Read this: Afghan data breach superinjunction, Future of the BBC, Tour de France

I'm at the BBC social media investigations correspondent in my podcast I've been investigating what happened to the daughter of a conspiracy.

Theorist who died projected chemotherapy the new series of Mariana in conspiracy land listen on BBC sounds music Radio podcasts on the razzle and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome this week.

We need to talk about the BBC after a series of crises and controversy interviewing director-general Tim Davie will go through what he told me cycling Legend Chris Boardman will assess how the Tour de France and cycling as a form of transport is covered by the media and then.

Sending shock celebrity infested Waters is on ITV at the moment will hear from the people who made it but that start with a story that's on several front pages today concerning a super injunction.

That is what the press reporting a story is known about for some time the League of the details of nearly 19000 people who replied to move to the UK after the taleban in Afghanistan the leak was by British official in 2022 the previous government learnt of this in August 2023 when details were posted on Facebook multiple Media outlet then affected by a super injunction that prevented them from reporting the story well larisa, Brown defence editor at the Times broke the story for that newspaper Lewis are welcome Media show thank you.

I know this story.

You've known about it for a long time but for the rest of us.

We learnt about it yesterday and if that I was doing Newsnight last night and I was speaking to Lewis Goodall from the news.

Podcast about it because he was one of the people involved.

What brought you to the story will I found out about it in August 2023 as well, so two years ago now.

I was on paternity leave at the time actually a lot about the afghans.

Previously I was just about to publish a book about the afghans called the Garden of Lost and in touch with a lot of the Afghan community and I found out about this data breach.

I was told that a breach affected thousands of afghans and allies could be put at risk and when I returned to leave I called the mod to tell them that I knew about this.

I don't have been made aware that there was a super injunction that been brought in several days after I've found out and I was holding to the mod asked to bring a lawyer which was highly unusual.

I never been asked to do that before and I was taken into this room with a group of mod lawyer.

Serve with the with the injunction and ever since we've not been able to talk about it and just clarify for people listening exactly.

What is a super injunction because we people 901 injunction is moriconium.

Yes, so so the super element of the injunction meant that we couldn't even reveal that an order existed.

So not only could we not publish the facts of the of the incident we also couldn't even tell anyone that there was an injunction in place so in impractical terms this meant to buy if I told my husband about it all my parents will colleagues and I could end up in prison and it was it was pretty worrying in fact even the people that we told in the time that it had to be a really really small and those names have to be provided to the core.

So they knew exactly who in the organisation actually knew about the super injunction and I should probably say this super-injunction was brought in when the concert.

Ben Wallace who was defence secretary he was the first became aware of this leek, and he says he makes no apology for applying for the initial injunction which was for four months and he's not a cover up but designed to protect afghans you could be at risk presumably you understood that point that these people have to be protected, but have you ever had any of this sounds like this in your in your journalistic career and actually applied for an injunction for four months the judge actually upgraded it to a super injunction and ended up being the first time ever that UK government has used a super injunction in the end, and it was also a longest ever running super-injunction, so no I've never dealt with a case like you know of course.

I'd always understood the reason for protecting afghans generally no, I've been fighting for Afghan for years to try and help them come to the UK so of course it.

Safety is always been at the forefront of my mind throughout this entire case was here.

I noticed you talking about how strict is was in terms of who you could tell what was that like having be around friends or family or close colleagues and not being able to tell them about an important part of your working life.

It was really quite stressful to be honest because I was I mean I couldn't even I didn't even tell the news that I wasn't telling you did say yeah, I was having to go to Lowther court hearings and because literally only a couple of one point it just made it all very difficult especially in the last few days.

It's been pretty hard because I've been working an awful.

Lot but unable to really explain why and especially you've given yesterday morning.

You know none of the most of the people that have no idea that midday.

Break this and it actually just made it because quite complicated because normally would have this conference in the morning where you disgust what was going to be on the agenda.

You have a leaders conference discussing what was going to be in our opinion leaders and yet? No nobody could know what we're about to break and so you have the story which very few of your colleagues know about was you taking up a lot of your time and I assume time you and your x colleague Turkish you with the super injunction.

