Read this: Trading off the news, Edinburgh International TV Festival, how the global media covered White House peace talks

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts on this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome in Edinburgh TV festival which is one of the UK's biggest gatherings of broadcasters streamers and producers in a moment will get into some of the subjects dominating conversations here also the new Cristiano is the new US editor for Channel 4 News her first day in the job was Monday when Donald Trump hosted talks on the Ukraine war with the number of leaders including and Emmanuel macron will hear about reporting on a remarkable day of diplomacy and will learn about a radical new business model for investigative reporting studio buy to guess with particular and important perspectives on the TV industry that Bologna reports on Hollywood

Founded the digital media company park and presents the town podcast as well as writing a widely read newsletter Camilla Lewis is creative director at Komedia which is series like chess Masters and 999 on the Frontline it's also just launched the hugely successful podcast the affair and it has a YouTube channel total true Crime so it is eating in the number of Arenas to see you.

Thanks for joining me.

Thank you.

This is a big industry get together you too.

I imagine have different priorities is when you arrive in event like this Camilla what are you looking for out of two three days spent in the company of the industry chance to get a sense of what's going on in the industry really as opposed to just what the 2nd of Barry good and often very informative but because there's a lot of politics behind who says what publicly you don't really get the real Jen what's fantastic about being in the lobby talking to people if you walk past them.

What's really going on Netflix where's the money really being spent who did that deal and what and how do we feel about that person when they might leave their job? It's all that stuff and it's you know without sounding like is a terrible bit cruel.

Industry is certainly an industry that likes to chatter about what's going on getting a sensor that especially in these times where we're not carry out a lot together great.

That is the only industry.

What about you? Why you in town to get to the newsletter in for the town? So I'm really just looking to talk to people and hear what concerns them what they're doing.

What kind of business is emerging from this and translate that into care about and your primarily focused on big Media businesses in the USA underwear UK TV fits into the equation.

It's a bit part of me.

I'm in reviewing Stephen Lambert later this.

He's a very successful and scripted producer based in the UK but he's got perhaps the hardest Unscripted show in the US in the trainers and he's a big power player is done undercover Wife Swap a bunch of Big Show's in the US that there is a lot of crossover in Frankley a lot of the best ideas in television originated in the UK and region in Europe so I want to get get there first come out.

Can you be surprised by what you here giving that you're obviously work in this industry.

You talk to people within every day of your working life and hear you are in Edinburgh can you still hear things spot trends that you didn't quite see so clearly beforehand.

Yes because we have so much in siloso to hear that there are trends that you may have thought you spot and you were so clever because you saw this was coming to hear that.

There's been there been validated and explored by the mystery.

Why is really interesting to hear about deals that are being done in different ways you can consider working with brands in different ways is is always open to talk with both of you and I want to spend a couple of minutes learning about what you do.

From Los Angeles ahead line butchers a website from last year which bread is he going to ruin my day? How Matthew belloni became the most bread columnist for Hollywood's executive class reporting about the entertainment industry and when you do that.

There's a lot of puffery.

There's a lot of Spain there's a lot of BS that goes back and forth but most people are really trying to get through that and when you people don't sometimes like it and I hope that when they hear the mobility is calling they say ok.

I will have a real conversation with them on something that is not the approved talking points and you know if they don't pick up or if they do when they say no comment then a lot of people going to know that that happened.

I've been doing is the editor of the reporter I was an entertainment lawyer.

I was a journalist do I bring a lot of that experience to this role and what I do in my new slider in on the podcast this I tried to break through accepted notions of a puffer in Hollywood is behind and quite setting up on your own but co-founding Park which is a media organisation and really focusing on two formats and newsletter and a podcast absolutely had a great experience at the Hollywood reporter was there for 14 days.

I became the other in 2016 and integrate venue its 100-year old brand that covers the entertainment industry and from a business perspective, but we also did a lot of celebrity and can't focus.

I was there at the time when the industry was changing a lot and digital was overtaking print and there's a lot of opportunities for us to.

