Read this: Steve Rosenberg, Zanny Minton Beddoes, new Victoria Beckham documentary and the ethics of secret filming

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Hi, I'm Katie razzall, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome is racism and misogyny inside a London police station and I'm a Celebrity open their doors to the media this time it's Victoria Beckham but how much an excess of the documentary maker really getting and the editor of The Economist on why the magazines launching a new show but we're going to start with the BBC Russia editor Steve Rosenberg Steve is one of the band of foreign journalists still allowed to operate inside Putin's Russia he's been the eyes and ears of BBC audiences for years trying to understand the Ukraine war the Russian psyche, what makes the president take a great deal of patience ahead of his interactions with radomir Putin he is last December at the president's endivia conference.

4 hours, it was my turn to ask a question when Boris yeltsin resigned and did you power he told you take care of Russia but one of the significant losses suffered in your so-called special military operation in Ukraine and the Ukrainian troops now in kursk region and sanctions and high inflation.

Do you think you've taken care of Russia we all believe so I said yes.

Yes, I haven't just taken care of it.

I think we've pulled back from the edge of the Abyss well.

That was Steven Russia on delighted to say he's not in Moscow right now actually right here with me in the in the UK welcome to hear thank you.

Thank you for having me it is great to have you and I can let listeners into a secret that does not receive any more it won't be now which is the reason you're here is.

To receive the Prestigious Charles Wheeler award which is given every year to one person for that outstanding contribution to broadcast journalism so huge congratulations.

What was your reaction and how did you find out I was stunned I got an email and I mean it's a huge on at because Charles Wheeler is one of the most outstanding foreign Correspondents the BBC has ever had everything have integrity and authority and empathy so I mean it's it's amazing to be mentioned that the same sentences as child.

We'll have to get rid of Ward in his name is it something really special it's going to be quite a night there is a also certain symmetry.

I suppose this year as the award is named as you say after Charles Wheeler the BBC is amazing late for and he reported from the about the disintegrating Soviet Union a monster high profile foreign sends, but now there are very few Western journalists in Moscow and you are one of.

A question that I'm sure you'll get asked a lot is why do you think that you haven't like some of your colleagues? You haven't been thrown out that you are still allowed to operate their kid myself right it could and tomorrow.

I'm on a 3-month visa for every 3 months has to be renewed and we used to get one year this year, but I'm not the only one there are other journalists Sky News is still there German television the French and broadcasting in our native tongues to an outside of Russia if I was Broadcasting in Russian to a Russian audience inside Russia I think that will be different because the the priority of the Russian authorities.

I think is to make sure that Russians can't hear critical views inside the country and we had you that clip of you earlier questioning President Putin Etsy

Proposition that hasn't been compromised by the fact that you do ask him hard questions you put to him MI5 intelligence in Russian agents are carrying out arson and Sabotage the UK think there is some level of respect for you about your presence in the country, and how do you do you ever wonder you know how he personally Fusion Festival is no point me being there if I don't have the chance to ask these kind of questions.

I would love to know what Putin thinks about me.

I've absolutely no idea.

I get no telephone calls from the credit about things that I report on absolutely nothing.

There's no no feedback and I would like to think that there's some element and respect I'm gonna think I've been there for more than half my life mother 30 years in in Russia I speak Russian and I know I fell in love with Russia many years ago.

I'd like to think that they know that.

On the other hand, I think it's important to say what I see and an UN report the story as I see it, although it's increasingly difficult and I said you waiting for you said and that kept you waited 4 hours is that the longest you've had to wait to ask a question one thing working in Russia teaches you at the moment patients because you have something quite a long long time and you don't know if you're going to get a question and I think 4 hours 15-minutes that's that's a record and it was only towards the end of the press conference that he pointed at me and said OK I'll I'll take your question that he moved away and said but not now.

I took another question something and if she don't want to get it wrong.

So it's quite a bit of pressure if you're asking the question that you're live on Russian state television and Prescott so days before the press conference I can write up the question.

I've got to ask and rewriting the right and learn it and because you don't want to mess up and although plenty vacation.

