Read this: Noel Clarke libel case, AI articles, filming wildlife

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Across 23 countries and will hear how several publications had to withdraw stories, I've heard emerged that they may been written by AI but will start with from Friday the actor and director Noel Clarke lost his libel case against the Guardian the paper road Runner series of stories containing allegations of sexual misconduct, Clark may know from Doctor Who kidulthood was suing for 70 million in damages the judgement found that the meaning of each of the newspapers articles was substantially Katherine Ryan editor-in-chief of the Guardian said afterwards the judgement is clear that our investigation was thorough and fair a template the public interest journalism, She Wrote what are the journalist who worked on the story is showing colour and I spoke to her earlier to work on the story very well.

It was the beginning of April 2021.

I got a call from polyester is the investigations editor of The Guardian asking if I could check out some leaves that have come through two sources you contacted the Guardian raising concerns about Parkins I remember speaking to Paul and actually doodling Noel Clarke as I was on the phone to him, so I don't know who he was and recognising this photograph, but not really been to aware and along with an excellent investigative journalist release it Osborne we split some initial Leeds and spent a few days making pools and I think within 3 or 4 days that became pretty a number of women making pretty serious allegations against him and answering you we were potentially onto a story here help us understand the process then within the garden you spend those days making calls you hear details of serious allegations presumably you then go back to your editor or editors to share what you've heard guess so.

This is doing the pandemic it was April 2021.

So everything is happening via zoom or video calls or phone calls which is quite unusual and Lucy my teleporter and Paul are editor with get onto a video link every morning and we would effectively download Paul on what happened the day before so who we have spoken to you what allegations they have made.

What's the operation was available, what sort of documentation is available and reporting and I have these really clear distinct memories of these calls where Lucy telling me what she had heard from her sources and it matched up very well with what I was hearing from my sources even though these remember unconnected and we were in allegations of you.

No bullying her unwanted sexual contacts a general the picture of an incredibly sexualize atmosphere on his sets where he has a lot of power and limited not feel able to challenge is behave.

Really within days it became clear that these annotations were really really credible and that's really intensify double porting is spoke to her and also really tried to collaborate is allegations wherever possible I think that's something people might not realise about the sort of journalism that we doing here is that we speak to people and you get that counts but also ask them for corporation.

We also asking for documentation.

We say do you have any text messages of you discussing this from the time? Did you tell any family and friends about it does anyone else witnesses and then we are independent recollections as well at the allegations and also doing things like that documentation emails text messages.

You know bank records and Simon and you're just really trying to build up the most clear and credible account possible the stories no doubt had an impact and in time.

Noel Clarke the Guardian do you remember the moment you were told about that? Yes, he waited exactly here to see us and I remember being contacted by all my Avatar and being told you know this is happened.

He has about the paperwork to begin a lawsuit against us, but it sounds strange to say this now, but I didn't necessarily think it would go all the way you know it's not uncommon for people to begin legal action and then just continue as though I felt at that point the it might not and imports.

You know I I thought and I hope that the haps be might not end up inside the courtroom but of course he did you are reporting was Pulled Apart in court everyday for 6-weeks.

I wonder how you prepared to give evidence in this case is not an awful.

Lot you can do too.

Evidence supports, I think the main thing is that I just thought they'd felt was that I needed to get up there be truthful and that's what I did.

It was actually really have a lift up there and evidence because I had listens to Noel Clarke's lawyers making allegations about our reporting for over a month by the evidence and I was very glad to be able to get up there and speak truthfully about the work that we did which I'm enormously proud of you, but I don't like to talk a bit more stress that are Witnesses have been through you know 26 people came to court to give evidence the Guardian and none of those people have to do that.

They're not employed by The Guardian we didn't for sometimes and I've spoken to you since the toilet included who told me you know they're having panic attacks on the way to court.

It was enormously stressful for them and they did this.