News on we had a lot of investment eventually from me it got to a point where I didn't want to do the kind of accepted reporting an accepted journalism that the industry kind of demands of the ingrained trade publications.

There is an unwritten code what you couldn't couldn't do and we had another should group there that was really adhering to that me.

It was more interesting to do something that will be disruptive to that to that ecosystem.

I just give all of you listening if you don't know about maths work and idea of the scale of its impact.

There was a recent series called the studio where you play yourself and there are many journalist who get to appear in shows as themselves that happened Seth Rogen who created the show just reached out one day and said you think it'll be funny if my character listens to your podcast who plays the head of a studio.

It's really sad people reach out to me all the time.

So wasn't that big of a surprise but initially was just they wanted to use my podcast as a narrative device to keep the show going and kind of the story was but then he said actually we thought it would be funny if you are sort of a nemesis for a few episode where you're trying to track down a story about a big convention in Las Vegas and we're trying to prevent the craziness from being exposed to you and the more I thought about it.

I thought it was funny.

I never had any idea what the Show will turn out to be turns out that it actually is good video is up for elite 23 my skin.

So it's it turned out to be an amazing showing a great experience very cool people watching know that you were playing yourself.

I wanna people did not other people thought that I was just an actor because they never actually explain that I'm a real saying if you're not in the business, you might think that this is just an actor have people come up to me and say you're getting studio.

Doing next now.

I am I'm a real guy the podcast is real like that is being good at South by southwest.

There was a big screaming sort of waikato from the ideas cos they know they're in the playlist to my next question because everyone in the business knows who you are.

Do you feel that when I walk into a room of people from the TV industry or from the media industry and they're all being friendly, but they're all a little bit scared.

I don't think I'm a scary Guy I'm actually very friendly and approachable in person and I think people that work with me on a regular basis would say that I do have a voice and I do have a perspective on the business and I'm not afraid to say that so people know that but I think it leads to a level of honesty and candidates that I can I can have real conversations with people and that's what I think they think when they see me.

Final question before we bring Camilla in again.

Tell us about Los Angeles is obviously a city at the very heart of the global Media industry, but it's been under pressure now several years partly because of strikes within the industry partly because of production cost me in some productions are going elsewhere.

We also another terrible wildfires as well.

How do you categorise how it is as a media town? I think it's really had a low point right now to be honest.

I covered this business for I was 20 years and I haven't seen the the moral level and that kind of disparity and real anxiety within the industry at this level ever in it's a combination of them.

Yes, the wildfires were horrible and both and out the dinner and specific areas that are heavily populated by the time in history people but it's also because of the exodus of Productions there such aggressive tax credits that are going on mostly actually right now in the UK that are just stealing a way out of the production so people.

If they get a job which is really difficult right now.

It's a recessionary Time in the content business.

They're probably going to have to be away from their family for 6-months and we had some pretty devastating Drake's a couple of years ago that reset the industry for the Post streaming boom and there was a real boom during covered of all the shows and now the company is pulling back in the heat is really being felt within Hollywood appreciate you coming on the programme.

Just saying this through the addition.

This is Bologna from Park if you are just joining us where in Edinburgh and also in the Studio with me is Camilla Lewis from kerb Media you specialise in Unscripted formats as it's referred to hear it when I just at the Edinburgh TV festival as it's referred to within the people who don't work within the industry when we talk about Unscripted what do we mean from documentaries all the way to what we would call factual entertainment shows that scan shows like MasterChef Autos which lights in the studio.

Somewhere and the type of people who your hoping will fund the programs you make are they changing are you having a different conversation? Yes absolutely it's a wider market.

I mean that you might be weird for the audience to hear that it's depressing time for the industry because there's so much more content being by so many different people in so many different ways, but the money is working through yet.

So right now people that myself independent producers are speaking to lots of different way looking to try and finance programs arrange waisbren from Brands all the way to Public Service Broadcasting what does conversations primarily be in the UK or is the UK market not in and of itself enough to provide you with the creative and also financial options that a business size requires any right now.

I think there is a lot of Opportunity in the UK so I think the UK does in many ways but with a globalised so I think what you what that means a lot of the UK companies now thinking more globally so you might be.