What did you do to challenge it became defendants in January 2024 and what that meant? Is is we could argue for the for the super injunction to be lifted and we had a barrister Jude bunting and he made the case on several grounds.

So he was arguing that was the public interest element so obviously parliament was able to scrutinise a planter to bring.

people here and spend millions of pounds that was obviously really crucial the public didn't know about this with major policy decisions been made over the months, but nobody knew about not even intelligence and security committee was briefed on it and asked you because you were you as you were trying to challenge this why you not worried about the safety of the will involve if you are allowed to overturn this I always thought about their safety and obviously you know this is this is constantly constantly playing on my mind and what I was worried about is there by having this in place this meant but none of the afghans were told to so none of these afghans knew that their data has been breached this list with out there that the Taliban and might have it already and at any point the Taliban could come knocking at their door and kill them and I

The afghans had the right to know so they could take measures in there and we could take protective measures.

They could move house change their phone number if they wanted and I just didn't think that it was a risk worth taking in assuming that the Taliban wouldn't get hold of it and just breathe Larissa is there a president in this as it's sa president for press freedom in the future the government ministers haven't ruled out using a a super injunction again in the future.

I would hope that this is a really unique situation that would would never have to happen again to be honest.

There is a brown defence that is it for the time congratulations on breaking the story and thank you very much for coming on the programme.

Thank you know what to do on this week's Media show is time to talk about the BBC because I guess the question here Katie is where do we start on this in recent weeks 6 door is all playing out.

There was the Ferrari over the glass.

Live streaming the streaming of that punctuate offensive comments anti-semitic comments the Fallout from the BBC not running a documentary about medics in Gaza a report on another commentry about Gaza which the BBC pulled after broadcast big as the father of the boy who narrated it is a Hamas official with three of the stories and then we had two other stories connecting to MasterChef yes, so I've got released by the production company Banerjee which upheld a range of complaints against Gregg Wallace he's already been fired and then the sacking as it's being dealt with John Torode from his role on Masterchef after the investigation upheld that he'd use racist language the TV chef he denies it says he has no recollection of what is accused of his contract hasn't been renewed in the middle of all of those five star days.

There's a big moment for the corporate side of the BBC annual report 264 pages long BBC public report and accounts presented to the culture secretary thumbs up.

Full performance details of the BBC's year and there is a good story for BBC to Thailand many ways I play as a big success.

It's the fastest growing long form video on demand in the UK got a good story on audiences the top 10 shows at Christmas for example although BBC on Christmas day.

There is a generational divide on audiences if you're over 35 top Media brand in the UK the BBC if you're under 35 Surprise Surprise it's YouTube and only 37% of 16 to 34 year olds watch BBC on TV or iPlayer every week 58% 6 years ago and when we saw each other yesterday morning you were going off to read a copy of the annual report which is released to some journalist a little bit in advance of it being made public that point we didn't know that as well yesterday your duties would include speaking to the General Lee not although you should think in organisation that prides itself on accountability and transparency that.

On the day of the annual report be expecting to interview the director-general or someone at the top of the BBC we didn't get an interview last year was the Strictly Come Dancing allegations.

Well this year.

We weren't sure we will get one and the press conference but it was not on camera or at least it was on zoom so you had to put questions in for a Q&A and we didn't have any clips from it and then I was told an hour before the interview happened that it might happen and then the John Torode decision dropped and I was told I had 10 minutes of the director-general out 515 quite tight for the 6:00 news, but you've got course take it whatever you can you definitely did record the interview when I'm going to play all 10 minutes of it, but let's hear a little of the exchange that you haven't Tim Davie how much of a lot of trust from licence fee payers.

Do you think is Gazza documentary Gregg Wallace John now all of these candles have cost the BBC in my experience.

How many years of the BBC I think there's a number of things you one is I would you say trust.

News groove last year despite all the challenges now.

I'm not minimising the damage which is serious and substantive when you make mistakes to this nature what I would say is the public and everyone out there sees the BBC going out these things transparently being very clear about mistakes apologising not covering up anything that I think is the route when you've made mistakes, then we are not perfect.