Play recent stories start with because we knew that this was a truthful account of what has happened every thought it was important in the public interest to make it known you also alluded and some of your sense that I libel laws are deeply in need of reform so clearly the experience of going through this has prompted broader thoughts on how the media interacts with the what do you mean when you said it needs reform I've been in 4 years.

It takes to mount a successful libel defence is incredibly time consuming.

It is hugely expensive incredibly stressful for everyone and that's fine or editor Mount atlas defence because she wanted to stand by the sound up for public interest journalism and it's really brave move but the cost of this is so high and I really feel that we need to look at our libel laws, I would welcome.

Looking at a libel laws, because what we have right now is a situation, where is very difficult at this time of stories and even if you do publish them and they are very welcome operating both actual and reported still happen and not every editor has to resource for the appetite go through an extensive libel suit and what that means is the stories that need to be told I'm not told and I really feel that if we want to have a more fair and equal society where women are able to speak up about their experiences and speak to you sleep as if need be not worried at this and I can for you as a litigation.

We do need to look at our libel laws.

That was sharing colour from the Guardian in a statement.

Noel Clarke describe the judgement as disappointed in said I've never claimed to be perfect but I'm not the person described in these articles he also maintains that the decision does not change the fact that inaccuracies were published speak to Clive Coleman

Formally the BBC legal correspondent now senior partner at Malton welcome back onto the media show if we could start right at the beginning.

What does libel mean means that you're seeing because someone has said or written something about you.

That is full sun true and you want that corrected so it comes in forms that comes in the form of defamation which is what the no clark.ace was because that's a permanent form of libel in other words.

It's printed and it remains where as there's also which is an in permanent form often something that is said and yeah, it's a very very old cause of action in in the law for someone who sues for like.

What do they need to achieve in court in order for the outcome to go their way well, it's really interesting because I'm like almost every other civil claim there's

A reverse burden of Proof so if I sue you in libel and I alleged that you've said something false about me then you the defendant have to prove that it was true the Guardians defensive in this case they had to one was that it was true and the other was that it was published in the public interest and those are both defences are available defendant who is sued in in labour, but it is it is unusual that is the case but all of the bonus if you like and you could you could hear some of the interview with Sharon there's a lot of stress on the defendant side because they have particularly if it's a newspaper a publisher.

They really have to my everything that they have done their processes that journalism and they have to convince the court there what they've said is true and that they've done it also the right way.

There are a couple of phrases.

Appear in a lot of the reporting around the story from Friday and I wanted to ask you to to explain them for us the first is that this judgement found that the meaning of each of the newspapers articles was substantially true so how does that phrase substantially true fit into the outcome ok? So they didn't quite prove that it was true Under The Defamation act.

There was a new defamation act in 2013 which was which was brought in put actually a higher bar in terms of the artichoke of frivolous definition action so claimants do have to show that they have suffered a serious harm, but in terms of the publisher there to show that what they printed was substantially true.

What does that mean? It means that the knob the gist of what was printed was true not every microelement not every word.

Completely true, but the gist the knob has to be completely true and that is the way the lorries friend and that's what the Guardian where able to prove very convincingly in this case on both to prove that it was true and what was published was in the public interest that was one phrase and you just use the second phrase that I was going to ask you about in the public interest.

How does the law to find what is or isn't in the public interest ok? I mean the old traditional answer to that is but it's not something that is simply interesting to the public it has to be an issue.

That is on public concern that is of interest if it has a significant effect on people's lives on the way, they they view certain issues, so that test is you know obviously for journalism.

That's that's a critical test and what was interesting about this case Rose is that the truth.

Was successful but even if it hadn't been the Guardian got home on the second test if you like the public interest test because the judge heard from Catherine final of The Guardian and various other people from the Guardian who are able to convince the court that they reasonably believed that these articles were in the public interest and the judge found resoundingly in the Guardians favour on that do you think this this ruling on Friday we'll have broader ramifications for how the media views libel laws.

I think it was a question have ramifications for the reporting of an issue of Public Concern and individual individuals who perpetrated you know whatever happens to be sexual harassment.

