Read this: TV rights and the Boat Race, conspiracy theories in the media ecosystem, Larry Ellison, Newspaper legal challenge to Ref

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Hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome this week with my content creators teaming up with broadcasters can sometimes make for a difficult working relationship going to profile tech billionaire Larry Ellison as he steps further.

Mediaworld will look at the roots that conspiracy theories take through the media ecosystem and the BBC has lost the broadcast rights to the Boat Race 2 Channel 4 will get into that too but I want to start by updating the understory that we covered a few weeks back.

You may remember we spoke to Nathalie Fay editor of the Nottinghamshire post and it's fine arm Nottinghamshire live reform.uk runs the county council and it did stop speaking to their reporters sending the press releases or inviting them to event the leader of the council Mick Barton explain his position for the BBC at the time.

I've got no problem was speaking to any journalist and then I got an issue with a not live at the minute putting a post at my personal now towards me what you look like.

Cos it keeps it away from Andrew but I think they need to sit around the table themselves and maybe come and apologise and see if we can have a working forward it needs.

It's more professional from their way.

I think moving forward if it is then maybe we can we can we address this but it needs to be a better way work in a more professional publicly-funded and accountable elected official yeah sure you have to engage with your local Media engaging with all be there but you're not you're planning and if they want to speak to on the Cancer I'm sorry that's wrong.

I've not been the council from speaking to him.

We're just not sending them any press releases at the minute because everything was saying to it and negative when somebody is already positive well Nathalie Fay editor of Notts post and Nottinghamshire live is back with us on the media show because Natalie there been a number of developments and first of all we've seen some was in the band has been partially lifted is that right? Yeah, that is right.

So obviously as part of our team.

We've got three BBC funded local democracy reporters and we have managed to get the ban lift.

Supporters of the contracts really important tells me got several partners.

We see the cake copy to but you know this isn't the end of the battle that that's not ultimately what we want the BBC like bloxy Awards are still assessing and reporting what goes on in meetings, but we want a whole team journalist to be able to interact with elected members of the council.

They should be able to do and for them to be held accountable so the battle is not quite over yet.

You're calling a bad or make Barton Court it but evidently you think it's a little more than eight if because you know how to take legal action on this issue.

Tell us why you decide to do that and exactly what you're going to do.

Yeah, that's right.

We sent them a legal letter because we think this is a disposal it's probably the quickest way to end it really cleanly stalemate.

You heard that wants to apologise, but I journalism has.

Completely accurate and fair with not distorted any facts and we reported what's gone on the council and ask all the questions.

We should have done so we don't feel we have to apologise, but equally this unprecedented so we went to the market down and we feel we can do that to everyone but then maybe some people listening thinking well.

This is the elected leader of this Council decides to provide some information to some parts of the present some information to other parts of the press.

That's his prerogative and that's quite right.

You know we're fully we accept them members cannot speak to us if they want to obviously that would be really awful if they decide to do that and it's not had a relationship should be but I think the problem with this is it still Dover into like the civil servants the counter side of things that we've been taken off press release distribution list and uninvited the publicly funded Council events.

Are we talking about New Roads new schools, newpark.

You're not invited to those anymore.

That's the bit we really trying to get overturned at the moment and the other side is more relationship kind of thing and we'll I think everyone's sitting around here will appreciate people comment it's not good, but that is something they could do but are you confident the through whichever means you choose it is possible to force a council to hide certain information to all journalist because for example if you look at the local government Ombudsman do you think it would have the power to insist upon that I think I believe that decision and I can't say what the local government Ombudsman is going to do that something.

We might be further down the line at the moment.

We're looking at things at local government regulations.

So how they make decision if I do that proper.

We think they didn't they breach the councillors code of conduct so decision should be made in the public interest which clearly this isn't and also article 10 of the

Chr which gives a right to freedom of expression and right to receive and impart information, so they sort of things were looking out at the moment.

I'm in really what we want to do dogs get on with asking questions on behalf of council tax payers and the council has responsibility to do that.

We're all paying for it, so we need to join us for that provides functions to find out what's going on.

This is completely irrational decision.

I appreciate you updating us on this story perhaps you can come back on again once you see how you're legal and go that's Nathalie Fay editor of The Notts post.

We have asked the County Council press office for response to these latest developments and they declined to send us a response that the Oxford and Cambridge Boat Race is changing broadcasters, and this is a big deal.