We're broadcasting thousands of hours of news out the critical things how you act.

You at honourably.

Are you fair and are you clear and you champion institutions values that I think is how to manage a situation of this.

I wish you were here.

I wish we had made mistakes, but I think how we manage them and how we lead our way through them is absolutely how we will trust well how the BBC managers.

It's mistakes as of course.

Important Katie but I guess there's a second point which is that it mistakes keep happening for whatever reason that in the end draws Focus towards the most senior leaders and the BBC yes absolutely and that's why it's important for them to come out and say what they put the put their responses out there as soon as to why it happened and what they're doing about it what you're missing a Q&A that you did earlier in the day with the BBC you took part in that sort of Daniel Thomas global Media editor at the Financial Times and Daniel you're here with us in the studio.

I just wonder what you made of how the BBC went about address the multiple different questions.

It was racing yesterday as mum Casey as on the cold.

It is quite static Q&A session and was remarkable it's almost all the questions sun in the first half before they they closing down all about Tim Davies future.

They're all asking the same question do not feel your job's under pressure is the board you'll never satisfied with the job you doing do you not think?

The BBC's been damaged by the reactions not just of the BBC for the management and they have the measurements been approaching his problems and so you know I would say front of you put on a bullish and a very short of Frankfurt and very proactive saw the message and he tried to I think say we've done apologising.

We have you know where we are the steps in the states have made and now we want to move onto the next step and part of the next step is what's within the annual report and there's a big document so you could pick any number of things but what you were the main aspects of it that I listened as should bear in mind that the on the BBC at the moment and Incredibly important for people within the BBC app and also become the government you know the numbers of a good the revenues are going up the deficit as hard more less the the trusts in the BBC

Prove overall we can talk about whether or not the trust in certain Communities has diminished.

I think there is a problem a real problem there right, but overall the trust has gone up.

So there is a really positive sorry for the BBC to tell and it's never been more important because I don't know what I'm sure.

We'll come to this but that the BBC's about to start negotiations for its 2027 charter a crucial period write the next 10 years.

It's going to dictate the show the BBC huge existential problems at the moment and that's really what the BBC needs to now focus on the move away from perhaps the the internal problem as long as it's looking internally and externally in the annual report was overshadowed by several controversies Monday so the release of not one, but two reviews one into the making of The Documentary Gaza how to survive a war zone and another into the conduct of MasterChef presenter former MasterChef presenter now Gregg Wallace Roger Mosey format editorial director at the BBC News also joining us Roger welcome.

Let's start with the review into Gaza how to survive a war zone have the findings.

Do you think provide definitive answers and Justified the 5 months it took for us to get them we could all and I think you did on the media show get to the answer some weeks ago, which was the BBC shouldn't have had a child narrator in a program.

It should have found out that the child was related to what we probably already knew I think what is helpfully say there wasn't Avicii impartiality so the problem could have been broadcasted there been more transparent and accurate about it.

I think it's sort of you say that the BBC didn't really explain it sell for many weeks and the director of news, then you finally appeared on the world at 1 on Monday I think he wants to be a counter.

It's got to engage more in its journalism as it goes along and that it has generally fail to do the program that people might be aware because there are two Gaza documentaries is a programme called Gaza doctor.

Tack which the BBC said it was looking for a way to broadcast and then it pulled it.

Why do you think it made that decision? I think well, I guess I'm asking you a different question apologies.

There was a program that it pulled this program.

It's now saying to go down to the by the warzone.

It is now saying it wants to try and find a way to broadcast on like that one it wants to broadcast bits of this one some of the stories of the children's stories.

Yes, I am personally not that convinced about the reasons for not running the program the one about the doctor's which did Run on Channel 4 and was held by everybody has been a really good documentary now Lucy says it's because the narrator of that program said the day program and had a social media history which was uncomfortable for them to get access to Gaza and you're going to have some presenters of those programs.

They will have a bit of a history behind.

And in the question, is is the programme worth it and commissioned the program and it could have transmitted the problem is Channel 4 did and I think this worry about impartiality of broad has to be offset by the question of having part of you.