I think what it shows is the if you can show as a publisher that you have done everything right you've got.

Corroborate your Witnesses you have evidence that you kept careful notes.

You kept you know telephone conversations notes of meetings you given the person concerned the opportunity to respond and to comment then you know I think it's a lot of confidence that even if you don't succeed on truth actually you can still succeed that on the basis that this was in the plague interest and I think that's going to give a lot of confidence.

There's been a libel defamation is massively expensive horrendous expensive and publishes generally speaking with online advertising revenue they don't have the funds they wants did and it's a big thing to defend one of these and I think that this case will stand as a as a beacon that if you get it alright, if you have multiple complainants and that was critical to this case I'm 20 complaints then it's a very very brave person who.

The dice and tries to see you in defamation when you know there has been a meticulous journalistic investigation.

There are multiple witnesses and they're all saying something fairly all the operating one another same similar things we was appreciate you coming on.

Thank you very much indeed.

That's Clive Coleman senior partner at Malton PR now.

Let's talk about artificial intelligence because a number of publications including wired and Business Insider have withdrawn articles by what they thought was a freelance journalist called Margot in a seems that these articles may have been written by AI press Gazette broke the story last week.

They were tipped off to it by one editor who's suspicions for raised by one of Margot pictures that is Jacob Freddie editor of dispatch and see how the media studio hi Jacob so what happened what arrived and email I assume.

Send text to dispatches in new independent online magazine that publishes too long form report it features a week with a focus on quirky forgotten neglected community and delicious can go about that a dispatched item media.com but a few weeks ago when I received a peculiar pitch in my locksmith freelance writer called margaux, Blanchard which it was a perfect pitch for dispatch.

It was about a decommissioned mining town in Colorado called gravemente where Blanchard claimed thousands of dead bodies would be brought into the town by train where an emergency worker and Peace officers good practise training on them in case of a disaster is a crazy story and to be honest.

I thought we might have a little sleep here but

I know as always doesn't want to do some research and I couldn't find any reference to gravemente online and a query this with Blanchard who came back with this very strange still to masturbate did sound like it's written by AI of course you would not be able to find it.

This is a new story which is more and more people use AI for their email example you could receive an email that has been written by AI but it's still coming from a human being this is true.

Increasingly as an editor of receiving more pictures written by AI detail I always describe an hour an email as like drinking and non-alcoholic beer it looks like it is in a similar bottle, but it doesn't taste the same thing about the speech which may be slightly different from those other AI written pictures is that it was entirely fabricated in a gravemente did not.

Fundamental and the nearest missiles you know really got the bottom of that was by Googling Blanchard herself and and I found a number of articles that should read before hand should know other profile.

She didn't have anything like that and one of his articles she mentioned by why did been taken down Yes speaking of why they have withdrawn the article that last week.

They said they believe you are schools likely written by AI we should say it's not been confirmed these articles are written by AI but it sounds like you suspect that what you were being sent was being generated by AI strongest team nap from the town of the email and and her strange behaviour since the other articles which appeared on the number of outlets including Business Insider where she fabricated sources in case studies and to be honest.

I think that you know as members of the media is important to reflect on why?

Movies ai-driven pictures and adjuvant stories across the landscape and I think this is entirely reading of a media landscape.

That's been gutted out and prioritises content over storytelling.

Thank you very much for coming to speak to it sitting next to you is Dr Glenda Cooper head of journalism at city, st.

George's University of London and someone who along with the colleagues teachers aspiring journalist how to navigate the media environment that you've just been describing.

I'm sure your students receive Waze use AI in their lives.

Would you tell them to use a eye when preparing a story pitch? I think you've had an exercise of AI and journalism from the Fascination story that's cupboard, but I suppose from our point of view is AI is part of journalism now and there's no good things that I can do in journalism.

You know it's very good at to summarising.

Can use it to analyse data but I suppose the important thing and what is coming out from the story that we just been talking about is it the things that I can't do you know it can't go to to do I witness reporting like margaux Blanchard with claiming to do it can't interview no grieving parent or get a Whistleblower to trust and so I think what it is as that.