It's been on the BBC Four decades, but from next year.

It's going to be on.

For and while growing as a sport doesn't pull in TV audiences all year round.

I think it's fair to say the boat race definitely gets an audience this year's 2025 boat race attracted an audience of 2.82 million viewers on the BBC that made it the most watched sporting event in the UK across free-to-air and pay TV channels on that weekend in questions stand this decision in a moment will speak to an executive at Channel 4 that first of all here in the media show studio is Siobhan Cassidy chair of the boat race committee hi Siobhan thanks for being with us.

This is a seismic decision, when did you realise it might happen with alright and the same for all rights holders near the point where you come to re negotiate your contract and we looked at the table and we've gone with the one that's best for us and so that sort of based on the commercial terms and also bit more broadly and on what channel for Zanussi as I was going to bring to the boat race as you say.

Numbers and actually but we still want to reach new audiences and we feel we can do that with you of course when you go into the oceans you don't know how they're going to go but the negotiations have gone in One Direction for decades and this particular sporting event so was there a moment where you realise that either Channel 4 was very serious or the BBC perhaps was not quite as committed as it had been previously I think we would absolutely right to say the BBC have done a fantastic job over nearly 100 years and it's been a fantastic partner, but it was just time for change and we really pleased to have done that and I'm really positive move I think for the the BBC told us the BBC be proud to broadcast the boat race over many years are decision not to continue reflect the difficult choices.

We need to make to ensure we deliver the best value for audiences with the money that we have does that mean they withdrew from the bidding process or that they were outbid by Channel 4.

I think they had they're off on the table and we would need some comparison so yeah.

People listening wondering how this process works is it a single bed from anyone who's interested in getting the right with the process and do yourself facilitate it or do you use a third party to facilitate the bidding process know that something that we do ourselves we work very closely we have done with the BBC so it's been conversations for a while then with other broadcast as well.

So you know that's very normal for everyone in this kind of position to do that an organisation that channel for his bidding to become the new broadcaster.

Is it something about money to a degree but do they have to tell you what they're going to do how much detail do they have to give you before you sign up and think ok will change partners here.

I think I hear from people.

It's all part of a conversation of where they see they're taking it.

Where would like to go and that sort of came across with really Enthusiasm from them around the options they've got there and having to use that digital space as well.

So where we're going to reach new audiences where they are and it's changed the landscape of Una Linea TV show.

The option to have those things are represented really well, who is watching the boat race who you trying to reach are we done some research for a couple of years ago and it's really interesting as a Corsa Sport is the core of it, but actually people watch the boat racer interested in the British tradition the history of the heritage of the event.

It's a great day out.

It's ok siz, London to has actually a much broader appeal than one might think it's beyond the sports itself and as you say you know it's a sunshine the Light On Sports we feel that's a real privileged position to be in to open that door for people to follow more running Elsewhere and the Andrews from Channel 4.

I must mention you're a former boat race competitor.

What are your memories of the media when you were competing well? I have to say was very fortunate.

I did the women's boat race in 1995 the last century and actually we did our race at Henley so though couple of weeks before the men's boat race the time and subsequently remember the BBC Brothers boat race the tide went well.

Pete themselves involved in an actually at the time.

There was a BBC crew came out so we were very fortunate for always that year to have a little bit of footage.

So that everyone we didn't need yeah.

Very proud of one.

Thank you very much for coming in and telling you about this new arrangement let's understand.

It's further Peter Andrew so you just deluded to his head of Sport at Channel 4 Pete welcome to the to the media show this been on your radar for a while.

Yeah absolutely I've been any any sporting event city iconic British event that is really popular as Siobhan said you know the date is really has a really broad audience.

It's iconically British it Showcases London so yeah, it's been on our radar all the time.

I mean I did work on it at the BBC I've been at Channel 4 six and a half years.

We look at this the whole time so yeah really really delighted today to be able to announce it and Channel 4 always prides itself on doing things a little differently so what will we be getting that we have?

What's on the BBC well indeed? Yes, we are all together different.

I think it's probably a bit too early to be telling you everything giving you everything we're going to be doing everything but you did people give something you know the great thing about this is it's a 5-year partnership.

So I think you know it'll be very much and evolution of the event.

I think the difference will be clear over the 5-years.

I think we want to have a look at that.

There's a great state that happens on the tideway.

