Read this: Super Mario is 40, Russia Whatsapp ban, Murdoch succession, The media v The Judiciary?

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Hi, I'm Katie razzall, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome on today's programme as Russia Crackdown on WhatsApp pushes Estate approved superwrap will look at what that means for freedom of speech exploring and bruising and very public battle inside Rupert Murdoch Media Empire

Assist Sam lachlan takes control and Super Mario is 40 with a look at the game that revolutionised the industry we're going to talk about how the media has the judiciary returning to this in part because of how the migrant hotel Story has been reported in recent weeks a couple of weeks back the court of Appeal upheld the use of the Bell Hotel Epping for housing asylum seekers some of the coverage focused on one of the judges background the sun reported that a judge you overturn the Epping migrant hotel ruling has been revealed as the former head of a socialist think tank linked to labour that was a reference to judge Lord Justice Bean well responding to this then Lord Chancellor Shabana it was one thing to criticize a decision, but it is another thing entirely to bring a judge's integrity into question to Robert Buckland Justice secretary in.

Johnson's conservative government, he's also practising barrister and Frances gives legal editor at the times for nearly two decades and has covered the cause for over 40 years welcome to you both the Robert if we start you and the Bell Hotel coverage the Sun headline.

Do you think that overstepped the Mark or was it relevant background and your opinion judges? Let's not forget you not have the luxury of being able to respond to media.

They're very strict guidelines that have been in the last month or so, they are constrained from commenting in the public computer suggesting motivational bias on the part of the hotel.

That was in the very distant past there are other senior judges.

I don't think it isn't relevant to their current station function to make any connection between the two and this case that cleans decided on landing strip it back and look at the judgement.

This was planning law case nothing or nothing that something was dealing with the question before it as course.

I've done throughout the ages British Justice works extremely well.

That's remember that and let's stop trying to bring politics into and yes, you have talked to previously that judges being pulled into the political Arena and you said that media scrutiny is intensifying as a result just unpacked that thought for me.

Will you?

Get me one more cases of dementia cases in the brexit judges are being called into and I know they don't want to be and inevitably it's tempting four commentators another super pops artist from the process should be to start talking about this evening in this country.

I don't have to just selected on the basis of the present staff staff reserve like the United States when the electron and owning in on that side of things now it appears.

No pressure increasing being made to judges and see you just show me about the safety of any more judges.

In particular family cases and security to be in a position, where are not Castle we're going to see many many times from coming to the bench because of this sorted pressure know that's the sort of society.

We want to live in I'm going very well as the media show is is medias role in that pressure and I was going to talk to you about one of the high-profile cases, you'll know it when I love Lucy Connolly the woman convicted of inciting racial hatred in the aftermath of the Southport killing the Telegraph columnist Allison Pearson said the law was no longer just an ass.

It was a whole stable of brain donkeys in horse hair wigs and he's judges of cruelty and bias that.

In a case of the evidence, but I didn't think it was talking to you.

Delete a comment on that stop shining the sayings of and divisiveness frankly and just take its course this was not two contestants while she was saying that and I just wanted to raise the former colleague of yours about Michael Gove he has a podcast with the genus Madeline Grant call quite right and early this week on that to Madeline Grant said tax-paying residents of local area have fewer rights than migrants and then Michael Gove rejoin the fact that lawyers stated in black and white that the human rights of asylum seekers drop the judgement of the local community and its democratic representatives that is talismanic talismanic and not in a good way.

I suppose you know many people would argue.

This is all fair comment.

This is what the media does it it talks about issues that.

Why can't you in one of them might be decisions made by judges? It's absolutely fine to be criticised and beyond the rest.

They can be criticised disagreement and question the rationale we can save them no one needs to be famous.

That's fine where things go wrong ad hominem or personal attacks on the political bias of Judges which they cannot answer back that is where things going on time and time again.

We see that and that's why that's where I'm thinking you should display in stone is absolutely personal tax sir Robert Buckland Lord Chancellor from Manchester central.

Thank you so much indeed and apologies for the slightly dubious quality points in the interview, but we did think it was important to keep going because it was very poor.