Look if you don't broadcast it and that's where they've been caught out of thing and do you think they've been a lot of conversations and more around the BBC Gaza covered in light of both of these documentaries the BBC in terms of this is putting an action plan they'll be more editorial control over these high-risk long-form programs.

Do you think the slate clean regarding its ability to make further long form content around Gazza Now is very good so strong.

I do not think there is institutional bias and the particular problems have been around these lawn programmes made by independent companies and there was a problem with the first Carter documentary but overall.

BBC needs to get its house in order because it's actually good already not because I think they were great underwear and weaknesses Roger Wilson wants to talk to you and Daniel about the secondary the came out this week, which go to the conduct of MasterChef Gregg Wallace as part of its statement in response the BBC said we accept more could and should have been done sooner as you've been a senior leader within the BBC what do you think the BBC should be doing that it didn't do in the case of how it manage the behaviour of Greg Wallace well even those who knew Watson when there is no question that enough people knew that Greg Wallace is a bit of a problem so I think the question.

Is is this the best person we have to put on a 9 on BBC one of our most popular shows and also some years ago should have been no I think talking to people in the industry.

Everyone agrees.

They were very slow on Gregg Wallace the question now is

Have you been a bit too fast on John Torode and I think there's a question that Katie asked him baby yesterday.

It was absolutely right question is this something new is a new policy and the question of on strike me out for something that happens some years ago has unsettled some people that I completely accept.

It's a no win for BBC can they keep John Torode on having lost Gregg Wallace incident and the Answer obviously they didn't think they could and Katie in your interview with Tim Davie I think he used the phrase I'm drawing a line or a phrase very similar to that and I wonder Daniel as you watch the BBC's response to the MasterChef story with reference to both of the individuals.

Do you see a different approach to how BBC is handle this shoes with high Pro tablet in the past?

I don't think they would have liked her weight quite as long as I did for Garda investigation to come through.

I don't know they wanted to not publish it beforehand by that say these things in quick succession on the Monday for the Tuesday and report for the BBC frustration.

There are some simple on that point and start Point around about dressing as they come up but I do think it also has Roger the saying that this is then I'll trying to put a line in the Sand they are trying to say actually we are doing much stronger on this a shot of the chair of the BBC so they just missed several people for about 4 for workplace incidents even go into details, but who they are what they did but he made sure that people knew that head just missed several people which is the first time.

I never said that not really felt like we are being strong about this.

We are going to make a market and we're going to put a look this line in the Sand and yes Roger Mosey on that point more widely around all the controversy.

What should account.

He look like they are saying Tim baby was very clear people are being held accountable for what happened at Glastonbury but the Gaza documentary someone who's worked inside the BBC are you expecting people to bed jobs, but I never want to lose their jobs and I think that what we seen the Garda report is too many cooks you get a 1.4 director besiege by people.

We see I'm trying to make enquiries and in my own experience as a moment just before London 2012 when we had a dog bark all of the Diamond Jubilee boat down the Thames which was awful and Mark Johnson just said I'm actually food London 2012 Roger Mosey is going to be in charge of the whole of the Olympics and everything will be answered by him and he will be accountable and that's all that sort of my God but actually it's clear and I think the problem of these sometimes is it in I don't know who's entitled Glastonbury I don't know who's in charge of that particular said he needs to have a countable people.

Proper senior referral and know who has the nail responsibility on Glastonbury the BBC finding process on that so we will hear more about that at some point absolutely some people have been asked to step back from their duties while this investigation goes on but also took finally about what what is the annual report was grappling with which was the licence fee? How many people are paying it and what the future funding of the BBC might look like what's your reading Daniel of where the BBC's position is also where the government's position may have reached the government going to bring out a green paper into what it thinks are the options for the future of the BBC effect of the next 10-year charter which will start in 2027 really people in the BBC was taken aback by how strongly son and his comments were around the various candles.

She gave interviews which were pretty pretty targeted and pretty pretty.

Snow around the management of BBC and Tim Davie I think there was that sense.

I'm comforts going to really pretty going to go see ations.

I don't think this reflects the government doesn't believe in the BBC interview recently before she when she first came.