We may be looking at some point doing some sort of para version of a certain races on the day, but I think you know we starting 2026 but we're going all the way to 2029 is the 200/230 year of the boat race so I think it over those 5-years.

I think it's too lots of different things.

I was reading earlier that chanelle is the the headline sponsor of this event and I'm interested when you are putting media coverage of a one-off event such as this and a sponsor is clearly a big part of the financial equation around the event to what degree would have broadcaster and

The organisers of the event and the sponsors all sit in the same room and plan it out together.

Well.

I think you know as we said this is a partnership and I think you know we will of course be talking to the sponsor and of course the boat race company about you know new ideas what we can bring to it.

How we present the event but I think you know for us to be honest.

It's all about the audience.

You know we look to serve the audience of Channel 4 will have Crafts in March will have the boat racing April the women's FA Cup Final in May the British Grand Prix live in July something that is a national event for a public service broadcaster is usually valuable with really excited and when was so delighted that the company showing the faith in us to broadcast this fantastic day outside you are about it.

You may know that you may know that on the media.

We talk a lot about business models within the media and this will be costing Channel 4 awful lot of money for a couple of races, which don't laugh.

That long is it between 15 and 20 minutes? How does that pay you back when you're broadcasting to relatively short races? It's costing you presume you hundreds of thousands of pounds.

If not, how does that pay you back with the answers in the data? I so we sell advertising and for our salespeople to be able to go out and as I said those Stakes in the ground that we've got over the Year sell adverts to what we know is going to be a bigger audience and a broad audience.

It's really valuable.

I think the business model absolutely works when you have a sporting proposition.

That is so popular business case is easy, please.

If not before come back on just after next year's boat race and we can see how you got on with the first one.

Thank you very much and you're going to be for coming onto tennis about that so the boat moving from the BBC to Channel 4 after many many decades on the BBC thanks.

Just phoned Cassidy and to Pete Matthews now.

We can spend a few minutes talking about the Tech billionaire.

Earlier this month briefly became the world's richest man and along with his son David has been linked for the range of Media deals including in connection with tiktok HBO and CNN learn a little bit more about him with the help of James Warrington the Telegraph media and telecoms editor who just texted me here in the media show studio James that start therefore coming and let's start right from the beginning.

Where did Larry Ellison make his money well, that's interesting.

He might be one of the richest people.

You've never heard of he's one of the Old Guard of Silicon Valley 81 years old.

He made his fortune with oracle which is the software company he founded in 1977 not necessarily a household name specially over here with a very important player in films such as cloud computing data storage services plumbing behind the Internet if you like and that's becoming more importantly these days with AI and the amount of data, but that's going to use so oracle's market value is increased.

And with it as he referenced and Larry Ellison 12th a huge amount of money.

He's an important figure, but so is his son David Ellison tell us about him.

So his son David runs production studio called sky dance that he set up in 2006 is behind a few big Productions the recent Top Gun remake for example Bank Road largely by father Larry and through Sky dance.

He seems to be launching onto me of an acquisition spree so paramount with the one that happened a few weeks ago.

That's a big Hollywood production company lots of Studios also owns the CBS channel MTV and Channel 5 in the UK and now already only took a few weeks after completing that deal that he's got his eyes on Warner Discovery even bigger us company which is behind the Harry Potter franchise that owns CNN Maroons the HBO studio so lots of acquisitions.

How many businesses they want those businesses be successful potentially to expand and we can see these potential acquisitions through that prism, but if there's something else going on here.

Why is Larry Ellison particular focus on the medion now in a way that she hasn't been in decades.

Previously well.

That's a really interesting question here.

I mean there's one way of looking at it which is this is opportunistic the US Media landscape and broadcasting lots of people say it is right for consolidation.

You need the scale to compete with the likes of Netflix and Disney does he just see an opportunity at the moment and more cynical view might be that the political motivation at play here and that's what I think a lot of people are concerned about is he closing up to Donald Trump is he trying to shift the US Media landscape to the right that something would have you been a political operator through his career as I recall found its initial success was he was he political as well.

He's been something of a pragmatist.

I think it's fair to say previously back Bill Clinton he's

Close to Tony Blair and has given hundreds of millions of pounds to Tony Blair's non-profit Institute for more recently.