What's Robert Buckland had to say well Francis Gibbons that she was legal editor of the times for nearly two decades Francis I just wondered during the course of your time as legal editor at the Times whether you a shift in how the media describe the judiciary new recent history to the famous enemies that people headline when judges with Hillary is over a brexit ruling and before that Bernard Levin in the times in the early 70s had a scathing attack on the Justice and it is true to say that lately the attacks have increased and in the last 12-months have Risen to properly and you.

And that's both attacks on rulings and attacks person attacks because I think the media has a roll and write in a judgement as can anybody else but when it comes to attacking judges for the politics or aspects of their personal life that does tend to undermine confidence in the judicial personal attacks will be mentioned the brexit years letter example take the example of when the Supreme Court ruled the Boris Johnson's shutdown of Parliament was unlawful on the Sunset it was a paradise by political judges.

Does that which side of the line does that fall well?

Dangerous step is a very fine line and as we increasingly look at judges or as commentators.

Look at the Politics of the judiciary then the pressure the pressure increases for a politicised judiciary where you would want to know just politics before there before you know where you are.

You would have an American style system where judges are cross-examined read watch listen to journalism about the judiciary and off and it'll be grappling and therefore to be with incredibly complex subjects.

Do you believe that journalist covering the lorries have the necessary specialist know how to do so in a way the both informs the reader and on occasion shares in opinion as well, but do you think that the standard of explanation?

The coverage is to a standard that you think is is appropriate space generally is given to the detail although the details.

They just not going to read it and judges in the summaries of of what they actually trying to say and what they're doing and then we do have more advising on all aspects of the trial which we don't have before and that's all extremely helpful, but one other faction all this which has changed dramatically obviously the last 10 years.

Social media and it's not just traditional newspaper Legacy newspaper and their comments and how they report on these things the big difference.

Is there anyone anyone can go and report on these and that's where a lot of the criticism of Judges comes from have to be such as we her to Robert Buckland expressing his overall faith in the standard of the judiciary.

I just wondered whether you feel the media has a responsibility to help maintain public trust in the courts or whether that goes beyond its duties and that it's only duties after reporting to hold to account but they have a duty to maintain the rule of law or the other than by being fair and accurate that is what you are doing I mean.

At the moment in the attacks is a feeling of a couple in the same class are in some kind of Conspiracy this is thinking about it and you know that populism manifest itself on both sides of the other political spectrum when you think about increased hostility from sections of the media towards the judiciary.

Do you associate with the right or the left or do you actually see it coming from a variety of sources of Justice which show did judge?

Angles I think what's important is that inaccurate reporting yes that can be corrected by the judiciary and and should be and it can be something like this stand for should be resisted by politicians.

I think I did politicians and the media to have a duty not to undermine the importance of having thank you very much for your time that Frances Gibb who was legal editor of the times for nearly two decades next on the media show let's talk about Russia because it's rolling out a new state approved national Messenger app.

It's called Max and at the same time as rolling this out.

It's also restricting access.

Such as WhatsApp and telegram millions of Russians communicate securely on these type of encrypted platforms, but since the side of September all devices brought in Russia have this Max app pre-installed let's learn more about this over hartog is politico Europe Russia reporter over thanks for helping us on this story.

Let's start from the very beginning.

What is Max would we recognise it looks similar to other messaging apps that we use absolutely that is the point you would absolutely recognise Max because it's very much like my chat or if you happen to know telegram so for now.

It's just a messenger isn't it's a messaging app the goal is for it to one Day become an all-in-one and a super app that would also integrate government services banking services commercial services and in that sentence very much.

It would be excuse me it would be very much like China's WeChat

Super act like that president in June issue of increasing we want this national messenger and very shortly after the project was given to BK and DK is Russia's version of Facebook and controlled is being run by people very close to the Kremlin including one of Putin's closest allies and next thing you know the speed has just been incredible next thing you know this September mandatory to install Maps on all new phones and not just that to add to that on top of that a lot of reference especially civil servants are being instructed.

If not to install Max on their old films on the existing time you mentioned though.

There are some differences between Max another Messenger app.

So, what are those? Yes, that is a crucial.

Because the Kremlin very much says that Max is like any other apps, but it's a national messenger insults away of messaging in a patriotic in a safe and secure way, but actually much less secure than for example WhatsApp because messages are not into and encrypted which is a fancy way of saying that they can being intercepted by Alex for example by law enforcement or the government install with Max its privacy policy basically openly States bad at the Apple handover data to the Russian government which I imagine it has unlimited access which I imagine might put some people off now the Russian authorities can insist that this app is on new phones, but it can't force people to send messages on it, so what we know about how widely used Max's to Max this company that I was talking about before Max already has.