Learnt that you've done all that work and then you don't get off.

There's no guarantee that you'll get a question, but you have to prepare for it and last time there were two I did ask a question and the Russian saw that and asked her that was very bizarre people started recognising me on the street this never happened.

You know people come up to me and asked for selfies and your shake my hand very interesting only wants in Britain someone come up to me and Cornwall a few years ago and said there who are the BBC in Russia people.

Can you recognise me? It's very strange and do you how often did he give access to them is one thing? I can't complain about we do get invitations from the Kremlin to attend various Crumlin events.

You know a Putin speech here in there.

Not too many press conferences, but they have been times when we've been invited along so in terms of access.

I can't really complain obviously I see you a lot.

We all see you a lot in my do you venture outside Moscow much.

Are you able to retry to absolutely bloody Vostok recently which was fascinating? You know that's an eat our journey away from Moscow it was interesting to hear what people are thinking and saying about the war in Ukraine so far away from Europe when you take a plane or train in Russia that flashes up on some system somewhere so they know you're going to town next or tell me why it's different with a car journey.

I think it's important to get out and still possible to get out but followed.

Are you able to travel independently? How does it work? We are able to travel independently very often we spot suspicious looking figures who we seem to be waiting for us in town x Auto

And we we we we noticed car registration plates them behind us but seems to pop up all the time so I think we do get follow it from time to time but no one can of fears without work.

I don't get that sense in Moscow that someone's looking over my shoulder all the time.

Do you think you'll ask questions of President Putin presumably be best thing you would hope for in that regard would be an actual proper sit down.

Do you do you ask for those? Do you think you'll never get one? I'd love the opportunity of recording a proper sentence with Valiant boots and from time to time we ask about that.

I managed to do that with Alexander lukashenko from Valerie twice.

He's a different political creature thing from Adam of gluten can sit there and answer any question 44 more than an hour.

Can you very very fast and he was very robust back was a brilliant interview.

I can't get the feeling that he actually enjoyed being put on the spot about all kinds of issues.

Yeah, and what about just before we bring in zanny Minton beddoes from The Economist how reporting from Russia has changed over the years and particularly since the wall if it's completely different now.

It's changed so much on so many levels for a star is much harder to get access to fill that factory is all different companies few people officials want to speak to us Reeves have a huge long list and the office of pundits and experts kind of subjects from Spalding economy politics and the last 3-years that list has got shorter and shorter and shorter and maybe there two names on it because some people have nervous about being associated with the BBC although we work legally in Russia and then the daily stress.

You don't know what's going to happen day from day today.

So on the other hand, I think it's important to still be there as long as it's safe to be to be there absolutely must be nice to be out sometimes.

I think it's important to get out.

Just stressing decompress uplighter timer to see family and win an award but because we going to carry on or discussion about Russia and and why did you want to sex with you but and with annexe gas Annie Minton beddoes who's editor and chief of The Economist welcomes Annie before we do that.

I just want to talk about the fact that The Economist is launching a new cast a video podcast called The Economist Insider which is a weekly show hosted by you with an additional show each week hosted by the magazines defence tectia politics and economics editor.

Why have you decided that your audience is want this? What what's the offer?

Hi Katie it's great to join you and first before I answer that I have to say congratulations to Steve so well deserved amazing reporting you've done for so long from from absolutely right what we are doing.

Yeah.

You're right.

It seems a big jump free newspaper.

There's no not having by lines to start a video show or series of video shows the reason we are do we want to give our subscribers and viewers a kind of sense of who we are and how we do what we do and we are going to the weekly show which will be hosted by me and my deputy editor at will bring in a couple of hours, but every week to chew over a big sort of topical fatty meat weak and really too kind of give a sense of the debates.

We have all to internally we don't always agree.

We not the kind of monolithic bo3 market ideologue this exactly the same thing I believe the same thing we will be talking to interesting people from around the world and next week.

So this week's rota.

Is about tariffs not an obvious one for us to do since we were founded to fight for 3 to 180 years ago, but we're going to be looking at the impact of Donald Trump's first 6-months on what we've learnt about them and you'll see clips of an interview half hour interview I did with promise to Mark Carney life.