He's aligned himself with trump trump has spoken very funny off my side in the white house, so there are signs that maybe he's trying to get closer to the trump Administration from David Ellison Larry Ellison son who told reporters after the murder of Sky dancing paramount.

I don't want to politicise this company.

We want to be in the business of speaking to everybody so while they are insisting.

They don't want to bloody size.

How do we explain the fact that lot are seeing the simplest school terms with a number of things that have happened already in the run-up to the manager paramount settled a 60 million lawsuit with Donald Trump despite the fact.

It is widely viewed by Louise is not having much for case so so next would say that might have been attempts to get the deal through regulators, when Stephen Colbert

Absolutely tonight when Stephen Colbert the late night host then said it describe it is a big fat bride.

He was probably taken off air and soon as it was anything episode correct and since the deal there have been a number of other changes as well that brought him a new Ombudsman whose role.

It's a newly created role, who's supposed to deal with any criticisms of coverage and his name is an alloy of Donald Trump and then also made some changes the editing program so as you rightly point out tonight if there's any political motivations here but that I think it is what people who are Critical of this appointment to what about tiktok? We've we follow the Saga of tiktok in the US with some Trust here on the media show where do the elephants fit into that so Alison has been named as part of a Consortium of wealthy buyers who are going to if everything goes as planned.

The US operations of tiktok alongside Rupert Murdoch some other big-name figures from silicon Silicon Valley or in there as well, so that is another sign some people would suggest that he's getting his great a Grip On Us media and interestingly obviously tiktok server much younger audience so if you were to have control or past partial control of tea, but also having control of traditional studio and he's really got a broad base across demographics and hope you can help me with James obviously Larry ellison's been very very rich for a very long time but oracle's position as AI becomes more and more important is understand it underpinning him being particularly well for you at the moment.

That's correct the app.

So it was a string of recent deals of the companies that brought it back into the four and Larry Ellison owns 41% of oracle and Oracle water in relation to AI why is it so crucial its data storage largely and then

I'm $5000000 building data centres in the UK so it's to do with that massive use of data appreciated that James Warrington media and telecoms editor at the Telegraph well with Larry Ellison a little longer because his name has also appeared in coverage of the UK government digital ID plans which were announced last week that because Larry Ellison has donated millions to Tony Institute for global change as James has a leading to that Institute is very keen on the idea of digital ID and ellisons company oracle may seek to become one of the company's tasked with delivering a digital left.

There's any the Tony Blair Institute says it's donors do not set its policy agenda, and there is no suggestion any rules or laws have been broken with these donations or with the decoration donations, but there are connections between Larry Ellison Tony Blair and digital ID and these connections have started to appear in broader conspiracy theories about elite seeking.

Control of the general population and we want to understand how fringe ideas can sometimes escape the corners of the internet where they begin their lives and make their way into mainstream tube A30 sweeties a cultural historian and presenter of three thinking on BBC Radio 4 that is here with us the people you haven't seen these broader theories that have been shared in the few days.

Just explain how Larry Ellison digital ID and everything else fits into them the darts.

Do you mean join the dots between all these little if you were in points and fragments well Larry Ellison has the financial relationship with the Tony Blair institute of donated 257 million to it and so this this great speculation about what is interested and you might get some kind of contract to produce the digital ID system that's been rooted so we can look at that and it was a good piece in the New Statesman recently analysing that and trying to put.

Out there in the ecosystem of the new media weirder things happen and it's very well established in conspiracy culture that the digital ID is a kind of trojan horse for a kind of digital cage that the shadowy forces that really control these people are trying to Institute it's all wrapped up with conspiracy theories about 15-minutes city.

Is this idea that that somehow a digital ID would stop us leaving our houses at certain time or buying certain things now this all exist in the wacky world, but there are places in the regulated Media where the apertures where this sleeps in and I'm talking I think principally about about GB GB news this week.

Just launched in America they were discussing digital IDS is main presenter there at Beverley Turner is great activist on this subject interviewed fellow GB

Neil Oliver on this subject and said a lot of very strange things that they will contain all our health information of finances you can reference what you said and done in the and stop you putting fuel in your car buyer steak in a supermarket, but the broader point hear that it is a bigger valid when a big apology idea is announced by the government to interrogated to ask questions about that and the reality is having covered the story myself last week is a lot of questions about digital ID we don't know exactly how it's going to work and the government by its own admission would say more detail will follow what I'm looking for it with regards to your mentioning joining the dots will you join the dots in terms of this subject matter but help us join the dots with regards to the media how we see formation moving from one place on the internet to another place on the media to another place.