It's office and that he clearly cares about the Beast she loves that she wanted to work and I do you think there's a general sense that the government wants to make the BBC possibly be and what they do see that split from the previous conservative government and they can come in actually improve things to say listen and reportedly ruled out moving to direct taxation as a way to fund the BBC she's supposed is still considering means testing the licence fee or allowing advertising or a subscription either of those are favoured by the BBC A-level them out.

What model do you think with fruit futureproof the BBC News comments about over BBC World micro?

And inappropriate and the Curiosity is in opposition for 1340 years and came into office in dcms as in other parts of the government lying about what they were going to do with the BBC or a sense of its future funding that said the BBC seems really happy with the way things are going and I think they are open to any mechanisms of the BBC needs to be funded.

That's the one thing.

I think most people are good world thing so the question is how you do it and the BBC is willing to be flexible is my understanding Daniel Thomas thank you very much work on the media show those of you listening may have seen shark celebrity infested Waters Pat Sheehan I was watching a little bit earlier.

If you haven't seen this is on ITV format featuring a lot of sharks and 7 celebrities in evidently.

That's going to require a little explaining fortunately we've got Andrea Jackson is the creative director of factual entertainment.

Plimsoll Productions who made the program and before we talk and yeah, let's hear some of the program.

It's a beautiful day for a break at the funeral home flight the outside of a cage describe the show haven't got a sense of it, but tell us about it take a 7 different celebrities out to the Bahamas which is the shocked as well.

There are 40 different species of sharks and across the various different weeks and episodes of the programme they seek to overcome their fears and to swim.

In the water with bigger and bigger species of sharks, so they start from a place of Fear which is very understandable not surprisingly.

We do see in them is the big on this real journey.

They come to understand that actually the greatest fear of all is an ocean without sharks and I like the idea that it came out of what you cross genre brainstorming.

What does that? I mean? I guess I know what that means but how did it work and what did it become as a pitch to commissioners with that in mind which is the company that that's made this series we have four different genres, so we've got natural history.

We've got adventure documentary and factual entertainment and and often and television we develop within those general anes, but we've been working with a pencil for quite a while now is to mine that space with no dramas map on to each other.

I think it's quite fertile territory for coming up with new ideas and be able to offer something that feels distinct and fresh and so we were talking about you.

What's the most adrenaline experience good gift to humans in the Natural World with animals and we were talking about polar bears and lions with the problem with most Apex Predators is it they would kill you and then we allowed to earn sharks and would a shark not kill you for sure what happened, but they are not these man eating Predators that we've been think of it that way by films like Jaws and so when we talk to her colleagues and the Natural History departments.

We came to understand that actually these are Accidents and it's under a ways of going into the water very safely with sharks Rose here, as I saying I was watching the program earlier and I was thinking how do you settle on which 7 celebrities?

Is to take well it's a good question I mean we wanted to cast different kinds of people with different stories for different motivations for wanting to do this and and each representing a different experience in a different point of view which would I think we've done please buy the celebrities that had the privilege to work with on this show.

I think they're all over people who are very proficient and very well known in each of their different areas of skill what they all had in common was this thing at a primordial fear of sharks and this is a question for me to ask from the security of a studio, but how dangerous is it actually will you perhaps over in the danger for the benefit of entertainment know but you know it this would not be a safe thing to do if you weren't doing it with.

Play respectable experienced operators and underwater dive team so we had multiple layers of of safety and this took months and months of planning so it to be clear it would not be safe for Joe Public to go in the water and swim with sharks this was something was done in a very carefully managed way with very experienced people and that you can only be in the water with sharks in a way.

That is safe if it's also respectful to them.

These are there waters and we were very mindful of that when we took humans in there to have a quarter experience and what about the practicalities of actually making and filming it.

Can you communicate with camera Crews underwater while they're filming your celebrities at the it was really very difficult we had the safety comes in place to radios but once the celebrities went under the water.

We could not see what was.