We could we will play right after and it gives you a sense that we're talking to interesting people around the world movies and shake and giving a flavour of the Debate inside that we have and the expertise that we bring to bear on a topical issue on so it's kind of you.

No lifting the curtain a little bit on this.

You know famous anonymous non-violent newspaper you mention the number landing.

I was going to ask you about that because clearly that is one of the things that we know The Economist for it hasn't been shown about the in a particular stars and put in your names are obviously out there and now you are putting individuals front and centre in video content was there any push bike did it feel a little bit like you're losing some of the USP of the brand has one of them.

Taking onboard over the years of doing the show is that what we understand now is that news consumers particularly gen Z Trust individuals more than they do institutions and does this that time in your doing this so it's a good question if this is a progression for us because although the core economist.

It doesn't have badlands.

We've been in a developing podcast we're quite big and podcast now we develop from videos for a few years now in both of those mediums.

You see her economist journalist who makes you need to hear people so this is a completely new President is the next step of an Evolution and I think very it is true that many people do want to see who is who is doing the analysis who's doing the thinking who's doing writing.

Who are we but you need to meet people in the medium rare in and we have a whole bunch of subscribers that love reading us but we have a whole bunch of people who loves listening to us and increasingly in a younger generation people who like video to sew.

This is a natural progression the core economist.

There's a collective product the collective hivemind is still the same but I'm delighted that people get to know who does this this isn't it kind of witness program.

I'm really happy for people to know who my colleagues are there are brilliant you'll discover that they are there feisty argumentative brilliant and we're going to hopefully get to please watch and you said something very interesting recently one of many interesting things he says any But The Economist you said as a worldview that global is liberal and one that you said research is becoming unfashionable.

What did you mean by that is that actually good for business, but will definitely be coming last 10 years ago, which was when I started this job the basic economy market open societies globalisation was essentially the mainstream view.

It was always the kind of an establishment view and now it's a very unfashionable.

The highest character 1930s look what's happened to concerns about immigration around the world look what happened to interventions in in in the economy by the stage huge budget deficits everywhere all of the things the champion for you know of people are now kind of thinking twice about and some of that is that the world moves on and we should be evaluated as well in traffic doesn't mean that you're always believe exactly the same values, but I think the basic things that we stand for are really important free societies individual freedom Uno rule of law one of these things around the world are seriously being you no compromise then so I think the stuff that we stand for really matters now and it's it's not fashionable, but it's more important than ever and you mentioned a little Radio interview with Mark Carney the Canadian leader Steve of course.

Also knows about talking to world leaders as we were just disgusting but funny.

How much does steez experience reporting on Russia

Your approach to covering the country.

I know your cover story on your latest edition is called Russia test the west so I think exactly is this earlier in the show it's a different kind of country now.

It was before the invasion of Ukraine and the degree to which the autocracy has Crackdown Steve is very fortunate and it's amazing that but we have until you having their to the centre.

What's going on in Russia I think it's much much harder as my holiday for everyone to get a sense of what's really going on at we've been as you know Double Down on outstanding Ukraine and we've taken your got a brilliant corresponding Ukraine I've been there three times so I've seen that side of the the the wall.

I'm very keen to go to rush.

I haven't been able to I'm trying hard because you get a visa just explain I want me to go I have to get a reasonable access to reasonably seen your interview people do interviews for it to be a plausible thing to do is to have someone.

Right now, we don't know them are Russia and is a Russian is russian-born and so there is safety issues involved and he's now in London but we are very can you talk to people in Russia pretty much daily, so we have a finger on the Pulse of what's going on there, but I don't have a full time staff person there right now and when you put together a story like your cover story Russia tests the west which is what The Economist was a leader just give us an insight in how that article is put together so that's that's a very good for the kind of hivemind of expertise of the economy is coming together so we have outstanding events out of her.

He's often on many TV shows who knows more than anybody else much about what is in a going on in western militaries and Security Services he work together with our diplomatic editor is based in Washington are Europe added to various correspondence around.

All kind of fed into try and make sense of these seemingly disparate events.