Million users which doesn't sound like that much considering Russia has a population of 143 million people and WhatsApp continues to be the most popular messenger, so what has about 98 million users but still you just had the governors camp cause people to install it.

It's certainly can the government has maths teachers are being pressured to installing people working in hospitals local governments so with the stayed on your side.

You can actually boost those numbers numbers very quickly and the people I spoken to internet experts independence internet experts and my dad save that the goal is to get all Russians onto the app onto my excuse me and at some point block all the alternatives WhatsApp telegram.

Thank you very much indeed.

About that fascinating has ever hartog a journalist with Disco Europe in the past 3 weeks another country has tried.

Not just a restricted as an absolute to ban them entirely Facebook even though I'm on 26 social media platforms the Nepalese government prohibited last week after protests against corruption spark by the band in which at least 29 people so far have died the government you turned and yesterday the Nepalese Prime Minister resigned well Dr Diana Prakash is a research fellow at Chatham House welcome.

They are just burst.

Why did the Nepalese government want these 26 social media platforms? Thanks very much, so the wide range of social Media apps the answer is supposedly given a week to register with the Nepalese government and after many apps failed to do so they are removed basically at the stroke of Midnight few days ago and this is following a social media bill passed by Nepal in February which allows the government to.

Question social media platforms that include content with the seniors as defamatory as indecent or that can conclude that include misleading or harm information which may threaten the lives of people in Nepal or the Nepalese government know some of the lines on a list of quite unexpected on there.

Yeah, it's very unexpected.

I think we were used to seeing that's like WhatsApp and Facebook in the in the mellow, but seeing you know Pinterest or LinkedIn or read it is very surprising what discord which is traditionally gaming out that's actually what are many reasons to the protest but certainly the idea that the government would take away out for the typically used for leisure for enjoyment and don't have a political kind of bread to them is humiliating and I think reflects the government's quite authoritarian approach to this but are you talking about them? Then use for leisure but of course presumably they also being used.

Anti-corruption protests are they so what happened with that because all the apps were removed and not available in Nepal the primary up that was used because of the did the did register in time was TiK ToK and it's via this app that many young people in Nepal banded together showed images of protest and you can still go on tiktok now and see how many tiktoks that reflect on under protest and show what's happening in the Streets of Nepal and of course was going on in Nepal is a moving story but more broadly does the social media buy their reflective global trend in government cracking down on international social media companies under your expertise is in India in fact.

Yes absolutely certain people in Nepal me of taking some inspiration from neighbouring countries including India including Bangladesh including Pakistan we're not only have there been great movements against governments, but they're all.

Social media bands but of course this is the wider trend that were seeing not only the use of social media on a very very great scale but attempt to moderate them which may overstepped the Mark and into the realm of censorship and you know this is a global problem.

It's not just to south Asian problem, and we certainly seen as a client alongside that of freedom in the last 14 years in a global context who holds the power here is it governments or is it social media platforms is anything a really important thing to maintain here is that while governments do overstepped the Mark and moving to censorship as a certainly been the case in Nepal tech companies themselves can't be perceived to be the arbiter good values are not themselves democratic.

You know it's not as though meta necessarily has holes these values of three numbers pressure and close to their chest either.

What happens if that tech companies have gone bigger and bigger said there? You know almost governmental and they have an enormous amount of power and wealth which allows them to very easily challenge especially small late, so what happens when cultural sensitivities perhaps rub up against tech companies and I think in many cases like in India which is the second largest internet place in the world.

There's a kind of codependent relationship in the Tech companies need India with such a huge market, but India also need some need these tech companies which provide you know integral support and communication from most of the country.

So how is India responding because they are bringing in this knew.it Laurent that had my tea lost since the year 2000 but in the last few years due to power deep below has certainly changed and become a lot more draconian so probably the most relevant section 2 vs section 69 which allows

Government to request tech companies to take down content which they seem to be defamatory or which was threatens the integrity and the security of India obviously words like integrity and security of quite find quite subjective it certainly means that in times of conflict like we've seen this year with Pakistan and you know the Indian government has been eager to to ask companies to take down contour and section 79 which is more recently introduced allowed to accompany.