To the camera down there filming but we above the water couldn't see what was there normally be watching something on the video village, but we couldn't see that so when they came out of the water with download from the people have been down there filming but we can see it, so rushed to them see the footage and and and understand what had happened to be able to plan for the next day, but these experiences are not produced the celebrities went under the water and they were having that experiences swimming and diving with the sharks you it's really it's not something that was produced at well programme sounds absolutely brilliant.

Would I do it while knowing that George has made me terrified and I must not be terrified of your beautiful wonderful animal so the series 2 you know who to call.

Infested Waters that in that information is very important shark celebrity Waters are available now on ITV X now if like me you are a fan of procycle.

I suspect you know this music this is ACDC music for its coverage of the Tour de.

France odds currently stage 11 of the race today.

It's in and around Toulouse and four decades first on Channel 4 then on ITV the tour has been on free to air TV that though will come to an end next year Warner Brothers Discovery have bought exclusive UK rights and next year the race will only be available behind a paywall on tmp sports let's Learn about how the media covers the tour and how this decision could affect broader coverage of cycling as a sport and as a mode of transport with Rachel January staff writer.

Cycling magazine roulette in Toulouse covering the Rise Rachel hello from Toulouse what does an average day look like cover in the Tour de France for you? It's a lot of time spent in the car actually obviously the saucepans for 21 stages, so my day kind of looks like driving to the star where I gather some interviewees generally more kind of timeless features that I'm working on that a bit more long form because usually the interview to get the start you're not going to write up in time before the stage is actually finished if yours later, then we had to the finish when we sit in the pressroom watch the stage on TV normal in about half an hour remaining Britain press.

We had out to wear the team buses are because they finish areas reserved for TV interviews and then once what is cross finish line and have had a very hard down the bike we annoyed and basically trying to ask you some questions.

We also speak to team staff sports directors and try and get a picture of what happened at that.

Cycling is very complex and normally you can't quite see everything that happens.

Just thinking about you trying to get those interviews how much access do you get to the ride? Is it difficult I think the where does yes, it's very difficult protected and it's very unlikely you'll get a one-to-one into and a written press if your TV you will but actually you can you can go got quite a lot of history from speaking to their team is the staff members people have been around them.

I think that often gives you a good insight into that kind of personalities and the plan behind the brazen head executed that so they tend to be the people that we get to speak to you at the finish and 21 teams racing this year.

So how do you pick which stories are Andy which teams are going to focus on or is it just for access to ever speak to you because the story I think that kind of depends on what's happening to sort of look for those key protagonists something ok? What they've won the stage.

We're not gonna be able to speak to them, but let's go to a coach is very close with them and kind of try and tell a bit more of those human stories about their personalities and highlight.

That goes into a stage waiting for example in a sport that can sometimes be a bit inaccessible a bit hard to understand so it's sort of trying to tell the story is a bit behind the races who are kind of hidden behind his helmet and glasses that sort of Bahrain Rachel for the moment.

Thank you.

Let's also bring in Chris Boardman and Olympic gold medallist man, who's won the yellow jersey at the Tour de France and all-round legend of the sport Chris thanks for the media show hello good afternoon.

I actually wanted to speak to the previous piece because I actually know where Andrea was on Tiger beach and I spent many hours underwater photograph and sharks and to do that now is many people listening or no you went from being a competitor to be in one of the best broadcasters and analysis of the sport you now with active your accent and an active travel.

The England and chairs Sport England will talk about your current role in a minute, but I wonder as you went through your career as an athlete.

What are your memories of the media? Did you look at them as a problem? No not really it was all part of it.

Just listening to Rachel it's a real as about two-and-a-half thousand registered the event that travel round this three-and-a-half 1000 mile event and it is essentially it's like the Olympics but it moves everyday.

I think it is still is still the biggest annual Media Ranch in the world.

It's like I think it's about three-and-a-half billion is the global audience 190 countries still amazing thing, but it's just part of it and we see those images everyday and relationships make a big difference so there's a lot of people who worked on that race for 4 years and years.

The journalist of the cameraman on the wind about it and then you're still come back the next year's California once you're actually in you you actually can't leave people over 4 years so skips a belt on it.