You know the drone attacks that all the drone to hovering over over Western capitals the mid stone in airspace the you know the supply undersea cables being cut there's a whole series of things that happened in recent years and particularly in the last few weeks.

There was I thinking through a lot together and I asked the question.

I said we should do something that brings all of us together and that explains to our readers.

What is happening why it is happening and what the west should do about it, and that's what that project Chris Lockwood Europe editor wrote.

I think of very good leader kind of Making Sense for our subscribers was going on have brought this idea of hybrid warfare is why might be happening what regiment is doing why he is trying to test the worst and then how the wasted react and clearly any journalist trying to avoid gone anywhere you need sources, but particularly now on Russia

You need to speak to people inside the country Steve I bought you back in what for you are the main considerations when your assessing protecting your sources and whether people must be wary of speaking to ask Alice he mentioned that earlier.

It's going to protect us.

It's very difficult to develop sources now it in Russia people about speaking to a so basically I base my conclusions about what's happening in Russia on all kinds of things I read the Russian papers on a daily basis actually quite interesting because even though the media landscape is very controlled in Russia you get a bit more freedom in the newspapers to talk about the problems in the country is not interesting everyday the economic troubles in the country.

You get less severe on Russian state television is TV is so powerful in shaping public opinion within the newspapers are right about that says that a sign that the regime doesn't think that the

Is have a great day love power or is it a sign that there's more I think it's a sign that the regime believes that newspapers are as influential as television, so it's allowed a bit more freedom that you will see criticism of radomir Putin but you will see discussion a problem for example the petrol shortage.

That's that's happening right now in various Russian Regent that's written about almost on a daily basis, so am I read the newspapers and watch Russian state television we talk to Russian officials.

We talk to people on the streets based on all the information that we got we can reach conclusions about what we things happen and your approach to protecting sources and in Russia and how you do that.

Well.

You have to be very careful about it my colleagues.

Talk to people in Russia pretty much my daily basis.

Very careful about protecting as always but interesting I was just thinking of people saying that now.

We've had a couple of really good pieces on the other side of the petrol shortage which is the degree to which the ukrainians and

Reheating refineries in Russia and we combined open-source intelligence with our sources inside Ukraine to give a really detailed picture exactly what they are hitting and how and where and it sort of those two things together the complete picture and I'd like to ask you both this question really which is what do you Steve inside the country zanni and your team knowing it well, what do the media Mrs or Miss represents in Russian reporter? I mean obviously missing nothing because you're so good.

So good are there you think that there's a lack of understanding that is getting wider.

I think it's very easy and perhaps inevitable after what happened the last three and a half years and full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine very easy to reach a conclusion that all Russian support the disabled special operations all Russians support Putin and I think being there on the ground shows.

it's not the case it shows new ones and you have to it's not black and white yeah, there's a whole range of reasons why Russians don't come onto the streets to protest against the Ukraine and I think you have to before you dismiss the whole country as being pro-war and pro Vladimir Putin you have to go to go to all the reasons actually why there's no one's in Russian that you you lose the texture the only on and reporting with with no restrictions can give you that I remember listen to you soon after you first got to Russia I used to work on Russia years ago and we'll travel around and the sense that you could just go anywhere and talk to anybody and do anything and I suspect you can't even do that very easily now and I said that limits just the texture of the picture that anyone can get and

Means that we have probably a we don't have that we have a stalker picture than reality is and that's unfortunate particularly when it's the regime of we got there now.

Yeah, I totally agree one more thing only on one occasion over the last 3 1/2 years has shown hostility towards me that was in a wool shop in belgirate went to the wool shop to film and as soon as they found out that we were written.

It was why has NATO attack Russia why does NATO Russia repeating the narrative that I hear on on Russian state television most of the interactions we have with with Russians on the street are positive people coming up to us people glad that we still there perhaps.

They don't agree with everything.

We're saying but I think that shows me that actually so many Russian still associations.

Europe with the West and feel that their part of the West even though officially the country is kind of pivoting to the east actually in Moscow to st.