How do we document that given her fluid and ethereal being very fluid and it's it's it's

Fragmented and they figures involved in this journalist so kind of pseudo journalistic figures who flipped between these and might appear in the regulated space might be sitting on home on Youtube channels or with their podcast and so the ecology is so mixed that there's an awful lot of traffic between the really far out spaces the David I kind of world and spaces.

We would consider much more respectable that actually come under the Ofcom umbrella and these ideas in that they move around and they discussed and become talking points some very weird megsy things you sometimes engage with people sharing theories which is not always entirely based in available evidence shall we say how do you find experience particularly if someone who are the people you're engaging with will know works for big absolutely your organisation so tricky, isn't it?

Because in Everton you become part of the Conspiracy interview a ride called Naomi wolf on the BBC free thinking who who's I spotted an error in her work.

She is now become a fully fledged conspiracy theories and goes on Steve bannon's war room to tell the world that Bill Gates paid me to do that so I think any of us to work for the BBC can get wrapped up inside the narrative this narrative can consume anything and anyone and so you know when you try and gauge with these people.

I think you know he regret engaging.

No, I don't know if it's important work.

I think we're on the Frontline of this right.

Well.

I'm asking the questions about we but in terms of what you're David is on the Frontline of this.

This is about the border between fantasy and reality and the policing of that border you and I both engaged in that work if I engage with these people online.

I I think I think it's been shown I mean.

Actually, but we study the mockery is often quite a good way to deal with it, but actually I think at the individual level when you are talking to people about what they're reading and the the ideas that they're getting hold of that that is a good idea.

You had to kind of question where they're getting this information from that is wait for the moment.

Thank you very much indeed.

So if you're listening may have seen on Saturday President Trump shared and apparently AI generated video promotion conspiracy theory known as med beds in the video the AI generated President Trump says every American will soon receive their own medbed card with it.

You'll have access to a new hospitals led by the top doctors in the nation equipped with the most advanced technology in the world and the video has since been deleted let's pick up some of the issues it raises there with Dr Crippen senior lecturer Birkbeck University of London specialist in digital culture doctor to pick first of all four people listening.

You haven't encountered the medbed conspiracy.

I confess I was one of those until the few days ago, please.

Please tell us more yeah sure I mean it's part of and you can go way back to internet aliens.

The akashic record alternative has that kind of context but it really picked up Steam when the cue and I'll conspiracy theory started picking it up and if you're not busy day for people who are not a where is this idea that there is a couple of a leap the rules in the media who are originally the idea was that running a cover child sex trafficking ring and then expanded to a general notion that they are hiding the truth from ordinary people and a Donald Trump stubborn and reveal all and ring about 10 oclock this store more all their crimes will be revealed so medbed started picking up speed during the covid pandemic when there is this idea that you are liberal elite are somehow keeping this advanced technology for more people and if you were allowed to access them you could buy in one of his beds and through sort of.

Mechanics bio energy frequencies the statistical science all your pain and illnesses could be healed and I guess I'm interested to ask you the same question I was Matthew sweet which is how you plot how something of that nature makes its way from corners of the internet towards the media in at the moment was the white house as well.

Yeah, I mean it's difficult cos you could do the wonder history and talk like a cache crackers in that your Suffolk Society founded the 19th century is the history of snake oil salesman, and then they're so interesting but perhaps for another movie is picking up on SyFy films like The Lyceum Prometheus for these made pods for advanced studies can be conducted automatically but because during the covid pandemic people are online a lot are confused about what's happening and then some influence of step into the mix and say actually that you know there's the secret to.

Solve your problems and they're trying to hide it from us, so some of it starts on camera obscura message, but like 4chan groups on telegram.

That are lightly or not at all regulated moderated, but it's actually really on Facebook and YouTube and there's loads still Facebook groups people announcing that bad people selling that people predicting will be revealed through a lot of this happens on mainstream social media but with president apparently making reference to it in the now deleted video was this the first high-profile example of it of it breaking through with a very high level politician or very high profile Media figure of the latest iteration of this.