We're trying to teach you know the next generation of Genesis where you do you say I and where you don't but to be clear is that your message for students that they should expect prospective employers journalistic employers to want a ice skills for this is now part of the tool kit that the journalist coming the media market should have City we're talking to editors all the time about what you want in the young journalist and there was still kind of Munch Scream face when they say.

Cycling know how important it is and they are looking for those skills and but there are often very unwilling to engage themselves in what they really wants is regards.

I I I mean I think it's not as interesting.

Why do you think that I think that's scared of it.

I mean I think No One Quite knows what is going on and I think it's really important here is we getting young journalist who are very AI sa VII unite can use all the tools likes of datawrapper likes Google Trends and HN or whatever and the Editors and often is trained and that's what I think you know editors have to have an open mind they have to be really clear what the discussion around AI is so that they know what it is.

That's their demanding from the reporters in The Newsroom what's acceptable Jacob if someone came to you.

Maybe one of the Glens of students and said I'm interested in a gig with they need to have AI skills not necessarily, but I think the point is it.

Is the AI is a fact it's here and there's no point being Luddite about it did but I think it was going to said the things that can fly to the skills, but it can't write or do you report in for you? And I'm interested, then you will also speak to journalists about the fat their stories need to have a particular market or a particular audience that they're trying to reach but what's what do you tell them about what audience is one and whether they care whether something has been written entirely or partially by AI interesting.

Isn't it? Because if you ask if you look at the research when you there was some research on at city.

St.

George's about about this about whether people liked AI written stories when they were shown by human written stories and AI stories and they said they do you know there is too many numbers.

You know bad word choices.

You know not very good description in the AI

But yeah having said that you know everyone is looking at something like the Independent will have you know bulletin summaries which are more popular than the equivalent human written stories to think about what kind of difference Genesis do they want they want the quick fix but they also want that in-depth story that is only be done by journey.

That has done that.

I wasn't reporting and has been there on the ground finally as you go forward with the spach Jacob I misread what you think your audience wants.

Do you think it'll be a fronted if it felt that one of your articles have been partially written by AI rather than a human.

I think one of the reasons why I received the new independent publications like dispatches because people are fed up with reading and a ice lock and cheap off heads and scrambled rehash news reports and then there's a real space for Boots in the grand reportage.

Thank you very much indeed that Dr Grande Cooper head of journalism at city.

St.

George's University of London and Jake of Freddy editor of the Spanish but next we are going to talk about football as I'm sure most of you listening are well aware the new football season is here fans are of course keeping a very close eye on their team's early form.

We are keeping very close eye on the media and on the Media deals that are being done.

We're going to talk about the Premier League in a moment with the help of a former Premier League referee turned columnist in the Studio with me but I'll start by looking at a TV deals has been getting a lot of attention particularly in the trade press to Youtube channels have got some of the live broadcast rights to show the German Bundesliga 2 UK viewers.

The channels are the overlap co-founded by Gary Neville and that's football one of several Youtube channels set up by Mark Goodrich goldbridge.

Oh, you're so slow back a little bit too much, but I'm a w a w a goal that's the style of Mark goldbridge in Action on one of his watchalong that was last Friday night many of you will have seen them is the greatest day is done deals with the BBC Sky Sports and prime video for its UK rights as well as those two YouTube channels understand.

What's happening there with the help of minimoto head of Sport Media sponsorship and consumer research a analysis and also here in there in the media show studio, what did you think when you heard about that deal? I know it's really interesting.

I think the Bundesliga have the ability in the UK to experiment with the meteorite steals, they have their Sky deal which is lockdown, so that's guaranteed revenue that they getting from Sky but there is a finite amount of time on Sky

Something like the Bundesliga I think our estimates are that Skies paying about 8 million lb season for them and so you have all these are the matches and it's like how what else can we do to stand out and actually free-to-air is one of the things you can do there's not that much sport on free to air especially with the big for what a big five European leagues and so they kinda cover the whole spectrum with you.