Petersburg in the big cities Russian still feel you and actually hope that this war will end some point and that somehow Russia will once again be part about the European family and given the situation for foreign journalists in Russia how do you see the future of foreign Correspondents born coverage from the country? I think it's important to continue to report from the country Russia isn't going anywhere Russia's the biggest country in the world spend 2 continents 11 time zones and the universe part of the tension between Russia and Russia isn't going anywhere we have to understand what Russians are thinking of the authorities are thinking what the Russian people are thinking and that's why I hope that continues and the last thing I said bye.

Yes, it's stressful reporting from Russia

But it's independent Russian journalists Russian citizens, who might criticise the authorities that are really on the front line.

They are putting themselves in huge danger and only this week.

We saw a case of that with TV Ryan the Independent Russian TV channel which was forced into exile three other journalists were added to the terrorist and extremist back in Russia so I don't see myself on the front line as much as Russian journalist and then it is in the last minute or so that we've got left on this topic.

I don't go away without speaking a little bit more about Ukraine you've been to key if you've interview president zelensky in the past you frequently The Economist report from the war do you think Media interest is slipping over 3 years old? Do you think we're less interested then we were?

I think the honest answer to bed.

Yes of course someone it's hard to sustain the level of complete Focus that was there at the very beginning but that said I am presently surprised that how much interest there still is how much people are still focused on in for me.

This is one of the if not the most important issues facing Europe right now it it was a terrific invasion.

It will shape not just the future of Ukraine at the future of Europe as you say I've been there 3 years three times since since the Invasion I used to live in Kiev 3-day.

Go so it is an issue Close to Me by hard.

I think it's also enormous importance of keeping the future of warfare all kinds of things and I guess I would end by saying that yes every story has a Half-Life this is there is still interested are I hope it doesn't rain because it really matters it matters for all of us, what happens in that war what happens with you praying and

Sunday to be able to go and see Steven in in Russia and in the same way that have been able to go all over Ukraine talk to anybody.

I would like to be able to do that to you sometime soon bye your dinner celebration when you when you go and collect your reward.

It's very very well deserved.

Thank you Google thank you now.

We are going to discuss the efforts and practicalities of undercover reporter two of the best in the business after the BBC exposed misogyny and racism that I'd use inside a London police station in a recent Panorama documentary that first hear a clip of the programme the cover in the police this excerpt films officers bragging about the use of force we don't know if the office is actually hurt people or if it was just privada.

I love you.

Give me a break your finger the other two fingers and you really hard.

It's not too well.

That is Panorama undercover in the police.

It was a huge story last I'm joining now by the editor of Panorama can white men and executive producer of the documentary Leo telling hello to thank you so much for coming and just tell us how this story can we've seen what you found the take us back to the beginning.

Give me the Beginning really is the Louise Casey report which found that there was problems with institutional racism misogyny homophobia and I was in 2023 in the wake of the rape and Sarah Everard and promises of change were made not unsurprisingly because the because Louie's cases findings were so uncompromising.

We were speaking to whistleblowers who said that these problems were continuing and in order to be able to guess that and I suppose get behind the sort of promises of change and the assurances of change that's when we think about the possibility of using undercover techniques to be a see what's really happening to get on the ground because I often think that sometimes audiences have a difficulty sometimes leaving what you might say unless they can sit with us and of course undercover filming gives you the capacity to be able to do that in some circumstances, but Leah what you had whistleblowers is that right from very early days, they didn't want to appear on the programme they feared for their careers and you know the various reasons why they wouldn't want to go on a program.

So what they're telling you is fascinating and interesting and

No match in the public interest to get out there somehow but you're not able to do it just through a conventional interview you know so the documentary format television and say that about their colleagues, but I know I mean I know from personal experience that undercover filming there a lot of hoops you have to jump through in order to be able to do it so Panorama how does it work how's permission to is it true the editorial policy department? How do you what are the stages that you have to go through in order to be able to put an undercover reporter in somewhere your assessing various people involved in the assassination of the evidence but your Gathering in the evidence primer facie evidence first.

I evidence of wrongdoing and that can be from Leo says it could be a Whistleblower it could be an alleged victim of a crime.