It's not the first example of q and I'm breaking through the high-profile politician or something like Ash Patel who is the director of the FBI who wrote the poem theme children's book inside it with a Cunard slogan, but this is the first time specifically med beds have been spoken about by someone and I can't get on your profile and trump right informative way of tapping into his core base because he

Hero of the queue on story he is the one who's going to bring about the storm reveal that the evil deeds of evildoers and bring about a kind of messianic.

You know utopia a time when you felt like both on the media show and more broadly to and I was being reference a lot.

It's not that is not referenced at all anymore, but it feels like it's profile has dropped a little is my perception correct, but it and if that still exists is it still primarily focused on the core 2 and on theory or is it evolved into something else it absolutely still exist and I think part of the reason is disgust myself and it's because it's become so so I mean the core story about a cable can be adapted to any number of different narratives and stories, so not bad.

Just one of these idea that Hillary Clinton is involved in secret crimes another the idea that covid is part of a great reset where there's a plan to indeed introduced to July the control people's everyday lives back down at their ability to move about the city.

The difficulty of Kieran is that it becomes so diffusion almost becomes harder than name but in a way it become part of the grammar of Conservative politics in America and influences like damn good girl someone who is Warren annexe.

He is a queue non-informative Hitman interview on Fox News as a journalist, so there's a kind of you know my washing up it happens to pick up on your point with Matthew sweet what we herein describe there by Dr pink hair is really but this isn't a new phenomenon anymore.

This is a very much established part of the information ecosystem in which we all lived importance in the age of these stories is one of their most.

That's what makes them perennial what happens as happened this week over fantasies that be presenting about the Fabian Society in relation to at the digital ID card system this in a Victorian thinktank.

Cos that started in 1884 and has been working every day to bring about social revolution in this country every general.

Returns to the same stories over and over again that kind of the credulous and the gullible and the people who think they kind solved what's really going on in the world always return to the same story the Fabian the Rothschilds the rockefellers these are ready made simple explanations for all the things they look like in the world, but thank you very much indeed this will be a subject will come back to you.

I'm sure it's Dr Matthew sweet and Dr Robert to pick her up if you listen to me last week.

You will have heard parts of a session that Katie unfortunately this week recorded at the Royal television Society festival in Cambridge last month it was the group of online content creators.

We're going to hear some more of this discussion now and in particular a section of the discussion that explored the interaction between creators and big organisations in a minute will hear from comedian shahbaz Ali and visual effects artist Brandon be the first of all Jason has our own YouTube channel, but she's also strategies to help creators build.

Businesses in Katie ask about her business model and which revenue stream give her the most creative control Audi days of my journey, and I think part of the reason is because I have full creative control like it's my membership.

I've completely built from the Ground Up right but on the integrity park in all of us being the membership.

It's because you and you can cancel whenever you want so for me that makes me feel good because I know that everyone who's in the membership.

Is there because they want to be there so it creates a really amazing environment and it helps me from me integrity, please.

I will say that on behalf of the thousands of craters.

We work with on a daily basis if you ask them this they would say brand partnerships, but they would always have the caviar that when they work with brands or with broadcasters, they want the creative control but they don't quite get it like they want.

They want to do more brand partnerships.

They want to work with you guys in the room, but they want the creative control and it's really they're not why is it difficult?

Trust I think I think there's it's a different industry the influencing greatest players.

It's still in its infancy is there for a lot of brands and broadcasters struggle to do the minds that shift to understand that the creators are actually bringing their own thing and their own important special sauce when it comes to the conversation the content that you're creating and you actually have to trust them on that day if you strip them from that you'd allow them to have a say in what you're creating then you end up losing what makes them so special and you end up missing out on the value that they bring you enjoy doing what I mean.

I love you guys the BBC but the hard videos of ever filmed in my life because it went at outside with this really great show love this show so happy to film like a video by before you started my audience and learn by the time you got to the 15 layers it went to Someone Somewhere did not like something and then get the other person like something then someone else like something by the time.

We got to my video.

I had a script know that but then why did you ask me to be me that you've asked me to come on board to be me but then you've gone and give me a script from I don't know Joe in an office North End score in the Creator knows what they do in the built-in audience because they know what they're doing leave him to it and obviously that be certain that you want to hit.

You don't want them completely going off track but you just trust them you say that because obviously that's something that you hear from probably lots of people in this room who have started out making more traditional program the traditional concept that leave us where the people who make their trust in you work with both creators and brands and what is the biggest challenge in terms of keeping those collaborations authentic if you like.