Got BBC which is catering a little bit more to your traditional sport fans if you're touching the linear platforms that and then you got Mark goldbridge.

Which is a bit more that fan first side of it and then the is the overlap because you've got Gary Neville you got Roy Keane who are commentators, so I kind of covering that hole spectrum in a single night which is it's quite unique so I wonder how it happened with reference to YouTube is it your understanding that the Bundesliga talk to YouTube and YouTube when these two channels could be good or do you think Bundesliga when direct to the two YouTube channels?

Be surprised if YouTube were involved in it because you know if they will I'm sure I would have liked to have been stayed at least in the right direction, but I would imagine you she was a bit of a facilitator and I think a lot of the other leaves going to be looking at this really closely just to understand.

How well it performs but presumably and I don't mean to be rude about the Bundesliga this type of deal is only possible because the value of the rights that the Youtube channels have picked up.

Not that hi.

Yeah, that's that's very true like they would never obviously never Say Never but I don't think they would be going to do anything like this in their home Market because obviously the value of the Bundesliga in Germany is going to be significantly higher there looking to build that audience outside of Germany right and so they can afford to be about that someone at the Premier League as well with it's global footprint will probably be a little bit more cautious, but it's not just Europe that were seeing this is so there's a there's a channel in Brazil Kaza TV

It is huge.

They got the rights to the men's World Cup for the next Edition and they had the 2022 edition as well, so these types of deals are beginning to happen more and more and it's about rights holders or like these competitions taking the live matches to wear some of the younger audiences are the Premier League to ask you about that as well of course most people are concerned about the form of the teams on the media, so we're focused on what is the Premier League doing that it hasn't done before in terms of the media offer to the fans in the UK and elsewhere, what would you pick out as being the more significant dimensions of the number of games on Sky they gone up to 215 matches per season which is huge and you now have the ability to choose what you want to watch as well so far and have a lot more choice now the season in the deals.

You're going to see things like half-time interviews with the players substitute interviews on the touchline after the players have been allowed to cool down close-up of goal celebrations and then all.

Dressing room footage as well and all of this is quite the NFL to me just going to say it's quite American right so that a lot of these features are people used to seeing in nfl.sky has been bought by comcast recently and they are now your own by an American entity so I wonder if that kind of play the little bit of a role when they were negotiating with the Premier League because they know that a lot of that type of access as well stay with us.

Just bringing the person sitting next to you Graham Scott who is the telegraph telegraph new column is football columnist and you have a an unusual background for a performer Premier League referee, which you did for a good while you're welcome to the program and I'm not before we get into the details of the season.

I'm sure people just do nothing ok.

So how did you go from? I think you're a journalist before then became a referee and now you're going back to The Economist tell us that as a referee who you say you have another job until you reach the Premier League so I was doing both for a long time.

And my first 4 years in the Premier League are still working as a journalist that up to be a full-time rough and I've gone back into what I consider to be my True Home if I'm honest the to complement each other and tested for the management point of view the schools use on the field of isolated skills you can use in the workplace and then they fell off each other very well and in terms of Media interaction have many years in the middle of the corner of the Premier League what are your reflections on how the media handles referees tickets Mrs so many tricks so I probably fails on these test day 1 of reporter training.

You're told man bites.

Dog is a story in a way that dog bites man.

Isn't losing manager blames referees masqueraders news which is really bizarre thing then you have a straightforward old-fashioned journalistic fairness argument fairness and balance and I can't think of many groups in society.

Who?

Which about dealers referees we just get pilloried lambasted complained about criticised repeatedly without being given the opportunity to have our so is that because I'll be people listening to us now thinking love to hear from the referees and they made a decision.

We don't agree with love to have them.

Go on the media straight after the game and explain it all but it doesn't happen.

That's not by accident know and I think let's get back.

So if I just referee the game and you want to interview me.