It could be previous reports.

So you put together the moment.

Primer facie evidence of wrongdoing and then you are balancing back against the privacy of the intrusion involved in Covert filming and there's always a balanced the public interest and exposing the wrongdoing vs.

The potential intrusion and obviously when making judgements all of the time our managers have an assessment in that legal advice editorial policy, so we we we we talk about it.

We review it and then we make decisions based on that of course.

We'll keep that under review if we have the permission to you.

Tell me techniques.

We keep that under review throughout the course of the project and a quarter bottles in a 7-month.

Yes, yes and then and then of course it's reviewed again when you're thinking about you know when it comes to broadcast.

What are you broadcasting? How are you broadcasting? Who are you identifying who are you not identifying all of those sort of all of those sorts of issues that program.

It was all this very shocking material presumably the undercover reporter that he had formed a bond with these officers.

Did he feel did he worry that feeling that you know he's trying a bonding somewhere it must be quite a difficult emotional journey for him.

Yeah, that's something.

We always talk about with people before hand before they go in we know you know we know this is it's a common thing because they will always be people still doing a good job.

Who do my job to the best of their abilities and you'll be secretly filming them may be inadvertently or you'll have to know you.

Have you have to develop relationships and friendships with your coworkers cos that's just what it's like going to work and then at some point.

You know you start thinking.

What's the impact on the station as a whole and you might just feel there is a really decent people there who would doing it absolute best so it's something.

We talk about something we prepare people for him.

He to take that long, he was good.

He was good recommended someone that that that we indirectly new so it was a cut and it had to be someone that hasn't worked in journalism before because they have to be able to get through police vetting so they have not been vs.

Journalist, but they had to be able to kind of you.

No work within the bounds of what we wanted them to work and understand some of the principles that we work by an all those kind of things and then the process where the quite a big turnover of staff so it's quite good for us in the sense that jobs were readily available.

They were recruiting on a regular cycle because there's quite a lot of attrition in that job because it's difficult you know it's difficult job and it's not pretty well paid so he was able to apply and after 7 weeks training he was there at Charing Cross

Broadcast you took this decision to identify someone because of some of them their faces are covered but you know they made an honest but others you name just talking through that decisions that must be quite Karen mechanics.

It's all part of the Continuum of the of the assessing the wrongdoing and thinking about the wrong doing that you are seeing the scale of that wrongdoing and balancing that against the public interest and you know if you seen the documentary you will have seen that some of the behaviour is pretty egregious and the Metropolitan commissioner agrees with that so some of those decisions are sort of reasonably straightforward then you're thinking about you know people who may have been in custody you know how your concealing their identities the other officers as Leo said who are going about their duties in a good and professional manner.

Concealing their identities.

Do you think about all of these things is quite patchwork really do you measure the police response? I should say the metropolitan police commissioner smart really said the behaviour outline and BBC Panorama with disgraceful and also take an immediate and unprecedented action to investigate 8 offices and one staff member have been suspended and another two officers have been removed from Frontline duties and all the names of us as I know you wrote to the individual officers identified and they haven't responded just before we end it.

What was the impact been of it so far and where does the story go next? I think it has had a significant impact.

I think largely because they're you know.

There was as well as we talked about the Louise Louise Casey report and then there was the iopc investigation into Charing Cross itself uncovered this to the terrible behaviour going on with WhatsApp groups and messages, so I think it was pretty shocking that despite the promises for Change

We were still saying this sort of Culture for want of a better word of racism and misogyny what happens next is to some extent to the metropolitan police commissioner.

I mean I know you know he is said that he is very determined to try and continue to turn this around well editor Leo telling executive producer your film is obviously on the BBC iPlayer under the Panorama band brand even thank you both for coming in and and and it is definitely worth a watch although.

It is saving as well.

Thanks very much.

Thank you.

Thank you now.

We've had the four-part Emmy award-winning documentary about David Beckham now Victoria Beckham has her own netflix.doc also produced by her husband's production company studio 99 and out tomorrow.

Here is a favour.