Companies in the UK but I'll have a global reach she's definitely not thinking just UK I'm interested in that those so if you are thinking globally does that affect the kind of programmes and ideas you look to develop that you more like you make generic global ideas that work and lots of markets near me never to have a generic.

Sorry.

I think you know it makes you look for things that would be popular and and that does not mean that has to be a non-parochial market because actually as Adolescents shows which was on Netflix and was a very famous Parochial story really it was destroyed that spoke potentially just British but actually ended up being Netflix number two in the world.

I want to ask you about with the cost of development so all of us has TV consumers we see the finished product a lot of things get developed and don't end up green let down end up becoming programs or series.

Where does the cost of that development for does it fall on the people who are buying the programs as it fall on you as producer and it's both you can do deals.

What you just tell her TopLine to a bit about broadcaster or something might pay for it and I'll pay you to develop it or you develop yourself.

Obviously we prefer that stuff ourselves.

We get to keep what's called intellectual property the money behind that idea so idea becomes big that I do you make money back on it so to speak it's a bit of course never goes nothing dies things restaurants things rest that's one verb.

I'm sure there's other things otherwise that people in the industry describe resting but I'm also interested in one of the reasons.

We were particularly.

Keen to get you on is that you make classic television for linear television TV network streamers, but you also have a very successful YouTube channel and you make podcast and as such that's not the approach to all projects and companies take why are you doing that because I'm interested making content and we reach a wide audience and we've got a quite clear.

I thought about what we're about and our intention but actually why those markets is really there's no Mark

Look at ways of getting information out there and podcast have probably podcast with YouTubers that you can be very successful.

We've got 1.1 million people tuned into our YouTube channel for however however the money can take quite a long time to come through so how you finance systems becomes irrelevant is the money I mean on YouTube sounds like an awful.

Lot and get off back compare with what you might get for a series boot by Channel 4 or buy Netflix a very different model.

It's a long town model so I think what you have to do is be in it for the long run.

He had be willing to commit for a long time because that's what the content once you listen to this in the US will producers of high-end TV is it's cold in the industry expensive TV in other words are they also now get involved in making other often cheaper forms of content Live podcast or YouTube content.

I think they're trying like exactly what she said the model is very difficult.

It's much easier to develop something.

Get a cheque from a buyer than it is to develop something put it on a platform like YouTube and hope that it finds an audience which would then be monetize there are other ways to do in there are companies within the industry that are trying to do a product placement or via mini Studios that will finance some of this content with the bed being that it will perform on certain channels digitally but the real holy what is to do it all and to get those checks for the big premium shows while also experimenting in the US doing that you think this is a company which is is doing it all.

I mean number of places that I think are getting those check still from the big buyers and using that money to find development.

I think the real success on YouTube in the digital channels are more in The Creator world whether specific people like a Mr B's or dude perfect or some of these more youth oriented content producers that.

YouTube following and then monetizing into a company that can produce shows across the day and then perhaps go to the big streamers and say yes Amazon I would like to do a game show for you.

I'm Mr beast pay me $109 and I'll do a specific show for you and I do that in fact.

We're talking about that earlier at the TV festival that these games back for two more serious so clearly Amazon was peace who got first time.

I just don't create a contact one way and I think you're right there all the money that's out there.

So they're not they do deals for cheap.

What's more interesting is in development if you've got ideas that a good program ideas developed extensively with a stream of a 2 years I could be a fair bit about real-life stories of affairs with don't doesn't really get older non-scripted.

We couldn't really get it right costing wise so 6-months launch, Podcast and we lost the podcast called the affair with Anna Williamson has been huge hit 750000 people listen to it so far and we're in a position of now so we can cast it now because now.

What you're saying exactly right now.

It's kind of like one thing can feed another thing and it's not about either doing high-end or not this will end up being a high-end documentary shows with big talks backwards channels about it being a high-end doctor because we can cast it because we do the podcast and it's just before we we move on to our next guest and there's lots of jargon flying around at this industry when we are at the festival high-end television on my right.