There's only one reason and because you think I made a mistake players get interviewed after just scored a goal and and they're being told How Great Thou will great goal that I want to play the wonderful you are referees don't get that experience we don't get called in for post match interview to be told we wouldn't be to reset you had a great game now.

What do you think it was that cause you to be so brilliant was never happen only ever be about mistakes.

That's going to be a negative experience and part of that will also mistakes.

I just about decisions which is not necessarily mistakes.

Just as a different play labour.

The considered contentious controversial unlikely errors and the referee can only ever say will based on the single view based on where I was standing not lying about what's about to happen next that was the view I had that is never going to be a huge amount of explanation be on that what we do something about what they want to do a bit more in-depth, but maybe a little bit later and that's what I'm hoping to do for the Telegraph and I've started to do for the Telegraph is to run explain processes that go through it was a bit more understanding of such as well mistakes made the door.

So why are you taking personal responsibility buy them away 1.2 of your 3 points but but that's by the Telegraph want to do this but the reason restaurant speak after the games is because the league doesn't allow them to speak directly to the media.

I assume and so if you want this more in-depth understanding of what to Doin' it.

Can't come down to individuals as they retire such as you and go back into journalism sure he's got to be a position in the league is a halt eggs.

There are opportunities for that potentially but all I can say.

Having done that having done the job for 10-years Stepping off the field and trying to explain what happened in the fifth minute and 15th of May in the 73rd minute can we would be extremely challenging you're still in the moment.

You're still in motion decisions and I don't think it will be necessary in two things people might think you might be worth trying you never know but I can't see it on my third point is actually isn't there is a missed opportunity here to learn more about how that refereeing process works and I think there is an interest and at the moment there doesn't seem to be the interest in the media to go underneath the the Bold facts of reference say that because I can think of various features.

I've seen over the years where it's been there brought in a referee weather is Graham Poll or other referees and they've gone well.

There was a big controversial penalty last night.

He is the rest angle on it.

It doesn't feel like the media is never done that it's in bits in patches systematic and certainly a problem that match the day Mrs a big trip for me.

I think in the only ever asks players.

You and doesn't go to someone who's got that reference experienced that background that knowledge to explain it much more detail around our decision is reached what the process is are and why maybe the referee in the VR reach the minimum.

Are you listening to this this come down to the league really doesn't it? And how it wants to see referees as a media asset or not as the case may be either the league or the organisation for referees as well like a madman that they would also have a say in whether or not they want to do this.

I guess it part of the features out this year is about enhancing the game and like bringing fans closer to it.

Do they want to enjoy themselves in more controversy post the game of things like that possibly not possible, but if there's more and more found demand for it over the next few years.

I can't I can see them being a bit more open to it both of your agency.

I've got to ask you Graham how does the heat you get via social media.

Media when you taking a decision on the field compare with writing a column that proves a little controversial in some way, this is harder.

I think coz football is football and people you know the fans are going to take a view against about your decisions, but this is about my writing about my ability to convey an argument and that feels more challenging in some ways, but thank you very much indeed for coming in that's Graham Scott who is economist with sport and we also heard from minimoto head of Sport Media rights at a analysis now, let's transport.

You somewhere completely different a mother or a new town in Borneo is building a bed for the night.

Best mattress of fresh leaves a young son is getting to work on his own bank in the course is The Undertaker the sound of the David Attenborough narration and this is from the BBC1 series parenthood.

It's a five-part series that explores how animals raise their young? It was filmed across 20 countries in 6 continents the final episode is this Sunday in series producer and director Jeff Wilson from the production company silverback films is with this job.

Thanks for joining us on the media show goodness I've got questions, but when you sit down and you get a commission on a series like this.

How do you decide which animals which countries to focus on because he does say you have an awful lot of options.

Thank you very much for having me.

Yes, you're right.

We do have an awful lot of options.

We are fortunate enough to have a really fantastic team of researchers.