Say I do to be shock I have never Forgotten where I come from and what might brand Beckham leave with this new show and how is editorial independence and go she ate in the growing phenomenon of pr.

Documentaries.

I am joined by fasana badwell founder of public relations company Curzon yeah, hello hello.

Thank you for having me it's great that you're here.

We have seen it is feeling to me like anyway.

I'm a bit jaded and we seem so many of these cells produce documentaries and co-production thinking Harry and Meghan the Beyonce one of course the David Beckham when I mention in this particular circumstances.

What do you think brand Beckham ABR brand aren't they is trying to achieve?

This documentary what they want to get out of it.

I think you get an inkling of the Strategic Thinking behind the documentary in terms of the timing so they dropped the trailers couple weeks ago fashion month September haven't had fashion brand as we speak there's a pop-up at Selfridges and so there's definitely commercial play and I think if you think about the brand trajectory of Victoria Beckham's fashion does loss-making for a number of years and it turned a corner when they went into bewsey, but also it happened when they went into Busey all the sudden she had to attract a mass market because a lot of people can't afford £2,000 jacket or skirt and so you don't have to go and do the mass a play but now with everyone can buy a bit of Victoria Beckham with an eyeliner for instance and so actually having a documentary in Netflix with a mass appeal mass of exposure really hard to a commercial perspective so definitely is a commercial play this also have.

She's had a long career and this also a little bit of a danger to herbrand where she could be perceived as the archetypes of Nightmare mother-in-law is rumblings in Glossop media about that's if you want to set her story and it's also been a long trajectory of narrative against her as herbrand not being profitable and now obviously want to set the record straight as well and that all makes perfect sense with the documentary because what you are leading to of the recent tabloid stories that you know the eldest son Brooklyn and his wife have fallen out with the family.

Do you think that this is an attempt to take back control of that narrative because I mean I'd be surprised if there's a mention of in This documentary.

I don't know what you think.

Would it be good for her brand to talk about this all bad, but it's about to die and I think that if you look at the trailer.

I really do.

Suggest listeners take a look at their trailer on YouTube and what she's done chist framed with all of the character assassination attacks, she's had over the years about the smile and say she has really bought those sort of vulnerabilities front-and-center to then have a laugh about it to make them more accessible, so it's a very short of stage 4 mobility not a puppy's like you had Michelle Michelle known that had a negative back large.

This is going to put front-and-center have failed to use her peers and adults coward.

What does have repetitive narratives are negative confront bring it in and then flip it on his head and so that's a really smart way of approaching it and I wondered about this growing phenomenon of the sea meets of authorised best documentaries off and produced by people with a vested interest for a close relationship to the subject even sometimes being paid by them.

Do we know anything about the level of editorial independence and series Like These

David Beckham said he had no say in what was in his documentary in the director said you know he only agreed to do it on the condition that you have The Final Cut I think it depends on a case-by-case basis is the actual protagonist themselves do not have a say then don't tell me the lawyers on all over his no piazza all over and have been well briefed and turns up how to protect the Brand and how to present the brand as a PR person would I want Panorama sniffing around my clients will have a Channel 4 know where it's a cold shower for a different colour documentary Netflix documentary with control my god.

It's like a warm bathroom.

Keep it safe for to rain.

It's reputation management.

It isn't journalism.

Do you think in the end? We are never going to see outside properly outside documentary.com any access to these kind of celebrities in the future because why would they if they can do her a softer piece if you lie.

I think it depends depends whether or not we make an effort as a society to really try.

Ok people about me and electricity because my daughter is going to watch the documentary and does she know the difference between the journalist rigour.

That's employed at the BBC the channel for Mother's Day the Difference and a lot of people outside of Islington have no idea of what the difference is probably people inside Islington as well to be there, but yes you're right.

We need we need to make sure that's clearing and we tried to do that on the media show obviously that well.

Thank you so much for going on the founder of public relations company Curzon PR that is it unfortunately for this week because we keep talking about it.

Anybody is interested the Victoria Beckham documentary Lions on Netflix tomorrow as I understand it.

I will certainly be watching.

I'm sure they will have a look too but that's it from us.

Thank you so much for your company goodbye.

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