That's a million-pound episode.

Yes, if you hear people talking about high-end television in the context of the UK at least that means television that cost a million or more per hour Matt belloni from Park Camilla Lewis from Komedia are both gonna be staying with us through this edition of the media show from Edinburgh was back at the Monster from that tenants meeting with Donald Trump and JD vans this time president selenski was back by European leaders who also came to Washington including the UK Prime Minister serve.

Needless to say all in all a very important day.

It was also industrious.

Tyler's first day in her new job as Channel 4 News us editor.

Thank you very much indeed for joining us during such a busy week.

When did you realise that your first day was going to come inside with such an important moment for international diplomacy voluntary my first day on there was going to be a tiny bit later, but I have just got here and three kids into husband and so we staying in a hotel and I was going to spend accepting Ben I was a bit jealous of Alaska thinking off.

Wish I was going to go that's a really big story is huge and then when the White House you know meeting was so we just thought that way but we can't be involved in some way and luckily.

Able to go along and you been on the media show number of times and your role as deputy political editor at ITV news.

I wonder how you would compare the challenges of being a Westminster based political and then someone based in Washington and try to tell the story of American politics.

I mean in some ways it is quite similar the biggest difference for me is that I don't know it as I spent 16 years in the lobby covering Westminster this year.

I was even Charing the association of Westminster correspondent scan of the equivalent of the White House once I'm very interesting to watch how they greet foreign Correspondents and if we do it nice to eat enough in the UK lots of it feels the same it's like where do I walk? Am I allowed on that bit of grass so that was like know if you can pick up The White House you're in big trouble.

It's working out how the brief things happen when you gonna get questions.

You know and I was doing all this as I say having just got to this country so it was.

My day when I was sort of you know in a pack waiting for president zelensky to arrive whilst texting her babysitter a back pick up my children under the windows first impressions if you could see differences in how things like briefings and the exchanges between the media and the leaders is there a difference between how it's organised and coordinated in Britain and what you're familiar with in London Westminster for the daily briefing from number 10 happens on the record, but the cameras that I did consider at one point that they would put a camera there yesterday.

I was listening to Caroline Levitt the press secretary here in a briefing the whole thing is on camera so it felt completely different.

They are much more hostile to the mainstream Media here.

She began that briefing with you know a good 10-minutes it felt like basically saying how awful the media were and how you know she can't stand them at one point when there was a New York

Question that you don't like she said, are you expect that from the New York Times you don't tend to get stuff like that in Westminster and then there was the kind of you know pageantry of it all to be honest.

I think it was unprecedented here.

I was walking down pebble beach which is a bit but all the broadcaster.

Set up to report on the white house and I was speaking to a people who covered the white house for 20 years and they said never seen anything like this seven leaders from Europe as well as president.

Zelensky is well, and then the way Donald Trump dealt with it when it was all on camera as he was meeting those leaders for quite a long time quite a lot more than you get in the UK and someone just said this feels like The Apprentice TV show for him and that was really challenging for you know they were following some rolls.

They didn't talk about the most contentious stuff on camera, but president zelensky actually didn't say very much at all.

Local office obviously trying to avoid a repeat of what happened in February when he was here in the top really humiliated but he had clearly been briefed by the European keep your car keep your call and he decided not to say very much Donald Trump meanwhile.

I mean it felt like it.

Was you know a TV show for him in fact someone wants Dad and that February meeting presidents of Leinster the most telling moment was at the end where President Trump says this would make a great TV things are similar the way the pole operates that certain cameras meetings and everyone else uses that information is quite similar to Westminster but it feels like a pretty different and thank you very much for speaking to his best of luck in new job that SanDisk Astana the US editor of Channel 4 News macaroni.

Just listening to that.

Do you feel when you're watching President Trump that you're not just watching a political operator?

So Media operator absolutely operates with the White House press corps the trump administration is openly hostile in a way that others will not there access issues.

They give favourite treatment to certain outlets and influences and people that would not even allowed on the way down as mine in the past.