You go out into the world and talk to all of the scientist that we know and love and have worked in the past and start picking apart the real nuggets of what we can find in the Natural World and what will feel fresh in the new stories that exist particularly under the umbrella of parenthood we found in this particular example is that there's a very very rich seam of stories that really haven't made it to screen before and when you're considering those stories.

Would you grade you know the one animal or one country is particularly difficult to film vs.

Another.

I think we will try to get the balance right between the the animals that we know the audience love like elephants and lions and is an orangutan that you just heard and the perhaps the less the less Media friendly animals in know the spiders and the and the frogs and we try and make sure that we get the right story in Balamory

Each of the scripts is designed to try and take you through from the moment of birth through to a moment of independence rediscovering the gamma of parenthood challenges and then when we got those on paper.

It's really a risk analysis we will try and figure out.

How likely we are to film the sequence how.likely.are to fail.

What are the how much is going to cost us and then we put that all together in a big sort of spreadsheet and try and work out exactly what the best matrix for it for a film with B but it is very complex and and as with all films.

Are we making the Natural World protagonist and never read The Script so it's constantly and and because you were focusing on the relationship between a parent and infant presumably the risk of interrupting as sensitive moment for these animals was particularly high in this filming absolutely.

I think one of the things I'm in normal.

In the series the amount of field craft that goes into trying to film these relationships.

It's about trying to be observational obviously trying to get within a range where a lenses can capture the behaviour but also being mindful of of like you mentioned probably the most fragile relationship in the Natural World and of course as naturalist we never overstepped that Mark and so that it just pure field craft and have all the teams working across all of the Continents and I think that comes front and centre as to what we hold most dear you have an assessment that you were in the moment where I say you're very close to getting the shop that you want, but it would require going another 20 m Close her but you know that potentially could interrupt the animals and Away that you wouldn't want to do Justice that moment.

What do you have a process that you would go through there's no processes such because every animal is different you know you if you're filming so often or polar bears for example you may bump into a 1-day approach.

Absolutely loves being filmed in the next day.

You can bump into a polar bear with you.

So like humans they each they're very individual istick however.

I think any great filmmaker any great wildlife filmmaker.

Will tell you that as soon as the wildlife starts behaving in in accordance to your presence as in the presence is changing their behaviour then overstepped the Mark and so we're always mindful of that and that's why it takes such a long time for us to to fill these sequences in these theories is because a lot of what we do is just pure observation even before we turn the camera on it's where the boundaries like doing that takes time and Resources or to put it in another way money.

Yes this series was commissioned by the BBC but do you think that public service courses are in a financial position to fund the cost of these ambitious series vs.

The kind of budgets you might get from streamers.

I I think yes, I think we you know the the Investment of time and effort is is always worth the money that whether it's a public service broadcaster Laura Strimmer and I think what we find is that you can't actually prepare for go the field time that it takes and so regardless of who you are.

You still need to invest time and that's always equivalent to money one last question for you Jeff you've been making programmes of this up for some time has what you make changed as the style of natural history changed you do things differently now for a audiences and you might have done 20 years ago.

I think we're in a market where we are competing very heavily with other forms of entertainment and I think natural history has to stand up to that and be as entertaining as it can I think we also should hold our heads proud that what we do is we we go out into the world and we bring back wondering all and show just how beautiful the Natural World is and so.

Competing in an entertainment space those and then I will tell you that there's more magic and more wondering the world, then we could ever ever put into a script and so they still plenty to be told out.

There has not got the wonder isn't there know that you're filming it no doubt you are but are you having to edit it package it up in a way that's different.

No, I think actually what's happened is the Continuum of that has natural history unit has expanded.

So when are we seeing some programs that Focus more heavily on fast cutting and and and difference Tarzan the racing we're also seeing the traditional still survive.

I think that's a healthy thing as far as I'm concerned them all natural history on television the better in it how it's package is just about trying to get different audiences involved, but thank you very much for joining is Jeff Jeff Wilson is the producer and director of parotid the final episode is on Sunday on BBC one.

You can find all of the other episodes on BBC iPlayer I could be mention you can always Auto 5 all episodes of the me.

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