You know if they're companies refuse to do this.

They no longer have w cold immunity in the law and Moore in the last few months.

We've seen the most tech companies have agreed to take down users or take down posts as requested by the Indian government OX4 Muniz Twitter has had a few legal battle goes on Dr Jennifer from Callan house.

Thank you very much for coming on the program but now.

Some of you will recognise that bad of causes the theme tune to succession the epic HBO drama about the hoovering for control of a media Empire now.

There's been a real life succession development in the family who story inspired the series The Murdoch's with the news that Rupert Murdoch's older son has won control of the news group which here in the UK owns the times and Sun newspaper as well Clare Atkinson is media reporter and founder of the media mix newsletter.

She's also writing a biography every murder welcome Claire back to the media show let's start then it's quite good starts off quite complicated and it gets a bit more simple but let's start at the beginning of this succession planning.

We know the family trust was set up in 1999 after Rupert Murdoch's divorced from his second wife and mother of three of his children.

Who did that include and what did it entitle them to?

What does the setback of for a moment that the trust began its existence because Rupert's dad Keith and try to a mass all these newspaper assets and when he passed away Rupert have lost his birthright was left with the Swan Mirror newspaper of the Adelaide news and so he wanted to make sure that he had all of the company throughout it's existence the trust was created the Murdoch family trust was created in its version 19 version after he divorced from his second wife animal dog and decided she wouldn't take as much money as she was entitled to but wanted the kids are for kids about time to be protected to have control of the family company.

So yes, there are lots of players in this and people will have heard these names before children lachlan, Elizabeth James and crew.

But just how much involvement have they had in the Murdoch Media Empire over the years and also those are the four names in the trust correct.

Yes, there's obviously in neutral which are include some different folks, but we will get onto that so yes, we have Prudence who did an internship at the news of the world and she was a diary newspapers, but as essentially not ever really Express much interest in being part of the company then by birth age.

We have Elizabeth who was once that had a sky.

She's been very interested in a lot of things and so she had a company called shine which he sold back to that company now.

She has a company called Sister which made Chernobyl miniseries that perhaps the listeners a familiar with and then we have James who basically he was.

CEO of Fox at one point he also you know where the satellite operations in Asia here and the newspaper business in the UK then he came to the US became the leader of the company and step-down fighting editorial disagreements, then he left the board and that's really you know one of the reasons why this trust has been difficult to manage because the there's some family infighting and you know what we've seen is a two-year battle to resolve it.

Yes, because this was about the fact that Rupert Murdoch and lachlan the oldest son tried to change the terms of that's so that trust gave as I understand it all of those for children equal shares in the company and this was all about what happened after Rupert Murdoch died, but what happened.

What to do in that when they were taking out this trying to change the terms of family trust and what happened in the court proceedings so I think perhaps sources can empathise with the situation a lot of people have elderly parents and they think about what's going to happen when they die who's going to get the money who's going to get the house and so what I wanted to do is to make sure there was one of the company that was a threat that perhaps James would want to change the nature of what the company was all about because of political reasons and really solidify lachlan as the leader of the company going forward after he passed away and what is a change is irreversible and up in the Bader the probate commissioner rule against what kind of Rupert so the three kids had Canada upper hand and what we've seen is.

You know when they go station over money James and Express an interest in selling out, but when you have a trust like this controlling a company like this or two companies which are worth the dollars.

You can't have everybody selling out at the same time because it would we can that family control and that's what this is really all about is Rupert of lachlan.

Maintain control and selling out to the three kids who each will now receive around a billion dollars with Katie and the studio so a complex back Katie alluded to do this in the end boiled down to the fact that three of the children did have a price and what's the price was met the deal got done.

Yeah, absolutely you know as I said raising 3 billion dollars is an easy.

That's a lot of money.

If there's going to be suffering wealth funds come in as a secondary offering not to get too technical but you know.

Basically have to raise the money they sell the shares on the market the kids get the proceeds.

They getting around 80% of I think what they had wanted because the problem for lock and Rupert has been the fact that fox shares have been doing very well with President Trump in power that has raised Fox News ratings the share price in there for me it more expensive to pay out the three children one last question on the three children who will now be departing at the business.