It's not too difficult and you were famous for the thoroughness of your preparation as an athlete when you move into the media, did you take a similar approach to do you have to sit down and think what skills do I need how do I prepare for this moment, but it's a different story on I think they're the beauty of the the covers that we worked on for for ITV I'm doing the first and last weekend this year at all.

I can fit unfortunately this this final year you'll have to tell the story in a different way, so you can have a look for the interest and not be patronising to people who a die-hard viewers, but also not incomprehensible to the why might my auntie is 87 years old and she just wouldn't completely allergic to exercise of the Tour de France wouldn't answer the door while it was on for 3.

So those people have got such a different product and so I really really enjoyed it had the opportunity to learn how to make little 3 minutes features that we we dropped into the program.

I must ask you about the fact that it's not going to be free to air from next year.

Do you think that will have an impact on how cycling is you not just as a sport but with reference to your current job there is a mode of transport on the latter, but certainly the visibility of cycling as a sports a piece of entertainment that there are certain events that just transcend The Sportsman you got you got Wimbledon you got SuperValu got the Ashes some things that I just bigger and the Tour de France is it and I mentioned the size of the audience that you have a massive casual viewer cohort the you don't get for the rest of the I know that ITV figures they were typically get just under a million viewers and I know that the pay we'll have to go.

Find is about 48000 so I can't see the logic from the business point of view and I think we all miss out.

We actually not going to have the opportunity to the people who just pay attention once a year enjoy and Chris do stay with us, but I wanted to bring Rachel back and just ask for her views on the TV coverage moving behind her paywall and the impact that it might have on the sport.

I think it's a real shame.

I mean say ITV Tour de France highlights show became like one of the greatest all-time Sports programs that really conveyed the kind of madness and the majesty of the Tour de France in a way that you know other programs didn't regular segments with geologists and just talking about this event for what it is in it away from away from just the cycling itself.

I think many of us I can hold perception of the sport was shaped by the way it was not very broad open-minded way, so we might still get highlights think there's people discussing the potential getting highlights on Quest but it's not just about being able to watch the race.

It's about all of the stuff that went well.

And I think it's a big loss and Chris Boardman is a huge fan of the sport.

So he can't ask this question but perhaps I can as a bit more Fairweather but did you when you were covering it? Do you when you're covering sense that the country only tunes in once a year for the Tour de France or is that on fair? I don't think it's that are mentioned.

You know all the women's world cup or euros those bits that everybody goes and paste tension to even if that is not your sport and you you step out of your own life and enjoy this emotional experience.

There's no question the Tour de France at the Olympics are the two things that do it for the whole population not just the fans and I want to finally Chris in your current role where you're very much talking about cycling as a mode of transport as opposed to is a sport.

Is it harder to get the medias attention than it is when you say I want to talk about the tour.

I think the separate entities one is a form of in amazing entertain.

The cliche is the play without a script on its fascination and the other is something that could give her children transport independence and the ability to stay at after-school clubs, and I think we need to talk about them in different ways to get a different type of people's attention one is an everyday thing.

I mean ideally we just want to be something that you don't think about it's just how I get around.

Thank you very much indeed.

I must ask you Rachel just as we got you on.

I'm looking on the BBC Sport website here says abrahamson wins has forgot your handed late reprieve after crash.

They'll be people listening to me.

I don't quite know what is all about so tell us.

What is the story of the Tour today that you'll be trying to tell not just too very very keen cyclingfans, but 2 people who have Sony dipping into the tour stage win for one of the smaller teams were the underdogs in the race, but I think probably the big story is the yellow well is the favourite to win the yellow jersey sofa gacha crashing in the final 5 km?

What's the race so it's about figuring out what that means for him for the rest of the race and the impact that's going to have you guys have just told all the fans the end of the door today.

I told me offer that Rachel Jerry Chris Boardman thank you very much both of you coming on the brain and apologies to all those Tour de France fans out there on behalf of Ross not me well if you want to watch the highlights of sounds like an extraordinary stage you can do that via ITV4 and Vit b.

X if you want to listen mate any edition of the media show is Katie and I often say you can do that via BBC sounds from us more of I guess that's it for this week goodbye.

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