So it's a very different situation and when you're watching it in the US all the time because it is all the time Trump is constantly talking all the time it feels like a TV show absolutely and he thinks that way have not happy but many of the people in his administration have television experience but the defence sector has been want now coming events in Washington and that meeting between trump and Putin before that was TV rain and independent Russian television channel after being forced to shut down in Russia in March

22 there now broadcasting from Amsterdam on YouTube ekaterina can say is news director and anchor and she's with us on the media.

Show me know thank you very much indeed for the speaking to us.

How did you go about covering the talks in Washington with you? Thank you.

Well go situation and solve the future of the war with Ukraine and Russia of course is the main topic for the audience of Tailoring so we were working you know the Alaskan Friday so we've been working in starting from 20 till 2 a.m.

Or 3 a.m.

At night and then the same was on Monday when we had the Washington and you know 24/7 ready to the 24th, but we had like 8 or 9 hours non-stop coverage with all the pictures coming.

Washington now with all the statements that were made by the different representatives of different countries and of course the analysts that we were speaking to each other it was the political analysts and specialists from Russia most part of them are of course not in Russia anymore.

Just like to be rain is nothing anymore.

They were forced to leave the country about they're still got an apple political commentators and also we had Western commentators and ukrainians of course you know trying to understand.

What is really going on and you know the funniest thing.

I'm sure it has mentioned that reporting to was that the only true that we're getting right now.

The days is when something goes wrong with you when you can hear what Donald Trump is actually.

I think you've been Partners and colours.

They were just people who didn't see that there were a couple of moments were small.

Conversation work on microphone and I'm sure you covered that on TV right.

I'm interested you broadcast on YouTube YouTube gives anyone who puts video or live broadcasting on which platform a lot of data.

You must know where your viewers are.

Can you tell us where are people? Where are the people who are watching TV rain 5% of the audience is in Russia other parts of the world including the US the European countries Netherlands for example France UK and space the smaller part of the audience statistics these days because he's being blocked only in Russia but you know it's getting harder and harder to watch so that's why people are starting to use messily starting to use vpns.

We know that you know yesterday.

We had 65% of here is in Russia today.

It's like 45% and Big Splash in Netherlands because vpns are directing massively to Netherlands you constantly having to monitor the data.

You're getting and check exactly what it's telling vs.

The efforts of the Russian authorities to about people looking at your programming.

Just finally your organisation TV rain was labelled and undesirable organisation by the authorities in Russia in 2023 practical terms, what is that meant for the station and for it's staff official in Russian Federation people who are in Russia cannot co-operate with us in I cannot you know have a reporter underground in Russia because this reporter would get a criminal case decided to get a criminal case in Russian Federation or my colleagues from TV rain.

Is there no analyst who can openly talk to me on air from Russian Federation even people who are just watching us cannot be posted the post in social media written by TV rain all the people who operate within you have a lot of people who work with in Russia they're all anonymous.

So we are hiding face.

We cannot put the voices even voices because it's too dangerous, but you know in this 21st century when you have so many technologies and so many so many new ideas and ways out of that we are one step forward then I would say so they are old communist from KGB and and Soviet Union we are here better than them from the list of them.

If you say thank you very much indeed for speaking to us.

We appreciate your time and country.

Play news director and Anchor with TV rain and listening that Bologna we were talking about this because of the different meeting that Donald Trump posted in Washington DC ever since he's become president if not before I'm sure you will have been monitoring how the US Media industry responds to Donald Trump in fact at the Edinburgh TV festival earlier.

You were part of a pan for trump vs.

The media which is hosted by my media show co-presenter Katie razzall.

How do you observe how the media business is approaching the president at the level the ownership of the media industry.

There is being a pretty consistent capitulation to Donald Trump he has made a number of moves against media companies that nearly suing them over coverage at for the most part those cases have been settled and those were pretty winnable cases and the speculation is that

Call because they want to Curry favour with the business is absolutely push back of that but I don't think the the owner of DBS the owner CBS yes, they the previous owner just sold the company.

She didn't give you the New York Times yesterday and she said that the $69 that they paid to settle Trump's claim.