It could be presented as a defeat in that.

They haven't got control of the family business, but presumably there's another way of looking at this which is that they wanted out and they got quite close to the price that they were putting against yeah absolutely I mean I think it's you know in some way is a sad ending because these kids worked in the in the business.

They grew up in the business and now you know that the press release.

Can I said you can't buy shares in the company and you know effectively said don't let the door hit you on the way out and So It Feels Like despite the money.

There is still a fracture in the in the company and fracture in the family and so you know I guess the end is that 3 people became even bigger billionaires and they already were but will be having Thanksgiving together.

I don't think so yes Claire just one last question from the UK perspective.

What impact do you think this will have on the future direction of Fox News in particular of the UK title for some the times and and others you know the the fact that the trust gets me to the little bit.

I think it goes from 40 to around 30% put some pressure on the lachlan.

He's a chair of News Corporation which owns all those newspapers you just started.

And so I guess that the fear I mean the positive for lock and Rupert is there now have complete control.

There's a clear path to doing more in a potentially putting the boxing and musical back together, but on the flip side.

There is the worry that you know you could have an activist come in and that family shareholding is a little bit weaker Claire I can send thank you also clear that Claire Atkinson Media mix newsletter Media reporter.

Thank you know we've had a bit more music.

They normally do on the media show her the success and succession theme music a few minutes ago and now I suspect most of you know what that is that the unmistakable sound the theme tune from Super Mario Brothers the Iconic Nintendo game that is celebrating its 40th anniversary this weekend well to take us to its history and its Legacy Kevin McDonough

Is videogame editor at the Guardian and she's also writing a forthcoming book called Super Nintendo the game-changing company that unlock the power of play can say welcome again to the media show just take us back then to the very beginning who created Super Mario Brothers so Mario is the creation of a guy who wanted to be comic record his name is shigeru miyamoto and he was hard straight out of college buy a video game company called Nintendo in Curacao and Super Mario Bros was not his first hit his first.

It was a Donkey Kong which was massively massively popular in arcades in the early 1980s and he got given the opportunity to design his own game from scratch and the thing that made Mario very special at the time is that was a game created by a person with an Ifor character a lot of games that time where static single screen things like Pac-Man or Paul you know you move around on on one screen or succession.

Mario feel like a world you moved left to right and it had sky it had and had the grand and it had underwater as well.

So it was a much more ambitious game than anything that number for what's the times of Fame to have Donkey Kong and Mario to your credit to your name, but he tells about Mario's.

What is iconic look? What does he look for describing and why he the way does Mario for me? He's like kind of spirit of play He's a small chubby guy and his blue dungarees and his Red Cap but the interesting thing is that in the 1980s everyone who is making games was working in extreme technical limitations, so the reason he has a moustache and hat is because she gave me and also had to figure out a way to make a recognisable character in a square of 16 by 16 pixels and that's the best.

They could come up with all the time.

What about the names where do they get their name? See you know Super Mario Luigi where do these names come from? It's not a Japanese

Itself in America and abroad as well as in Japan it was already very successful, so Mario's named after Nintendo of America's old landlord, Mario segale, he used to turn up and loudly demand rent and the story made it to Nintendo's headquarters in Japan wear miyamoto.

Just like to send the name so that's why Mario is called Mario and you told your books called that talks about it being a game-changing company.

How revolutionary was it at the time of game design and indeed over his body is what has been the games cultural impact games that are honest from the early days of games still hold up today and still are well designed enough and understand one after it to still be fun to play Mario's first level 11 is still there is like a 10 of game design universities today like anybody who knows anything about game design will be taught.

How that level teachers you had a play within 10 seconds.

You know that mushrooms make you beg you don't want him and all you have to do is.

But the Mario's Lexus I think bigger than that.

