseth us office on the people around him and what he has done.

I think if it is true.

I think it is is restless.

I think that sort of people who don't have that level of clearance.

That's something that you absolutely cannot do I went through a vetting process at to get a level of security clearance not the highest security clearance but normal ask.

Level security clearance and certainly there are things I have been told I will never reveal and would never reveal and will be too late appropriate even talk about we're going to have to leave it there Isabel thank you very much and Peter thank you very much indeed.

That's Peter Cardwell former political advisor and author of The Secret Life of special advisers busy have another book coming in September that's right, but Larry yes in the way that I have got a promise.

That's piece of lamb News UK and thank you so much to all our other guests.

Do you please join us next week, when will be talking to Piers Morgan about his plans to expand his uncensored brand onto YouTube but that is it from us for now goodbye, goodbye.

We are living in the middle of what I would call a therapeutic Revolution but it can sometimes be hard to know what really fast do I need to take a testosterone supplement, how can I fix my creaky? Why do I get angry is organic food actually better for me.

We're going to be your guide through the confusion will talk to experts in the field and argue about what we learnt and share what we cloned and maybe we won't WhatsApp box from BBC Radio 4 listen now on BBC sounds.