She was willing to pay more.

She wanted it settle so that was to get a specific deal done within a billion dollar transaction and they needed the FCC approval Donald Trump we think made it clear that the settlement of his case was contingent on the FCC approval.

They paid in happened that trump came from reality television the world people like me for a British producer produce trump and his learning is lessons from us, so I phoned the responsibility in the world need to make sure we don't produce another trump ones enough to me Lewis you're with comedian.

Eeyore from paw same with me here in on the media show in Edinburgh and we can bring another guest now is co-founder of to US based companies once called Media one's called Hunter Brook Capital One of These companies investigate and brake stories the other makes trades based on those stories all done legally transparent full disclosure here's a taste of the story.

That's just been released about the Environmental Protection Agency in the US or the EPA is it known that is not focused on protecting the environment by the same industry, is it supposed to rain is investigating the corporations poisoning America WhatsApp common is is weather's on the media show thanks for your time Sam Stardust right at the Beginning who first had the idea that you could have an investment firm.

In tandem with investigative journalism was very simple it was that journalism as you all know it's struggling right now.

I've seen as a bad business.

We believe incredibly valuable and all his other Industries investment funds law firms in freeriding off the back of investigative reporters were producing valuable stories from all the while investigative reporting has nearly gone extinct in the downstairs to change that but if I understand it correctly for your in to make the most of it it must be the only received recipient of the journalism.

Otherwise everyone would get the journalism your funding and you lose your competitive advantage to be clear Oliver stories on our website newsletter on social media know as no paywalls to everybody or find consider stories before they are published and take positions in the market value and good company.

Companies or with other stories will share their stories with law firms that might end up doing the bad actors that we expose but a lot of our stories.

We just public for everyone with neither of those two things publish amazing journalist like the one who produced that story about Hastings Nebraska that we publish this week on to factories that continue to Toxic chemicals while the other way this structure then do you have a Newsroom that is completely separate from the the Investment operation order the to talk to each other everyday.

That's exactly right.

We've got a Newsroom accurate important stories in the world journalists from the Wall Street Journal to the time to have written for a republic the first time we run The Newsroom with the highest standards for business in Paradise independent journalists eating out the truth.

You're going to go figure out.

The world better, but if you got a team of industry professionals straight out of hbs sitting behind talking to each other in the same.

I know that if you go onto your site and you'll see a story the byline saying he's worked on the story, but there's also a page which list your stated trading position.

You're saying that's there to do to be transparent to tell everyone how its work, but presumably some people have raised questions about the editorial integrity of having these two things so closely intertwined best thing about it.

Is that everything we do incentivizes accuracy because we're not trying to monetize.

How many people clicked on an article or not trying to drown subscribers ok to them or monetizing? Whether we get something right and so as I mentioned editorial independence is actually the whole age for the business and it's also the thing are most excited about because it enables us to produce the kinds of stories that have led to you.

Stations in Toronto reply to big national lawsuits the way that you structured by the sounds of it is also designed to make your investment money, so is that side of it working all the stories that you're on covering then helping you to make trades which pay you back.

It is working which is really exciting because only started this is an experiment that iron.

The final micropower his parents were war reporters.

We both have this belief that journalist undervalued shares undervalued around we worked with they actually might have insights that were incredibly valuable and what we've seen over the years since we started running is that it's clearly you for the world made a big difference out there at the business is also working which is incredibly for a fine.

Thanks for telling us about it.

That's a compliment from hunted Media we one of the big Singh's.

Edinburgh TV festival is the Need For Business models to be reimagined and Camilla there's a Reason by radical approach to funding investigative journalism successful for them I can see why moneywise it works.

It's it's clearly very self-serving.

I think the concern I'd have is about the editorial integrity although would say the stories they cover I'm sure true and thoroughly investigated their choices stories.

They cover is obviously geared towards financial imperative mainly not only that was obviously have to make sure they have a wide gamut so that the audience so-called will fall for it.