I think he's become a talisman of playfulness and joy for several Generations at this point of people and those of us who grew up with Mario first time when I play with our kids like with my children and he's become this really this connection back to the sort of like tumbling joy of toddlerhood really hand of Childhood and I think the he's become a picture on a par with anything from Disney or other media in terms of how much he resonates immediately with with the people who love him because he was alluding to the fact that you're right book all about Nintendo I just wondered how easy that is to do is it a company that's open to people having a look inside and writing a book about it in a word definitely not have been inside Nintendo it's not really part of Japanese business culture to brag about your achievements and talk about how great you are so it's very hard to interview people like she Jeremy moto and the other creatives at Nintendo

What does how you getting on? How are you getting on? Have you got enough for the book? It's all done coming out in February in Britain the proof so done, but it's very secretive company and I hope that the book will people things about her Nintendo games were made that they but they don't already know and I think that Nintendo is a really beloved company for a four really good reasons and there are lots of different Media organisations.

Take organised as you might have done something very successful 40 years ago with that doesn't necessarily translate into 6s today.

So how is Super Mario and how intendo evolved are they still as bad as they were in the game came out Nintendo's always been known for innovation.

So it looks so mad ideas over the course of its of its history something that everyone will remember the Nintendo Wii where you used to play tennis in play bowling so come out with a bad idea like that sometimes it hurts sometimes.

It doesn't Nintendo very very successful at the moment.

It's so kind of Apex of success with its Nintendo switch to and the Nintendo switches.

That is for people who have encountered the switch and the switch to the switch and switch Nintendo is 2 most recent consoles both still home to Mario still home to lots of Nintendo games that are there are very well beloved, but one of the keys to Nintendo successes that people like shigeru miyamoto and take us to Tesco who is the other designer of Mario they still work there are working with young people who are no carry Mario forward.

So if you got the people who created the character created the world's and established does Rosa games design they're still there passing down their knowledge and that something that very very few other companies have I just wanna quickly kaiser if you are ranking the popularity of Nintendo games now Super Mario still be up there competing with the others Superman vs.

One of its all-time Classics it's going to be at the top five pressure at least good to speak to you.

Thank you very much indeed coming on that video games editor at The Guardian a couple of minutes that we have left to you and I will message you yesterday morning when both the BBC director-general and the BBC chair appearing before.

Parliamentary culture media and sport select committee.

I thought we should talk about it for a couple of minutes.

There's quite a lot to take in there was a man.

This is a regular session they do it every six months and the latest was yesterday's you say but what it made me think as you know we have spent quite a lot of this summer talking about the so-called BBC scandal, so whether that's the broadcasting anti-semitic comments glass and real the station in the MasterChef presenters of the issues surrounding the documentaries and one remembers one that was pulled off to transmission when it emerge the child and Rachel was the son of Hamas official and the other that never ran forecast on Channel 4 instead we on the media shape with talking about that a lot clearly Tim David director-general on Samir shot the chair of the BBC have also spent a lot of time talking about it because watching that became clear that they got pretty sure footed at apologising and explaining and then turning the conversation to how important the BBC is in national life and we saw that in that in the committee.

And as such a supposed to agree.

We didn't learn anything particularly new on the BBC's positions on those scandals because they have spoken about them publicly before people listening to the program here not know things at the small developments of happened.

I feel that they had a lot of this before so whether that's people have already just been dismissed as a result of bad behaviour that they calling out that behave here at the BBC Weather see it one of the things that was new with it.

They going to put a delay on high risk program.

So live music programs that have been broadcast at Glastonbury if they deem at high risk.

It won't be going out live.

I just quickly mentioned that the coach search.

I need some Andy also appeared before the committee and she mentioned her concerns about Nigel Farage and his GB news show.

Yes, she did she bought this is obviously something we also discussed in the media.

Show she said that she didn't think Nigel Farage leader of reform UK should be presenting on TV news and she called it political polemic presented as

That this sort of thing means people lose trust in news and we know.com looking at it Lisa Nandy said she strongly supports Ofcom tightening the rules at the moment politicians can be based on program.

Put on news programs to be news readers or news interviews, but they're looking at whether they should make it the politicians can't be used on any programs in those sorts of rolls, so we'll see what happens Consulting right now released a statement and you caused by the way we did also get in touch with GB news to see if they have any response to what Lisa Nandy is said but we didn't hear back from them before we went on here.

That is I'm afraid all we have got time for on the media show today.

Thank you all so much for your company but from Roseanne for me.

It's goodbye by in homes Across Britain children and grandchildren a discovering stories about their families in the Second World War I never noticed it before.

What's a battered old suitcase the other story of World War II on the Asian France against Japan in bed already and pounding pounding pounding.

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