As a studio we have your of work with some incredible brands launching campaigns product releases all titles or you can just creating that long from YouTube content and I think the reason we done so well for that very unique understanding of the tone of voice of how to speak to audiences on digital.

I'm having is actually looks quite nice being to your last question as well, but it's so clear to us as creators.

We are working with brand partners or broadcasters and they're signing of budgets and they don't watch digital themselves.

You can read it in their briefs.

You can hear it in the feedback and we know that the feedback we getting goes directly against our best practises that sometimes we kind of feel like going handcuffs and we've got to do got to do so I think the most important thing is this I just creators create then got to the scale of where they are today and based off of the knowledge of their audience and how to speak to them that when we get the honour of working on campaigns as a studio and we.

Source creators to work with and build up campaigns and help them with strategy across from the top to the end of the campaign lifecycle.

We were just let the creators with very transparent hear your objectives.

This is what the brand wants to get out the video you tell us what to make come back to us with the idea so we not imposing on you what you need to create.

That's how the real magic happens, but listening to that with all the buses Ben Doyle director and co-founder of the creative production company after party Studios he works with many creators to make content for the likes of sky and the BBC so he's the right person to ask about this.

Hi Ben did any of that ring through absolutely I mean it's a tale As Old As Time I've been doing this for 10 years now.

I'm YouTube on a back in 2015 and we get there but he existed in while you're 2 million subscribers at the time now 4 million and they all these brands and broadcasters and lots of people want to make.

There was no man's land in between his progress being made of the big Media organisations getting better at knowing what to do with Talent which is flourishing in the digital world.

I think definitely get better definitely better than you know the last 10-years seen it he understands these craters are building there an audience season to tap into that you have to play on their chess board really I think that's the main thing over the years has always been this kind of like someone about trust and this idea that it's our platform and it says your commissioner or broadcast you're thinking to yourself.

I can't let this YouTuber run wild on my platform, but if I'm a YouTuber spraying they're going well.

I've got this morning and I know what they want to watch so it's kind of trying to it's been a slow kind of journey, but definitely more than ever.

I'm seeing more grease and opportunities for creative feel like it Bridges that wears it work.

Well.

Can you give us an example of where both sides of the equation of being happy channel 4.0.

I think is a

Channel 5 YouTube channel that is dedicated to consent for young audiences and they they make contact order terms.

They make content that the talent Wannabe and went upstairs and you can feel it in the shoot day because the greatest feel like they're being listened to and that the contents being built around them in their audiences.

Not any of my Channel 4 h and m organisation would do we still have some things will allow won't allow think things are good things.

That's not so convinced about yeah.

I mean I think that they're I think is a great example of how legal and Compliance need and get in the way of great content we do some really close to the white stuff that we were going over and I've you know everyone I feel like that across-the-board everyone really just want to make the best entertainment the most exciting thing that gets people so I think that when you look at a legal compliance team that look at this at face value and see what you're trying to do.

It's kind of necessary like it's looking like a chess board and thinking about.

How can I allow people to be their own person behind them to be that there's no point in hire in pain the talent to come along and then them being a different but himself cos the audience go who's that is putting the process which is often the most floors where the most friction the Edit yeah? I think like that.

There is always a bit where afterwards even come out of it and if you know your is the bit where the time so won't you know the two days are happening and then use it and I think sometimes if people used to make a more traditional content then.

That's the bit where you might have got something.

It's incredibly social first.

It's speaking to your audiences and you're starting to shape into start a job to try and see offers problems in advance to anticipate where the tensions might arise early in the middle of that was literally the reason to be like how do you sit in the middle of this thing I understand Both Worlds understand.

What are the mission of the mysteries of the Brand and also what the creators trying to do one last question if the content creators already got to.

Subscribers, why do they need these big Media organisations? Yeah, it's good question.

I think that broadcasters commissioners office scale right.

I think that's the bit if I'm if I'm around looking at his Talent I'm thinking huge audiences, but they you know you see what the sidemen going onto Netflix of inside that Netflix on offer a few scale to them, but they can't leave on their own channel so if we want to reach audiences in new ways and that's really have to offer that's the way I would do that for me then.

Thank you very much indeed Boyle director and co-founder of the creative production company after party Studios turn off final guest on this edition of the medium.

Thank you very much indeed for listening Katie is back with us next week till then bye bye hello.

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