I think there's a question of authenticity whereby if you don't know what the mission isn't it's great testing some element of transparency, but full transparency is always very hard to show unless you know what the Ethos of where the money is coming from to start with with something like a public service broadcaster.

Do you know where we had Sam Express DE14 at red to be brief way there? And I think I know website you would get more details macaroni.

What would you? What do you make a reason? Why most publications?

Don't allow the journalist to take positions in companies that they cover because I was in a position a couple of months ago.

I knew the day before it was announced that the Walt Disney company was going to announce a big news in Abu Dhabi and if I had but start that day went up the next day and I knew that was going to happen if that happened 10 years ago during the me to move them when I knew that the CEO of PBS was going to have a big Ronan farrow expose about in the next day the stock tank.

I could have sorted CBS so there are ethical guidelines in place for a reason I do like the transparency here and I said if you're up front about what you're doing you can maybe have both Media is what it's called a first listening want to look it up and see what you make of that idea now.

We're at the or very close to the Edinburgh TV festival a little bit earlier in the day one of the sessions was called the revival of the bunk Buster and that was because of the popularity of the return of Jilly Cooper's rival there's a t.

Adaptation which has been doing very well for Disney here's a clip of it.

They have some sense this has been commissioned by Disney + today they've announced some of the actors who are going to be involved in to Hayley Atwell river ever and others have been surprised to see this type of content being commissioned by by Disney Disney is interesting because 10 years ago.

They would not have done this but slowly the Disney brand has grown in encompasses a lot more with no payment Tommy the sex tape show was on Disney plus in the world in the US with on Hulu which is a brand that Disney owns and can at least differentiate a little but I think of Disney plus wants to be a global brand arrival Netflix they're going to have to be.

Stuff into the 10th of May not necessarily be totally am praying for Disney but what about Camilla the broader point of the success of this type of drama does it surprise you to see it doing well? What's happening often television with falling back on things with no work before and with supersize and this is a brilliant example of a thing super size for a streaming platform and we're talking about Unscripted scripted Witcher 2 words that come up a lot of this TV festival you specialise in Unscripted and of course this kind of thing is the other side of the coin is is scripted.

Just more broadly as we come towards the end of the program.

This is the sons of being you needed to this earlier commit a strange time for the television industry billions and billions of pounds flowing through it and yet.

There are some very very pressing concerns not.

Number of people who are currently out of work as you have conversations with people from all sides of the industry.

What's your reading of of where we've got two brilliantly when she just said earlier on today.

She's producer one of the greatest the greatest scripted produces.

She she created Grey's Anatomy and many other things but what she said are you going to stay independent state route believe in and you've got to back your own thoughts and I think will win a world of algorithms.

We can't just fall for the algorithm.

It isn't giving advice to me when you've got it.

Yeah independent mean.

It means believing in having integrity and what you believe might work and actually backing that all the way can you not do that and also do your best to cater? What the what the algorithms are looking for? I think it's worth that was VPN if it's a really good way of clearly seen that what you see is not necessary what you get where are your people watching from? You can't even tell that with another of them nowadays and you never honestly the biggest shows on Netflix

And adolescence to show that the algorithm would have never said would be popular in so what's the lesson from that then because of course everyone here and it's the nature of any industry get-together not just reading notes and cutting Gear because you never know what's going to be a hit and you've got to therefore back what you believe in because look Bake Off was just a small show on the BBC One's put you on the spot.

What's One Show or series which you look at everything alright? This is a reason for the TV industry to be really excited at the moment.

Love Island did that count in the US at the moment is another one that using the US in one the my is that come from know where that was not from Nowhere but love Island didn't didn't know directions straight away right now and it was who is very successful elsewhere before came with us.

Creative director at Komedia and Matt belloni, who is from the media company park and from the town? That's it.

Thank you very much for listening by presenter of the trip coming soon to BBC Radio 4 understand feed psychedelics the category of drugs that induce altered States are having something of a moment over 10 pesos.

I'll be diving into a rapidly evolving landscape inflatable head to the glands on a particular toad from the past and into the future.

I'll be asking what does it all mean? That's the trip with me Tim Haywood listen first on BBC